Jake Tapper Fact-Checked Kristi Noem in Real Time (w/ Jack Cocchiarella)

Summary

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Bulwark Takes – "Jake Tapper Fact-Checked Kristi Noem in Real Time" (w/ Jack Cocchiarella)

Date: January 12, 2026
Host: Jack Cocchiarella
Guest: Tim Miller
Main Topic: The fallout from Kristi Noem’s contentious responses to Jake Tapper and Fox News regarding the ICE shooting of Renee Good, media coverage, and broader implications for law enforcement accountability and political rhetoric.

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Episode Overview

This episode dissects South Dakota Governor and Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem’s appearance with Jake Tapper, where she defended an ICE agent’s fatal shooting of protester Renee Good. Jack Cocchiarella and Tim Miller unpack Noem’s reactions, factually disputed justifications, and the right-wing media response. They reflect on the implications for policing, the political strategy on the right, and what Democrats should do in response.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kristi Noem's Smirking and Demeanor During Tapper Interview

• [01:00-03:26]
  • Jack remarks on Noem’s "smarminess" and inappropriate smirking while discussing a woman’s death.
    • "There were some very inappropriately timed smirking from Kristi Noem, talking about a woman being murdered in cold blood." – Jack Cocchiarella [01:39]
  • Tim is astounded by the lack of humanity: "There’s no sense of even… regret. Not that it would make it any better… but there’s no sense of even..." – Tim Miller [02:49]

2. Breakdown of the Shooting, Video Evidence, and the Government's Narrative

• [03:26-07:47]
  • The video evidence contradicted the administration’s claims that the ICE agent was in danger.
  • Tim recounts his initial disbelief at the official version:
    • "There's no reasonable way you could spin this as this man being fearful for his life." – Tim Miller [03:40]
    • "Why would they put it out and include the part where he calls her a fucking bitch?" – Tim Miller [04:35]
  • Discussion about the administration and media (Jesse Watters) characterizing the victim, Renee Good, as dangerous primarily based on her identity as a poet/activist.

3. Jake Tapper’s On-Air Fact-Check of Kristi Noem

• [05:43-07:47]
  • Jake Tapper directly confronts Noem with the falsehood that Good tried to "ram" officers:
    • Tapper: "That's not what happened. We all saw what happened." – [06:53]
    • Noem doubles down: "It absolutely is." – [07:14]
  • Argument centers on the administration’s rapid accusation of "domestic terrorism" before any investigation.
  • Miller: "The penalty for that [impeding ICE] still isn't execution, right? And that's something these guys just will not deal with." – Tim Miller [09:00]

4. Law Enforcement Accountability, Escalation, and Political Implications

• [08:07-12:03]
  • The hosts highlight the absurdity of law enforcement’s overreaction:
    • "If you're that scared... you're in the wrong line of work." – Tim Miller [11:24]
    • Critique of right-wing figures jumping to defend or excuse excessive force.

5. Kristi Noem's Fox Appearance and the New "Vehicle as a Weapon" Rhetoric

• [15:51-17:26]
  • Noem claims "over 100 vehicle rammings" recently, using this to justify harsh law enforcement response. [16:03]
  • Jack mocks the idea of "training roadblock aids" as the new liberal menace and notes that the loudest complaints come from being honked at by middle-aged women:
    • "I really do believe that the biggest problems these guys have are just the fact that they don't like middle-aged women honking at them and that that is driving our policy and that is leading to people getting shot." – Jack Cocchiarella [17:05]

6. Pattern of Police "Justification" and Historical Context

• [17:26-19:21]
  • Tim references a 2014 LA Times story of Border Patrol agents stepping in front of cars to justify shootings, suggesting the tactic is not new and the rhetoric is simply the latest pretext.
  • "Now she’s basically laying the predicate for that." – Tim Miller [19:21]

7. Political Strategy: Why the Right Pushes These Narratives

• [13:03-14:49]
  • Noem and conservative media frame the victim as a dangerous "foe" to energize their base, a pattern reminiscent of Trumpism.
  • Tim: "They continue to kind of look for people they can blame for stuff because that’s really their bread and butter..." [13:40]

8. Democratic Response: Abolish ICE or Reform?

• [20:31-22:47]
  • Discussion on the left’s messaging: Should Democrats call to abolish ICE or push for targeted reforms?
    • Tim cautions against rigid slogans but supports aggressive reform and authentic communication: "I think candidates should think about ways where they feel comfortable talking about it. I’m for abolishing ICE. That’s fine with me…" – Tim Miller [20:31]
    • Jacob Frey (Minneapolis Mayor) cited as a good example of balancing police reform with the case for having some law enforcement presence.

9. Broader Critique of the Surveillance/Police State

• [15:22-15:46]
  • Jack suggests Democrats connect policing overreach to concerns about surveillance and citizens’ rights for broader appeal:
    • "If you’re a Democrat…connect everything ICE does to, you know, Larry Ellison saying that he wants citizens on their best behavior." – Jack Cocchiarella [15:22]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Police Use of Force:

  • "The penalty for that still isn’t execution." – Tim Miller [09:00]

• On Political Hypocrisy:

  • "Could you be more pathetic that you are begging...you want absolute immunity for people to gun you down for, I guess, existing in your car, because that’s the new argument." – Jack Cocchiarella [10:54]

• On Democratic Strategy:

  • "I think Democrats should be extremely aggressive on this...you want to make that case to people in a way that people understand that this doesn't mean that you’re for open borders or that you’re not for arresting criminal immigrants..." – Tim Miller [20:31]

• On the State of Political Rhetoric:

  • "They continue to kind of look for people they can blame for stuff because that's really their bread and butter." – Tim Miller [13:40]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00-03:26] – Noem’s demeanor during Tapper interview; lack of empathy.
• [05:43-07:47] – Tapper’s real-time fact check; dispute over the shooting narrative.
• [09:00] – Discussion of due process and law enforcement overreach.
• [13:03-14:49] – The right’s political strategy: using conflict to energize their base.
• [15:22-15:46] – Advice to Democrats: tie ICE abuses to surveillance state concerns.
• [15:51-17:26] – Noem’s Fox appearance; "vehicle as a weapon" rhetoric.
• [17:26-19:21] – Pattern of police justifications; historical context.
• [20:31-22:47] – How Democrats should message reform versus abolition.

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Conclusion

The episode delivers a thorough media critique of Kristi Noem's justifications following the ICE shooting and explores the political utility of such events for the right. Jack and Tim advocate for Democratic messaging that balances demands for accountability and reform with a pragmatic approach to public safety, while never losing sight of the human cost of state violence.

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Transcript

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[B]

Hey, y', all, it's Jack Cottrella with the bull work. Happy to be joined by Tim Miller, unhappy to be watching. Somehow the most disgusting version of Kristi Noem. I didn't know that you could step it up a level, but the smarminess is up. Tim, were you aware that you could turn that shit up to 11?

[C]

Well, I'm seeing this live with you right now. I've seen a couple of these clips on social media. I love Jake Tapper, but, you know, it's Sunday morning. We all need some peace. We all need some peace in our life. You know, I try to usually catch up to things in the evening on Sundays, so I'm going in clean right now. And I take at your word that she is going to sink to a new low. I do think that's kind of challenging since she murdered her dog and then bragged about it and then lied about it.

[B]

It's a tough bar to clear. But there were some, if you watch very carefully, which unfortunately we have to, there were some very inappropriate timed smirking from Kristi Noem, talking about a woman being murdered in cold blood. But I think the first clip kind of sets the tone for the. The feelings that she brought to this interview with Jake Tapper, who gave some pretty good pushback on Noam and. But when she was asked about whether or not Jonathan Ross was disgracing a woman after he stole her Life. She didn't have much to say, but she gave some pretty gross looks.

[C]

Let's check it out.

[D]

Is that Agent Ross's voice calling Renee Good a fucking bitch?

[E]

I can't determine which one it is, but it could be.

[C]

Sir, sorry. There is that Kristi Noem in the interview. There Is that Jake with Kristi Noem? It's hard to tell. She's updating her face monthly. And last I saw her, she was like, under a big kind of Indiana Jones style hat. I couldn't see her face, so I just. Is that. Is that the Secretary of Homeland Security? There?

[B]

It is. I think there's some new lip work done.

[C]

Okay, can we see it again then? I'm sorry. I was caught off guard. I couldn't see her face. Can we watch it one more time?

[D]

Is that Agent Ross's voice calling Renee Good a fucking bitch?

[E]

I can't determine which one it is, but it could be.

[C]

Sir, she does seem like she's pushing back a smirk there. As you said, Jack, she does seem as she's pushing back a smirk. And again, it's just like there's no humanity in the administration. Not that it would make it any better. I mean, that they murdered a woman. But there's no sense of even. I'm trying to think of, like, what you would say in that situation that would, you know, even if you wanted to be defensive of the choice that. That Jonathan Ross made in that moment, you could say, look, this obviously, this is very regrettable, highly stressful moment. We do not condone that kind of rhetoric. But you know what I mean, like, you could do something like that, but that. But no, she doesn't even give you that. She's kind of like, kind of holds back a little smirk.

[B]

Well, I think it's especially because I think they saw this as a win. I know we talked about this, being so stunned that it was like their idea when we talked about this. What did you think it was AI when you first saw the clip from his perspective?

[C]

Well, I didn't think it was AI, but I just wanted to make sure it wasn't AI, because to me it was so. I mean, it was the first video from the start. I thought this was ridiculous, obviously. But this video, to me, I thought just showed so clearly that there's no reasonable way that you could spin this as this man being fearful for his life. And when you watch the video, because in that longer video, you see him first talk to Renee Good. And she's in good spirits. She's kind of Teasing him cheerily, you know, and then she. He comes back around. And then when you see the first person video, you know, which we now know is him holding it in his hand, there's no way to be scared. I mean, you know, I've been in more dangerous situations in a Walmart parking lot with somebody kind of backing up a little too fast. And so, you know, before I posted that video you referenced where I was ranting about this, I was just like, I just wanted to make sure that it was real. Like, why would they put this out? And then why would they put it out and include the part where he calls her a fucking bitch?

[B]

Well, I think that's where the smirk comes from is it's very notable to me that the first couple of words that Jesse Watters had to say were what she had she. Her pronouns in her bio. She was an alleged poet. That's how they think they can get out of this, is that they do believe they can create enough, oh, this was a crazy lady to do it. And what was so interesting to me in the next clip we're going to watch as part of Kristi Newham's supposed justification is she talked about how long Renee Good had been protesting, as if that raised the stakes, that her existing in her car, as Noam goes on to say for hours on end, makes it seem like she's more of a threat. I would say the opposite.

[C]

Right.

[B]

If an officer is seeing someone just standing, sitting in a car peacefully, I think that de escalates the situation, as we already saw in the clip. But it was very weird. Kind of the justification that Kristi Noem continues to use, especially when she gets pushed back from Tapper in this clip that we're going to check out for immediately jumping to the conclusion of domestic terrorism. It was very weird to me what she had to say here.

[D]

You've also been criticized for your comments. The shooting, we should note, was Wednesday at 10:37am Eastern. Just over two hours later, the Department of Homeland Security put out a statement definitively asserting what had happened, defending the ICE agent, accusing Renee Good of domestic terrorism. That's a characterization that you reiterated in a press conference half an hour later. Now, Republican Senator Thom Tillis said, quote, it was very unusual to have a senior law enforcement official to draw a conclusion about an event where the scene was still being processed. Generally speaking, law enforcement would recognize that a life was lost, that families are changed forever. The shooter's life will change forever. We're collecting video. We're trying to assess the situation why did you not wait for an investigation before making your comments?

[E]

Oh, well, everything that I've said has been proven to be factual. The truth. This administration wants to operate in transparency. I have the responsibility as the Secretary of Homeland Security to know this information as soon as possible. Had just been in Minneapolis the day before, had already had conversations with officers on the ground supervisors and knew the facts and decided that the department and the people of this country deserve to know the truth of the situation of what had unfolded in Minneapolis.

[D]

With all due respect, Secretary, the first thing you said was, quote, what happened was our ICE officers were out in an enforcement action. They got stuck in the snow because of the adverse weather that is in Minneapolis. They were attempting to push out their vehicle, and a woman attacked them and those surrounding them and attempted to run them over and rammed them with her vehicle. That's not what happened. We all saw what happened.

[E]

It absolutely is.

[C]

What? Yes, it is.

[E]

Those officers had been out in enforcement action. A vehicle had been stuck. They had come to help get that vehicle out. That's when this individual started blocking traffic for minutes and minutes.

[D]

You said that the woman attacked them and surrounded them and attempted to run them over and ram them, blocked the.

[E]

Road for a long time and was yelling for a long time and impeding a federal law enforcement investigation. That's what you need to focus on, Jake, is they were breaking the law by impeding and obstructing a law enforcement operation. They were breaking the law already.

[B]

So then she goes on to say that there was, like, some secret extra footage that CNN hadn't played enough. And I find that just so weird. So the officers had engaged with someone sitting peacefully for hours on end, and then all of a sudden, she became a domestic maniac. Terror. I don't get that as the justification. There is none, but I don't get that.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, the gall about how when she gave the first statement, any reasonable person listens to this and pictures in their head, like, officers, ICE agents with their unmarked vehicle stuck on the side of the road in Minnesota, and people in the back pushing the car. And then a crazed domestic terrorist while they're out there pushing their car, driving up to them and trying to ram into them. That was how she explained what happened, which is, obviously it didn't happen. I mean, it's just absurd lying. Luckily, you know, kind of the filler, like, gives you. You know, you don't reveal kind of your true face as you do a lot of times, which is kind of a problem for me. Like, you know, people See what I really think on my face. But so it's a benefit for her. And that in that kind of brazen lie. The thing that I think is most relevant to talk about here, because, like, we all know they're liars, is basically the crux of their argument, as you point out in the lead in, is that this woman was a criminal. She's committing a crime. And I want to actually take them at their word on that. I don't exactly know what Renee Good and all them were like, maybe they were impeding federal agents. Maybe that's good trouble. But sometimes you get arrested for good trouble. And let's say that she was following them around for hours before that and that her car was in the road intentionally impeding them. The penalty for that still isn't execution, right? And that is something that these guys just will not deal with and will not accept. It's like, okay, we deal with this all the time. There's a huge range, range of punishments for various crimes. You know, that is short of shooting them three times in the face, right? Like, that's not how we do things in a free country. Like, she has an opportunity to defend herself in a court of law. You know, you can. You indict her, you arrest her. Like, there are plenty of things that you could do. They didn't do any of those things. They. They ran up to her car, they tried to pull her out aggressively, and then when she tried to get away from that, they executed her. Like, that's what happened. That is not defensible. Even if you are of the belief that she was breaking the law and that what she did was wrong.

[B]

The most, maybe most outrageous. It's hard to pick a most outrageous line from Kristi Noem. I felt was the. Oh, I was in Minneapolis the day before. Right. Weird thing to say. So I was there before. That's how I know the feeling on the ground of these scared little ICE agents. And oh, one had previously been involved in a scuffle. So he was a little hair trigger and ready to fire on anyone.

[C]

It is important just to point out on that point that. That these people are such beta. Was this fucking.

[B]

These fucking guys, these past him. Sorry to shit on past him, but they're just such, like such submissive little, little cuck boys.

[C]

Like, why is that shooting past him? How do you know that's not present time? You never know what happened.

[B]

No, but these fucking conservative guys willing to jump so quickly to defend the fucking cops and their bosses. Like, could you be more pathetic that you are begging. Tread on that. You want absolute immunity for people to gun you down for, I guess, existing in your car, because that's the new argument, that every car in America is now a deadly weapon. So ICE can come and just pop some open in you because you're sitting and existing. I don't know why they are demanding that this be the state that we exist in, but that's what they want.

[C]

To go the defensive as though he had, you know, he'd gotten run over before. I'm like, okay, I'm sympathetic to that, but, like, you can't be a scaredy cat. You can't just be a little scaredy cat. That's like, oh, the Honda pilot's coming at me. I got to shoot. Like, you're in the wrong line of work. Okay? If you're, like, if you're that scared in that moment, because you just can't watch that video and think, oh, this was a moment that was so frightening and so scary that I had no choice but to take out my weapon and fire three bullets while I'm also holding my phone. Like. Like, it's. It's insane. They're. They're like officers, ICE agents, regular police officers. Good police officers get in more dangerous situations than that every day all over the country. And they don't kill people.

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[B]

Think that this I don't know the Christina Owen schtick plays. I know she sees herself as a national figure, which is pretty funny. I don't know how many, you know, like Landman slash Yellowstone reenactments of riding around on horses is going to give her any boost in the polls? What part of this do you think they see playing with just regular people? I don't know. There's been a little bit of the mockery that I've seen in the conservative circles that unfortunately I have to pay attention to, saying, like, this is the. I am George Floyd. I am Renee Goode. Liberals losing their mind over a criminal again, how they want to frame her. Do you think their expectation is that the protest and that the left losing their mind is how they went on this, or do you think they.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's that. And it's finding a new foe. It's tough to be like, Trump is very good, all these guys, and Noam isn't really very good at any time. I don't really see her as a national figure in the future, but who knows? The future is unknowable. But they're all at their best when they're going after people, right? Like, Trump is very good at belittling people, right? When they have a foe, he's good at blaming people for other stuff, right? When you get in charge, there is a problem, right? When you control all of Washington is you can't just. You can't just blame everything on people and talk about how they're suckers and losers and how they're stupid. And we need really smart people, like the reality TV show hosts to take over, right? Like, that shtick doesn't work because you're in charge. And so I do think that they continue to kind of look for people they can blame for stuff because that's really their bread and butter, you know, on the economy. It was Jerome Powell for a while. You know, it's the Somalis a couple weeks ago, you know, now it's whatever. The lesbian Honda pilot driving the poets.

[B]

Of America, the most violent of them all, I think.

[C]

Yeah, I think that's. I think that's the strategy.

[B]

Do you think that. Do you see that working, though, long term, is this. I don't know.

[C]

I mean, I think that they're in a better situation today, just politically, right? Like, we're just talking just pure politics. I think they feel like they're in better political place right now than they were two weeks ago. They didn't have anything to talk about. They were really treading water, you know, are taking on water rather, you know, with Epstein, they didn't have anything. Economy getting worse, you know, Trump being obsessed with Getting trophies. They didn't have a lot to talk about. At least now they like have a foe. You watch this stuff, you watch Fox and stuff. They've got more material now and they also got Venezuela. Will it work long term? I'm skeptical.

[B]

I think this is the time if you would ever want to, to start talking about the surveillance state, the Palantir state. Just start saying words that kind of register with the young man. Don't look at my phone and data class of people who are pretty apolitical. That seems like a good time to jump on that. If you're a Democrat and connect everything ICE does to, you know, Larry Ellison saying that he wants citizens on their best behavior.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

That kind of be my advice for Democrats right now.

[C]

I'm with you on that. What else we got? We have more Kristi Noem.

[B]

Well, we do have more Kristi Noem. We have her on Fox. And this is a little word of warning for anyone who's going to be in their car in the future because Kristi Noam now has a, has a different view of you if you were in a very big scary vehicle.

[E]

These vehicle rammings, we've had over 100 of them in recent weeks where people are using their vehicles as deadly weapons and attacking our officers and training them on how to block streets. And I'll remind everybody that if you get involved and impede a law enforcement operation, you are breaking the law. That is a crime. And at that point in time, that individual needs to be arrested and taken in and charged and convicted for what they're doing to stop justice in the United States.

[B]

Okay, so, so one, one sec. We're just one. Training. The training element of this is pretty hysterical. So we're trading training roadblock aids. Like that's what's happening in liberal radical America. The second thing is I can't imagine what would impede the flow of traffic more than every ICE agent in America being able to just rip people out of their cars. And this I think probably especially comes from, I don't know, did you see the video of the woman just like holding down her horn and the ICE agent saying, like, if you keep doing that, it's going to be a very bad day for you.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think this is a bottom up operation right now. I don't know where Kristi Noem gets her ideas, if they're from Corey Lewandowski after, you know, or if it's just from like the loudest complainers. But I really do believe that the biggest problems that these guys have are just the fact that they don't like middle aged women honking at them and that that is driving our policy and that that is leading to people getting shot.

[C]

I can't get inside Jonathan Norris head, but obviously he was very triggered by both the victim who he killed and also the other woman, I guess was her partner that was calling him big boy or whatever right before he shot her. So and I think obviously that is in these guys psyche. I don't think you need to be a professional psychologist to to note that. And just two other things I want to say about that clip with Kristi Noem and how they want to deal with cars as deadly weapons. Now the first thing is she says clearly on that Fox what they want to do with people that want to impede with their car and that's arrest, take in charge. And by the way, I would be just fine with that if that's what they had. If they had done that with Renee Goode, we would not be here. We'd not be here right now. They could have arrested her, taken and charged her. They could have, they had her license plate. If she drove away, they could have gone to her house with a warrant and arrested her, taken in and charged her. Nobody would be talking about this right now. That'd be a totally appropriate thing to do. She could defend herself in court. I would be on her side of that. But it would be a completely reasonable in a free society. That's not what they did. They shot her three times in the head. The other thing just with these moving vehicles, it's worth monitoring. There's a story going around. I don't know if you saw this. It was from 2014. So this has nothing to do with Trump or Trump Derangement Syndrome? Nothing even to the Republicans. This was Obama was president when this happened. LA Times obtained an internal review of US Border Patrol's use of force policies. And one of the things they found was that Border Patrol agents were intentionally and unnecessarily stepping in front of moving cars to justify using deadly force against vehicle occupants. Like this is something that has happened in the past. I'm not saying that Jonathan Ross did that in that moment. Again, he could just be a scaredy man. He could have been really triggered by the lesbians. He could have done it on purpose. I don't know what's in his brain. But it's just worth noting that that is something that they've done in the past. And now she's basically laying the predicate for that.

[B]

The idea that just all things that exist around you are justifications for you to use whatever force you want is kind of the place that they want to get at here. Like, obviously, like, Vance just wants to muddy the water. Like, what you're saying is right. Like, they want it to be that, okay, I can step in front of a car, or I can, you know, I can have been filmed. I could have felt distressed, and they can just lead you to do whatever you want. But the fact that a supposed law enforcement officer is. Has his glove off in Minneapolis to record a woman recording him, and that any of these things can be triggers to them is. Is absurd to me that you would have your phone out. These guys want to get involved in conflict. Like, that's why they're there. I'm glad that you have the report of it, but, like, do we really need any internal study done to know that, like, guys who have nothing else going on, who are fucking former Oath keepers and proud boys and January 6th, you know, pardoned patriots want to get into scraps with women? That's, like, exactly what they want to do. I don't know with that. Do you think that Democrats should be saying, abolish ice or do you think they should be saying, let's put some tweaks around the edges?

[C]

I don't know. I mean, I think Democrats should be extremely aggressive on this one thing that as an immigrant to the left, somebody who's come to the left, one thing that I do kind of. One thing that kind of annoys me about the left is like, they're very People. Progressives are very obsessed with picking a particular word or phrase and being like, you must say this word or phrase or else you're a witch. Like, or else we must burn you. It's like, not accept. Like, this is the only. And that's. I just. I kind of think it's a silly discourse. Like, I think the candidates should think about ways where they feel comfortable talking about it. I'm for abolishing ice. That's fine with me. I think you don't. You want to make that case to people in a way that people understand that this doesn't mean that you're for open borders or that you're not for arresting criminal immigrants and stuff. And we did this for a year, and ICE just was founded in, like, 2003. It's like the country survived without ICE. It only worries me politically for the Democrats. It's like, you don't just say the other thing, right? Like, you need you do need to say the thing that, like, these guys are thugs. They're masked. We need them to show their faces. You know, we totally reform how our immigration enforcement works. We should not be harassing nonviolent citizens or immigrants, for that matter. Like, we should be doing what Trump said he was going to do, which was focus on violent criminals and getting them out of the country. And what this is. And this is not that. Like, we shouldn't be a fucking papers please country. This isn't easy Germany. Like, that's, like, all that I think is totally appropriate. You know, my only quibble with Democrats on this, sometimes they, like, focus just on the bad parts of what Republicans are doing, rather than, like, on the fact that, like, you know, we do need some law enforcement, too. Jacob Fry was. Jacob Fry was awesome on this yesterday, by the way. On my pod. I don't know if you. If you caught it, people should go listen to it. And he is. And he has been mayor of the city. He was mayor during the whole abolish the police, defund the police thing. He said in a debate for mayor. He was like, I don't think we should defund the police. We need some kind of police force that needs to be reformed. Of course, people said at the time, your career is over. And now he's still mayor. That was, like, seven years ago. And I thought he was really good, talking about police in the city and how they've reformed it and how much more responsible they are and better they are than ICE and how he wants ICE to get the fuck out of the city. I don't think it's that hard to balance that. And I think he's one example. Somebody did a good job.

[B]

Yeah. I think what, you know, the abolish ICE rather than defund the police phrase benefits from is what. What do people think ICE is? Like, do you think the average person knows what. Like, what. What it's. What it stands for?

[C]

It's also kind of complicated, right? Because, like, actually what is, you know, which is why you get politics is sloganeering. And so I'm. I'm open to whatever creative sloganeering people want to come up with that's actually effective. But if we're just being factual, like the CBP is, agents are doing the worst stuff right now. And in this particular case, this guy was ice. But, I mean, here in New Orleans, for example, and all across the country, it's been like little. Little mini Bavino man, a cbp. They've been more aggressive, really, than ice. And so it's kind of like if we ever get out of this nightmare, you're gonna have to reform stuff. Root and branch.

[B]

They got rid of usaid, so I don't know. And that feeds kids, doesn't leave them orphaned. So maybe fucking we should. Maybe we should bring that back. And on that note of let's get out of this fucking hellscape, Tim, thanks for hanging out, man. This is. What a. What a great conversation. I'm sad now.

[C]

Happy to jump in with you. Everybody, I'm sorry that you're watching this. Go out there and, you know, touch snow. Okay, we'll see you guys.