Bulwark Takes – “JVL and Jon Lovett on the Autocracy Problem”
Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Host(s): Tim Miller, JVL (The Bulwark)
Guest: Jon Lovett (Crooked Media)
Date: August 21, 2025
Overview
This episode brings together JVL (Jonathan V. Last from The Bulwark) and Jon Lovett (Crooked Media, Pod Save America) for a candid, searching conversation about America’s “autocracy problem.” Against the backdrop of fresh National Guard deployments to Washington, D.C., in the wake of a new Trump era, the hosts explore how America got here, what’s broken in its political culture, and how (or if) Democrats and civic-minded conservatives can help steer the nation out of an authoritarian spiral. The talk delves into political apathy, habits of restraint in U.S. policing and politics, the passivity of Democratic strategies, meaning and identity in politics, and whether the urge for autocracy among Americans is temporary or lasting.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Setting the Stage: Why Don’t Americans See the Danger?
[00:30 – 03:25]
- JVL frames the conversation as an attempt to make sense of “how we got here,” what’s wrong with America, and how Democrats need to adapt.
- Tim notes the unusual positioning of JVL: a conservative rooted in values and fighting against Trump, offering an outside-in critique that goes beyond the “cosmopolitan online left.”
2. National Guard Deployments: A ‘Trial Run’ of Authoritarianism
[02:56 – 05:18]
- The deployment of red-state National Guards in D.C. is discussed as not about law enforcement but “trial run authoritarian stuff” (JVL).
- JVL proposes a thought experiment: what if blue-state governors sent their Guards to D.C.? He explains it wouldn’t happen, but as a clarifying gesture, it would surface the real, political—not legal—nature of these moves:
“This is all trial run authoritarian stuff… why doesn’t America think this is the biggest fucking deal?”
— JVL [04:23] - Frustration simmering: Why aren’t Americans more outraged?
3. Why Don’t Institutions and People Push Back More?
[05:18 – 13:31]
- Tim and JVL discuss the reluctance of officials (police, city, federal) to directly confront abuses by federal agents—even when laws are broken.
- Tim references a recent (fictionalized) case: ICE agents conducting extrajudicial round-ups in LA, local police unwilling to intervene.
- JVL highlights the dilemma: “You don’t want groups of armed agents of the state shooting at one another. That’s crazy. It’s terrible.” [08:35]
- Tim identifies three core reasons for institutional passivity:
- Ubiquitous guns and the risk of violence.
- Norms and mutual respect—sometimes corrupt—among law enforcement.
- “A decadent and depraved era”—complacency from decades of order, eroding the readiness to challenge breakdowns.
- Americans are not culturally or psychologically ready to see state agency rules break down:
“We’re just not comfortable with removing the patina of civil behavior…”
— Tim Miller [11:10]
4. Should Escalation Ever Be the Answer?
[12:15 – 14:38]
- Both wrestle with whether more aggressive pushback would help.
- JVL admits he is a conservative in temperament—warning that things can always get worse, especially through escalation:
“My whole conservatism is the conservatism of, hey, as bad as things are, things can always be worse.”
— JVL [13:54] - Tim notes, for risk-averse, responsible leaders, “taking risks is risky and people get hurt and it doesn’t always work out. And Trump does it and that is part of his power.” [14:04]
5. Voter Demobilization and the Limits of Outrage
[14:38 – 17:50]
- The hosts lament the lack of broad outrage and engagement, even with obvious threats.
- Tim: “Why don’t people care? Why can’t we seem to wake people up?” [16:21]
- Failures highlighted:
- Voters didn’t “believe” Democrats enough to vote “against Trump” or “for Kamala Harris.”
- Core question: Why do Democratic arguments seem to have “so little purchase” with the electorate?
6. Has America Changed—or Was It Always This Way?
[17:50 – 20:41]
- JVL offers explanations for today’s apathy and susceptibility to authoritarianism:
- Maybe the vaunted civic virtues were always a myth for most Americans.
- “The rise of mobile computing, plus social media, plus Covid… broke their brains temporarily, maybe.” [18:15]
- Post-Cold War decadence: “We’re so fat and happy that everybody assumes… nothing could be that bad.”
- Perhaps a “critical mass” truly wants autocracy for real.
“There are people who talk now totally openly about autocracy… and they don’t even make the pretense… They’re fully post-liberal.”
— JVL [19:35] - “Maybe it’s 15, maybe it’s 35%… It’s big.” [20:21]
7. Is Authoritarianism a Mass Movement or a Fringe?
[20:41 – 24:08]
- Tim: “Trump die-hards are a third. And a minority can inflict its will on the public… but this isn’t post–WWI Germany. This is a movement of the old and a movement from home.” [21:08]
- Describes a passive middle—a majority disconnected from the government—resulting from both decadence and government failure.
- Lovett: Trump excels at “making the worst thing about you the truest thing about you… and we lost a countervailing force to that when Obama gave way to Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden.”
- Posits a way forward: Democrats might win by appealing to other virtues, not just pocketbook issues.
- Example: Despite Trump’s crackdown, Americans are increasingly pro-immigration—a sign “people are complicated and we’ve just failed to tap into the good part.” [23:44]
8. Trump as a Unique American Figure
[24:08 – 26:12]
- Lovett suggests the “dumbest explanation” is that Trump is simply a one-off, sui generis celebrity: “He was a guy with a board game named after him, and he was on TV for a while and he showed up doing this Father Coughlin routine… Maybe it’s just him. Once he goes away… there isn’t anything there.” [24:38]
- There is a precedent for American political chaos followed by spontaneous stabilization—the Age of Acrimony (1890s-1910s). Problems aren’t solved—they’re bulldozed.
9. The Crisis of Meaning and the Democratic Response
[26:12 – 28:08]
- What made Trump so appealing?
- Lovett: Fascism promises “order” and “meaning”—answers to America’s “crisis of meaning.”
- Democrats need to craft a story or purpose that meets this need:
“I think these conversations… are ultimately about how do we answer [the] crisis of meaning that allowed people to grab onto something like this.”
— JVL (Jon Lovett) [27:12]
10. Closing Reflections & Mutual Respect
[28:08 – 29:00]
- Both express appreciation for the “conservatives who stood up for what was right” (Tim), and for bridging the left/right divide thoughtfully.
- A call for building a “big pro-democratic, relentless movement to counter rising authoritarianism.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
“Why doesn’t America think this is the biggest fucking deal that’s happened since like the British sacked D.C.?”
— JVL [04:23] -
“This is all trial run authoritarian stuff.”
— JVL [04:37] -
“Trump’s power play is based on the assumption that he will always, always, always make the first move, be the most aggressive.”
— Tim Miller [07:23] -
“My whole conservatism is always like the conservatism of, hey, as bad as things are, things can always be worse.”
— JVL [13:54] -
“People are complicated and we’ve just failed to tap into the good part. And Trump is so adept at tapping into the bad part.”
— Tim Miller [23:44] -
“Fascism promises order. It promises meaning. Clearly, we have a crisis of meaning of some kind.”
— JVL (Jon Lovett) [27:00]
Timestamps for Important Segments
| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:30 | JVL introduces the show and the episode’s goal | | 02:56 | Discussion of National Guard deployments in D.C. | | 04:23 | “Why doesn’t America think this is the biggest fucking deal…?” | | 07:23 | Trump’s aggression and power plays | | 12:53 | Debating wisdom versus accelerationism | | 16:21 | Why can’t we wake people up? Outrage fatigue | | 19:35 | Open talk of autocracy among conservatives | | 21:08 | Trump diehards as a minority, democracy’s fragile majority | | 23:44 | “People are complicated and we’ve just failed to tap into the good” | | 24:38 | Trump’s unique personal factor | | 27:12 | The “crisis of meaning” in American democracy | | 28:29 | Respect across political divides—call for a pro-democracy movement |
Tone and Language
The episode is marked by frank, frustrated, sometimes darkly humorous reflection. Both JVL and Lovett speak in direct, sometimes exasperated language, confronting uncomfortable truths about American democracy, the possibility of normalization of autocracy, and the failures of both right and left. The banter is collegial but urgent, blending analytic detachment with personal worry.
Conclusion
This episode features two ideologically different but democracy-minded commentators grappling with the country’s slide toward authoritarian tendencies, the limits of institutional and popular resistance, and the failure of existing political narratives to rouse the public. In the face of the “autocracy problem”—whether it is temporary or portentous—JVL and Lovett call for a renewed, positive purpose in politics, grounded in meaning and virtue, as the antidote to rising illiberalism. They end not with easy answers, but a sense of urgency and a respectful, cross-partisan camaraderie that itself is a quiet rebuke to the subject at hand.