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- [00:00]
A
Hey there, guys, it's jvl. And I sat down to talk with my buddy Chris Cilliza yesterday and it was kind of a wide ranging discussion. We talked a lot about Donald Trump and politics and, oh, I don't know what will happen when he dies, which of course won't be for a very long time, hopefully. Please, Jesus, protect this great man. And then we, we went into youth sports and I even got a little Easter egg for you guys about the time I met Heidi Klum. You're gonna love it. Here's the show.
- [00:34]
B
Let's start with the piece you wrote about Trump's death, which I thought was really smart. And again, this happens to me a lot with stuff you write. I get annoyed because I'm like, okay, I knew that that was gonna be a thing that everyone was talking about and this was a smart angle that I didn't think of. And the angle you took was, okay, Donald Trump is not in fact dead, as the Internet seemed to think he might have been at the end of last week, but he will at some point. Now, I want to get more into your piece, but I want to ask you a question first. It's been my operating assumption, and I think this is informed by you, but it's been my operating assumption when people say to me, when is this era of Republican politics or politics more generally going to end? I say, I don't know. But I think the next chance that there will be a real conversation will not be 2028, but will be. Well, it could be, but it will be when Donald Trump expires. Buy that. Or do you think like that even probably doesn't do it?
- [01:38]
A
I think that's too soon. Yeah, yeah.
- [01:41]
B
I mean, I've been thinking about that lately.
- [01:42]
A
I think that Trumpism, and by Trumpism I need, I mean sort of populist nationalism, which at the least flirts with authoritarianism and maybe is outright invested in the idea of authoritarianism or competitive autocracy or pick. Whatever.
- [02:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:04]
A
Whatever you want to be.
- [02:05]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:05]
A
I believe that is where the Republican Party and Republican voters are right now, and it's where they want to be right now. And at some point that will change, right? Because all things change eventually. It could be it changes in two years or 20 years or 200 years, I don't know. But at some point it will change. But that's kind of where they're going to be for the foreseeable future. And at some point, maybe that changes. At some point. I just talked about. Did you See any of the National Conservatism Symposium? The natcon thing?
- [02:39]
B
No.
- [02:40]
A
You know this is like the Yoram Hazoni group.
- [02:42]
B
Yes, I know who it is. I didn't see it, though.
- [02:44]
A
Yeah, so they had a. The guy from. He's a senator from. God. I'll pull this up and just read it to you because it's so fucking insane. The new senator from Missouri? No, the new senator from Schmidt, Eric Schmidt. And I want to just read what he said because it's insane. Our ancestors would be astonished to learn that they were fighting for a proposition. Scare quotes are his. They believed they were forging a nation, a homeland, for themselves and their descendants. America belongs to us and only us. If we disappear, then America, too will cease to exist. I mean, that's like the 14 words, right? I mean, I don't think there's any way to read this and that it's coming from. A guy's last name is. Schmidt is like the cherry on top. Like the guy who belongs from a culture which was very concerned about blood and soil in the fatherland, that he is the one who's like, oh, our answers, your ancestors. Schmitty, give me a fucking break.
- [04:05]
B
Especially because the whole premise of America, I mean, is the melting pot is that it's not well.
- [04:13]
A
Or that they literally use the word proposition. It's in the founding documents, you asshole. Like, you know, come on. But, but my point in all this is just like, I actually think this is where some sizable percentage of the Republican Party is at. Not 80%, maybe not even 50%, but not 2%, you know.
- [04:35]
B
Okay, so I have two questions off of that. The first one is probably smaller. The second one is bigger. And then I do want to talk more about your piece on Trump's debt. Was that sizable percentage there before Donald Trump or not?
- [04:53]
A
So I think that sizable percentage has been present in America in various sizes, like, since. I don't know. I'm not going to say the founding, but it was there for Robert Byrd. It was there for Strom Thurmond. It was there for Charles Lindbergh. Right, right. I mean, it's been. It was there throughout Jim Crow, Wallace, Jennifer George Wallace.
- [05:17]
B
Right?
- [05:17]
A
It's. And it's looked like different things. Right. At some point, it was anti black. At some point it was pro slavery, but it's always the same, which is the idea that this liberty shit is, you know, ha, ha, we all know what we're talking about, right? And I think what is happening, this is the first time that this has captured the mainstream of American political party since Jim Crow. And I think that is meaningful. And the fact that it then, like, captured the White House and is. Is really incredible. And captured the White House twice. Really meaningful.
- [05:58]
B
Yep.
- [05:59]
A
So I don't know. And what do you think is that, like, I don't want to say it's new, but it's.
- [06:03]
B
No, but the thing that you wrote this, and it was not in the Trump death piece. But, but I. I think of this all the time. Because my contention. I think you and I have talked about this. If not, I can very briefly summarize it. My Contention is the 2024 election is by far the more important and telling election visa as compared to 2016. Meaning effectively, in 2016, you could have written off, like, I mean, I don't love what everything Trump says, but, like, I want an outsider. I don't want another Clinton, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But in 2024, it is impossible that you went into the ballot box and you were like, I don't totally know what I'd be getting with Trump. Yeah, I mean, like, like, whatever you think of him, the guy does not try to hide the ball. He's probably not capable of it, but he doesn't. And so the thing that you write and you say this relatively frequently, you said it recently in a piece, I can't remember which one is. A lot of people want this. I mean, that's. That's what I do. Remind people he got 77 million votes not by hiding the ball. I mean, he was pretty clear. And I'm not saying all 77 million people voted for him. You know, expressly voted for him. They didn't want Kamala Harris for whatever reasons, race, gender, they didn't like our policies, whatever. But the point is 77/million people were like, okay, I have a choice between these terrific CNN AirPods that they gave me once and this pen I like. And I'm going with pen, Right? Yeah. So that's what I keep coming back to is it's not like he's fooled. It seems to me on the left, there's this sentiment of, like, he. He's pulled one over on the American public. And I think, like, the truth, as I think you kind of have got me to think about, the truth is actually darker, which is that hasn't really pulled one over on people. He's. People want this. And that's the reality that I think people still have not come to terms with.
- [08:02]
A
So there's a political scientist. I'm forgetting his name and I'm sorry, I'll.
- [08:05]
B
You and I are like the classic examples of the worst.
- [08:08]
A
Yeah.
- [08:09]
B
That I can't remember.
- [08:10]
A
No, I literally. I wrote about this a month ago about this book by this guy who's. Anyway, unimportant. Point is, I was struck because this guy wrote a piece for Politico magazine in, like, summer or. No, not even summer. I think it was, like, early in the Trump campaign, before early 2016, before he captures the nomination. And he is going through a bunch of polling data, and he says the single biggest predictor of whether or not somebody supports Trump is where they are in other questions on the authoritarian spectrum. And there are people who like authoritarianism, and those people all wind up supporting Trump. And he sort of expanded out this thesis after Trump became president and then wrote a book about it. And his ultimate argument is that, like everything else in America, affinity for authoritarianism just sort of existed in the general population, but it was reasonably evenly distributed. Like, there were. There were, you know, Democrats who had authoritarian tendencies, there were Republicans with authoritarian tendencies, et cetera, et cetera. In that Trump has sort of sorted that all out. Right. Trump drew to him all of the people who. Who really were kind of interested in aspects of authoritarianism in same way that he has, like, the cranks. Right. I mean, it used to be once upon a time that there were, you know, there were a bunch of people who were super evangelical homesteader types who lived off the grid, who thought that vaccines were evil. And then there were a bunch of really rich hippies in Marin County.
- [09:49]
B
Totally.
- [09:50]
A
Vaccines were evil. And those people have. That. That thing is all sorted out. Partisan lines now. Like, those people are all Republicans.
- [09:59]
B
Matthew McWilliams, who wrote that?
- [10:01]
A
That.
- [10:01]
B
That is. Does that ring?
- [10:02]
A
Sounds right. Yes. Yes, that is him. Yes. Thank you.
- [10:05]
B
If you do want to check it out. Right.
- [10:06]
A
Thank you.
- [10:07]
B
So it's now just sorted. So they're all over here.
- [10:09]
A
And so the authoritarian vote has consolidated around a single party, and that turns out to be bad in the same way that having the cranks consolidate. It's just polarization. Right. And polarization which has eaten, like, all of American politics over the last 40 years. And, you know, you just pick the issue.
- [10:29]
B
Yeah.
- [10:29]
A
And it's all polarized. Right.
- [10:31]
B
Every poll question is basically the same now.
- [10:33]
A
Yeah.
- [10:34]
B
So when the Republicans in office. Republicans, like, whatever. And they don't. And Democrats. I mean, it's remarkable polling. You know, in some ways, Parliament is less insightful than it ever has been because it.
- [10:44]
A
Well, it's because the party's Sorted out, right.
- [10:46]
B
So unpredictable.
- [10:47]
A
And this is. It used to be we were sorted along, like, largely geographic lines that went away. We. We sorted in sort of ideological lines. Those ideological lines are really now proxy for things like urban, rural or education. Non education. And so.
- [11:04]
B
Yep.
- [11:05]
A
What, Bridget, what can we do about it? See, I have the answer. I just don't tell you guys because I get off on withholding for 99.99.
- [11:13]
B
We'll tell you the answer now.
- [11:15]
A
Believe me, I would tell you if I knew. I spent 10 years of my life thinking about this shit, and if I had the answers, I'd tell you.
- [11:23]
B
Can you just walk me through? I do want to. I found the Trump death piece really insightful and I want. For people who haven't read it, I want them to go read it. But I also want you to walk it through and I want to raise one thing at the front end that I hope you'll explain to me as you explain it that I was like, huh. Your contention seems to be that in a lot of this is based on the timing of when Trump dies, But that Vance, J.D. vance is kind of a fake MAGA, like, not ultimately core. Core. Explain the theory sort of broadly and like the piece and then I may ask a few questions, but go, yeah.
- [12:01]
A
I mean, so ultimately, JD Vance is not populist. Like, populist means you have popular support. JD Vance is a guy who has gone around in his entire life, has been supported by patrons. You know, he finds. He finds a. Right, before Peter Thiel, it was Amy Tra. And after it was Peter Thiel, it was Don Jr. And Tucker. Right. And before, between TWA and Peter Thiel, it was David Frum. And he has never been able to convince large swaths of people to be in the J.D. vance business. You know, he's always been able to be dragged across the line. Not always twice. He was able to be Josh. Josh Mandel. Was that his name?
- [12:53]
B
He beat Josh Mandel in that.
- [12:54]
A
Josh Mandel endorsed him because Trump endorsed him and Peter Thiel gave him a bazillion dollars. And so he was able.
- [13:01]
B
Who is now the senator, but. Yes.
- [13:03]
A
Right. And so he was able to beat this super weirdo who had two cents, he had two nickels to rub together, and he beat J.D. vance anyway. Yeah.
- [13:12]
B
And that race, by the way, with Tim Ryan was.
- [13:17]
A
Reasonably close for Ohio. Yeah. So, you know, I just don't think that Vance. Vance's entire plan to inherit the MAGA movement is based around convincing the authentic populist candidates, which would be Tucker and Don Jr. Like, hey, best friend, you don't need to do that. I think I did this exact same spiel with you last time we saw together.
- [13:42]
B
Guys, I'll do this.
- [13:43]
A
What's up? I do this. You don't want to be president, man. Being president's no fault. You gotta go hunting. You gotta go shoot those things, man. I'm being a president. I'll give you everything you want. Right.
- [13:55]
B
I get that.
- [13:56]
A
And what the thing is, right, that presupposes that Don Jr. Wants, like, policy stuff that JD can deliver. And you saw this thing that was just out in the Wall Street Journal this, this week, that the Trump family has added $5 billion to their holdings.
- [14:19]
B
We don't have to spend a lot of time on crypto, but, like, it is just straight up corruption in plain sight. It's. They're not even pretending, and yet nobody seems to care.
- [14:32]
A
Nobody cares.
- [14:34]
B
It's like JBL itself, like, 70% of his net worth.
- [14:38]
A
Yeah. So, I mean, if you're Don Jr. Your access to all of that money, that money machine, is predicated upon you and. Or your family retaining control of the Republican Party. Do you think he's gonna just give that to J.D. vance for free? Like, what in the character of the Trump family leads you to believe that they would ever hand something valuable, like, monetarily valuable, to someone else?
- [15:05]
B
No, not voluntarily.
- [15:07]
A
I just don't see that.
- [15:08]
B
No. Through your. Because I thought this was interesting. You're kind of like, look, I know people will think this is morbid. Look, Donald Trump is 79 years old. Breaking news. In the words of Joni Ernst, well, we're all gonna die someday. So, like, it's just a reality. Can you walk through your thoughts on, like, why it matters or there are different scenarios based on kind of when Donald Trump does dying and what he's doing at the time. Not every moment, but broadly so.
- [15:39]
A
I mean, broadly speaking. There are two. Two states in which he could die. The first is the state in which he is currently holding power, and the second is which he is making a claim to power. And you can. You can slice that in a bunch of different ways. You could say that he, you know, he has not yet declared his intention to run for a third term. I mean, I. I should say, as an aside, we could all say that, like, oh, he's not going to run for a third term and he's going to retire to Mar a Lago and paint watercolors, like, maybe. I guess I find that to be the single least likely it's not in his nature.
- [16:21]
B
Doesn't mean he won't do it. But it's not in his nature.
- [16:23]
A
Yeah, but do you guys. You know, maybe your mileage will. Will vary on that. I look at this, and I think if Trump is holding power, then the immediate leadership goes to whoever happens to be sitting in the vice presidential chair, because that is an elected office. It's constitutional office. You can't get it. There really isn't a way to get around that that doesn't involve, like, the actual end of the republic. Right.
- [16:51]
B
Yes. Well, I mean, it just means that the rule of law in the Constitution is moved, period.
- [16:55]
A
Right. And so in that case, if Vance is vice president, he will become president. He will be the leader of the MAGA movement, at least temporarily, and then he has to be moved aside. And that's hard. It's not impossible, but it's hard for Don Jr. To do. It is. And I was thinking about all this because I just did a thing on Death of Stalin with. With Sonny Bunch and Sarah, which is.
- [17:18]
B
Was kind of the lead of the. Of your piece about.
- [17:20]
A
Yeah.
- [17:20]
B
Was this thing that you did with Sonny and Sarah.
- [17:23]
A
Yeah, and that is. And so that's Georgi Malenkov. Right. So Malinkov was Stalin's deputy premier. And so Stalin dies and Malinkov is just like, well, I guess I have to be premier. And Malinkov was. Was Vance like, and he's just a schlub. I. I even went and dug up two Time magazine photos, and it is like, is Mellonov looks a lot, lot more like Prio's epic. JD so anyway, I. But. And what's really funny about this is that when Stalin died, it was really important. So, you know, you have Monov ascending to the throne while Baria, who at the time runs the nkvd, and Khrushchev are fighting each other. And one of the chief battlegrounds is the kids. What are Stalin's kids? Who are they gonna. Who are they gonna.
- [18:20]
B
The parallels here are uncanny, but go ahead.
- [18:23]
A
So. And especially Svetlana is like the responsible one, even though she's insane. And Vasily.
- [18:30]
B
Oh, you said Svetlana.
- [18:31]
A
She's Ivanka. Yeah. Right. And Vasily, who is just a drunken embarrassment, is like, obviously Eric Trump. But. But there is then this question of like, okay, so what would the Trump kids do? And I think if Trump is making a claim on power, so not in power, but making a claim, and maybe this is that he has left office and has announced that he's running again or Maybe he has announced that he's seeking a third term. I think the natural thing for them to do is, is have Don Jr. Step forward and say, I am here to fulfill my father's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think you and I are basically aligned on this.
- [19:16]
B
I totally agree.
- [19:17]
A
Right.
- [19:17]
B
I mean, I really do think if Don Jr. Runs for the nomination under any circumstances, he would be the most likely person to win. I don't know that he will, but I do, sort of. He is the closest thing to the thing that people currently want within the pardon. JD Is not.
- [19:36]
A
And he is like, like, you know, legitimately sort of a MAGA folk hero. Guy loves hunting. He's got pictures. Go to a Bass pro shop. There's lots of pictures of him and stuff. And I honestly, the. The more I've watched the way that the Trump family has operated over these last seven months and their focus on self enrichment, the more I've thought that Don Jr. Is absolutely going to want to be president. For we forget all the ideological stuff, forget the maga Stu. It's just because you gotta keep those taps turned on and all of that money goes away the minute the Trump family doesn't run the Republican Party.
- [20:14]
B
It's so interesting, too. I think about this all the time, is like. And maybe they're. They're not, maybe they're not mutually exclusive, but, you know, I've always assumed that, like, Trump is solving for, like, power and because he doesn't have any real views, in my opinion, but he's just solving for power. And I increasingly think maybe they're just solving for money and power is a sort of a, A means to that end. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can. Because it is true. I mean, even with. We don't talk about them anymore purposely because they're out of the spotlight. But, you know, like, the Jared Kushner stuff and the, you know, all the money he made and, and the crypto stuff and the, you know, the, all the times that he goes to these, these things where he's, he's promoting his club, but he's also just there as president and the White House, you know, the, the Trump.
- [21:07]
A
Sorry, guys.
- [21:07]
B
And so that's what I wonder about. Is it like, is it power or money? Or is that. Not that. That. That affect. Practically, it doesn't. There's no real difference because they're so intertwined.
- [21:18]
A
I think in Trump's mind, that's how it is, right? Those, those two things are inextricably linked. There is no Separate.
- [21:24]
B
Does he have, like a vision of what? He wants the country to be real? I don't think.
- [21:29]
A
I don't think he does either. I think his vision has always been, I want to be loved, right? And I want to be loved. I want to be respected as the big man and I want to get all of the money that's due to me and whatever. I mean, in my darkest, darkest moments, I think that the way that we could, maybe the only way we could have avoided this is if we had like gone back in a time machine to 2017 and just said, hey, guys, no resistance. Every. Just get on board and just let it say he's great. Let it wash over. Which of course is wrong, right? I mean, this is. But like, in that timeline, like, any waltzes to Victor, maybe, you know, maybe the Democrats don't even run somebody against him in 2020. We just say, you know, oh, this man is so great. And, you know, he doesn't even need a third term because by acclamation, we're just, we're going to put you on Mount Rushm.
- [22:34]
B
Right?
- [22:36]
A
Maybe things are different then. I don't know. I think I've told you this, that if the Nobel Committee wanted to do us a solid, feels like they could go and make. We'll make a deal with him on, you know, hey, you stop this mass deportation bullshit and you stop deploying the National Guard, we'll give you your fucking Peace Prize.
- [22:57]
B
I bet he would do it. I mean, I think he. I was so struck by this. Yes. It wasn't yesterday. I think it was Friday. He sat down with this reporter from the Daily Caller. I mean, it's the. The whole interview was beyond weird. But she asks him one of the, like, semi serious questions. She says, do you crave the Nobel Peace Prize? And he goes on for 286 words. I mean, it's like a five minute answer now. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but it's clear how obsessed he is with it, you know, like, I mean, I. We know that already, but I mean, it's just an affirmation. Like, it's by far the longest answer he gives to any question. You could ask him about, like, the nuclear threat from Iran and it would be two minutes long.
- [23:47]
A
Crazy, isn't it? Yeah, this is where we are. And I think it's all genuine. Like, I think he is legitimately obsessed with this stuff. I don't think it's a work.
- [23:55]
B
And this is the guy who I always, you know, our friend David Farenthal. You know, when I was at the Washington Post, reported on how, you know, Trump had fake time man of the year.
- [24:05]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [24:06]
B
Covers hung up all around his club. That's what you're, it's that, that doesn't go away, folks. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's, that is a, that, that is your whole life. You are driven by external recognition. Like, nobody even cares about Time magazine anymore. And he still is into it. You know, it's just. Okay, I want to make a hard turn because I do want to talk about a few other things before we go. I do want to. You for people who I think know you and follow you, you are in the world of, of youth sports, at least in the baseball regard. I am in it in soccer and baseball. My baseball is younger than your baseball. I just want to ask you this because I have this woman named Melissa Jacobs on. I'm going to do a thing with her tomorrow and we're doing a thing on you sports. She writes a great subset called Good Game. Have you have, have adults in your mind already ruined you sports? I include, I include parents. I include travel team coaches. You know, anyone who's above about 23, I guess I would put in that category.
- [25:14]
A
Yeah, I. Yes and no. I mean, you know, we all have agency and if you are super duper intentional about it, you can still make youth sports to be like a really, really large positive for your kid, no matter what their ability level is. It's harder to do that just by accident in the way that we used to be able to do. I think. Yes, we used to do. But my, my general proposition is that all of you, every sport is now girls gymnastics. And I, I use girls gymnastics just as like, again, nothing, nothing against girls gymnastics, but just as a placeholder for when we were kids.
- [26:00]
B
Yep.
- [26:01]
A
The most insane level of sport was essentially the pipeline for girls gymnastics that led to like the Soviet Union and the Olympics and you'd move away when.
- [26:16]
B
You were six years old.
- [26:16]
A
Right. What was the, what was the Bella Caroly?
- [26:20]
B
Right. Yeah.
- [26:22]
A
And that, that is, I mean, it isn't literally true that everything in America is that, but like everything in America is headed towards that way. Like girls volleyball is headed towards that way. Girls volleyball didn't really exist as a Sport in America 25 years ago, and it's gone from zero to 60 like that. Yeah. And this has happened sort of at every level. And it's. I think it's not great. But one of the things that I've observed and I'm Very interested to hear your, your experience on this because mine is really just limited. So A, it's just my experience, so it may not be right.
- [27:00]
B
Right.
- [27:01]
A
And B, it's just baseball. But in my experience with youth baseball, all of the worst stuff about it was at the lowest levels and the worst, the worst parents, the worst coaches, the worst kids in terms of behaviors. I don't mean the worst kids. I mean kids are being failed by those around them. You know what I'm saying?
- [27:23]
B
The function of their parents and their coaches.
- [27:25]
A
Right. This is all happening at like 10 year old little league level.
- [27:30]
B
Yeah.
- [27:30]
A
And that as my kid moved up every level of eliteness you gain, people's perspectives become much, much healthier.
- [27:43]
B
I think that's right. I think that's right. I have two thoughts on it.
- [27:48]
A
So tell me about what you've seen in baseball, but then I want to hear what you would see in soccer.
- [27:52]
B
It's very similar. I actually think I would put soccer in terms of tolerability above baseball, but it's afflicted by the same stuff. I have two thoughts on the word elite when it comes to sports. One, a lot of people ask me because they know my kids do this stuff and they say like, how do I know if my kid is like an elite level? Fill in the blank. And I say, trust me, if you have an elite athlete, you will know it. People will find you. If you're a kid at 14 or 15 kids, or 93, 94, 95, 96 miles an hour and he's gigantic, they'll find you. That's number one. Number two, I think that the worst thing that you can have in terms of keeping your perspective with all this is a kid who shows some athletic ability. I think if your kid is, you know, you put them in Little League and they got like the helmet on backward, like the, all the cliches that we think of.
- [28:57]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:58]
B
They don't, you know, they don't really care. They, they like being on a team and throwing the ball around. But like, you know, five minutes after the game is over, they're like, what are we eating for dinner? I think the biggest danger is your kid shows like, oh, he is a pretty good Little League pick.
- [29:13]
A
Yeah. Being the third best player in your little League division is like, that's the place where the parents and adults and be like, well, if he worked harder, Jimmy might be able to like.
- [29:21]
B
And then you're like, well, I got to do everything that I can to, to make, make this God given ability because it's like, the truth is, as you go up levels, I've seen this with my son in soccer. The pyramid at the very top is extremely narrow. Like, my son is a really nice soccer player. He's a very good soccer player. He's on a really good travel team. He will play in college. My son is not going to play a starting role as a freshman for Duke's soccer team. He's just not. Now there's a lot of reasons for that. Some of it's his height, some of it's the transfer portal, some of it's the number of internationals coming in. But my point is, it's like this top, top, top thing is, I mean, it's just like baseball. If your kid is a pitcher, right. Can, can your kid throw it through a wall? Like, can they throw 98? Are they 6 foot 4?
- [30:13]
A
Yeah.
- [30:13]
B
Then they might take a chance on you if they're 511 and they're crafty and they throw 86. It's just, I just think it's this obsession with you're going to produce a professional athlete. You're almost certainly not going, are you a professional athlete? Because if you are not, your chances of you producing a professional athlete are like roughly the chances of you, I mean, I don't know these numbers, but roughly the chances of you hitting the Powerball, like, it's just very unlikely.
- [30:43]
A
So I would say I'd make a distinction between professional athlete and like capital P professional athlete. Right. I mean there are people who, yeah. Who like, who wind up being good college players who then wind up in the coaching system and wind up make getting a head coach job at a Division 3 or Division 1 school who like, who can make an entire career in life for themselves in baseball. And I, I view that as still like professional athlete. Right. You know, these, they're making maybe 150, $180,000 a year in a job. What you like doing that they love doing. Right. And which is winning the lottery too. Right. That is great. You know, this is, it's like Don Zimmer used to say, you know, like, if I've worked every day of my life in baseball, which means I've never worked a day in my life.
- [31:31]
B
Totally agree.
- [31:32]
A
Right. That is different than I have a 15 year contract with the Mets.
- [31:39]
B
Correct. You're Juan Soto.
- [31:41]
A
Right.
- [31:41]
B
You've made $800 million playing baseball.
- [31:43]
A
Right. And I would say for the first thing, which most people don't ever think about, like, most people think about like professional becoming professional sports ball player. They don't think about what that means for 98% of the people who make their living in sports. Right. Because they make their living as coaching a travel team or running a facility or, you know, any of the other places.
- [32:07]
B
Yeah.
- [32:10]
A
I can, I can I say. I want to make an analogy for when you said like, you know, yeah, if. What does elite look like? One of the things that I found in, in sports in general, and again, maybe you, maybe you will have a different view is that no matter what the sport is, the answer is that you can tell the elite stuff after about five seconds and at almost any age, like it isn't, it isn't really the case that like. Well, a lot of these kids are late bloomers or their bodies might be late bloomers, but the kids who are like absolutely level, you could just tell it by looking. And the.
- [32:53]
B
I could watch, I could watch five minutes of an 11v11 soccer again with 16 year old boys, girls maybe. I just have never done it. I definitely know I can watch boys and be like. And you. If you tell me there's one kid who's on the national U17 national team in this group of 22, I think I could pick it out within 90 seconds. Now it might be a little longer. The kid doesn't get the ball for a minute. You know what I mean? Like it's, but it's. They move the analogy. I was. I don't know if it works in baseball, but it definitely works in basketball and soccer. Elite, elite, top of the pyramid. Kids move through space differently. I don't even know how to like put it. They have an ease.
- [33:40]
A
Let me explain to you, like it's Christopher. Yeah, let me explain it to you. When I was a young lad, I wound up in a room with Heidi Klum. I did not know that who Heidi Klum was at the time, but I fucking knew that whoever this person was, she was something because she looked like a fucking alien. She did not look like she was part of the same species as literally every. The other thousand people in that room you just looked at and like everybody had the same thing. Everyone's like, what is that? And that's what professional athletes are like when you see them at any age.
- [34:22]
B
Kid on Georgetown, Georgetown is a very good soccer team. There is a kid on the team who's a center back. He was the only college kid to make the U19 national team. He. Because I went there and I see that. I know the coach and I see, you know, I've seen them up close. He, he looks Like a horse. I mean like his legs are like, Looks like a different. It's hard to explain that to people because I think people don't have the context either. It's like, I see this all the time. They'll be like, oh, so and so. Such a good soccer player. I'm like, the reason you think that is because you haven't seen elite, elite players. You know what I mean? It's like, yes, my kid is good, but you just haven't seen how good. I mean, I think of this with baseball. My 13 year old's on a good travel team. Every once in a while we have to play these prospects teams that are either through, through a major league team, you know, like Mizuno the Cane, Mizuno Maruchi, whatever. That's when you see like, that's elite. These are gigantic. They all look polished. They move, they move easily.
- [35:28]
A
You can tell while watching them warm up. You don't even need to see them play. Honestly, you can tell just watching them play catch. And this is. So there's a kid, I'm sure I've told you this. There's a kid who was at Flash's facilities, three years older than he is. And I walked in. When I saw this kid. The first time I saw this kid, he was a sophomore, I think. And I was watching him take BP and I think I saw three swings, just three swings. And like my fucking eyes fell out of my head.
- [36:11]
B
Yeah, because you just like see it.
- [36:13]
A
What is this? Now, this kid was taken 41st overall in the draft last year. And I, I and everybody else in this facility understood that Luke was going to. He's in the Nationals organization now.
- [36:27]
B
Although that may be bad for him, but we'll take it.
- [36:29]
A
No, but, but the point is like everybody could tell because it's not, it isn't like he's 10x better than the next person. It's. It's like he's a million X. You see what I'm saying? And so that's what.
- [36:43]
B
Yeah, it's just different thing. I want to talk two quick last things. Number one, Shohei Otani. You have written about Shohei and this is a good natural segue. I was thinking this when I watched him strike out nine batters in five innings and hit two home runs in one game, all in the same game. Is it one, is he still underrated? Two, is it possible he could be the greatest baseball player of all time? Which I default to sort of it being Babe Ruth with Willie Mays maybe second.
- [37:15]
A
Yeah. Yes to Both. So he. What was his contract with the Dodgers?
- [37:23]
B
I think it's like 8,850 million something in that. Over 800 million.
- [37:28]
A
I believe that will be looked at as the. The biggest steal in the history of professional sports.
- [37:32]
B
Like when Google bought YouTube, right?
- [37:34]
A
I mean, like, you're just like, are you kidding me? They got this guy. But he's like. With everything else, it. The difference between him and number two. Number two here being Babe Ruth is so great that it's not even really worth talking about. Like it's. Shohei will be the greatest player in the history of the game and it won't even be a conversation. Like everything else is just going to be. Well, I mean, other than Shohei, who is the greatest player in the history of baseball? Because it's not comp. There is no comp.
- [38:05]
B
Like.
- [38:06]
A
Well, he's Babe Ruth and Nolan Ryan. What?
- [38:10]
B
Right, right.
- [38:12]
A
He's Babe Ruth and Nolan Ryan. Okay? And the only thing that stops this is if he gets hurt. And I really, really hope he doesn't because I love watching him play and I love everything about the guy. Like, I just.
- [38:27]
B
We're not talking about it enough. Like you are watching a. Like an all time, all time great. Like worst case scenario, he's like a top 10 all time player. I think worst case.
- [38:41]
A
Here's my question for you. Should they keep giving the MVP award to him or do you just have. Because again, it just isn't. He is the most valuable player in the league. It's not close. Or should they just. Just say, look, we're going to rename it after him and we'll give it to somebody else every year?
- [39:00]
B
No, I. Look, I. I think I hate the whole MVP thing. I think you and I have talked about this. Probably not online, but I hate the whole MVP conversation because it's bullshit. It's like everything else. It's all politics. Well, so and so has won it so many times. We can't give it to him. Well, of course you can. Is he the. Is he the most valuable player or not? I just. To me it's not even close. I mean, the idea that he would not win it this year, even though, I mean, I know he missed some time and second in the National League in home runs and I know he. He came back slowly from the Tommy John and. But I just. And I know the team isn't good. I know they're on the west coast and I know. I mean, sorry. I know the team is. I was thinking he was on the 8th. I know the team is good. I know there's a bunch of stars clear that he's clearly the best player. Like, who would you rather have, Shohei Ohtani or Aaron Judge? I don't even think it's close. Like, I think Pete Crowe. Armstrong is a great player. What? I mean, it's just not. It's like you said, it's like a million X in my mind. Different.
- [40:03]
A
No, I, I couldn't agree more.
- [40:04]
B
Tatis great player will be in the hall of Fame.
- [40:07]
A
Yeah. Will Smith might wind up second in the bet in the voting. Honestly, with the. The Dodgers. The Dodgers one through four is so silly.
- [40:17]
B
It's unbelievable. I mean, Freddie Freeman continues to be ridiculously good.
- [40:21]
A
Like ageless Sh to Mookie to Freddy to Will Smith. I mean, all four of these, they have four first ballot hall of Famers in the absolute primes of their careers, all having amazing seasons. Like, I just, I've never seen anything like it.
- [40:39]
B
Okay, I haven't either. I want to do one more thing before we come down. Wrestling somebody in this, in the chat, just put Cal Raleigh's name there as MVP. Now I like the Cal Raleigh story. My 13 year old is really into it. Am I too cynical that Cal Raleigh, Cal Raleigh's sudden power seems slightly less storybook than it's being sold? As he says, remembering the Maguire Sosa summer and media soul, I think we're like, I feel cynical, but I just don't. We've talked about this before. It's The Brady Anderson 12 home runs, 18 home runs, 17 home runs, 52 home run.
- [41:23]
A
I never want that feeling that I had rewatching dodgeball and seeing Lance Armstrong in it and all of a sudden like now it's actually not as funny. And I don't know, you know what I Hope is that six years from now, Cal Raleigh is still hitting 50 home runs a year. That's what I want more than anything for him. And I really truly hope that that's the case.
- [41:46]
B
It's a great story. I just, I was trying. My 13 year old was like, what? What? And I was like, well, he just has never hit me. And I was like, you know what, don't worry about it. It's a great story. Don't.
- [41:54]
A
You don't need to worry about it, dad.
- [41:55]
B
Cynicism.
- [41:57]
A
Are you gonna tell your kid that, you know, there's a tooth fairy too.
- [42:00]
B
While you're at it? Exactly.
- [42:01]
A
Come on, man, let him have nice things.
- [42:02]
B
The worst last thing I was talking to, I think it was Chuck Todd and He derides my love of pro wrestling, which is fine. He's entitled to his opinion. He said something that I thought was interesting that I put a note down in my head to ask you about. He said he is concerned about ESPN buying the WWE rights because it further blurs the line between what is actual sport without script, without plan, and what is pro wrestling. I don't. I will admit I don't.
- [42:44]
A
Well, Netflix has the rights now.
- [42:46]
B
Espn, sorry, but that. That. Like that. I think they're advertising. I think ESPN is doing some stuff around that space.
- [42:55]
A
Maybe. I thought ESPN was in the process of losing UFC to Netflix because TKO Sports was on. Look, I understand what you're saying.
- [43:03]
B
His broader point, whether DSP or not, it's like the adjacency of. And the prominence of pro wrestling as co. Equal to. I mean, it's not even equal to baseball. More people care about pro wrestling. But regardless, co equal to a major sport in this country was problematic. What do you. I don't have a. Have some sort of steaming hot take on. I don't. I just thought it was an interesting thought.
- [43:29]
A
I. I want to be nice to Chuck. I think that the. The general views like this, which are fairly widespread, are from people who seem to think that it is only recently that the whole world was shocked to discover that pro wrestling was staged. Right when the. I mean, pro life, pro wrestling. The vast majority of people who are aficionados of pro wrestling have understood what pro wrestling is like. Everybody who is alive right now, literally every American who is alive right now has for the course of their entire lives understood that professional wrestling is sports entertainment.
- [44:17]
B
Nothing. Nobody who is alive here than someone's like, you like pro wrestling? You know it's fake, right? I'm like, yeah, I get it. Oh, okay. Patrick notes, the premium, WWE premium events are going to espn. Thank you.
- [44:28]
A
Oh, is that. Is that what's going on at the. Very interesting.
- [44:30]
B
Because they're just trying to buy up so much live programming. J.
- [44:32]
A
Right.
- [44:32]
B
I mean, it's the only thing that they can still monetize.
- [44:35]
A
Right? I don't. I. I love it. Do you know. Do you have. Did you read the David Shoemaker book Life and Death in the Squared Circle?
- [44:46]
B
Yes. It's so awesome. I love him.
- [44:48]
A
He's great.
- [44:49]
B
He's at the ringer. I believe he's at the ringer still.
- [44:51]
A
I think he's still there. Yeah.
- [44:53]
B
I can never track, but he's really smart and thoughtful about it.
- [44:57]
A
And his. His book, which I had never understood the origins of of pro wrestling. And so I will share with you guys. Yeah. So pro wrestling begins as a traveling carny thing. So a barnstorming. You go to a. It was like, tough man contest, you know, two men. I bring my champion, then I. And what. What the promoters found was that the real wrestling was boring. Real wrestling was two guys rolling around in the dirt. And it could take like an hour or two hours. And the people were just standing around in a circle watching. And they realized also the guys who were doing it were getting hurt. It was just like, it was no fun for anybody. And it was like, why don't we just, you know, make it a show? And everybody loved it. That's what. And once it was a show, then there was ideas about, like, okay, well, we gotta use this to tell story. We gotta have a guy who's the face, the baby face, the guy who's a champion that the crowd can root for and somebody who they can root against. And that, again, it has been like that for like 150 years in America, you know, since before we had electricity. So I don't know. It doesn't bother me. I. I like it. I understand that maybe it bothers.
- [46:17]
B
I get that other people don't like it, but I just. Somebody said to me, they were like, you know, it's fake. I was like, have you ever watched the soap opera or literally read a book or watched anything that is fiction? Because, like, a movie, you know, the Summer I Turned Pretty is not a documentary. Right. Like, you're aware that it's not a documentary. Right. And yet you're still drawn in to a fictitious. It's the same thing, by the way. We can end on this. But as you were saying, two men rolling around, they thought that was boring and they. They needed to make it entertaining or they needed to kind of, you know, I mean, that's literally. I know these comparisons. We make them all the time. I've said it many times that I think world rest pro wrestling explains Donald Trump almost as well, if not better than any other lens. But, my God, like, politics was boring, right? To drive policy debates. The lockbox.
- [47:09]
A
We got to talk about the lockbox again.
- [47:11]
B
Chris Gore v. Bush. Yeah, right. And now we've got. We're going to take over Panama Canal and we're going to. I mean, there really is. I would urge people, read the David Shoemaker book Ina Fried wrote, or Ina Freed wrote a book about McMahon, Vince McMahon that you should read and go watch.
- [47:30]
A
Oh, the. Josie Reisman is who you think? Yes. Josie Reisman's book, which is called.
- [47:37]
B
I was thinking Axios.
- [47:39]
A
Yeah. What's the book called? It's not called Mr. McMahon. Ringmaster. Ringmaster. It's unbelievably good.
- [47:45]
B
It's so insightful. And. And go watch. And I say this every time I do a live of any sort. Go watch the Mr. McMahon documentary on. On Netflix. I mean, it's just.
- [47:55]
A
It's so good.
- [47:56]
B
You want to understand Donald Trump. It's all there. I mean, it really is. You know, I hesitate to call it the codex that unlocks everything, because it's like, even. Even once you understand it, it's like we were talking about earlier, understanding it doesn't mean that there's a solution for it. You know what I mean? Like, but it really is. I mean, you know, people who deride people who go to pro wrestling. It's like, well, there's a lot of those people, and some are in it. Most are in on the joke, some are not in on the joke. I mean, there's just.
- [48:25]
A
I think they're all in on the joke.
- [48:27]
B
You think they're all in the joke.
- [48:28]
A
I don't think there's anybody left in.
- [48:29]
B
America who once in on the Donald Trump thing. Like, does everyone know? There is a. That's what I was just trying to. There is a different thing, because I think my whole thing is. I think he is basically playing a character that is not dissimilar to who he is, but he's playing kind of like a character of himself that he kind of Riley understands and winks at, but that there are a lot of people who don't understand he's playing. I equate it to, like, people on cable news. It's like, I don't think Sean Hannity is not conservative. I'm sure he's probably conservative, but he's not. The character he is playing on TV is not necessarily his belief set.
- [49:07]
A
Well, that's what Vince was totally. So. So Vince McMahon. And this is, you know, a famous story about Vince, is that he. He talked about what you should always do in life to succeed is you should find what makes you you. And turn it up to 11. And that is the Vince McMahon ethos. And this. Right. It's in there. And I'm fairly convinced that that is one of the many lessons that Trump took from his close encounter with wrestling, because he was a major figure in professional wrestling in the 90s. And this was part of. It's this about heat, right? He learned about drawing heat, learned about making people care.
- [49:42]
B
I Would urge people. Sorry to interrupt you. I would urge people. I think the stuff that JBL writes about wrestling and Trump and heat and how that works for him, I think is like, really, really important and insightful. Anyone can be like Trump bad. You know what I mean? Like, I get it. You know, I'm not suggesting he's not, but understanding how he views the world is critical. And I think the whole. I mean, if you do do a minute or two on that jbl and then we'll end, I promise I'm going.
- [50:16]
A
To do on what. On Trump and Pete and Trump and.
- [50:20]
B
Sees the world out way.
- [50:21]
A
So in wrestling, heat is just. The heat is the measure of an audience caring about your character, and it has an absolute value signing around it. It doesn't matter if people love you or hate you. What, what death is in wrestling is indifference. And Trump very much has that internalized. Right. This is. This is behind the constant, you know, flood the zone of shit stuff is. It serves a lot of. A lot of functions for him, but one of it is it forces care about him and to never take him for granted, to never get bored of him. And he, he understood the power of having people care passionately about him and alone. I mean, it's not true. Maybe George Wallace was like this, right. I mean, there have been other figures in America who were not obsessed with being loved, who understood the power of being hated. Nixon was probably like this too, right? Yep. But Trump, Trump took this to a level that nobody has ever really contemplated bringing into politics before, where he really didn't care if half the country really, really hated him. And he understood that their hatred would reinforce the devotion of the people who liked him.
- [51:37]
B
And this is the thing I wonder about with Trump is people are like, why aren't you more exercised? Why don't you hate him more? And I always say to people, I understand that view, but your hate, not you, but the hatred of Trump and the way that people get angry in a lot of ways. I know this is difficult, but it is what he thrives on. There is a huge piece of him that draws power from the amount of dislike there is out there. Which doesn't mean you should be indifferent, but I, but I do, I do think that that is a thing. And that's another wrestling thing. It's the worst thing in Donald Trump's world is not to be hated. It is to be irrelevant. I mean, there's just no. To not be mentioned, to be on the outside looking in. Right. I mean, that's death to him. All right.
- [52:30]
A
And I think Don Jr. Has internalized that lesson, too. That's the other. The other piece of this is, do we think Don Jr. Has learned that and really taken it to heart? And I don't think he's very smart, but I think he's reasonably crafty. And I think that, like, his dad, he is desperate to, like, be loved and have affirmation because his dad clearly didn't give it to him.
- [52:51]
B
Yeah. His social media presence is fascinating. I would urge people, even if you really don't like the guy, he. He is crafting and has been crafting a Persona, you know, I mean, to the wrestling comedy, he is crafting himself in the mold of I'm the next guy. Maybe he won't be, but next time.
- [53:08]
A
We talk, we got to go deep on Heidi Klum.
- [53:11]
B
I love a good in the room with Heidi Klum. I mean, that's JVL in the room with Heidi Klum. Okay, thank you, my friend.
- [53:18]
A
Next time, buddy.
- [53:19]
B
Pleasure. Take care. All right, everybody, take care.