Bulwark Takes Podcast Summary

Episode: Kash Patel Is Dismantling FBI Counterintelligence
Date: December 27, 2025
Guests: Derek Owen, R.M. (Ross) Schneiderman
Host: Ben Parker

Episode Overview

This episode tackles concerns about the future of FBI counterintelligence in the wake of reforms and leadership changes—especially the influence of Kash Patel, recently appointed as FBI director. Drawing on a major Bulwark article by Owen and Schneiderman, the hosts explore how a generation of hard-won advances in catching spies is now at risk. They discuss historical context, the reforms that modernized FBI intelligence work, the complicated interplay among policymakers, and current efforts (seen as politically charged) to dismantle what experts view as essential national security capabilities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. FBI Counterintelligence: A Brief History

• In the aftermath of the Cold War and especially 9/11, the FBI shifted from a reactive to a proactive counterintelligence posture — focusing on catching spies before they could cause damage.
• The agency’s past failures to address Chinese espionage, particularly nuclear secrets theft (e.g., the Wen Ho Lee scandal), spurred this evolution.

Quote:
“We're not doing like the cat and mouse game at the Soviet Union anymore... There are all these scandals about Chinese spies stealing all sorts of things, but especially American nuclear technology...”
— Ben Parker [03:26]

Quote:
“At the Albuquerque office, counterintelligence was number four in the priority list... So if things are slow to get going, you can miss things. Eventually they zeroed in on Wenho Lee... but there might have been other stuff going on. The key thing is we just don’t know.”
— Derek Owen [04:41]

2. The Impact of 9/11 & Bureaucratic Reform

• 9/11 forced the FBI to rethink its priorities, emphasizing proactive defense as much as prosecution.
• Figures like David Zaidy and Tom McQueenie drove internal reforms: centralizing authority, boosting inter-office communication, and raising counterintelligence’s priority inside the Bureau.
• Key tension: making counterintelligence “sexy” and prioritized, moving away from its “rubber gun squad” reputation.

Quote:
“FBI agents out on the streets enforcing immigration law... highly trained experts in Chinese spies off rounding people up... is not something the FBI has ever done.”
— Ben Parker [19:19]

Quote:
“Counterintelligence was considered the rubber gun squad... reverting back to that era would be a disaster for the FBI.”
— Ross Schneiderman [13:26]

3. Challenges: Defunding and Decentralizing the Mission

• Current political efforts, especially in the Trump/Patel era, reflect desires to move FBI agents "out of Washington" and downplay intelligence in favor of more traditional law enforcement.
• Congressional moves (led by Rep. Crawford) propose stripping the FBI of its counterintelligence function, shifting it to the Director of National Intelligence (DNI), now headed by Tulsi Gabbard.
• Arguments for: Greater coordination across agencies. Arguments against: Added bureaucracy, reduced agility, and risk of civil liberties violations.
• The Bulwark article revealed that despite public rumors, Gabbard’s office denied supporting the shift, raising questions about political motives and transparency.

Quote:
“If you’re adding that extra thing or like removing the authority or, you know, in any way diminishing that capacity, you’re making what is already a very, very difficult job that much harder.”
— Derek Owen [20:35]

Quote:
“I don’t think that’s the direction that Crawford’s office or the DNI would want to go in. I just want to make that clear. But people are concerned about those civil liberties.”
— Ross Schneiderman [22:01]

4. Why the Stakes Are So High

• American adversaries (China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba) are as aggressive as ever in trying to steal secrets.
• The expertise, institutional memory, and infrastructure built after 9/11 are in danger of being dismantled or neglected, putting national security at risk.
• The panel warns against a “Groundhog Day” cycle of reform, neglect, failure, and then reform again—at potentially catastrophic cost.

Quote:
"It is definitely a warning lights are blinking red kind of piece."
— Ben Parker [32:37]

5. Anecdotes, Memorable Moments & Cutting Room Floor Stories

• Zaidy’s Pitch & the Counterintelligence Poster:
  “Terrorism will kill you in a second, like a heart attack. But there’s this other cancer...” (his speech to skeptical FBI brass) [14:57]
  Zaidy had a poster:
  “Burglaries affect individuals, bank robberies affect communities, counterintelligence affects the world—with a mushroom cloud in the background.” [27:07]

• Technology Woes:
  In the ‘90s, FBI agents struggled with email and digital communication, hampering counterintelligence just as threats were going high-tech. [25:43]

• The Halloween Story:
  Zaidy once walked across UC Berkeley’s campus on Halloween, dressed in an FBI suit, and students asked:
  “What’s your costume supposed to be?” He replied: “I’m dressed as an FBI agent.” [31:01]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• FBI’s historical failures and Wen Ho Lee scandal:
  [03:26]-[06:38]

• Shift to proactive counterintelligence post-9/11:
  [09:01]-[14:04]

• Internal resistance and Zaidy’s pivotal pitch:
  [14:57]-[15:49]

• Current legislative threats and the DNI takeover proposal:
  [18:38]-[24:54]

• Lessons from history; dangers of losing focus:
  [31:46]-[32:37]

Notable Quotes

• “I've seen him [Zaidy] give that pitch a thousand times, and he slays every time.”
  — Derek Owen [14:57]

• “If all this you’re talking about is true, why the fuck aren’t you in there pounding on Mueller’s desk asking for more resources?... You’re right. I should be.”
  — Agent Matthews & Zaidy, as recounted by Owen [15:49]

• “If you listen to Kash Patel... one of the things he says is, he wants to take FBI agents, send them out over the country, get them out of Washington, go be cops, forget about all this intelligence nonsense. So essentially, what he’s saying is all those reforms that... the Bureau did for like 20 years... Let’s get those out of here.”
  — Ross Schneiderman [31:04]

Tone & Style

• The conversation is lively, candid, and deeply informed, with the guests blending serious warnings with self-deprecating humor and insider anecdotes.
• Themes of institutional memory, reform, and the importance of not “throwing out everything good” in a rush—politically or administratively—are woven throughout.
• The episode balances an alarmist edge (“warning lights are blinking red”) with a pragmatic, process-oriented perspective.

Takeaway

This episode delivers a sobering look at how quickly vital national security capabilities can be dismantled under the pressures of political change and bureaucratic reshuffling. The guests remind listeners that progress in intelligence and counterespionage is hard-won but easily lost—and that the stakes are nothing less than global security.

For more detail, see the full article “The FBI Spent a Generation Relearning How to Catch Spies, Then Came Kash Patel” at thebulwark.com.