Leaked Billionaire Group Chats Show The Real Power Behind Trump

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Detailed Summary of "Leaked Billionaire Group Chats Show The Real Power Behind Trump"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Bulwark Takes
• Host/Author: The Bulwark
• Episode: Leaked Billionaire Group Chats Show The Real Power Behind Trump
• Release Date: April 30, 2025

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1. Introduction and Overview

In the episode titled "Leaked Billionaire Group Chats Show The Real Power Behind Trump," Sam Stein, the managing editor at The Bulwark, engages in a revealing discussion with Ben Smith and Max Tani, both affiliated with Semaphore. The conversation centers on how private group chats among Silicon Valley elites and wealthy individuals have become pivotal in shaping political discourse and policy, particularly in relation to former President Donald Trump.

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2. The Rise of Elite Group Chats and Their Purpose

Ben Smith introduces the concept by explaining the origins of these influential group chats. Initially, these chats were formed by tech entrepreneurs, often center-right, who felt increasingly alienated by progressive trends on public social media platforms.

"In 2020 when social media was sort of very progressive, very heated, a lot of these folks... retreated from social media into these group chats."
[00:46] Ben Smith

One of the key figures mentioned is Marc Andreessen, a prominent venture capitalist, who orchestrated several of these group chats. The initial discussions often revolved around workplace culture issues, such as resistance to adopting symbols like the Black Lives Matter logo or including pronouns in email signatures.

"A lot of it was like, my employees want me to put a Black Lives Matter logo up. I don't want to. I'm afraid that..."
[02:24] Ben Smith

As the conversations evolved, these chats shifted from workplace policies to more explicitly political topics, marking a transition from moderate concerns to more radical, coordinated political strategies.

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3. Influence on Policy and the Trump Administration

The discussion delves into how these group chats have influenced policy-making and supported the resurgence of Trumpism within Silicon Valley. Sam Stein highlights the significant influence of individuals like Marc Andreessen, noting his relentless effort to shape policies behind the scenes.

"Mark seems to be a real..."
[04:08] Ben Smith

Ben Smith further elaborates on how leaders within these chats have directly impacted the Trump administration by staffing key positions and influencing policy directions. Notable figures such as David Sacks and Sriram Krishnan have transitioned from these private forums to significant roles within the administration.

"There's a bunch of like lawyers and stuff going into the administration who basically were discovered in the chats."
[07:07] Ben Smith

This infiltration signifies a strategic alignment between Silicon Valley elites and the Trump administration, consolidating their power and influence over national policies.

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4. Media Strategy and Groupthink

A critical aspect discussed is the development of a coordinated media strategy within these group chats. Ben Smith draws parallels to past instances of groupthink among journalists and think tank members, emphasizing the potential dangers of such insulated discussions.

"It was like that it was like kind of a machine for groupthink..."
[11:02] Ben Smith

Sam Stein and Max Tani explore how this environment fosters a culture of unanimous agreement, stifling dissenting opinions and promoting a unified front against perceived adversaries, particularly mainstream media. This closed-loop communication leads to amplified criticisms of media figures and the dissemination of coordinated attacks.

"There's been multiple... looks coordinated because they're all harping on the same story..."
[16:44] Sam Stein

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5. The Role of Twitter and Elon Musk's Intervention

The conversation shifts to the role of public platforms like Twitter versus private group chats. Max Tani raises questions about Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter and its implications for these private discussions.

"Elon's attempt... retake control of that conversation and to kind of drive it to be closer to what he saw."
[08:44] Max Tani

Ben Smith concurs, suggesting that Musk's takeover was an effort to redirect public discourse back to his preferred narrative, countering the shift of elite conversations to private channels like Signal. However, Sam Stein notes that despite Musk's intentions, the dominance of private group chats persists.

"Group chats, it's Funny... but they just don't want to do that. They much rather have like minded people..."
[08:44] Sam Stein

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6. Consequences and Current State of These Group Chats

The episode examines the current state of these elite group chats, highlighting a trend towards exclusivity and the purging of dissenting voices. Ben Smith points out that these chats have become breeding grounds for groupthink, where challenging the consensus is often discouraged.

"These chats have gone back to Twitter and substack and podcasts and this chat ecosystem is sort of dying, I think."
[10:27] Ben Smith

Moreover, the influence of these chats extends to public platforms, where ideas and strategies formulated in private are executed publicly, often manifesting as coordinated media attacks or policy initiatives that align with the group’s unified stance.

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7. Conclusion and Final Insights

In wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the broader implications of these leaked group chats. They emphasize the concerning concentration of power within a small, affluent group, and the potential threats to democratic discourse when policy and media are influenced by private, homogenous discussions.

"It is deplorable, but also, Max and I were talking about how... they are fine taking critiques if they come from people who they think are their peers..."
[13:32] Sam Stein

The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to remain vigilant and informed about the behind-the-scenes influences shaping national policies and media narratives.

"It is something clearly that the folks in the group chat are kind of Wrestling with..."
[13:44] Ben Smith

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Notable Quotes:

• Ben Smith [02:24]: "A lot of it was like, my employees want me to put a Black Lives Matter logo up. I don't want to. I'm afraid that..."

• Max Tani [08:44]: "Elon's attempt... retake control of that conversation and to kind of drive it to be closer to what he saw."

• Sam Stein [13:32]: "My theory of the case is that these people are fine... taking critiques if they come from people who they think are their peers..."

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a compelling examination of the hidden power structures within billionaire group chats and their significant influence on contemporary American politics and media. By uncovering the interplay between private discussions and public actions, the hosts shed light on the mechanisms through which a select few can steer national discourse and policy.

Transcript

[Sam Stein]

Hey guys, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark. I am joined by Ben Smith and Max Tani, both of Semaphore. And we are here to talk about group chats and how they've become the epicenters of power. Before we do that, subscribe to the feed. We appreciate the subscriptions. It's helpful. Watch the video too. Could be informative. Ben, Max, thanks so much. We're talking about this piece that Ben has up the group chats that Changed America. Before we get into it, it's great writing, but really it's great editing. Who was the editor?

[Ben Smith]

You know, we're as. As you may have been in this kind of situation where you're like a scrappy startup and you. And it's kind of like you just try to wrangle somebody. And so I just dropped the Google Doc into a chat and Max did a little bit of editing. Oh my God. I could tell Liz Hoffman did most of the editing.

[Max Tani]

Great, Liz.

[Sam Stein]

The joke was going to be that Max was the editor. I want you to declare. Max told me privately that he edited it.

[Ben Smith]

It.

[Max Tani]

I added some stuff. I did add a few little, I added a few little tweaks. You know, I have a really high level conceptual stuff. You know, top editing. Yeah, I'm not in the weeds there.

[Sam Stein]

He was at the 30, 000 foot level.

[Max Tani]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sam Stein]

All right, so let's the thrust of this and Ben, I want you to just kind of lay out both your reporting process and, and also what you think the central takeaway here is. But for me it was that everyone is just shooting the on signal, including like the masters of the universe. And they have these crazy conversations. But in this case they're happening among people who have like direct lines to Trump and his minions and they're actually, as you say, navigating or orchestrating or whatever. The verb is the, the policies of this country.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, basically what happened was that in 2020 when social media was sort of very progressive, very heated, a lot of these folks who were kind of, I would say ranging from really quite pro Trump and on the right, but mostly kind of center right tech entrepreneurs who typically supported Democrats, supported Republicans, kind of retreated from social media into these group chats. Marc Andreessen, the creator of the Netscape browser and, and kind of iconic VC venture capitalist, orchestrated a lot of these. Like he arranged them for first for tech and his tech industry peers who spent a lot of time talking about how woke their and annoying their own employees. Were like, this was a main feature of the chats was like, my employees.

[Sam Stein]

Every boss does this. Yes, of course.

[Ben Smith]

But like, my employees. But a lot of it was like, my employees want me to put a Black Lives Matter logo up. I don't want to. I'm afraid that like, like that was a big. That's sort of where they started. And then it's probably like, do we.

[Sam Stein]

Need to do pronouns in the email signatures?

[Ben Smith]

No, literally, that's what this was about. And then, and then they moved to signal where they were talking about more explicitly political stuff. And at first they had a bunch of the authors of the Harper's Letter in one of the signals with Andreessen, who were sort of free speech liberals.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

And at some point, Andreessen and Christopher Rufo, a conservative activist who was in those. They just got sick of them. And we're like, we're tired of talking about free speech. We want, like, we want to crush our enemies, and we don't care if that crushes their speech. And so. Which is what you're seeing now. And so Mark just kind of blew up that group chat and then they went over to this guy in Richard Hanania and found like, a more conservative group. But then Mark basically got too far right for Hernania and, and, and, and he left that group chat.

[Sam Stein]

It sounds like Mark's just searching for soulmates and going from single chat.

[Ben Smith]

He's a really interesting consequential figure, and he's a little bit, it feels like he's quiet, but actually he's spending, you know, 10 plus hours a day influencing very well.

[Sam Stein]

So he does occasionally, occasionally he picks his head up and he does a podcast or something like that. And yeah, I, I feel like of all the Silicon Valley titans, his power and influence is sort of the least appreciated. It's. And, and you're. I was gonna ask you to be this later, but it does seem like this is sort of the undertone of this piece, which is, you know, there's, there's epicenters of power, obviously. Elon's one and Trump is one, of course, and Steve Bannon's one and so on and so forth and on. The all in guys have their own little thing. And Tucker's one. But like, Mark seems to be a real.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, I think, I think to some degree he's patient zero for the sort of Silicon Valley moved alliance with Trump. And Elon comes later and Zuckerberg comes like, hopping along a little too late.

[Sam Stein]

Why did he get there first?

[Ben Smith]

Well, he's Always been a Republican. He's of the right in some general way. But also he wrote an essay called It's Time to Build, which was sort of the root of the kind of the first group chat was called Build. And you know about this idea that I think they talked themselves into, that this is who Donald Trump would be about a kind of like, you know, we've spent the last 10 years building ad tech and we need to build like patriotic industry space and manufacturing. And actually it wasn't AI hadn't blown up yet, but maybe AI kind of fits that. Although their idea was we need to build like physical stuff, nuclear reactors.

[Sam Stein]

Right, right.

[Ben Smith]

And there's a sense in which, if you don't listen too closely to what Trump is saying, that he's talking about reinventing a high tech global economy where everything is computer. But then when you listen more closely, he's like, everything is computer. We gotta like bring like literal computer manufacturing back to the US and that's not what these guys want at all. And so, yeah, it's gotten a little messy. And in fact, I think they did. They produced in these groups a kind of a group think and actually an idea of what the Trump administration would be like.

[Sam Stein]

Well, dude, I was gonna ask do they, do they come up with actual. And we'll get Max in here eventually. Although. Why are you even on here? Max, you invited me.

[Max Tani]

This is.

[Ben Smith]

We were going to do his performance review S. Oh, yeah, right.

[Max Tani]

Well, you guys can compare notes. You guys have each done.

[Ben Smith]

You both edited Max, fair enough.

[Sam Stein]

Before I get to the media component of this, I am one thing that kind of. I, I was left wondering is it's obvious that they have an influence on Trump or have, or at least paved the way for a reemergence of Trumpism in the Silicon Valley marriage of Trump. But do we know how directly they are involved currently with White House administrative operations? Obviously David Sachs, for instance, is a member of the crypto council, or whatever you want to call it, but he left, apparently left the chat in a huff. But are they making policy? Are they talking to administration officials? Are they staffing the, you know, all of those things.

[Ben Smith]

So David Sacks, who's the AI Czar and the crypto czar, is in the chats and is. Although he stormed out of one of the big ones recently because it's because people were criticizing the tariffs and he demanded that the guy, one of the chat administrators, set up a new one only for smart people to get all the dumb people out who don't like Trump.

[Sam Stein]

This seems to be a theme where they just purge themselves of people who disagree.

[Ben Smith]

But go ahead. Yes, but then also Sriram Krishnan, who was actually the sort of organizer of the chats originally, is now the White House AI advisor. And then what a couple of people have told me is that a way to get a job in the administration is that if you own Mark Cuban in the Chatham House chat, which has Mark Cuban in it, and like David Sacks notices how awesome you are, you can get a job that way. So there's a bunch of like lawyers and stuff going into the administration who basically were discovered in the chats.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, let's talk about the, the sort of media elements of this, because there are some. I thought Twitter was supposed to be the public forum where all this stuff happened, right? Like, wasn't that the idea, Max, where you just debate out in the open? This seems like they just don't want to do that. They, they much rather have like minded people and maybe get into a few arguments here or there, but as Ben notes, once they get tired of the arguments, they kind of throw them out of the chat.

[Max Tani]

Well, the interesting thing for me, and the one question that I had about the piece, and I think that we should actually continue to follow this as a reporting target, Ben is where Elon kind of fits in.

[Sam Stein]

Editor of editor for a hot minute and suddenly he's making assignments.

[Ben Smith]

No, that's a great point.

[Max Tani]

But it is, but it is true that all of these people are part of the Elon universe. And Elon certainly is involved in some, some of these group chats, some of some other group chats, secret, more secret, more high level, more smart people kind of group chats. But it's not, you know, specifically in some of these ones. But it seems very clearly to me that, you know, a lot of the people who were in these group chats were also the people who used to be extremely online on Twitter. You know, Marc Andreessen was P Marka and was just a prolific, you know, Twitter follower. He followed me at Business Insider when I had like 5, 500 followers. This guy is tapped into all streams of possible information. And as Ben writes, you know, as these guys became increasingly alienated by kind of the woke left on Twitter, they moved into these spaces. And I think that Elon's attempt, Elon's buying of Twitter was an attempt in some ways it seems to kind of retake control of that conversation and to kind of drive it to be closer to what he saw.

[Sam Stein]

It's funny. Group chats, it's Funny, I forget who it was that I was. There's a video of a former Elon friend turned, but I wish I remembered who it was. But basically they're like, Elon had a private disagreement with me, got really heated back and forth. And I think Elon's response was like, fucking come at me on Twitter. Not directly. Like Elon wanted the public engagement on his own platform, obviously, but he really, he wanted them to do it in, out in the open. And that's not what's happening here.

[Max Tani]

Well, to a certain degree it also seems like there is this. There are two kind of competing impulses and feelings that these, that some of these folks have. Which is the actual desire, as Ben writes, which is the actual desire for real high level conversation among the smartest people in the world. And also people who will confirm their views about various different policies and how WOKE has gone too far and.

[Sam Stein]

But doesn't this just breed groupthink? I mean, that was what I was. I mean, Chris Lehman in the Nation wrote about it, but he was like, this is just high level groupthink with a number of people who have immense self regard.

[Max Tani]

It does feel a little bit like blue sky for the richest people in the entire world. Ben, what do you think?

[Ben Smith]

I mean, it seems like, I mean, it's not, I mean everything breeds groupthink. I mean, just think about. Because it is true that, I mean I, you know, a lot of the people on there like love and really like, or at least loved these spaces and did find them incredibly valuable. Particularly like the tech focused one. If you're like an AI CEO and you're in some chat with Sam Altman and others, like, it's pretty cool and interesting, but. And it is also true that like the notion that there was this period of time when the way you had public conversation was you walked into an open air insane asylum and just screamed at the top of your lungs is like pretty weird. I mean, Twitter was pretty weird.

[Sam Stein]

It's still weird. It's weirder. Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

And actually like Elon taking Twitter over means that a lot of them have gone back to Twitter and substack and podcasts and this chat ecosystem is sort of dying, I think. And actually what one of them told me was that whereas it used to be that you went into Signal because you were afraid of saying something, that the left would go after you for you. Now the thing you say in Signal but not on Twitter is criticism of Donald Trump because that's what his career consequences.

[Sam Stein]

Right? And I, I just want to be clear like, there's always been a variation of these types of chats. Right. Like, I think you were on it, but I certainly was. Journalist.

[Ben Smith]

Journalist. Hell yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Journalist. Yes.

[Ben Smith]

Ezra Klein started.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, let's, let's, let's. Our former guest, Ezra Klein, for the Uninformed. Well, God, that's so long ago now. But it was a email list of, like, academics and think tankers and journalists, and it was the most benign, often boring stuff. But it got blown up into a legitimate scandal because people thought that the journalists on there were taking instructions on how to cover Barack Obama or something like that.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, or the soft version of it voiced by our friend Mickey Kaus is like that. It was that it was like kind of a machine for groupthink, and people were like, workshopping their ideas and then all coming out together as sort of a mob and like, you know, like not. And, you know, all the real disagreement is in private. And then the. And then in public, you just sort of brigade your enemies. And I think that that was.

[Sam Stein]

Is that not this.

[Ben Smith]

That is this. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's sort of a legitimate criticism of both of these things.

[Sam Stein]

Well, it's. I. And the thing I. And this is something that people guard against to a degree, which is audience capture. Right. Like you don't want to. You're almost. You are reluctant to agree, and maybe it's subconscious or not to offend your key and core audience. You don't like going on Twitter and then getting harangued. Right. Like you don't want to. Sometimes you don't want report things because you're. You're fearful of the, of the reaction it might induce. You still should report it, and you often, in the good ones do.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, that is a real reaction. But.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I see. That's the thing. I like pissing people off on Twitter. I like. People find that weird, but I enjoy stirring the pot.

[Max Tani]

This is why people hate people. This is why people hate the media, is that the people who are best at it are just pissing off large groups of people, which is not a normal human impulse.

[Ben Smith]

No, it is true that.

[Sam Stein]

It's true.

[Ben Smith]

I said this wedding toast once that for most of us that, like, the reason that we're good at journalism is the same reason that we're bad people. Like, it's, there's like a lot of. There's a lot of overlap.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, but I guess. Yeah, go ahead.

[Max Tani]

But, but, but I mean, I think that this actually, this is something clearly that the folks in the group chat are kind of Wrestling with is that they really just. These folks are not, you know, people who get delighted out of, you know, swerving in a different direction or, you know, finding things out that. That disagree with, you know, their preconceived notions. And that's why they keep kind of fleeing these spaces into smaller and smaller, Smaller and smaller groups. And that's the reason why so, so many of them dislike people in the media and spend their time obsessing over, you know, how the mainstream media has done them wrong. I, I think that it's. I think that that's some factor at play.

[Sam Stein]

That's. My theory of the case is that these people are fine. These people are fine taking critiques if they come from people who they think are their peers, but they're not fine taking criticism from the proletariat.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, I think that there is something to that. I do think there's something about these private spaces in general where you have a sense of like, well, like we can have an open conversation and disagree among ourselves. And actually, it was funny because I sent just the world's most benign and innocuous email.

[Sam Stein]

I loved it.

[Ben Smith]

To Balaji Srinivasan and Joe Lonsdale, because I was going to quote them. There's sort of an illustrative anecdote that I used as the lead about guys having a kind of spirited argument that was really it and said in the email that I don't think is really anything that interesting here, but just want to give you a heads up and would love to talk to you further. And they then both went on Twitter, you know, went nuts, and the journalists are out to get us and. But the thing that they most wanted to say was that, like, the fact that we disagreed in private does not mean that we aren't friends and don't. Aren't fundamentally on the same team against the communists and the journalists. And which is to say, like, well, everything you say in public is basically fake and propaganda. And only in private can you say real things, which is sort of depressing.

[Sam Stein]

It is depressing. But also, Max and I were talking about how, I mean, congratulations. There's nothing better than some source trying to preempt your story.

[Ben Smith]

That's great. Yeah, it's like a drumroll.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, Please, please don't read this story. It's so.

[Ben Smith]

And I do think that style, which maybe there was. There was a period, I mean, I, I agree with some of their criticism of tech journalism that I think kind of misunderstood those guys and their motives because they're basically business people. Not political actors. And, and they did feel very besieged, probably more. I don't know, they could have thicker skins. But also, I don't think they're. Their grievances are fake. But whatever it is, like, it's really, it just that has run its course that I thought it was hilarious when they were doing that on Twitter. And as far as I can tell, even their own followers were just like, what? What are you doing? That's a very polite email.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. It wasn't in the anecdote. It was fine, but it wasn't like it wasn't going to change their lives. It wasn't like, you know, a MeToo allegation or something.

[Max Tani]

I actually have a question for, for, for both of you guys and for, for Ben. Do you think that what they're saying. Because you pointed out they both rushed to Twitter to say that, you know, to say this and like, you know, especially, you know, both of those people who you mentioned are people who spend a lot of time on Twitter and tweeting about various things and in fact are prolific tweeters themselves. How much of saying in these group chats is just exactly the same stuff that they're saying on Twitter? It sounds quite similar to me. It's a lot of overlap.

[Ben Smith]

For a while, you know, they, I think they were saying like, the woke mob is here to get us. How do we save ourselves? They were not saying that on Twitter. Now it's now like most of these chats, like probably most of your group chats are, oh, my God, did you see that tweet? And you should tweet that.

[Max Tani]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Or. But also a large amount of like this gust with Taylor Lorenz, I feel.

[Ben Smith]

Like that, like, yeah, if you, That's a classic example. If you ever got a sense of like, why are all the, like, you can like Taylor Lorenz's journalism. You cannot like it. But if you ever get a sense of like, those tech guys were like, really like, you did feel like, wow, they must all be talking about her and obsessing about her in some secret place, given how developed their theories and hatred is. That was. That was the secret place.

[Sam Stein]

But to your point, Max, there's There's been multiple. I mean, it's fairly regularly where I see like a bunch of stuff on Twitter that seems almost coordinated because they're all harping on the same story or the same tweet or the same viral moment. Now, it's not necessarily from that high level, so maybe it's not from the chats, but there does seem to be a fair bit of sort of like, look at this. And then everyone disperses to the public.

[Max Tani]

It's just the same way in which you sometimes workshop a tweet with your friends in the chat. Some of my best. Some of my best posts comes from dropping something that's. That's good and do a chat, and.

[Sam Stein]

I'm like, yeah, I guess enough. I always run it on.

[Max Tani]

Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. I feel like I've stopped a few. I feel like I've stopped a few.

[Ben Smith]

Good.

[Max Tani]

Sam Stein.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, my God. You have saved me on occasion. Maybe they would have done better. I don't know.

[Ben Smith]

No, I don't do that. That must. I think I'm a crazy. I just never think. I just post. Post first.

[Sam Stein]

Just go straight for it.

[Max Tani]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

All right, well, thank you, guys. I appreciate it. I will just say if you're watching this and if you. You're in one of these chats, pull a Jeffrey Goldberg. Add me in. Happy to just lurk. Offer some opinions on New Haven Pizza every now and then. Maybe talk NBA playoffs, but that's it. Max, Donnie, Ben Smith, both the semaphore. Read the piece. It is the group chats that changed America.

[Ben Smith]

And listen to our podcast.

[Max Tani]

I gotta plug that Mix Signals podcast, hosted by Ben Smith and me.

[Sam Stein]

Mix Signals podcast. I expect an invite on. Okay. This is reciprocal. All right, take care, guys. Appreciate it.