Bulwark Takes — "Leaked Charlie Kirk Messages Spark Rift Inside Turning Point USA"

Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Sam Stein
Guest: Will Sommer (Author of “False Flag”)

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the fallout within Turning Point USA after the assassination of its founder, Charlie Kirk. Sam Stein and Will Sommer unpack newly leaked text messages attributed to Kirk, the conspiracy theories swirling in right-wing circles, the resulting split in the organization, and the broader ramifications for MAGA-aligned politics. With wit and sharp analysis, they examine how these controversies expose both fractures in the movement and the challenges of leading in this contentious space.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Charlie Kirk Text Message Leak and Turning Point USA Infighting

• Background: Charlie Kirk's legacy is under intense scrutiny after his assassination. His longtime friend and former Turning Point associate, Candace Owens, emerges as a central figure pushing conspiracy theories about Israel's involvement.
  • Sam Stein: “This is a really unsavory one. It kind of made me uncomfortable to sift through it, but there's some broader significance that I think makes it materially important.” (00:51)
• Content of the Leak:
  • Candace Owens leaks text messages allegedly from Kirk, showing him voicing frustration with Jewish donors—specifically, “Jewish donors play into all the stereotypes. I cannot and will not be bullied like this, leaving me no choice but to leave the pro Israel…”
  • Turning Point USA confirms the texts are real, which heightens internal tensions.
    • Will Sommer: “Turning Point USA confirmed it's real. It's real.” (02:40)
• Conspiracy Theories & Manipulation:
  • Owens suggests Israel had motive, which furthers wild conspiracy narratives rejected by those closest to Kirk.
  • The hosts discuss how these leaks and narratives are being manipulated within the right, sometimes “distracting from what should be the kind of the big crush the left moment.” (04:26)

2. Ramifications Within the MAGA Sphere

• Factionalism in Turning Point USA:
  • Organization scrambles to manage narrative, trying to turn the leaks to their advantage—but with limited success.
• Grassroots Impact:
  • Anecdotes about pro-TPUSA parents and supporters reassessing their commitment due to conspiracy-fueled rumors.
    • Will Sommer: "Now all the moms are convinced that Turning Point is covering up or was involved in the assassination..." (05:36)
    • Sam Stein quips, "I might just have to pocket it."—referring to redirected donation money due to doubts about Turning Point. (06:03)

3. Secondary Scandals and Upstart Leaders

• Brylan Hollyhand’s Misadventures
  • 21-year-old Brylan Hollyhand tries to step into Kirk's shoes but fails spectacularly, facing heckles for his moderate immigration stance during campus events.
    • Will Sommer: “He is just getting knocked around by these guys who are saying, yeah, all those immigrant voters are going to be Democrats. So how do you explain that?...” (09:15)
    • Sam Stein: "He's like, we're a melting pot... And they just, like, lost it." (09:30)

4. Todd Blanche and MAGA’s Never-ending Discontent

• Persistent MAGA Displeasure:
  • Trump’s lawyer Todd Blanche becomes the latest scapegoat within the movement, targeted by hardliners for failing to secure (impossible) results.
    • Will Sommer: “There’s a thriving Fire Todd Blanche movement on the right. They’re basically blaming him for not getting, you know, January six reparations…” (10:26)
• The Tina Peters Saga:
  • MAGA activists concoct elaborate schemes to free Tina Peters, a county clerk considered a martyr after being convicted for tampering with voting machines.
    • Will Sommer: “…her lawyer... is claiming that Todd Blanche is quashing this sort of Keystone Cops scheme to rescue Tina Peters.” (11:18)
• On working with MAGA:
  • Sam Stein: “This is like the classic of working with MAGA—there’s no amount of crazy that’ll ever be satisfactory. There’s always going to be another thing...” (12:14)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Candace Owens and the Conspiracies:
  • Will Sommer: “Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson to a lesser extent are throwing up what I think... more rational people on the right recognize as kind of a smokescreen...” (04:26)
• On Brylan Hollyhand:
  • Sam Stein: “I'm sorry, I don't want to laugh at the kid for his name, but he does ride around in a private jet and wears Masters-embroidered golf shirts.” (08:12)
  • Will Sommer: “He's bringing kind of like Jeb Bush... Even the guy holding the mic, who you would think would be sympathetic to him, he's just... he's just shaking his head.” (09:34)
• On the MAGA Movement’s Internal Drama:
  • Sam Stein: “There’s no amount of crazy they'll ever be satisfactory... you're just gonna have to sell your soul time and time again.” (12:14)
  • Will Sommer: “Maybe he’s wishing he was back interviewing Ghislaine [Maxwell] when life was simpler.” (12:36)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:51 – Introduction to the Kirk text leaks/conspiracy context
• 01:27–02:49 – Candace Owens’ involvement and Turning Point’s reaction
• 03:56–04:26 – Impact of conspiracy theories and organizational infighting
• 05:36–06:03 – Anecdotes illustrating grassroots confusion/mistrust
• 08:05–09:41 – Brylan Hollyhand’s failed leadership attempts and campus appearance
• 10:26–11:48 – Todd Blanche as scapegoat, the Tina Peters plot
• 12:14–12:36 – Reflections on MAGA’s unstable leadership expectations

Overall Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is brisk, wry, and occasionally darkly humorous, in keeping with The Bulwark’s approach to right-wing politics. Both hosts display skepticism about the ongoing conspiracy churn and point out how these rifts are not only embarrassing for Turning Point USA but also destabilizing for the wider movement.

Will Sommer and Sam Stein offer a clear-eyed look at the messy scramble for power and meaning in the wake of Kirk’s death. For listeners, it’s a candid window into how messaging, personalities, and scandal shape the day-to-day chaos of MAGA politics.