Leaked Charlie Kirk Messages Spark Rift Inside Turning Point USA

Summary

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Bulwark Takes — "Leaked Charlie Kirk Messages Spark Rift Inside Turning Point USA"

Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Sam Stein
Guest: Will Sommer (Author of “False Flag”)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the fallout within Turning Point USA after the assassination of its founder, Charlie Kirk. Sam Stein and Will Sommer unpack newly leaked text messages attributed to Kirk, the conspiracy theories swirling in right-wing circles, the resulting split in the organization, and the broader ramifications for MAGA-aligned politics. With wit and sharp analysis, they examine how these controversies expose both fractures in the movement and the challenges of leading in this contentious space.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Charlie Kirk Text Message Leak and Turning Point USA Infighting

• Background: Charlie Kirk's legacy is under intense scrutiny after his assassination. His longtime friend and former Turning Point associate, Candace Owens, emerges as a central figure pushing conspiracy theories about Israel's involvement.
  • Sam Stein: “This is a really unsavory one. It kind of made me uncomfortable to sift through it, but there's some broader significance that I think makes it materially important.” (00:51)
• Content of the Leak:
  • Candace Owens leaks text messages allegedly from Kirk, showing him voicing frustration with Jewish donors—specifically, “Jewish donors play into all the stereotypes. I cannot and will not be bullied like this, leaving me no choice but to leave the pro Israel…”
  • Turning Point USA confirms the texts are real, which heightens internal tensions.
    • Will Sommer: “Turning Point USA confirmed it's real. It's real.” (02:40)
• Conspiracy Theories & Manipulation:
  • Owens suggests Israel had motive, which furthers wild conspiracy narratives rejected by those closest to Kirk.
  • The hosts discuss how these leaks and narratives are being manipulated within the right, sometimes “distracting from what should be the kind of the big crush the left moment.” (04:26)

2. Ramifications Within the MAGA Sphere

• Factionalism in Turning Point USA:
  • Organization scrambles to manage narrative, trying to turn the leaks to their advantage—but with limited success.
• Grassroots Impact:
  • Anecdotes about pro-TPUSA parents and supporters reassessing their commitment due to conspiracy-fueled rumors.
    • Will Sommer: "Now all the moms are convinced that Turning Point is covering up or was involved in the assassination..." (05:36)
    • Sam Stein quips, "I might just have to pocket it."—referring to redirected donation money due to doubts about Turning Point. (06:03)

3. Secondary Scandals and Upstart Leaders

• Brylan Hollyhand’s Misadventures
  • 21-year-old Brylan Hollyhand tries to step into Kirk's shoes but fails spectacularly, facing heckles for his moderate immigration stance during campus events.
    • Will Sommer: “He is just getting knocked around by these guys who are saying, yeah, all those immigrant voters are going to be Democrats. So how do you explain that?...” (09:15)
    • Sam Stein: "He's like, we're a melting pot... And they just, like, lost it." (09:30)

4. Todd Blanche and MAGA’s Never-ending Discontent

• Persistent MAGA Displeasure:
  • Trump’s lawyer Todd Blanche becomes the latest scapegoat within the movement, targeted by hardliners for failing to secure (impossible) results.
    • Will Sommer: “There’s a thriving Fire Todd Blanche movement on the right. They’re basically blaming him for not getting, you know, January six reparations…” (10:26)
• The Tina Peters Saga:
  • MAGA activists concoct elaborate schemes to free Tina Peters, a county clerk considered a martyr after being convicted for tampering with voting machines.
    • Will Sommer: “…her lawyer... is claiming that Todd Blanche is quashing this sort of Keystone Cops scheme to rescue Tina Peters.” (11:18)
• On working with MAGA:
  • Sam Stein: “This is like the classic of working with MAGA—there’s no amount of crazy that’ll ever be satisfactory. There’s always going to be another thing...” (12:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Candace Owens and the Conspiracies:
  • Will Sommer: “Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson to a lesser extent are throwing up what I think... more rational people on the right recognize as kind of a smokescreen...” (04:26)
• On Brylan Hollyhand:
  • Sam Stein: “I'm sorry, I don't want to laugh at the kid for his name, but he does ride around in a private jet and wears Masters-embroidered golf shirts.” (08:12)
  • Will Sommer: “He's bringing kind of like Jeb Bush... Even the guy holding the mic, who you would think would be sympathetic to him, he's just... he's just shaking his head.” (09:34)
• On the MAGA Movement’s Internal Drama:
  • Sam Stein: “There’s no amount of crazy they'll ever be satisfactory... you're just gonna have to sell your soul time and time again.” (12:14)
  • Will Sommer: “Maybe he’s wishing he was back interviewing Ghislaine [Maxwell] when life was simpler.” (12:36)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:51 – Introduction to the Kirk text leaks/conspiracy context
• 01:27–02:49 – Candace Owens’ involvement and Turning Point’s reaction
• 03:56–04:26 – Impact of conspiracy theories and organizational infighting
• 05:36–06:03 – Anecdotes illustrating grassroots confusion/mistrust
• 08:05–09:41 – Brylan Hollyhand’s failed leadership attempts and campus appearance
• 10:26–11:48 – Todd Blanche as scapegoat, the Tina Peters plot
• 12:14–12:36 – Reflections on MAGA’s unstable leadership expectations

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is brisk, wry, and occasionally darkly humorous, in keeping with The Bulwark’s approach to right-wing politics. Both hosts display skepticism about the ongoing conspiracy churn and point out how these rifts are not only embarrassing for Turning Point USA but also destabilizing for the wider movement.

Will Sommer and Sam Stein offer a clear-eyed look at the messy scramble for power and meaning in the wake of Kirk’s death. For listeners, it’s a candid window into how messaging, personalities, and scandal shape the day-to-day chaos of MAGA politics.

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Transcript

[Sarah]

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[Will Sommer]

Break up with bland breakfast and taste AM PM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with ktree eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AMPM Too much Good stuff.

[Sam Stein]

Hey, everybody, it's me, Sam Stein, back with my buddy Will Sommer, author of False Flag, one of the most incredibly insightful, significant, important journalistic endeavors of the past quarter century, I've been told. Is that about right?

[Will Sommer]

Music to my ears. I might have gone for the past hundred years, but yeah, sure, quarter century is modest, I suppose.

[Sam Stein]

All right, so, well, we're going to be talking about a potpourri of stories because there's a lot of weird shit happening out there and you're the guy who explains weird shit to me. I want to start with these Charlie Kirk texts. This is a really unsavory one. It kind of made me uncomfortable to sift through it, but there's some broader significance that I think makes it materially important. Explain what exactly is going on, because there's. It comes in this context of like a larger fight over his legacy and whether or not he had been in the middle of some political and even religious conversions towards the end of his life. Sure.

[Will Sommer]

So the background here is that Charlie Kirk, or after his assassination, as you said, there's been this big fight over his legacy. And one of the key players here has been his. His friend, former Turning Point USA employee Candace Owens, who's now a mega popular YouTuber. And basically she.

[Sam Stein]

Before even I think we all know who she is. Okay, just to be clear, I appreciate that.

[Will Sommer]

So even before the funeral, she went out and started saying, you know, I think there's these conspiracies. You know, I. He was, before he died, he was about to turn on Israel. And there's kind of this implication Israel, you know, committed the assassination. And, and so there's been a lot of back and forth about this. This letter came out where he was like to. To Benjamin Netanyahu, where he was very complimentary. And basically people were saying, you know, Candace, you don't have the goods. It's over for you. And then she came out with this text message on Monday and basically it's a. It's A conversation with Charlie Kirk and some other donors. And basically he says that, as she had said in the past, that donors were getting mad at him for hanging out with people like Tucker Carlson, who's also very critical of Israel. And at one point, Charlie Kirk says Jewish donors play into all the stereotypes. I cannot and will not be bullied like this, leaving me no choice but to leave the pro Israel.

[Sam Stein]

Cause it seems a little bit too conveniently phrased, to be honest.

[Will Sommer]

Well, Turning Point USA confirmed it's real. It's real.

[Sam Stein]

It's real. Yeah, they're real.

[Will Sommer]

Okay. Yes. Yeah, yeah. The Turning Point spokesman confirmed that they're real.

[Sam Stein]

I'm not even going to get into what the stereotypes are, but I think.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, kind of a crazy. It's sort of that that aspect hasn't really been remarked upon a lot as a result of this. But I mean, that's like if you imagine.

[Sam Stein]

I think what he means is they care only about Israel and are going to put the screws to him because he's with Tucker Carlson, who has been critical of Israel. And I think in the text, which I didn't realize had been confirmed as authentic, he says he's lost money from a prominent donor because he won't disavow Tucker. So that's. That. Did Candace. So how did Candace. Do we know if Candace got her hands on these texts? Like, what is the origin story here?

[Will Sommer]

So this is interesting. I mean, on one hand, this does appear to be a pretty large group chat with people. Basically. I think probably someone in that group leaked it to her. At the same time, Turning Point USA said, well, we gave this information to the government right after the assassination because we wanted to explore all avenues. And there's sort of a, you know, now people are saying, you know, well, maybe someone in the government leaked it to Candace. I mean, she, she has said, you know, essentially implied that she got it through other means.

[Sam Stein]

But even that's like kind of loaded because there's this, you know, ever present conspiracy theory that Israel was responsible for his assassination, which has been disavowed by people close to him. But I mean, that would feed into this, right?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean. Oh, certainly the idea that they handed over these messages, they handed over these.

[Sam Stein]

To like, maybe, you know, suggest that in fact it was Israel, you know.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, do you ever, like, I don't know, do you feel like. It feels like a little unsavory kind of sifting through this stuff, doesn't it?

[Will Sommer]

I mean, I, I think it does. I mean, it's very kind of macabre and saying, you know, and, and this gets to kind of the larger issue here, which is the right has correctly realized that they have a lot of political capital from this assassination. And, and people like Stephen Miller have been essentially saying, you know, we're going to use this to crush the left. We're going to go after these so called networks, whatever. But meanwhile, Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson to a lesser extent are throwing up what I think two sort of more rational people on the right recognize as kind of a smokescreen and they're distracting from what should be the kind of the big crush the left moment. I think this is becoming a real issue for Turning Point usa. They, you know, basically they're kind of being led around by Candace Owens here. And now they're coming out and saying, oh yeah, they said the texts are out and they're real. And actually we're really glad they're they're out now because, you know, now we can, we can really talk about it.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I mean, they're good. I'm very curious, like when TPUSA reconvenes in whatever new capacity they're going to have, I mean, one of the fault line issues that I'm going to be looking for is what do they say about Israel? I mean, there is a real divide within the ranks over the US Israel alliance here.

[Will Sommer]

Well, and just anecdotally, I mean, I'm seeing examples of a woman who said she was kicked out of a mom's Facebook group because they had ordered a bunch of Turning Point USA shirts out after the assassination. And then, but now all the moms are convinced that Turning Point is covering up or was involved in the assassination because of Candace. So now they're, you know, they're canceling the orders. This guy who sold a bunch of copies of a painting of Charlie Kirk he made, he said, well, I was going to donate the profits to Turning Point, but now that I think, you know, they need to answer, what about their involvement in his murder?

[Sam Stein]

I might just have to pocket it. Yeah, that's responsible choice here. Gotta just be sure about where that money's going first. So why not? To me, Bulwark Takes is sponsored by Soul. After a long day, I used to pour a glass of, you know, Pino, maybe a Sauvignon Blanc, a Riesling if I was getting really crazy. But lately I've been reaching out for souls out of office gummies and drinks instead. This is my favorite federally legal way to unwind and ease into the evening and I do it all without the alcohol or the next day. Fog Sole is a wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and that should be easy. Sole specializes in delicious hemp derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Their best selling out of Office Gummies were designed to provide a mild relaxing buzz that gives you a little lift and it enhances your creativity and relaxation. With five different strengths, you can tailor the dose to fit your vibe from a gentle 1.5mg microdose. Good for evening parenting, if I do say so, to their newest 15 milligram gummy for a more elevated experience. And if you like their out of Office gummies, try their new out of Office Beverage, a refreshing alcohol free alternative that's perfect for winding down on the couch or socializing with friends. Sol also has a variety of products specifically designed to help you get a better night's rest, including their top selling Sleepy Gummies. It's a fan favorite for deep restorative sleep. I need those. I got to have those. Bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to Seoul today. Right now, Soul is offering our audience 30% off your entire order. 30% off. Can't beat it. Go to GetSoul.com and use the code Bulwark Takes. That's GetSold.com promo code Bulwark Takes for 30% off. The other thing that I hadn't planned on bringing up, but since it's related, is that 21 year old dude who wanted to be the TP, the Charlie Kirk air. What's his name?

[Will Sommer]

Brylan Bryland Hollyhand of House Tully.

[Sam Stein]

I'm sorry, I don't want to laugh at the kid for his name, but he does ride around in a private jet and wears Masters embroiled golf shirts. He went out and was doing the rounds and seemed to have a little struggle with it, let's put it that way.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, so Brian Hollihan is this guy who kind of aspires to be the new Charlie Kirk, even though Turning Point has kind of disowned him and suggested he was overstating the level of his connection there. But basically, as soon as the original Brian Hollyhan thing started about a week ago, Nick Fuentes, who's famous for kind of dogging Charlie Kirk at events with his followers, he said, you know, ooh, I can't wait till a groiper gets his hands. One of his followers on Bryon Hollyhand, they're going to frick. They're going to Frick us A. You know, and indeed, we have this video of Brian Hollyhand at one of his campus tours, and basically, he's bringing kind of like Jeb Bush.

[Sam Stein]

He's an idiot. Yeah. He's like, oh, yeah, we need to, like, you know, have real legal immigration to this country. Like, which, yeah. Obviously rational, but you're not going to know your audience, buddy. Like, come on.

[Will Sommer]

Yes. And so, I mean, he is just getting knocked around by these guys who are saying, yeah, all those immigrant voters are going to be Democrats. So how do you explain that? And he goes, well, yeah, that's true. They say, won't that be the end of the Republican Party? He goes, yeah, but, you know, we got to keep the borders open.

[Sam Stein]

He's like, we're a melting pot. We're found it as a melting pot. And they just, like, lost it.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah. I mean, everyone involved, even the guy holding the mic, who you would think would be sympathetic to him, he's just. He's just shaking his head.

[Sam Stein]

Kid, get back on the private jet. Put on your master. Scramble the chat.

[Will Sommer]

I gotta go.

[Sam Stein]

Hurry up, whatever your name is. Brian Moynihan. No, what is it? Brian, Braylon, Bryland, Holly Brawley and Hollyhan. Get. Get back on your jet. All right, last one. Todd Blanche. I mean, it's like, I have to chuckle at this one, because the guy, like, literally is Donald Trump's lawyer. Like, he's his henchman, and that's just not good enough anymore because there's, like, no extent of the. You have to, like, he's like Andy Dufresne and Shawshank, except when he gets the other side of the people are like, boo. Go back. He's been clawing his way through, and he can't even get love from maga. What's going on here?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, so this is the deputy attorney general probably most famous for kind of shepherding the very friendly Ghislaine Maxwell interview.

[Sam Stein]

He literally had to, like, play nice with a sex crimes convict. Like, what the fuck?

[Will Sommer]

Crazy. So now there's a. There's a thriving Fire Todd Blanche movement on the right. Um, they're basically blaming him for not getting, you know, January six reparations. And most importantly, they think he's going that they have a way to free a woman named Tina Peters, who is a Colorado elections clerk who got very involved in, like, voter fraud investigations in 2020 and is now serving nine years in prison for tampering with voting machines. And because she's on state charges, she can't be pardoned and so she's like a real martyr to the MAGA movement and they want to get her out so bad, but they definitely.

[Sam Stein]

I like, I like the thing that they've came. They've come up with the scheme to get her federal prison. Explain that one.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, so they think that they could hold her as a witness in and say, well, she needs to be in federal custody because she's a witness, I don't know, in the investigation of the real election fraud of 2020. And so her lawyer, Peter Tickton, who, weirdly enough was Donald Trump's roommate in Born, or, excuse me, his classmate in military school, he is claiming that Todd Blanche is. Is quashing this sort of Keystone Cops scheme to rescue Tina Peters.

[Sam Stein]

All right, so look, I don't want to, like, say I, I'm sympathetic to Todd Blanche because he dug his own grave proverbially here, but, like, you have to imagine this guy at one point in his life, you know, probably a fairly standard kind of like cosmopolitan, you know, conservative lawyer who now has to deal or not chose to deal and is now dealing with all these insane human beings, and it's never going to be good enough. And this is like the classic of working with MAGA is like, there's no amount of crazy they'll ever be satisfactory. There's always going to be another thing that people are going to be mad about, and you're just gonna have to sell your soul time and time again. I think he'll survive because Trump likes him and he literally is Trump's lawyer, or was. So he'll survive. But is this fun? Do you think this is fun for him?

[Will Sommer]

No, I don't think so. I mean, maybe he's wishing he was back interviewing Ghislaine when. When life was simpler.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, probably. All right, man, well, look, it's Tuesday. It's late. I appreciate you doing this. You cover a lot of weird ground. We have to catch up every now and then to cover it, too. So thank you for doing this. And everyone should subscribe to Will's False Flag newsletter. It's an essential read. I was joking about it being the most essential read of last quarter century. I meant half century. It's that important. So please.

[Will Sommer]

Thank you. Sam Feathers there?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, someone has to. All right, well, appreciate buddy talk to you.