← Bulwark Takes
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B
Gain super flings for next level laundry. Hey, everybody, it's Tim O. From the Bulwark. We are back with my old friend Julie K. Brown, investigative journalist for the Miami Herald, author of Perversion of Justice, A Jeffrey Epstein story. She has been the top reporter on this story for many years now. We won't say how many years. Too many. We don't want to age anybody. But you've been on this beat talking to the victims for a long time. And I want to talk about your latest story for the Miami Herald. Leaked email show Joanne Maxwell is working on a commutation application from her new minimum security prison. It's a pretty outrageous story. But Julie, thanks for coming back.
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C
Sure, thanks for having me.
- [01:38]
B
What's the nuts of what the situation is with Maxwell there in Texas?
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C
It's just outrageous on, on so many levels, you know, that, you know, she could get. We have this woman who is convicted of sexual trafficking of a child. Okay. And, and probably multiple based on the testimony that many of these victims have given. She wasn't just his Jeffrey Epstein's assistant. She participated in a lot of this abuse. She was the person that recruited these girls and groomed them. And, and as I said, just was part of the whole sexual abuse of these girls. So to think that first of all that she would be able to be transferred into, you know, this kind of cushy club fed is outrageous in of itself. And now we are learning that she is getting all these amenities and special treatment and food when she wants it, gets to use the showers when she wants it. And she has even emailed people that some of her emails have been leaked where she's, you know, sort of saying how wonderful this whole thing is. She Feels like Alice in Wonderland now at this new prison.
- [02:56]
B
And I want to get into some of the details of this, but just, you know, since you mentioned it, for the backstory and the fact that she's in this prison at all, and there is nobody in the entire federal prison system who has been convicted of the types of sex crimes that she has been convicted of. That is, in a situation like that, she is a single outlier at this prison, as far as. As far as we know. Is that. That right?
- [03:19]
C
Yeah. And I would imagine that there's probably a lot of people that have committed similar crimes who are now saying. Calling their lawyers and saying, hey, I want what she has. If she's allowed to have this kind of treatment, why can't I get this treatment? I mean, it is just, you know, another example of how our criminal justice system seems to, you know, have. Have a penchant for giving people with power influence a better deal.
- [03:49]
B
Well, so part of the story is that at Camp Bryan, which is the name of this Club Fed that she's at, the warden has been, I guess, helping her with our commutation application. In a letter from Jamie Raskin to the administration, he says that one of the top officials at the prison said that he is, quote, sick of having to be Maxwell's bitch and that she is, like, demanding that the staff there do these types of favors for her. Like, how does that even. I. It's, like, hard to even imagine. I can at least understand how she got into the prison. Right. I guess you got to deal with Todd Blanche. We could talk about that, what the other possibilities could be, if there are any. But how do you. How once she is in there, is she now bossing people around? Like, what could possibly explain that?
- [04:35]
C
Well, she. She obviously has friends in high places. I mean, it just. There is nothing to explain it. I've covered prisons for a very long time, and these kinds of things just don't happen in prison unless you're. I'll be honest, the only time I've seen it happen in prison is when somebody's being paid off or if you have some information on someone that they don't want to get out. I mean, it just doesn't happen anywhere in America that people get this kind of treatment without some Having some kind of a godfather or godmother somewhere who is helping you.
- [05:08]
B
So the other. The rest of the story is she's getting computers in that she's using to conduct potentially unmonitored communications, which is not allowed. Again, that her attorney is saying that she's gonna send stuff through the warden. I mean, I guess I would be hoping that people on Capitol Hill would be trying to get ahold of this warden and understand why they are giving her this treatment.
- [05:35]
C
Well, I know that they've already, members of Congress have already written to the warden to ask some of these questions from, as of yesterday, from what I understand, they haven't had any answers given to their questions. I don't know if there is any mechanism that would force the warden to say, here's why, here's what I'm doing and here's why I don't feel like there is any accountability involving this case at all. And just makes, I think, the public less, you know, confident in its, in its government because this is smells, you know, and it, and it sounds corrupt.
- [06:15]
B
Yeah. In a subpoena, I guess. And you would think that the Republicans that run Texas and that have oversight of this on the Hill would like, want to understand, you know, given what they've said of all these years about the Epstein cover up, why Joanne Maxwell is getting this treatment and she's at this facility that has yoga, it has a puppy program, and it's ridiculous. It's just outrageous altogether. And it is, I guess, of a piece with what we're seeing. And I want to ask you about that as well, with the attempt to cover up the release of some of the Epstein files, at least we've seen over on the House. But you know, I mean, is there, have you heard, besides Thomas Massie and I guess Marjorie Taylor Greene, there's like no other evidence that the Republicans who actually have the power in Washington, D.C. and in Texas are trying to do anything here.
- [07:01]
C
You know, I also quite frankly, am skeptical about even the Democrats here because I feel like they're not looking at the right things, to be honest with you. I feel like they are so focused on one thing, let's release the Epstein files, that they're not focusing on really getting to the truth. They're treating it more like a political issue than a crime. What should be investigated is exactly how this happened. And, and what's happening right now, quite frankly, because it's sort of is following the pattern that happened with Epstein because Epstein, as we know, got a essential, essentially initially got away with his crimes. And, and you know, he manipulated the criminal justice system in order to lower or hide some of the extent of his crime. So he, he got less of a sentence in her case. It sounds like she is dangling something out there that she has over somebody. I'm not saying it's Trump. I don't know who it is. It could be just a lot of important people. And I think that that's why she's able to, to get this kind of favoritism in prison.
- [08:16]
B
I think having skepticism about how the Democrats handling this is totally fair, especially given kind of how Mia, a lot of them were for years on this question. And, and I do think it's something when I have Democrats on, I ask them about, like I, because, you know, they'll have limited bandwidth, you know, if they get back in power, even if they win next year. Right. Like, what are you going to investigate? Like, are you going to investigate the crypto corruption? Are you going to investigate the Epstein cover up? Right. And I think it' to, to put pressure on them on that. I know the one thing that they are talking about now is this release, this discharge petition, which seems like it may go through now that the 218th vote has been seated. The congresswoman from Arizona. What, what is your. And if, when you hear reports about what this is, like these files that are over there, you know, that says, I guess it's the unclassified records, communications from the, that are in the Justice Department's possession, May flight, a lot of this stuff's already out there, flight logs, travel records. Is your sense that they have, is there anything in particular that you think that they, that could be released that that would, would shed new light at least with regards to the documents that, that the House is talking about with the discharge petition?
- [09:24]
C
Well, you know, initially I questioned whether there was really anything major, you know, or new in some of these documents because, you know, a lot of these, there was massive number of lawsuits surrounding Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell with massive amount of discovery of material. And we do know some names of some of the men that have been accused by some of the victims of this. But other beyond that, it didn't seem like the Justice Department actually dug into it enough, in my view. So I question whether they would even have information in these files that would be revelatory. But because of the way the Trump administration has handled this so far, I've been sort of thinking, what the heck is in there? You know, because from everything that I know, I mean, just the way this has been handled doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, there's a million other ways he could have, the administration could have handled this, and instead they've just sort of said, no, nothing to see here, which automatically makes everyone suspicious that there is something to be there.
- [10:40]
B
Yeah. And we know that there are at least some mentions of trust. Trump there again, we know they had friendships. This isn't to say there's mentions of criminal activity, but, like, because they've said it. I, like they said that they had the FBI officials that were going through these files flag relevant names, including his, and there's reporting that says they have a share file. And you know, what that could be? I don't know. I've. I have people ask sometimes we have on Michael Wolf, and Michael Wolf is, at the time has been like. Has been a bit of a fabulous. He's had some, you know, issues with, you know, the. Whether he's. The reporting he's been putting out is factual, though he's also had some factual reporting. So these are tough things to tell. But, I mean, he's out there and he said that he's seen video that is in these files that is Trump dancing with topless young girls. I mean, like, what. Do you have any thoughts on what the possibilities are?
- [11:26]
C
You know, every time I hear his reports, I, I quite frankly turn him up louder because I. It's always something like, wow, that's a new one. I haven't heard that one before. So, I mean, I don't know. I'm not saying he's, you know, wrong or incorrect, but I haven't seen any evidence. You know, there's an awful lot of people. I'm not saying Michael Wolf is in this category, but I see this every day. There are people all over the place who just put stuff out there that is absolutely wrong. And then they have, you know, 500 people make comments. Oh, I knew it. I knew it. You know, he was intelligent, asset. He worked for the C. Epstein worked for the CIA. And, And I just. This story has so many, so many legs and so many people that, that think they know the story, that it's. It's just taken on a life of its own. I try to really follow what I know, you know, the facts that I know. And the facts. When I say the facts that I know, it's based on my reporting. It's based on. If it's based on other people's reporting, then I look at their reporting to see if that's based on material like court records. So I'm just. I try to be very careful with what I say, you know, because this story, just, like I said, there's so much out there that's wrong.
- [12:57]
B
You've done so much reporting with the victims and just spending all this time with them. And look, it's on the book that people should go check out. And a lot of it is just really heartbreaking. And I just wonder, I don't know, have you been in communication with the victims recently and how they feel about all this? I mean, like, I could understand maybe there's a moment of like, oh, maybe this will be, you've had so many of these moments where maybe this will be a big breakthrough where we'll finally get to know what really happened, what the truth was. And, and yet once again, this time it's getting drug out. It's been, it's become a political football now. Jill and Maxwell is in this Club Fed. I'm just wondering what you're hearing from, from the victims.
- [13:37]
C
You know, the one thing that I know is that they talk to each other. They have group chats, you know, in groups together. And I've been in, you know, I don't comment on them, I just sort of listen. I think that's the main thing that's important is to just listen. Sometimes it's better than asking questions. And from what I hear, they are, they are still resolved to get to the bottom of this and to, to make others that were involved accountable. But it's, it's like hitting their head against the wall in a lot of cases because our government, the people that are supposed to be the people who are entrusted with getting to the truth and holding people accountable aren't really doing that. And I think that's what's so disheartening for them and for us, you know, in the, in journalism who also want the truth to come out. I think, as I said, I, I think that they, you know, think it's become sort of a political football. Like let's try to nail, you know, Trump instead of, let's try to find out exactly what happened. And, and if, if Trump was involved, so be it. But they don't feel like that should be the goal. The goal should be let's find out what happened.
- [14:55]
B
And I guess at this point, again, who the hell knows the extent of what. I mean, Trump's behavior was horrible for many decades. Like what it is exactly with regards to these files. He is involved at this point just within the context of the COVID up, because, I mean, I don't know what he's covering up or like he's covering up something at this point.
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C
True, that's true. And also to some degree, he's negating their feelings by calling it a hoax. They're, you know, I think that that has them quite disturbed that he keeps Using the word hoax or. Why are we still talking about this? You know, we're still talking about it because it was a crime and nobody wants to do anything to, to, to hold those accountable who were involved. So, yeah, that's absolutely among their frustrations.
- [15:47]
B
So anything else out there you're monitoring right now with the story? And there's so much.
- [15:51]
C
There's. Every day there's a new document dump. You know, I, I'm really monitoring where these leaks are coming from. And to be honest with you, I suspect they're coming from Maxwell's camp. And I do suspect that the whole thing that happened with Prince Andrew losing his titles, I suspect that that was a message that was coming from her camp saying, you know, we have this stuff, we have information and this is, you know, they sent a message there where they essentially, you know, these emails that were, you know, some of them anyway, that came out showed that he was a lot closer to Epsteini than after he said he had broke it off from him. I'm talking about Prince Andrew. So they were quite damaging to him. So who knows what other information is out there. And that's sort of like every day. I feel like journalists, myself included, are bracing for what's going to come out next.
- [16:51]
B
That's interesting. So the idea that in this, in this theory, I'm not saying it's your reporting, but it was Maxwell's camp putting out information to the idea as. Okay, well, we're trying to pressure folks so that you can get this commutation and it's part of the commutation plan. Like, we know that that's reporting actually that we know that they're trying to get this commutation.
- [17:10]
C
Right.
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B
And maybe some of these other leaks are a pressure campaign related to that.
- [17:14]
C
Well, and also, why is she getting this treatment? It sort of all ties together in a way when you really think about it, because there's no explanation at all for why she's getting this preferential treatment. So, you know, what does she know? Who is she talking to? Why is she getting this? I mean, it sort of follows the same. You know, as journalists, we, we sort of try to find patterns and things that try to tie things together. And one of the things that ties this together are some of these leaks, by the way, the majority of which happened when she got transferred to this Club Fed. We've seen a lot of leaks since that. So one has to wonder why.
- [18:01]
B
All right, Julie K. Brown, appreciate you always appreciate your reporting. And like you said, there's more stuff happening all the time, so I'm sure I'll be talking to you soon.
- [18:08]
C
Thank you.