LIVE REACTION: FBI Director Kash Patel Testifies Before the Senate Judiciary Committee

Summary

Bulwark Takes: LIVE REACTION—FBI Director Kash Patel Testifies Before the Senate Judiciary Committee

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Hosts: Sam Stein, Tim Miller, Chris Counahan
Date: September 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features the Bulwark team’s live, in-the-moment reactions to the ongoing Senate Judiciary Committee hearing featuring FBI Director Kash Patel. The hosts—Sam Stein, Tim Miller, and Chris Counahan—break down the motives behind Patel's testimony, the political theater on display, and the substantive issues raised, from the aftermath of the Kirk assassination to controversy surrounding Jeffrey Epstein records, the internal politics and firings at the FBI, and even the FBI’s physical fitness standards. The tone throughout is irreverent but engaged, blending policy analysis with sarcastic commentary and inside-the-Beltway banter.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Is Kash Patel Testifying?

Timestamps: 01:29–04:17

• The hosts puzzle over why Kash Patel, under the current administration, even bothers with such oversight hearings, given the administration’s notorious disregard for “norms.”
  • Tim Miller: “Why is he doing it? ... This administration across so many different areas, they are not interested in doing what past administrations have done, what people should have done.” (02:41)
  • Sam Stein theorizes that Patel wants to "perform for the boss," meaning Trump, citing Bondi’s Fox News appearances and the administration’s concern for political optics.
• Sarcasm foregrounds the discussion, with Tim framing the hearing as part of the administration's selective approach to tradition: “Maybe it’s just inertia, but … I think that Cash, like, wants to perform for the boss.” (04:03)

2. Political Rhetoric & the Kirk Assassination Aftermath

Timestamps: 04:50–09:27

• The hosts dissect partisan approaches to violence in the context of the Kirk assassination, highlighting contrasting Senate exchanges from Amy Klobuchar and Eric Schmidt.
  • Amy Klobuchar calls for less partisan finger-pointing; Eric Schmidt lambasts the left as uniquely extreme, ignoring right-wing violence.
    • Memorable quote: Chris Counahan channels Schmidt: “Check yourself and don't give me this both sides bullshit.” (06:29)
• Tim sharply criticizes the “ridiculousness of taking this moment” to rant about left-wing violence when “the president of the fucking United States is Donald Trump.” (08:43)
• The segment underscores the performative nature of such hearings and how senators use them for soundbites rather than oversight.

3. The Jeffrey Epstein Files: Deflection, Word Games & Accountability

Timestamps: 09:27–24:07

a. Throwing Acosta Under the Bus

• Kash Patel bluntly blames former US Attorney Alex Acosta for failures in the original Epstein case:
  • Patel: “The original sin in the Epstein case was the way it was initially brought by Mr. Acosta back in 2006.” (10:23)
• Chris Counahan summarizes Acosta’s controversial plea deal and resurgence in politics.

b. Who Else Did Epstein Traffic Victims To?

• Under questioning, Patel repeatedly insists, “There is no credible information … that he trafficked to other individuals." (13:01–13:14)
• The hosts are incredulous, noting multiple victim testimonies that contradict Patel, and highlighting Patel’s careful “word games” restricting his denial to “case files” rather than all FBI or government-collected information.
  • Tim Miller: “He’s playing this word game between files and case files that I don’t know if the senators caught it … but I think that is pretty telling.” (14:53)
• Sam Stein notes that Senator Kennedy flagged Patel’s evasions: “The issue is not going to go away … You're going to have to do more.” (15:51)

c. The Government’s (In)Action and Internal Politics

• Will points out Patel hasn’t even read all the Epstein files, despite his years of demands for full transparency.
  • Chris Counahan: “Maybe he should take a look at the files. Just a suggestion.” (16:07)
• Discussion turns to the lack of Democratic pressure on the issue; instead, they focus on alleged partisan firings at the FBI.
• The segment exposes both partisan posturing and genuine questions over transparency, particularly regarding notable names like Trump mentioned in the files.

4. Internal FBI Politics: Firings and Right-Wing Media Influence

Timestamps: 24:32–34:58

• A Times exposé reveals Patel’s administration at the FBI targeting agents based on (often incorrect) right-wing podcaster rumors: agents fired for supposed involvement in the Mar-a-Lago investigation—claims based on social media hearsay, not facts.
  • Chris Counahan: “They are very sensitive, clearly to this, this right wing media world. And I would say not in a good way.” (34:58)
• The figure of Kyle Seraphin, a fired ex-agent and persistent critic, looms large—he’s described as “living in Patel’s head, rent free.”
• Lawsuits and internal resentment are mounting within the ranks, with many career agents angry and demoralized.
  • Tim Miller: “If I was one of the guys on the side of the lawsuit, that would be an inflammatory remark … that would make me more likely to want to go even harder at Cash, either through the legal process or the media, etc.” (32:40)

5. The FBI’s Physical Fitness Standards and “Pull-Ups Gate”

Timestamps: 35:10–38:13

• The episode ends on a lighter (but telling) note: a heated exchange over whether FBI field agents need to do more pull-ups, spurred by Democratic Senator Hirono’s question about women’s ability to meet fitness requirements and Patel’s insistence on physical standards.
  • Tim: “The thing he was probably the most adamant about the whole hearing was that agents need to be able to do pull ups.” (36:22)
  • The hosts ridicule Patel’s recent “pull-ups video,” noting his questionable form and the odd spectacle of turning a part of FBI headquarters into a gym for showmanship.

6. Sartorial and Style Critique

Timestamps: 38:27–40:41

• The episode closes with sartorial critiques: Patel’s “fat knot” tie (apparently a Liverpool Football Club tie), unsuitably thin lapels, and his overall failure to project “FBI Director” gravitas.
  • Tim Miller: “My problem is with his face, not his outfit … He doesn’t have a face for the job.” (39:38, 40:02)
  • Sam: “He does. He doesn’t exude the sort of like, I'm above it all and I'm just gonna play it really cool and I'm not going to tell you anything. I'm gonna be kind of intimidating or. He doesn't have that.” (40:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the hearing’s necessity:
  “Why send their people to hearings? … Are they scared of Chuck Grassley?”
  — Tim Miller (03:15)
• On Eric Schmidt’s grandstanding:
  “To just like go on this rant that it’s only the left wing people that do violent rhetoric … when the president of the fucking United States is Donald Trump. It’s just so like appallingly obvious and ridiculous and shameful.”
  — Tim Miller (08:43)
• On the Epstein files word games:
  “He’s playing this word game between files and case files … I think that is pretty telling and I don’t know if that’s going to be a good enough answer.”
  — Tim Miller (14:53)
• On firing decisions made on podcast rumors:
  “They are very sensitive, clearly to this, this right wing media world. And I would say not in a good way.”
  — Chris Counahan (34:58)
• On the focus on fitness standards:
  “The thing he was probably the most adamant about the whole hearing was that agents need to be able to do pull ups.”
  — Tim Miller (36:22)
• On Patel’s style (and suitability) as FBI director:
  “He doesn’t have a face for the job. Trump likes people to come from central casting, and he doesn’t have the face for the job.”
  — Tim Miller (40:28)

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Summary Flow and Utility for Listeners

The conversation in this episode is sharp, freewheeling, and sharply critical of both sides' political theater. It exposes the performative aspect of D.C. oversight hearings, points out substantive risks to institutional integrity at the FBI, and highlights how partisans on both sides manipulate hearings for political gain. The hosts are particularly attentive to the ways in which right-wing media and personalities are influencing personnel decisions and shaping the narrative. The deep dive into Epstein-related word games, the critique of administrative double standards, and the discussion of internal morale at the FBI provide important context for listeners wishing to understand the stakes behind the headlines.

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Why is Patel Testifying? 01:29–04:17
• Political Rhetoric: Kirk Assassination Aftermath 04:50–09:27
• Epstein Files—Acosta’s Role 10:23–12:15
• Epstein Files—Trafficking Question 13:01–15:53
• Case Files vs. Full Files Wordplay 14:53
• Internal FBI Politics & Right-Wing Critic Influence 24:32–34:58
• Physical Fitness Standards (Pull-Ups) 35:10–38:13
• Style and Gravitas Discussion 38:27–40:41

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Tone and Takeaway

In their signature Bulwark fashion—irreverent, insightful, and occasionally cutting—the hosts offer a real-time postmortem on one of the most high-profile and performatively fraught hearings of the season. Their take: While the sizzle of the political spectacle is strong, the underlying substance—on issues of transparency, accountability, and stewardship of the most consequential investigative agency in the country—remains disturbingly weak.

Transcript

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[Sam Stein]

Hey guys. Me, Sam Stein managing out at the bulwark here. My bud, Tim Miller. We are in the midst of watching this Cash Patel hearing in front of the Senate judiciary committee. It's still going on, but I think we got the gist of it. I'm going to just miss you. To make sure I'm. Yeah, okay. It's still going on, but we got the gist of it. Basic background.

[Tim Miller]

Just like a big Tuesday between us. Just a couple of buddies, you know, we like to wake up on Tuesday morning, get some coffee, you know, watch Cash Patel do his BDI testimony in front of the Senate and just chitchat about it, you know, just like any other pair of compadres, you know. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

What a life. Who has it better than us?

[Tim Miller]

Let's talk about.

[Sam Stein]

First of all, you ra a lot of people. You raised an interesting question in our slack chat. Why the hell is Cash even up there? I'VE I. I mean, I know why there's oversight hearings. The Judiciary Committee has oversight over the FBI. You know, in theory, in a normal world, you know, you need to appeal to members of Congress so that they are good to you and fund your initiatives and things like that. But I guess I understood where you're coming from. Like, this administration doesn't really give a. What Congress does, so why send Cash up there at all?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's a. It's like, it's both. It's a sarcastic, legitimate question. Right? Like, why is he doing. You know, I think you have to.

[Sam Stein]

Is it sarcastic?

[Tim Miller]

Well, yeah, and it's. I was making a joke. But it's also legitimate. Right. It's like this. I think it's important to sometimes step back and say, well, this administration across so many different areas, they are not interested in doing what past administrations have done, what people should have done. You know, for example, after an assassination, every president in history before this would have tried to bring the country together, gone to the church, dialed down the temperature, this president and vice president doing exactly the opposite. That's just one example. But there are a million norms that they got that these guys have trampled over from Doge all the way down. So it's like, why send their people to hearings? I mean, the Republicans controlled the Senate. They're scared of Chuck Grassley. The Chuck Grassley is going to subpoena Cash and, you know, send the Senate cops over to the FBI to make sure that he testifies. I just. I don't know. And so then. Then once you consider that question, which is if these guys will stop doing business in normal. In other cases, you wonder, why do they do business as usual in this case? And maybe it's just inertia, but I think. And we'll see in these clips, it doesn't work for me, but I, I think that Cash, like, wants to perform for the boss. I. That's my legitimate.

[Sam Stein]

That was my. That's my explanation. Yeah, the boss, he. He knows he needs to be. And this is why Pam Bond, he's out there on Katie Miller's podcast and doing Fox News hits every two days and things like that. I mean, Cash wants.

[Tim Miller]

You think Trump is. Is live streaming Katie Miller's just absolutely unbearable podcast?

[Sam Stein]

I don't know if Trump said. I don't know if Trump listens, but.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe the clips say. They think that the clips for that podcast will be on Fox. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get on.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, exactly. Put it. Put aside Katie Miller's podcast, maybe Trump does this to pods while he's in the golf cart. You know, sometimes you got to kill some time.

[Tim Miller]

You can get things in the ears and he has like. It's all the makeup, all the orange makeup on the ears and then the bruising.

[Sam Stein]

Be hard to get, really figures. Can't get the butts.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Or digressing really fast. The backstrap. The backdrop of this is obviously the Kirk assassination, although this hearing was scheduled before then, I believe. And so you had the Epstein stuff, too. I'm going to start with the Kirk stuff because it's more recent and it produced some of the more notable exchanges. So to your point about dialing down the temperature versus dialing up the temperature, there was two exchanges that really kind of underscored the divergent paths we're on in this moment. One came from Amy Klobuchar, who went first, and that came from Eric Schmidt, who went later in the. In the hearing, both talking about the Kirk assassination, but political violence more broadly. Let's play clip 7 so the. The viewers can get a side by side, just to get you a sense of how divergent the two parties are currently handling this moment.

[Cash Patel]

Actually, don't want to go tit for tat on this, but what I am asking for is that this rhetoric of.

[Sam Stein]

Blaming one side or the other, stop. If you could convey that to the.

[Cash Patel]

President, and that we actually work on things that are solutions. So could you commit to me, Mr. Patel, Director Patel, that you will do that? Absolutely, Senator.

[Chris Counahan]

And I would point out we've heard years, years of the left, their loudest voices calling anyone on the right, extremists, extremist maga, Republicans, fascist Nazis, an existential threat to democracy. Check yourself and don't give me this both sides bullshit.

[Sam Stein]

All right, so just to fact check, the people who called Trump a Nazi include J.D. vance and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. But besides that point, I mean, that's just a petty little rejoinder. I. I just, you know, what is. That says it all. That just says it all right there.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it doesn't actually quite say it all because Eric Schmidt talked for, I mean, four and a half, what felt like an hour and a half. I don't know how long the actual speech.

[Sam Stein]

You get five minutes. And you. And he talked for basically all.

[Tim Miller]

It was the longest five minutes of my life. It was a speech that I assume was written by Nate Hockman, his new speechwriter, who was Ron Desantis's speechwriter and got into trouble for having fascist imagery and some of the. In Some of the material that the DeSantis campaign had put out in a video. And he's a controversial young man. Will Summer knows about Nate Hockman, all about it.

[Chris Counahan]

He posts on and rat in the video. Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Very big on the new right. So Eric Schmidt has hired this guy who, who, you know, was cast out of DeSantis world and he is refashioning Schmidt as like this culture warrior nationalist, you know, because Eric Schmidt, I'm sure assuming most of the commenters had never even heard of unless they're from Missouri up until recently. But he gives this big speech at the natcon conference where he talks about where he does kind of a blood and soil. America's not about the principles of the Constitution. And then here, this, at this. What was supposed to be questions for Cash Patel. He ends up asking himself questions where he does a bunch of rhetorical questions like was it a left winger or a right winger? Walkie Shaw Christmas killing. And he lists all the killings and then he answers them himself that it's left wing and it's just stupid. He just like leaves out all the right wing killings. Yeah, it's just stupid demagoguery.

[Sam Stein]

The reason he had to answer the questions was because Cash actually did not want to play ball there. Cash was like, well, you know, I'll let you answer those. And then he went. He answered them. I will say Katie Britt followed that up where she did note that there were politically motivated killings that targeted Democrats. She didn't say there's the responsibility of the right to denounce it. But at least she, he was honest about the current situation, unlike Eric Schmidt.

[Tim Miller]

One more thing about Eric Schmidt, I just like, it goes without saying, kind of like the ridiculousness of taking this moment. And there's just so much legitimate things to be concerned about with oversight of the FBI, whether it's like the handling of the various investigations, pushing people from out of, you know, child sex trafficking cases and domestic terrorism cases into immigration cases, the firing of what you like, all the stuff we'll get to other people ask for Eric Schmidt to just like go on this rant that it's only the left wing people that do violent rhetoric or aggressive rhetoric or extreme rhetoric when the president of the fucking United States is Donald Trump. It's just so like appallingly obvious and ridiculous and shameful. And yet, like, I think he feels like he's going to get rewarded for it.

[Sam Stein]

I'm sure he's media circles. Yeah, he'll get some good hits. He'll get, he'll raise some good money. I mean, come on, let's be real. That's what it's for. Will, I'm going to bring you in here because let's switch to the Jeffrey Epstein stuff at this point because, you know, I was a little bit surprised when we could come back to Charlie Kirk in a little bit because they did mention section230 in the context of what you're talking about, Tim. Just like tamping down on some of the stuff that's causing this. But the real big thing was the Epstein stuff. To me, like, that was where the news was made. And let's just play clip one because Patel opened it up by throwing someone so far under the bus that I was shocked. Like, I mean, is it poor Alex Acosta run over by the bus? Then the bus turned around and just put in reverse and just did it again. This is what Ash Patel said about Alex Costa and the Epstein files. Let's play it now.

[Cash Patel]

I know that there's a lot of talk about Epstein, and I'm here to testify that the original sin in the Epstein case was the way it was initially brought by Mr. Acosta back in 2006. The original case involved a very limited search warrant or set of search warrants and didn't take as much investigatory material it should have seized. If I were the FBI director, then it wouldn't have happened. The search warrants were limited to small time periods to include 2002 to 2005 and 1997 to 2001. Mr. Acosta allowed Epstein to enter in 2008 to a plea and non prosecution agreement, which then the courts issued mandates and protective orders legally prohibiting anyone from ever seeing that material ever again without the permission of the court. All right, we can stop the non prosecution agreements.

[Sam Stein]

So will explain Alex Costa, the role he plays in the mystery around him.

[Chris Counahan]

Yeah, sure. So Alex Acosta, this was during the George W. Bush administration. He was the US Attorney in Florida who handled Epstein's case. And he was involved in cutting this very favorable deal that basically, you know, gave Epstein a relatively light sentence and most notably said that the federal government and state authorities would not investigate Epstein or any of his associates further, further what other things they might have done. And so the local cops there said, well, we could have put this guy away for 20, 30 years and suddenly he's getting away with this light sentence. And then Alex Acosta resurfaces in all places as the Labor Secretary during the first Trump administration. Someone who probably should have been, you know, one would imagine would have been drummed out of politics based on this Epstein deal. He claims that, you know, he was told Epstein, or reportedly claimed that Epstein was an intelligence asset of some kind. But basically, he's a guy who may have some answers here and has given them in sort of this resurgence of interest.

[Sam Stein]

But he is being subpoenaed.

[Chris Counahan]

Yes. Yeah, the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed him.

[Tim Miller]

But.

[Chris Counahan]

But as you can see, Cash Patel, as you really sort of backed the bus up over him and said, you know, if I was there, it wouldn't have gone down the way it did.

[Tim Miller]

And I want to object to that question that it wouldn't have gone down the way it did based on how Cash Patel answered questions today about what the FBI is, knows or is doing or is looking into regarding other people that these young girls and young women in various cases were trafficked to. And I'd like to play clip three so that we can. We can show you where Cash is on this right now. You've seen most of the files. Who, if anyone, did Epstein traffic these young women to besides himself?

[Cash Patel]

Himself? There is no credible information.

[Sam Stein]

None.

[Cash Patel]

If there were, I would bring the case yesterday that he trafficked to other individuals. And the information we have, again, is limited.

[Tim Miller]

So the answer is no one.

[Cash Patel]

For the information that we have in the files, in the case file.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, this is crazy. That is crazy. Like, the idea that every single one of these young women and young girls were only trafficked for Epstein's personal sex use. Like many of them have testified about others, including, I'm most famously Prince Andrew, many of the victims have testified about that. Then you notice that Cash, he does this a couple other times, too. When he's asked about Epstein, he specifically talks about the case files. The senators will ask about the files, and then he'll say the case files. And the reason why he's doing this is because he wants to limit the scope of his responsibility to things that were actually in the evidence that was presented in the cases, in the court cases against Jeffrey Epstein. But, like, during the FBI and the government gathered a ton of other information about. About Jeffrey Epstein over a period of time. And sure, typically the government does not release information about people that they suspected or whatever that they did not bring charges against. But, like, that's what Cash was calling for his whole career as a podcaster, right, was like, like, reveal all the people that are. That are his known associations. Because we know there are a bunch of them. We know the government has a bunch of them. We know that Donald Trump is mentioned in there a bunch of times because they said that they created a share file of all the Donald Trump mentioned. So he's playing this word game between files and case files that I don't know if the senders caught it or they wanted to let him get away with it or they didn't care. But like, I think that that is pretty telling and I don't know if that's going to be a good enough answer.

[Sam Stein]

We know this.

[Tim Miller]

We know.

[Sam Stein]

At least Kennedy himself caught it. I mean, Kennedy followed it up. It wasn't in the clip. I'll read it. Kenny says Patel's gonna have to do more to satisfy the American people. Quote, the issue is not going to go away. And I think the central question for the American people is that they know that Epstein trafficked young women for sex. They want to know who, if anyone else, he trafficked these young women to. You're going to have to do more. Actually, we do have the clip, but we don't have to play it now because I just re. Just quoted verbatim. But like there's no, it just doesn't, it doesn't pass the smell test. Right. Like the idea to your point, Tim, that all these girls were on the island or wherever and it was just for Jeffrey Epstein doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And then you have things like the British ambassador to the US getting sacked recently, Prince Andrew and all the scandal around him and not to mention the years and years of conspiracy theorizing that people like Patel himself were engaged in, around this idea that this was some sort of great cabal.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, no, I, I can't imagine that's going to go.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I would love to have. And Cash does do some, some, you know, maga Media and I think feel like that'd be a nice follow up for, for folks in that world, which is just like what, like what made you change your mind? Like, you don't from. Yeah, go ahead, Will.

[Chris Counahan]

Well, I was just gonna say at one point, Cash says he hasn't read the whole, all the, all the files and so, you know, related to Epstein. And so, you know, on one hand I realized it's a lot of files, but you know, he was the guy who was like, the FBI director has the files, we gotta get them. And so for him now to be kind, case going on things like Fox News and saying it's over, get over it, move on with your lives. Maybe he should take a look at the files. Just a suggestion.

[Sam Stein]

It's crazy. I mean, that is nutty. To think that he wouldn't, wouldn't look at the files. Has there been any reaction online around this or they just moved on from it? Will.

[Chris Counahan]

I think in many ways they've moved on. I mean, you know, obviously this hearing just ended recently, but I think there's so much focus on Charlie Kirk right now. You know, and one more thing I would say about Cashing, you know, it wouldn't have gone down that way if he was in charge. I mean, it was striking to me that when he was asked about the 764 network, which is a big understandable cause celeb on the right, which is sort of this sextortion violence network with a praise on children, that has been a real FBI priority. You know, he, he initially said, you know what?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know about that.

[Chris Counahan]

So, you know, it suggests maybe it's not that big a priority for him. And, and, you know, I think that's one I, I did see people on the right were a little irritated by.

[Sam Stein]

Well, then he's, I, I, yes, I, I, I kind of agree that people are moving on from it in the abstract, but I guess there is, there is a lingering oversight committee investigation and subpoenaing of people like Acosta. And then there's the possibility that they get 218th member to sign this discharge petition for the Massacana thing, which would demand the production of all the documents. That is going to happen. Right. Like that's, that's basically just a matter of swearing in this next, you know, representative from Arizona. Right.

[Chris Counahan]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, they are going to get the votes that they need eventually. And you know how the administration handles that. I mean, it's, it's not over. I mean, I think this is, I only mean that Charlie Kirk is obviously taking up.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, of course.

[Chris Counahan]

Today. But I do think the event, this has gotten to the point where the Epstein thing is going to continue to linger and continue to flare up for the administration.

[Tim Miller]

I just want to say one more thing on the Epstein thing that they didn't. And Sam, you suffered through more hours of this than I did today at a couple of other interviews I had to do, but wasn't suffering. So maybe, so maybe you can tell me if I missed it. But, but during the lengthy segments that I watched, he wasn't really pressed on something we do know, which is that there were a bunch of agents that were tasked with going through all these files and combing through them and that some of the, and that that they were asked then to flag Donald Trump when they saw him in the files, whatever that means. Right. And, and I think that when you talk about this, you know, maybe the heat being not around this, particularly on the right, like in this moment following K. That is something that, you know, the calculus changes if the Democrats do take. Right. If they do take back the House, if they do win this. And, and like they, I, to me, I would be looking at oversight of, of that process. Like who was correcting it, who was doing it. Can we, can we, can we have some of the people that were reviewing them testify?

[Sam Stein]

I will say the, the majority, the Democratic side of the ledger, like did not actually focus that much in Epstein today.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, they didn't.

[Sam Stein]

I mean it was, they came in clearly wanting to talk to Patel about the firing of agents within the FBI and we're going to get to that.

[Tim Miller]

Which is a very important issue by the way. The Democrats are always out there being like you're, they're trying to distract from Epstein. Then they had their chance and didn't talk about it.

[Sam Stein]

Right. Like they, they went in there and you know, I think the reason I, well, I don't know what the reason is, but it, they went in there with the focus on whether Patel had fired mid and senior level agents because they were involved in prior investigations into Donald Trump. And it comes on the heels of a couple of lawsuits filed by those agents alleging that they were improperly filed with some pretty eye popping details in those lawsuits, but they did not. The, the lawmakers themselves. I mean, like, I don't know, am I missing something? Well, like I didn't hear that much. The segment we just played was from Senator Kennedy who's a Republican. So it wasn't like it was a major focus today for the Democrats.

[Chris Counahan]

Yeah, I think you're right, Sam. I mean, I think there were a lot of questions that maybe could have been about Epstein instead. Like the question about, you know, whether FBI agents have to do too many chin ups, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Perhaps mentioned Epstein. Did he not?

[Sam Stein]

Durbin mentioned it. He said, did you sign the memo? He said, why did you not sign the memoir that came out from the FBI and the AG saying that there were no more records and Patel had some, you know, childish rejoinder about something. What would you, should I have done? An auto pen and blah, blah, blah. And it's like whatever.

[Chris Counahan]

Yeah, that was quite well received on the. Right.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I'm sure, yes. Team up.

[Tim Miller]

But, and I guess Cory Booker, you see the, Cory Booker's thing, I guess he mentioned it, but it was part of Like a longer rant.

[Sam Stein]

Let's play the Durbin thing. Just because I referenced it. It's clip number two. You can see Durbin. But let me, before we press play, let me just point out, and this Durbin is old. Like he's retiring this year. He's 78 or something like that. Like you can tell, I mean, his fastball is not there. He's just reading from the paper. He seems kind of caught off guard when Patel pushes back. And I thought that really set the tone for the hearing. So let's play the Durbin clip.

[Tim Miller]

Bondi also pushed the FBI to review approximately 100,000 Epstein related records on an arbitrarily short deadline in March. And the FBI was directed to flag any documents that mentioned President Trump. Nothing came of that review until July, when DOJ and FBI released an unsigned memorandum stating there is no incriminating client list. Why was this July 7th memorandum unsigned?

[Cash Patel]

Would you prefer I've used auto pen?

[Tim Miller]

Why was it unsigned?

[Cash Patel]

The memorandum had the insignia of the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And in our effort to secure transparency for the American people, because the three prior administrations had not done so, we conducted an exhaustive search of everything related to the Epstein cases. And we produced what was legally and permissibly able to be produced to Congress, the American public. There's a congressional subpoena and we're continuing.

[Tim Miller]

To do so personally direct that investigation so that you would sign such a.

[Cash Patel]

Did I personally direct what investigation of.

[Tim Miller]

The Epstein records for any reference to President Trump.

[Cash Patel]

Again, you are citing reporting that I think is baseless. We conducted an investigation of the Epstein case files pursuant to the direction of the President, the administration, to provide all credible information. And we are working with Congress pursuant to a congressional subpoena to turn over all the documents. We can all individuals who at DOJ and FBI.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, we could probably, we could probably stop it there. Like I, I just, I got lost. Honestly, with what everyone's getting there, so processy. I mean, I think he's talking about them trying to flag mentions of Trump. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, well, exactly. Because Cash says, well, that's maybe faulty reporting. And then I think you follow up with specific things. Right, but even the point of. So he mentions this. Right, but like that point of. Was this a valuable use of FBI agents time, like going through all the Epstein files for you guys just to say that there's nothing here, nothing to see here? Are you telling me that the thousands of man hours that were spent for federal agents are supposed to Be keeping the country safe to go through the Epstein files were for nothing. Like you got nothing out of it. There's not a single other lead. You have? No. You have no leads?

[Sam Stein]

Or how about this? How about just saying, okay, you led this investigation to the files. How many mentions of Donald Trump did you find? I can't tell you. Why can't you tell me?

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

I'm not going to get into it. Why not? It seems like you're covering it for Trump. I mean, like, that's this basic stuff, but it just, I don't know, it seemed to pass him by. Any other thoughts before we move on from the Epstein stuff? Well, no.

[Chris Counahan]

I mean, I. I think cos Patel obviously, as you can see, really pushed back on basically any question from Democrats about Epstein. I think, you know, at the moment they. They seem to have avoided, I think, a big backlash from the right. But, you know.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, but I think they're pat. I think the right's over it. Honestly, I just think they're over it. It's just we've went to a place where they just don't care anymore. It was a big deal in the summer.

[Tim Miller]

Was there any discussion of the fingering at the TPUSA event during the hearing? Did that come up?

[Sam Stein]

We don't need to. We don't need to reference that ever. All right, switching. How am I going to segue here? Switching to the other matters now.

[Tim Miller]

We're going to finger the trip more.

[Sam Stein]

More, more internal matters. All right, we're going to talk about FBI internal matters. Now. Cash Patel was pressed on a couple of cases, on a couple of instances on the firing of these officials. There was a big story in the Times here. You guys read it, that preceded this, this hearing. Okay, so yeah, yeah. Rundown is this guy, Chris Meyer, field agent signed to fly. Patel up until last month, was basically told that was accused, I should say, of being the main agent in the Mar A Lago documents investigation. Problem was Chris Meyer was never signed to that case and he was, according to Lakeside vacation with his family in Virginia when the FBI conducted the search of the Mar A Lago property in August 2022. And yet he was fired by Cash Patel and the. He was fired alongside another agent, guy named Walter Giardini. Giardina, sorry. He did so. And Patel did so after being told that the terminations were unlawful and that pushing out Mr. Giardina, who is caring for his dying wife would be, quote, inexplicably cruel. That's according to a lawsuit filed by three FBI supervisors who were also dismissed by Mr. Patel.

[Tim Miller]

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[Sam Stein]

So that was like a lot of the backdrop of the hearing today, a lot of what the Democrats pressed him on. Patel just kept saying no, you know, everything was done merit based. But Tim, what are your thoughts on the article?

[Tim Miller]

The merit based thing is actually pretty well. Can I go to the merit based or I don't know your thoughts on the Times on the Times article?

[Chris Counahan]

Yeah, I mean I, I think that article demonstrates, you know, what also comes out in the lawsuit is that that Cash and Dan Bongino are just extremely sensitive to social media criticism or these conservative ex agents who are saying, you know, on podcasts, you know, that guy's a liberal. Why are you promoting that guy? And then they, Cash will call someone up and say hey, they're saying you were involved in this. Is that true?

[Tim Miller]

And then, well let me, let me.

[Sam Stein]

Just, let me just jump on that because there's another part of the article to your point, Will, about Brian Driscoll, who basically was running the bureau Until Cash came along on an interim basis. And Driscoll goes to Patel, and he's like, why are you listening to this guy? And what Driscoll's talking about is a right wing podcaster, a former FBI agent named Kyle. What is his last name?

[Chris Counahan]

Kyle Seraphin. I actually, I. I want to write something about him because he's really Cash's nemesis.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

What the hell? What the is going on here? Like, what is the story?

[Tim Miller]

I thought we might have had. I thought me and Kyle might have had a moment because I was sharing a lot of his material, going after Cash, and we started following each other on social media. But then he did. Turned out he didn't like my criticism of J.D. vance's podcast yesterday. So.

[Sam Stein]

All right, so Kyle Seraphin is talking about. Talking about Chris Meyer, and Cash Patel is taking it as gospel, and Brian Driscoll's like, hey, you can't listen to this guy.

[Tim Miller]

What is going on?

[Chris Counahan]

Yeah, so.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[Chris Counahan]

So, like, the brief Kyle Seraphin story is that that he was. He left the FBI. I believe he was fired, or there was some whistleblower thing. He was, like, linked up with James o' Keefe at one point, who he's also turned on. But I think what people need to understand now is that Kyle Seraphin is like, a really pugnacious ex FBI agent who's really critical of the second Trump administration and Cash Patel's handling of the FBI. And he's constantly, like, nitpicking them, like, saying, you can't promote that guy. He was involved in January 6th investigations. And on one hand, he's constantly trashing Cash, but on the other, it seems like Cash is very sensitive to his criticism of him. Um, notably, he said Cash, his girlfriend is a Mossad agent, and now she's suing him over that. And also in the ex agents lawsuit, you can see her.

[Tim Miller]

Are you ready to be that dismissive of it, Sam? I mean, Cash doesn't seem like the type of person that's just like, you know, Landon on his own. I'm not saying I know nothing about this. I'm just saying that if you're trying to tell me that the reason why Cash snagged the hot girl is because that she is a foreign agent of some kind, I'm open to that theory. That doesn't sound.

[Sam Stein]

It's fine to me.

[Tim Miller]

It sounds more likely than Cash bagging to me.

[Sam Stein]

It's. It's fine in theory. I just. I'll note it's always the Jewish agent that's controlling the levers.

[Tim Miller]

It could be Russia.

[Sam Stein]

They could be the other country.

[Tim Miller]

All right. Anyway, I apologize for interrupting.

[Chris Counahan]

The one other thing I would add about how this Kyle Seraphin guy lives in Cash, his head, rent free is at one point in the ex agents lawsuit. Cash says, like, they're saying this about you. You know, what are you gonna. What are we gonna do? And the. He's like, tells this agent, he's like, you, you should sue him. You should sue him too. And so. And go after him. So he's clearly a big influence on the administration.

[Sam Stein]

So clearly Driscoll was like, what the are you doing listening to Kyle Seraphin? Are you. Are we really allowing you to influence decisions? Driscoll implored Patel to speak directly to Mr. Marle Cash. Patel refused. So that's where we're at. He fired some dude, had no involvement in the Mar A Lager raid because Kyle Seraphin said he was involved.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So here's like the thing. I mean there's a lot of that in there and there's a lot of funny stuff we can go through. As you know, Will and I were talking earlier this week about the. The challenge coin, Cash that has Cash's name on it that he is. That he's handing to people. And do you have one? And I don't have one. And there's a lot of firings that seem very suspect. And I've had Mike Feinberg on and get pushed out who, you know, for being friends with Pete Struck. So like, it. It is a. That is a big problem. I think across the bureau today, Cash avoided like having to really, I think, you know, engage in any of the details in any meaningful way, in part just because he kept like ducking it and.

[Sam Stein]

And ongoing lawsuit. Can't talk about it.

[Tim Miller]

That said one thing, I just wonder from this hearing that that might linger with him is. Is the line he kept using about everybody that's been dismissed, which is a lot of people, is they failed to meet the standard or uphold the constitution. You talk about merit. They failed to meet a standard. And I don't know, man, if I'm Brian Driscoll, who's like a lifetime FBI agent who was just doing my job well respected inside the building, gets accidentally put into the role as acting head of the bureau. And by accident, I mean like literal accident, they put the wrong name on the press release. And so he ends up never corrected it, which is the best. So he just like ends up as acting FBI director based on a fuck up and he's in there and he's just trying to do the best he can with his job, and they're, like, telling him to fire people and stuff. And now you've got this clown, like, up there testifying in front of Congress that you don't meet this. That you failed to meet the standard that it was my. That I made a judgment call to fire that person. To me, if I was one of the guys on the side of the lawsuit, that would be an inflammatory remark. I like, that would be. That would be something that would make me more likely to want to go even harder at Cash, either through the legal process or the media, etc. And I don't know that over the long term, he really set himself up for success. As far as the coming blowback from folks within the building, I think that's totally fair.

[Sam Stein]

Like, that would piss me off. Right? And there was another point in the hearing where Cash, we actually could play this clip where he's talking about, well, you know, I've. Me and Bongino, we have a collective 31 year. Let's play it. It's clipped four because it's so good. Gotta press that play button.

[Tim Miller]

Hello. This is kind of like. It's a dramatic pause because this is what Josh does. He does this. It's, you know, it's like, you just want to see his, like, little bdis. He's so nervous. He's like. He's looking to the side, not a lot. Not great on eye contact with Cash.

[Sam Stein]

Well, my point was that he. He. At various points, he gets very defensive, nervous about, like, people going after him and Bongina for being podcasters. He's like, you're just dismissing my 31 years. 31 years of combined experience, which, you know, six. It's 16 and 15 divvied up. And like, their experience was like, what? Bongino was a Secret Service agent for a little bit, and Captaino was driving.

[Tim Miller]

The golf cart for Trump. For Obama.

[Sam Stein]

For Obama. Obama for Obama.

[Tim Miller]

That was his. And.

[Sam Stein]

And Patel was like, nuna staffer. And then he worked for Trump. Like. Like, if you're Driscoll, you, like, were in the trenches, you know, maybe it wasn't for 31 years total, but. And neither were theirs. But, like, you, that would piss me off for sure. I will just note, just to close the loop on the. On this dude that will loves Seraphin. This is what the Times wrote, because after this whole thing where he gets Driscoll fired or, sorry, he gets Myra fired, the times writes this. Mr. Seraphin acknowledged to the New York Times that he might have gotten some wrong details about Mr. Meyer as well. Oops. But he said the firing proved he had been close to the mark, adding that it had not been his intention to get anyone fired. It's real like, you know, Keystone Cop stuff here, basically.

[Chris Counahan]

Yeah. I mean, they're very sensitive, clearly to this, this right wing media world. And I would say not in a good way.

[Tim Miller]

Can we get to the pull ups? Because we're closer with the pull ups.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. So, okay, I think we'll close with this. I don't think Democrats acquitted themselves particularly well. They didn't really end too many punches. There was a weird Cory Booker moment where he got really impassioned and they started screaming back and forth, not sure what it accomplished quickly. There was one moment where like, Cash kind of, kind of entertained the idea of an assault weapons ban, but I just don't, didn't really quite understand what he was getting at with Amy Klobuchar. And then there was Maisie Hirona. We don't have the clip here, but she basically was talking about basic training for FBI agents in the field. And she said, well, you know, I think it's, it's wrong because women can't do pull ups like men can do pull ups. Which is already being taken by the right as evidence that Maisie Heron understands that there is a distinction between genders when it comes to physical abilities. So there's that also. It came right after Senator Schmidt's four and a half minute diatribe about how Democrats are responsible for all the violence in the universe. And so Hirona just sort of let that one slide. But Tim, you had some real thoughts on Hirona?

[Tim Miller]

Well, I just, well, no, I just really had thoughts about Cash Patel doing push ups or pull ups.

[Sam Stein]

It's pull ups.

[Tim Miller]

Cash Patel was really, really adamant. Like, the thing he was probably the most adamant about the whole hearing was that agents need to be able to do pull ups.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

And I, you know, I guess so. I, I don't know. Sure. I, I, I think that probably it's good for FBI agents to be able to do pull ups, but I don't know, he just pushed out like one of the China experts who like, no. Whose job is counterintel on China. And I'd like to have some people in the FBI that, you know, are very good at, you know, getting into the domestic. You know, maybe somebody can't do a pull up because they are undercover as an incel, you know, and they're Going into incel culture. And. And I think that would be fine with me. I. I guess I just don't know if that's the top priority I have if it's a subsequent. It's not the top priority I have for Von Nazi Orono to ask questions about, but it's also not the top priority I have if I'm the bureau direct.

[Sam Stein]

I like this idea that the undercover incel agent has to do such great method acting that they can. So weak. I can't chew up Pull up. That's how you really commit to the bit.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God.

[Chris Counahan]

Well, this is also. This is a few weeks after Cash put out the video of himself doing pull ups as part of the RFK Pete Hexagon trouble.

[Sam Stein]

Because of the timing of that, I forget.

[Chris Counahan]

Well, and people say, I mean, you look at it, Look, I'm not Mr. Pull Up. But he can't. I mean, he does like one or two with good form, but then the rest are just like crazy wriggling and you know, the little jump on pull ups kind of. Yeah, he's kind of like throwing his body up and it was crazy.

[Sam Stein]

Is.

[Chris Counahan]

You can tell. I guess he's converted this open air part of the FBI headquarters into a gym. And so you could. I mean, this is like going on in the streets of D.C. that the FBI director is going like, well, they're.

[Sam Stein]

Trying to outdo each other. Right. It's like, we should grab that video.

[Tim Miller]

And post for the people that watch this. Not live. We love you live folks and commenters, especially the guy that called me handsome over there. But for the people to come later, we should. We should grab the video for them so they can. They can enjoy it.

[Sam Stein]

It all right there. One last thing before we let you go because it's been discussed in the comment section and this is right up your alley, but there's people who don't think Patel dresses the part, doesn't really know how to dress like an FBI director. I have no actual strong thoughts. He. I did notice his tie had been really loose during his confirmation hearing. It was a little tighter today at the knot area, but it wasn't like totally tight. And it still is a fat knot. And I'm not sure I can weigh it. That's really. Yeah. You want to weigh on this.

[Chris Counahan]

I'm kind of a, you know, sartorial fan. Yeah. So I agree.

[Sam Stein]

His.

[Chris Counahan]

His knot is too big. And I don't understand. He has like some sort of symbol on the tie. It's like it looks almost like the like at the Emmys award or something. It looks like an angel or something. And so I. That's weird. I don't. I don't think that's appropriate. He dresses. It's sort of like, almost like he's like, going, like, going to the club. Like. Like a gentleman's. Like, not a strip club, but like. Like an old, like, London gentleman's club.

[Sam Stein]

Like the. Like the executive branch club that they all go to in Georgia.

[Chris Counahan]

Yeah, exactly. I do think that nod is just way too big. And. And this whole administration, they love the.

[Cash Patel]

The.

[Chris Counahan]

The suit, lapels are too thin and, you know, so on.

[Sam Stein]

Well, I didn't realize we had Derek guy.

[Tim Miller]

My problem is with his face, not his outfit.

[Sam Stein]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

And maybe there's nothing he can do about it. I've said this about myself in case people are saying this is too mean. People are like, yeah, it's like, tim, if one of your loser candidates had ever won, would you have been White House press secretary? And I always say I probably would have been communications director behind the scenes, because the press secretary, it's important to have a good poker face. And I have a bad poker face. If I hate you, you can tell immediately on my face.

[Sam Stein]

That's. That's the thing.

[Tim Miller]

Some people just don't have a face for. For the press secretary, Cash does not have the face for being in charge of the bureau of the FBI. He looks nervous and scared. His eyes are darting always. He looks very uncomfortable. And it's not. Maybe it's not his fault. Maybe that's just how God made him. But like you, you don't. He doesn't have a face for the job. Trump. Trump likes people to come from central casting, and he doesn't. He doesn't have the face for the job, so.

[Sam Stein]

That's right. Yeah, I agree with that. He does. He doesn't exude the sort of like, I'm above it all and I'm just gonna play it really cool and I'm not going to tell you anything. I'm gonna be kind of intimidating or. He doesn't have that.

[Tim Miller]

No.

[Sam Stein]

But he does have Trump's backing for now, and I think that's all that matters. So there have been some chatter that he might be on the way out, and I think Booker said, I. This is probably your last hearing. No way.

[Tim Miller]

No way.

[Sam Stein]

Not happening. I'm. I'm putting my money down. I don't even know what the poly market. Poly market odds are on this one, but I don't.

[Tim Miller]

He's not going anywhere.

[Chris Counahan]

Can I just flag something that. That producer.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, and then Tim's got it right in our comments.

[Chris Counahan]

Just briefly. It's apparently a Liver Football Club Liverpool Football Club tie, which is even crazier.

[Sam Stein]

Maybe he's a big. He does love those soccer flag things that he drapes all over the place. Maybe he's a big Liverpool fan. All right, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

Will I get a roll?

[Sam Stein]

Thanks, everyone for tuning in.

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