Bulwark Takes — LIVE REACTION: RFK JR. Faces HEATED Questioning in Senate Hearing
Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Hosts/Panelists: Sam (Host), Jonathan Cohn, Will Saletan
Date: September 4, 2025
Overview: Main Theme and Purpose
This live episode of Bulwark Takes delivers immediate, in-depth analysis and reaction to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s contentious appearance before the Senate Finance Committee as Secretary of Health and Human Services. Against the backdrop of major controversies at health agencies—the ousting of top CDC officials, deep budget and personnel cuts, and drastic changes to vaccine policy—the panel debates RFK Jr.’s testimony, his political survival, and the real-world risks posed by his leadership.
Main Themes:
- RFK Jr.’s credibility and handling of scientific evidence
- Bipartisan skepticism toward RFK Jr.
- Political maneuvering by both parties, especially in relation to the Trump legacy
- Stakes for public health, vaccine policy, and agency credibility
- Tensions within the Republican Party and broader U.S. politics as Kennedy tries to serve both the MAGA base and anti-vax movement
Key Discussion Points and Insights
Setting the Stage: CDC/U.S. Health Agencies in Crisis
[02:45 - 04:06]
- RFK Jr. faces Senate after pushout of former CDC director Susan Menarez and several top deputies, triggered by refusals to support his anti-vaccine agenda.
- Budget for mRNA vaccine research slashed by $500 million, vaccine advisory panels packed with skeptics, and new restrictions on COVID boosters for under 65s/children.
- Jonathan Cohn: “The 30,000 foot view is that he's destroying the CDC... not only losing the sort of capabilities, but losing its credibility.”
RFK Jr.’s Testimony: Methods and Misinformation
[04:06 - 09:17]
- Kennedy’s style: Overwhelms with cherry-picked statistics and marginal studies, dodges accountability using plausible-sounding scientific jargon.
- Routinely discredits critics by calling them ‘pharma shills’; even targets left-wing stalwarts like Bernie Sanders.
- Caught repeatedly denying his own past statements, easily disproven by public records.
- Will Saletan: “He makes you feel like everything's in doubt because he seems to have stuff on his side...you have to go research it yourself to find out that he's lying, delusional... just wrong about everything.” [09:39]
The Susan Menarez Firing: Logic and Spin
[08:12 - 09:17]
- Surreal exchange with Sen. Warren: RFK Jr. claims he fired Menarez because she admitted she wasn’t trustworthy. He previously called her “unimpeachable.”
- “She's both a liar and admits that she's a liar,” says Sam, highlighting the illogical spin.
Claims About Chronic Disease and Agency Performance
[11:40 - 13:41]
- RFK Jr. accuses CDC of neglecting diabetes and chronic disease: Asserts “Nobody’s doing anything about it,” despite cancelling major diabetes studies.
- Jonathan Cohn: “I promise you that slashing the budget for NIH, getting rid of all the people at CDC who know what they're doing, and also cutting back on vaccines is not gonna make us healthier.” [12:31]
The “False Choice”: Chronic Disease vs. Infectious Disease
[13:53 - 14:56]
- Will Saletan: RFK Jr. creates a “false choice” between addressing chronic disease and infectious disease, misrepresenting public health priorities.
- RFK Jr. calls CDC “the most corrupt agency in the government,” positioning himself as savior against entrenched interests.
Operation Warp Speed: Trying to Play Both Sides
[15:30 - 19:18]
-
Exchange with Sen. Mark Warner: RFK Jr. refuses to state how many Americans died of COVID or if vaccines prevented deaths.
- Warner: “Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?”
RFK Jr.: “I don't know how many died... nobody knows because there was so much data chaos…” [15:30–16:13]
- Warner: “Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?”
-
RFK Jr. attempts to praise Trump for Warp Speed while refusing to validate vaccine efficacy.
-
Jonathan Cohn: “He picks out like a little bit of truth... and twists it... He doesn't want to say lots of people died from COVID because in his worldview, Covid wasn't that bad and the vaccine was worse.” [17:22–19:18]
mRNA Research Cuts: Scientific and Economic Impact
[20:02 - 21:21]
- Cohn: Loss of funding for mRNA platforms could cripple future vaccine development, slow cutting-edge cancer and infectious disease research, and risk the U.S. losing its scientific lead.
Republicans Break Ranks: Barrasso, Cassidy, Vaccine Skepticism
[24:18 - 30:36]
- Senator Barrasso (R): “Vaccines. I'm a doctor. Vaccines work.... if we're going to make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined.” [24:18]
- Panel reaction: “Huge,” says Will Saletan, describing it as an extraordinary rebuke from a top GOP loyalist.
- Bill Cassidy (R, also a doctor): Frames Warp Speed as Trump’s triumph and challenges RFK on his legal attempts to limit vaccine access.
- Cassidy to RFK Jr.: “You just told Senator Bennett that the COVID vaccine killed more people than Covid… That was a statement.” [27:40]
- RFK Jr., denying, is called out by Cassidy, who notes RFK's litigation blocking vaccine access.
Political Dynamics: RFK as Trump’s “Crown Jewel” or Liability?
[30:36 - 44:41]
- Glaring split within the GOP: personal loyalty/ego for Trump (Warp Speed), public health fundamentals (pro-vaccine doctors in Congress).
- Will Saletan: “There’s entire industry of Republicans who work on Donald Trump trying to get him to do the right thing for the wrong reasons... We can't persuade you that RFK is quack... but we can persuade you that he's attacking your legacy.” [31:25–32:58]
- Dem senators and Bernie take advantage by leveraging the “divide” and “corruption” accusations, showing RFK’s rhetoric alienates both sides.
Medicaid Cuts and Rural Hospitals: Reality vs. Rhetoric
[36:43 - 40:34]
- Republican and Democratic senators grill RFK Jr. on rural hospital closures: $50B fund is a “drop in the bucket” compared to $150B Medicaid cuts.
- Warner: “There are no cuts to Medicaid, sir.”
- RFK Jr.: “There are no cuts to Medicaid, sir.”
- Warner: “That is an absurd [claim]... the rural hospital is going to close...” [39:44–40:34]
- Cohn: “This is their effort to try to sell this thing as not cutting Medicaid. And the reason they're trying to sell it is because it's deeply unpopular.”
The Limits of Political Utility: How Long Will RFK Jr. Last?
[41:58 - 46:56]
- RFK seen as a “flak protector” for Trump from the left: Using his “progressive” cred to defend right-wing cuts/policies.
- Panelists debate when/if Trump will ditch RFK—it’s likely to hinge on TV optics, poll numbers, or direct political cost.
- Cohn: “I have been constantly surprised at how willingly, openly he is pursuing his agenda. I kind of figured it would be more subtle and more gradual.”
Risks of Outbreaks, Loss of Trust, and the Political Future
[47:27 - 50:34]
- Will: Warns that “external events”—such as a new infectious disease outbreak—could expose the dangers of RFK Jr.’s leadership and finally force a reckoning.
- Cohn: As people lose access to vaccines and research, public anger and political costs may rise—especially with elections looming.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
Jonathan Cohn [04:06]:
“He is turning [the CDC] into an agency that no longer has the capabilities just because they’re losing so many staff... but not only isn’t it losing the sort of capabilities, but losing its credibility.” -
Will Saletan [09:39]:
"He makes you feel like everything's in doubt because he seems to have stuff on his side... you have to go research it yourself to find out he's lying, delusional... just wrong about everything." -
Sen. Mark Warner to RFK Jr. [15:30]:
"Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?"
RFK Jr.: "I don't know how many died." -
Sen. Barrasso [24:18]:
"I’m a doctor. Vaccines work... We can't allow public health to be undermined." -
Will Saletan [25:15]:
"For [Sen. Barrasso] to cross over and say, 'you're scaring people, nobody knows who to trust anymore,' that is huge." -
Sen. Cassidy [27:40]: "Let me ask you. But you just told Senator Bennett that the COVID vaccine killed more people than Covid..."
RFK Jr.: "I did not say that."
Cassidy: "We'll check the record. That's a question of fact." -
Bernie Sanders [34:38]:
"Everybody is corrupt but you. Is that what we're looking at? I don't think so." -
Will Saletan [44:41]:
“If the result of this hearing... is that [RFK Jr.] no longer effectively can do this flak job for Trump on the left... that’s a pretty lethal combination in terms of his value to Trump.”
Important Segment Timestamps
- 00:00 – 01:19: Introduction; episode context and high-level takeaway
- 02:45 – 04:06: Setting the crisis in federal health agencies, CDC background
- 08:12 – 09:17: Exchange on firing Susan Menarez
- 11:40 – 13:41: RFK Jr.’s claims about chronic disease/diabetes and CDC performance
- 15:30 – 17:22: Warner confronts RFK Jr. on COVID death/vaccine numbers
- 20:02 – 21:21: The cut to mRNA research; implications
- 24:18 – 25:07: Barrasso’s pro-vaccine statement—GOP pushback
- 27:40 – 28:40: Cassidy’s confrontation; double-edged approach to Operation Warp Speed
- 34:38 – 35:54: Bernie Sanders’ tongue-lashing regarding “corruption”
- 39:44 – 40:34: Rural hospitals, Medicaid cuts—RFK Jr.’s denials
- 41:58 – 44:41: Panel discusses the fragility of RFK Jr.’s political position
- 47:27 – 50:34: Forecasting future dangers and looming challenges for RFK Jr.
Final Thoughts / Looking Forward
- Upcoming flashpoints: Autism study (September), new vaccine advisory committee members with anti-vax records, possible future CDC director confirmation.
- Risks: Increased vaccine access problems already becoming visible to the public, further erosion of scientific agency credibility, and possible political repercussions in the midterms.
- Largest wild card: A public health crisis (e.g., infectious disease outbreak) could dramatically shift perceptions, exposing the dangers of anti-science policy in real-time.
- Sam (host) [49:17]: “At some point, people want their vaccines...how does this go over that well, where you're threatening people's access to vaccines they felt they had access to, you're denying them a sense of security?”
Summary for New Listeners
This episode is a treasure trove for anyone seeking to understand the intersection of health policy, political gamesmanship, and the real risks facing American public health in the era of RFK Jr.'s tenure. The Bulwark panel, channeling both expertise and sharp humor, reveals bipartisan anxiety around RFK Jr., the failures of his “both sides” tightrope, and why the consequences of his leadership could loom much larger than partisan soundbites—especially if events force the nation to face the cost of sidelining science.