← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
Frank
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- [01:10]
Richard Rushfield
Plus you get premium benefits at a.
- [01:12]
Frank
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- [01:26]
Dave
Terms apply.
- [01:27]
Bill
Lounge access is subject to change.
- [01:29]
Dave
See capital1.com for details.
- [01:31]
Frank
I think we're, we're live now. Hey. All right, well, we're just gonna, we're gonna hang out here just for a few minutes, let people show up. We were discussing life stuff. It's been, it's been a, I tweeted something like, it's been a bad weekend. It's been a really, been a really sad weekend. And it was, and I was really happy when Sam today DM me first thing before, before our staff meeting was like, hey, I want to do something. I want to do something a little bit different today with the live stream. I want to, you know, get people together and celebrate, celebrate the, the life and the work of Rob Reiner. And I was, I thought it was a great idea. I'm glad we could round up this crack panel in such short notice. Bill Crystal is going to have a really, a really great and funny personal anecdote to tell Everybody. And I'm going to save that for the end. I'm teasing it right now. For the few folks who are here in the, in the chat already waiting for this, it's going to be, it's going to be well worth, worth your time. Stick around. And we've got.
- [02:31]
Bill
I think you're supposed to lower. I think you're supposed to lower from the anchor.
- [02:37]
Frank
Bill. I think you might be muted. Were you trying to say something?
- [02:42]
Bill
I was. Am I muted?
- [02:44]
Frank
Oh, no. We've lost Bill's audio.
- [02:46]
Richard Rushfield
I hear it.
- [02:47]
Bill
No, everyone else. You're the only one. Sonny.
- [02:49]
Frank
Do you guys hear him? Because I don't hear him.
- [02:50]
Sponsor/Announcer
I do.
- [02:51]
Bill
Yeah. The others hear me.
- [02:52]
Frank
Well, I don't have a good show.
- [02:53]
Bill
Without Sonny here, you know, Richard, take over. Let's, let's have a real conversation.
- [02:58]
Richard Rushfield
You know, I'll tell your anecdote for you.
- [03:00]
Dave
Yeah, it's not that good an anecdote.
- [03:03]
Frank
All right. Well, that's odd. Hold on one sec. Let me change something on my end.
- [03:14]
Bill
Dave, are you a big, Were you a big Rob Reiner fan?
- [03:17]
Dave
I was, I was.
- [03:18]
Frank
And you're a movie.
- [03:18]
Bill
I mean, you're a big film person, right?
- [03:21]
Dave
Yeah. Although I don't have an excuse like Sonny. I don't really write letterbox reviews, but it's, it's always been just a hobby. I like, I like watching them. I have a little, I have a collection at home and we're. The son and I are at the same age, so I had the same just embryonic experience watching every, every classic Rob Reiner movie. But then growing up in the period where his movies were not hitting anymore and he was more of a progressive celebrity. Yeah, it feels like, it definitely feels like that change. He was not the Bush era. I remember him being one of the most visible progressive celebrities. And he still was doing that in the Trump years, but by that point, his canon was so beloved. I feel like people didn't want to mess with him. But I've seen most of it. I've even seen most of the post peak movies. We don't know how much we want to talk about them because we want to venerate and not critique. But I think part of it, he lives. So you never saw anybody, even if they disagree with him politically, come away with a negative story about him. Right. Even when he had a clunker, nobody said, there he goes, my enemy. Rob Reiner's good.
- [04:28]
Richard Rushfield
The mensch list in Hollywood is really, it's basically through people. It's basically Rob Reiner Ron Howard and Tom Hanks, essentially. And just you never have, you never hear a server have anything bad to say. You never hear someone who worked with him have anything bad to say. And he was just, you'd see him around town. He was just such a kind of a vuncular presence that he just lit up a room in the way that no. Anyone else does.
- [05:02]
Bill
Now. Sonny's. Now. We can't hear Sonny right now.
- [05:05]
Richard Rushfield
We've lost you.
- [05:06]
Bill
Yeah.
- [05:06]
Dave
Oh, the irony.
- [05:09]
Frank
How about. Can you guys hear me now?
- [05:11]
Dave
There it is.
- [05:11]
Frank
Yeah. Yes. All right, great. Richard, let's start with you. You had a great piece for the Ankler today. Of course, Richard Rushfield is the editor in chief of the Ankler. It's the best. What's that?
- [05:23]
Richard Rushfield
Mere humble columnist.
- [05:25]
Frank
Oh, come on. Well, all right. My colleague Janice at the, at the Angler, he's, he is. It's the number one newsletter on Hollywood, the business of Hollywood, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a, it was just a really, it was a really nice, moving column because you get to the, the, the menchiness of Rob Reiner. Why don't you, why don't you just kind of walk us through real quick what, what you said in your column? And you know how it hits you. This whole weekend was just filled with bad news. And it felt like this idea that Rob Reiner was not only dead, but had been murdered in his home. It felt like the world was crashing.
- [06:02]
Richard Rushfield
Yeah. And I'd say for Hollywood, sort of before this weekend, it kind of felt like the world felt like we were living in the Poseidon Adventure already, that we had hit, the big wave had struck and we were turned upside down, so we were already throne of her beam. And then the events of this weekend at Brown and then Bondi beach there happened and were very upsetting to people here in Hollywood, as everywhere else. And then this happens, which is just so. I mean, you could not have designed a more unsettling thing because the, the ending was so awful to someone who was so beloved and so just known for his warmth and kindness. And to have. And had great accomplishments and had done so much and was just such a eager presence in people's life. And to have it come to this sort of end, it was just. I mean, I think people are just beyond shell shocked right now. It's in Hollywood. It's, it's, it's an awful thing.
- [07:11]
Frank
It really is. And one thing you hit on in your, your news, your newsletter that I did not talk about as much because the, his his main career as an actor was a little before my time was his, his time on all in the Family. I mean that 10 year run of Must See Appointment viewing that he was, you know, one of the, one of the key parts of.
- [07:30]
Richard Rushfield
I mean arguably that was the biggest show of the 1970s. It was the first show in TV history to be number one for five years in a row. We've got about 30 million viewers a week, which is. It was about 15% of America back then. Unimaginable. And the key to it was at the heart of it was his character who played a young know it all professor living with his loudmouth in laws, especially Archie Bunker, the cab driver. And how the formula was every week one of them teaches the other to see, to see the world in a bigger way. And they, you know, it was a pretty simple formula but they, they break down I. And it was just his humanity in that, that he, his ability to, you know, it was, it was, it was formulaic but he made it so real and passionate. Just before I went on here, I watched someone posted the scene from that where, where about five seasons in.
- [08:36]
Frank
He.
- [08:37]
Richard Rushfield
And Gloria, they moved to California. And his goodbye to Archie Bunker where he's just struggling to say like you've meant a lot to me if you can get through that four minute scene without breaking down. I had to wash myself up after that. But he just brought such humanity to his work as an actor and then to his work as a director and everything he did.
- [09:05]
Bill
You know, I'm. I'm so much older than all you guys here that I actually watched all the family in real time. And I was in college, I guess my freshman year and so what maybe beginning of second year in 71 and you know, those days, of course, no needless to say, no Internet, no streaming, not really even DVRs. I don't, I mean you couldn't really tape thing. Maybe you could. It was a major technological challenge. So everyone assembled to watch and that was about the. There were other shows that were famous and you know, popular obviously, but it soared to number one very, very fast as I recall. And certainly for us in college, I mean it was a huge thing and I think it was a huge thing. You guys would know more about this than I've. Norman Lear, you know, it just was such a different show from the typical kinds of sitcoms and, or any other shows that were on tv. And of course Norman Lear is a great progressive and he invented the show to kind, I think he wanted to show, be kind of a Little bit edifying to the audience about how they should be a little more enlightened on matters of race and gender and other such things. And then, of course, within about three, three, you know, episodes, Archie Bunker is the hero and Beathead is kind of the, you know, the. The. What's the foil, I guess you'd say. And Norma Lear, to his credit, decided, hey, this is a pretty good. I'm not going to mess with this formula, even though the politics isn't quite going the way I wanted. And it was a lovable thing. So it wasn't really anti, you know, left or anything, but it was. I mean, it was a pretty. But it was so big. I very much agree with that. I mean, it's a kind of sociological matter. It was. It was just huge in the early. In the mid-70s. And again, everyone watched it at the same time one day a week and then you talk about it, you know, the next morning. And all that famous, you know, cliches about the water cooler and stuff, that really was true. And, yeah, I don't know what the numbers are, but it must have been something like. I mean, when you sort of discount people under 50, you know, under 12, who wouldn't have watched it and people who are, I don't know, don't have TVs, it must have had something like a quarter. You know, I don't. What do you think, a fifth? A quarter of America? Like, maybe not quite that.
- [10:57]
Richard Rushfield
I mean, I think it was 30,000 people a week.
- [11:00]
Bill
Yeah.
- [11:01]
Frank
Yeah. Different universe. You know, there's three broadcast networks. That was kind of all there was to watch. Yeah, it's. It's a. It's a different. Dave. Dave, you. You and I are closer. You and I are closer in age. We're a little bit, you know, we're younger. You know, we. This is all ancient history to us. For me, Rob Reiner is. Is the. Is the beleaguered older lawyer in the Wolf of Wall Street. The guy. The guy who has to sit down with the like kind of young punks and be like, you can't. You can't pay hookers with credit cards. That's the thing you can't do. You can't. You know, what is what. How much are we spending on dwarf tossing? Why are you trying to call me during the. What was the. What is your. What is your memory of Rob Reiner as an actor? Because I feel like he has these. He has these great kind of bit smaller parts in later years that anytime he shows up, it's like yes. Rob Reiner.
- [11:52]
Dave
Oh, completely. So I guess I first connected him. I'm born in 1981, so my parents are very into movies. We have a vhs. As soon as I remember that being an option. And it was appointment viewing in the house. And the first time I realized, oh, this is an actor too, because I was too young for all in the Family. Was this a Spinal Tap? And so that's when I think of him acting. I think he largely played himself. You read the Wolf of Wall street as the dad was a spin on himself, but he played a version of himself, always an older Jewish guy or a guy named Rob Reiner or a guy goofing on the career of Rob Reiner. I remember him being made fun of in South Park. I think this. And I was thinking about this before. He was incredibly important to liberalism, to post New Deal liberalism in ways you might get into. And he's one of the celebrities in the Bush era who is campaigning for pre K in California, taking a lead in politics, speaking out because he had the celebrity speak out. So I was seeing him as an actor playing. Very little difference from the guy I was seeing as a political activist. But when I would see him on tv, it was the Rob Briner character. I appreciate that he didn't try to stretch Wolf Wall street as I had forgotten just how good he is in every scene of that movie because we were all doing the same thing and watching his greatest hits. That might be, though, my favorite appearance he ever did because he has to play a little bit mean and it's surreal. He played himself. He has to do some jerkiness when he's on 30 Rock or on Larry Sanders or like on a comedy show. But. But him as the father in Wolf of Wall Street. I think one. One of the lines is going through the accounts and how they're. They're listing some of their illicit expenses as sides. So what is $28,000 for sides? The sides cure cancer, all that stuff. Yeah, but I like that he began and ended his. His. His movie career as. As Marty de Burgh.
- [14:07]
Bill
He.
- [14:07]
Dave
And so the one time, I guess my writing intersected with what he was doing was I wrote my book about progressive rock years ago in researching that one. I mean, progressive stars, rock stars, they all love Spinal Tap. They appreciate that some of the stories of Spinal Tap actually came from their bands. It was the band, yes, that had the failing to find the stage at the concert hall story that became Gag at Spinal Tap. But they even. They dealt with a lot of rock filmmakers. Steven Soderbergh actually got his start. One of his starts making a yes documentary. And the Marty DeBurghy thing was this note. Perfect parody of the kind of guy who would hang out, get this access to the rock stars, be not worshipful. Exactly. And clearly use the material he had to make them look silly again with no malice. Like, none of the people I talked to didn't like that. But I remember some of them signaling out how good Rob Reiner was playing this. Affable, but also smart enough to realize how good the material he was getting was. Director, but always funny. And everyone watching this has the same take. I'm sure you saw him in something and your mouth curled up because he was such a fun presence. He was so warm. And if he was interested in the script, it must be pretty good. Like you must. If you could induce Rob Reiner. Either it was a good script or you were a friend or you were good enough person that he was friendly, wanted to be on the show. Ideally both. But he's like Marty de Berg and I do. As tragic as this is. Yes. He appears on screen for the final time in Spinal Tap 2 as Marty de Bergi trying to prevent Spinal Tap's final drummer from dying. And nothing about this is good, but that was the first smile I had after this news. Is probably thinking about that. Yeah.
- [16:00]
Frank
There's a good comment on Substack here, by the way. If you haven't subscribed to the Bulwark, you should. You can comment on the Substack post. You can watch the videos or sign up on YouTube. Go sign up, go subscribe. It's a good service. We get to do things like this. But one of the early comments here is he had such a run of different. The string of unrelated movies that this guy directed is just amazing. It's like he could create a story about anything and make it relatable and either very fun or very dramatic. And you know, that run starts with the. The movie that Richard is wearing right now. Spinal Tap. Spinal Tap is not the first mockumentary. It's not. It's not the, the. The movie that kicks off the whole genre, but it's the first mockumentary anyone remembers. It's the first mockumentary that anyone watches and is like, oh, yes, this is very funny. And. And there should be more of these. And we can get into his career as a producer at Castle Rock Entertainment and. And the. The work he did with the Christopher Guest movies after this. But the.
- [17:02]
Bill
The.
- [17:03]
Frank
This is Spinal Tap is the first of about five movies In a ten year stretch that is either the best of the genre or one of the best of the genre. When you, when you go back and watch Spinal Tap, Richard. I watched it recently. I watched it not long ago, maybe, maybe three or four months ago. And what jumped out at me was just how fresh it all feels. It feels real and lived in. It's, it's like this is what the Office guys are aspiring to, right? This is what all of the kind of modern sitcom styles are aspiring to and never can quite achieve. They're just not, they're not quite there. The reality of it was something else.
- [17:43]
Richard Rushfield
Yeah. I mean, you had these guys who, Christopher guest and Michael McKean and Harry Shearer who were the height of their comic powers, who just came up with these, with, with these British heavy metal stars characters and just lived in them and love doing these, these characters and thinking up these ridiculous situations for them so much. And it, it just, you know, the movie, I think almost suffers from its success because it's so imitated and so quoted right now that now that you, if you've never seen it before and you've come to it, it's kind of like you're viewing the Declaration of Independence or something. It's just the stone on which so much is built. But I bear with incredible, incredibly funny. And his performance was performance and directing. And to have that be your first directorial outing is a remarkable thing.
- [18:47]
Frank
And this is, like you mentioned this in your column, Richard, but it's not like hopping from sitcom actor to major feature director is a thing that ever happens. Like, that's just not, that's not a thing. And he, he managed to not only do it, but become one of the most creatively and financially successful directors of, of his generation.
- [19:12]
Richard Rushfield
Yeah, I mean, he and Ron Howard are basically the list there. And Ron Howard followed him a few years and he, yeah, he not only made that leap, which I'm, I'm sure people scoffed at, like me dad is making a movie when it happened, but then just had this, that, that string of films that he has through the 80s and early 90s, that is, is as solid as. That is as good a director streak as any director had in all of history. When you, you look at it, you have Spinal Tap and then the. Sure Thing, just a great, a smaller one, but a great comedy. But then you have, I don't have the list in front of me, but Princess Bride, which is absolute classic. Harry Met Sally, which is, you know, one of the top rom coms of all time. A few Good Men. I mean that is, that is a streak of the ages there.
- [20:10]
Frank
Yeah. You skipped over Stand By Me, which is defining adolescent coming of age story. Dave, I. Again, you know, when I was growing up, what I, how I describe this run of movies is that these are the foundational basic cable classics. Right? Like these are. I grew up and I have seen these. I actually wrote down estimations of. I, I think, I believe I've seen a few good men 56 times, I would guess in various bits and pieces. Stand by me 112 times at least over the years. You know, Misery is another one. Misery is, you know, that was on a loop on TNT and TBS and another kind of best of sub genre if we want to. You know, it's, it's a horror thriller, but it's maybe the best Stephen King movie.
- [20:57]
Richard Rushfield
There are movies that are quoted so much that people don't even realize they're quoting the movie anymore, that it's just part of the language now. It's. Yeah, I'll have what she's having. The. Yeah, you can't handle the truth. So. So many lines from so many movies.
- [21:11]
Frank
It's Bill, we were, we were talking before, before the, the show started here about When Harry Met Sally and how they, they, they kind of changed the, the ending of that film. That was a, it's a, it's a, it's a nice little anecdote that, that you hear from time to time. But it's a, you know. Does. Do you think that movie works if they don't get together at the end?
- [21:30]
Bill
I mean, I'm not a film critic and these, sometimes things can surprise you and sad, you know, that could be like, what's a bittersweet ending or something? Sad ending and. But no, I don't know. I feel like I have a simple mind of you that if it's a romantic comedy, maybe it should have a happy ending. You know, I think people kind of expect that, I don't know, be kind of weird, but maybe not. They could go with their se ways and sort of feebly.
- [21:52]
Frank
You're overthinking yourself. Now, as we were discussing at the beginning, the thing that was great about Rob Reiner is that he understood what audiences wanted, right? Like he was not, he was not out there to wrong foot the audience. He was not there. And this isn't to say that he was easily predictable or that his movies were not surprising in interesting ways, but he was a guy who was first and foremost an entertainer. And I'm sure he gets some of this from tv but that's also just who he was. Right. That is like the kind of guy he was. He wanted to entertain people.
- [22:24]
Richard Rushfield
I mean he came from his father. Carl Reiner was one of the. Your show writers, was one of the founding writers of television. So he was immersed in this entire world from birth. And you know, with the entities that go back to the dawn of Hollywood there and you look at that lineup, it's of. Of the movies he made. It's like they're classic Hollywood films. It's like they're you know, full movies for movies for the whole family, for everybody made with like great grace and wit and, and, and just a light touch to them. It's he, he never became this, you know, he, his, his subjects became more serious but he never became sort of serious about himself and serious about the film. He never became like a capital A auteur must be taken seriously. He was always sort of self deflating.
- [23:25]
Dave
In this avuncular way to suddenly what you were saying. Yeah, what we're talking about are people who were kings of the monoculture which is gone. The extent we have a monoculture, you'll notice people talk more about a show if it's been put on hbo Max or, or Netflix. But that was quite inheritance that Rob Reiner had in the 70s with all in the Family and Julie Kavner was part of this, the rotacast. The Norman Lear Rob Reiner universe had vast influence which he. One, he used the whole Norwin Lear and him both used this to advance progressive views. But also it had to be pretty good in order to succeed. And yes, I think Rob Reiner did good by the trust he was given by the American public in making these defining films like from this household that would watch them. We watch the good new middlebrow Rob Reiner movie. I've noticed some people saying he didn't win an Oscar. True. He also, I think he's ignored by the sight and sound list. He's ignored by a lot of the great films of all time list because these are seen as middle brow films and. But why were they so popular? Why they last? Why were they so influential? You already said it. I'm just thinking the disappointment I think some people had in his later films which weren't as good came from how you could trust for two decades Rob Reiner if he was involved with something to make it the best of class for comedy miseries. It's, it's a, not a comedy, it is a horror movie. But it was I think the first the first modern horror movie to get somebody an acting award. Right, For Kathy Bates.
- [25:08]
Frank
Yeah.
- [25:09]
Dave
And we're more almost three decades later. If there is a good female performance in a horror movie, the first antecedent you think of is Kathy. Is this as good as Kathy Bates? Is this Jessica Lang performance as good as Kathy Bates? Is this samurai weaving performance as good as Kathy Bates? For him to do that, that is a heavy burden because a lot of people can have a couple hits and then the next few don't work. But for him to be able to produce best of class movies and find really good talent, because he basically makes Aaron Sorkin right through adapting Few Good Men and then through American President showing the world and Aaron Sorkin that he could make a political drama that strikes all the Americans courts. I see the end of the monoculture and the rise of conservative response to that. A lot of that is trying to unbuild how successful Rob Reiner and Aaron Sorkin were in creating this idealized political culture, this enormous achievement. And I can see why it irritated some people that he was so good at it.
- [26:14]
Frank
It's funny, we here at the Bulwark, me and JBL and Sarah Longwell, we did a podcast and a video on A Few Good Men a month or two back. So I did kind of a deep dive into it. And there's this. There's this very funny moment in one of the special features on the 4K disk, which of course I bought because I have a social. I'm a physical media snob. I need to hold it in my. If I can't hold it in my hand, it doesn't exist. But there's this. There's this very funny moment where Rob Reiner, or I think it was actually Aaron Sorkin is talking about how Rob Reiner, you know, was. He was like, this scene doesn't really work because it's just two people sitting around and then it's two more two people sitting around in another place and they don't. They're not really together. Why don't we. Why don't we have them walk and talk at the same time? There's a very real chance that Rob Sorkin invented the Aaron Sorkin walk and talk. I think it's. I think we have to. We have to give him credit for that. If nothing else. It's a. It's a real thing. And of course, this is used to great effect in, in the West Wing, but also in the American President, which Rob Reiner would direct a couple of years after a few Good Men, which again, like, it is a. It's this, it's, it's a fascinating film to watch now because, yes, it is. It's a, it's a liberal film. And yes, Rob Reiner is this liberal icon, but it's this film that is filled with the idea, Bill, that people in politics can work together and get things done. And that is a hopeful vision. That is a humanist vision that seems to be very much lacking at the moment in the world of politics and kind of everywhere else.
- [27:45]
Sponsor/Announcer
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- [29:17]
Bill
My sense is that he, I got to know him in the sort of anti Trump world and conferences and so forth and then we did this ad we could talk about a minute. But, but I mean, I, I went back and when I met him and dealt with him some, we became sort of friendly, exchanged emails and stuff, you know, occasionally and followed each other on Twitter and that kind of thing. I went back and did a little, little reading up about him. I mean, he was a little more than your typical fashionable progressive type. I mean, he worked hard about political things. He was very important. I mean, on. On same sex marriage. I think he. He was. I don't know if it's his idea, but he was really a play in the rooms, as, you know, of the six people plotting to get David Boyce and Ted Olson together, the lawyers from each side of Bush v. Gore, to have the strongest possible bipartisan crew to go to the Supreme Court and win the case. I mean, he was very. And my own dealings with him on politics, you know, he was. He was more sophisticated than many, but also he was genuinely, you know, the progressives can sometimes go off a little more stress on how terrible everything's been in America for a couple of centuries. Then we want to, you know, we cherish America, we want to improve it. He was very much on the cherish America and want to approve it. I don't think that was just rhetoric. You know, he, I mean, he really was. That was his world. He. That was his father's world, is my impression. That's the world of a lot of, you know, Jewish immigrants of his father's generation understanding what a great thing it was to be here in that world of the mid 20th century. And I do think he never lost that and in fact, regained it, really, in the battle against Trump. So, yeah, I found him both. I mean, Richard said earlier he was a real mensch, and that was my very limited experience with him, but very much my experience as well, but also, I think, a real American.
- [31:00]
Frank
Oh, go ahead, Richard.
- [31:01]
Richard Rushfield
I was just saying American president, you know, it loves the presidency. It loves the white. There's no better depiction of greater homage to the White House, to living in that circumstance. And what's like there, beyond the politics it gets into, it just has real reverence for the institution and the office there.
- [31:24]
Frank
Yeah, Bill, I teased this at the beginning, but it is such a fantastic story. You have to tell us about the time that Rob Reiner taught you to be a great actor. He directed you. He was. You were one of his. One of his stars.
- [31:44]
Bill
It's one of his failed, very minor, failed project. You've overly hyped the story, Sadie. But nonetheless, in 2020, some Jewish Democrats decided that there would be something funny could be done with Billy Crystal and Bill Crystal and. And, you know, be like, he's Billy Crystal was big liberal and I was conservative, and we're both supporting Biden and that could be done. And so they. They got Rob Reiner to sign on. I think he and Billy Crystal were very good friends. And, and incidentally, just on this mensch thing, I would say both Reiner and Chris and my dealings with them and this was on zoom. It was during the pandemic. But, you know, there were many supreme meetings and there were the, we did the commercial a couple of times and they were both incredibly easy to deal with. I mean, I kind of expected, oh, my God, super fast famous Hollywood big shots. I'll be, you know, there'll be seven aids on first to make sure I'm seated properly before they even come into the room. You know what I mean? Kind of, you know, sort of like the way the big shot senators or White House types, you know, they, they, they, they, they, they don't want to waste any time, but they weren't at all that way. And so I actually talked a lot with both of them. We all had New York stuff in common since Ryan grew up in New Rochelle, I believe Rob did, and Billy Crystal on the, on Long island. And I was Upper west side of Manhattan, so we could do a lot of New York talk, you know. Anyway, so we have this ad and so the conc.
- [33:01]
Dave
Billy.
- [33:01]
Bill
It's like CNN and they booking Billy Crystal, but they book the other Bill Crystal, but they booked Billy Crystal and they were both there. And then we both decide we're for Biden. It's fine. So. And it was, it was okay. I think it was. They showed it in Florida. They put a, maybe a few hundred thousand dollars behind it. It was supposed to appeal quickly to Jewish voters, and it made no difference. Biden lost Florida. So that was, that was the. So much that ad. However, I enjoyed doing it. And what I say, what I learned from that is. I mean, this is so obvious. I always feel stupid saying, hey, I learned that Reiner, as I said, Rob was a really a nice man. But also, I mean, I never, I've never acted. I'm no good at it. I never did it. I didn't even do it in high school. I just, it's not, you know, and I don't know much about it either, just as a, even as an observer. So they, you know, they sent this little script. People tinkered with it a little. I had one or two thoughts. I learned it. It's very. 30 seconds. Not very hard to learn. And I thought, you know, I gotta. Okay, I've gotta, you know, I should pause here maybe, or I should emphasize this thing here. I thought I was doing what actors do, you know, to make it more believable. It's not something you think about when you're just on TV talking on a panel discussion about politics, maybe I should have thought more about it, but I never did, you know, all these years. And so we go on and we do the first run through and I'm doing my little lines and Billy Crystal is doing his lines. And I sort of notice, realize Billy Crystal sort of has much more ability to kind of make this more real and human that I met that I sound like someone who's memorized a few lines and I'm saying it. And Rob, he said, that was a good first run through. Now then he said to me, bill, ask a few suggestions, you know, and then very lightly and deftly, you know, pause a little bit between this first, second sentence and second sentence so the audience is not quite sure what you're going to say. Emphasize this word here because it's a little more surprising. But you're doing great. Just maybe move a little in that direction. And he did it incredibly gently and in a humane way. He didn't say, you're awful. By the end, I was still very bad, honestly. And it's, you know, Billy Crystal did not need a whole lot of help. And so it's kind of a slightly ridiculous ad in that way. One good actor and one not good actor. But I gotta say, just as a human thing, he could have been slightly annoyed that I wasn't better. He could have been sort of imperious about it. He was very humane. And so I really appreciate that. And also got some sense. I mean, this is, again, sounds so naive for me to say it this way. You guys study this kind of thing. But it gave me a sense of what a director does though, you know, I mean that, I mean, why it matters, like why a movie directed by Rob Reiner would be better than a movie directed by generic human being, you know, whatever. Because he had such a deaf. This is just a 32nd thing, but such a deaf feel for how you would frame. He changed a couple of things. He had one of us interrupt the other. I mean, he was just very kind of deaf way of understanding. I think what would make it a little more. Make it more effective. And obviously this is a tiny instance compared to doing a serious, you know, 90 minute or two hour movie with, you know, major stars and so forth. But so I very much, I got to like him very much. And we stayed in touch and that's just awful that it ended this way. But what a. What a life.
- [36:04]
Frank
What a. Yeah. One thing that you, one thing that you hear about when you, when you hear actors talk about him, particularly younger actors, the cast of Stand By Me always had the nicest things to say about him. You know, he was, he was, he was very gentle with us. He understood, you know, how to, how to work with younger actors. I would even defend, I will controversially defend the film north, which is one of the most hated films of all time. But he gets, he gets a very nice performance out of Elijah Wood, who is a young actor. He did not have a ton of experience at that time and he's, he is very good and surrounded by like bigger, brighter stars could have easily been an overwhelming thing for him. And Reiner guided him through that nicely. Is just that gentleness, that humanity. This is the word I keep coming back to with Rob Reiner. And it's why I think his movies strike such a chord with everyone. It's why the Princess Bride is a defining kind of fantasy comedy for people of a certain age, is because it is suffused with this human interest and love for people that is, that is not rare, I guess, but it is, it is hard to, it is hard to do well. It just, it's so, as you say, Bill, I don't want to dwell on the sadness of his death, but it really is just such a, it's such a strikingly awful way for such a decent and beloved person to go that I was very much shook up by it. Oh, shook up.
- [37:37]
Bill
And his. And his wife, who I didn't know, she was on one or two of the Zooms, you know, kind of joking around a little bit and teasing Rob and stuff. Tim Miller, our colleague, had dinner with the two of them in New Orleans about a year ago. Maybe they were there for the Spinal Tap too, I think probably. Yeah. And it says a slightly funny story about. Yeah, how she was. They were both, but very apparently wonderful marriage. And also, I think she was also very a mensch or whatever female mensch is. What is it?
- [38:08]
Frank
I don't know. That's not. Richard. One thing I did not really discuss in my, in my obit at all and I haven't seen a lot of people talk about is his work as a producer for, with Castle Rock Entertainment. So, like, this is a business. This is the business part of the, the industry that, you know, folks, folks may not be that interested in, except that if you lament the loss of the kind of like mid budget adult movie, what you are lamenting is the decline of independent production labels like Castle Rock Entertainment. You know, he made Castle Rock Entertainment, made the Whit Stillman movies, Barcelona and Last Days of Glider.
- [38:42]
Richard Rushfield
Clint Eastwood movies he made.
- [38:44]
Frank
Clint Eastwood movies he made, he made other, there were other Stephen King adaptations, right, Like Dolores Claiborne, one of the, one of the great ones. There, there was just all of these, these, these really interesting movies that would again go to cable and they would become beloved on cable and people would watch them over and over again. And we really don't have a studio like that anymore. It's. He was, he, he was again, he was just being the change he wanted to see in the world. Right? He was making things, he wanted to see. His label was making things that he and his partners wanted to see. And we have lost that, we've lost the ability to make those.
- [39:22]
Richard Rushfield
Yeah, yeah. I mean we don't have companies like that anymore. These, you, you had these kind of mid sized companies that just became the home for different directors and different, different filmmakers. And the list of great films and, and shows that Castle Rock make, it's kind of like more than any studio has great films in, any studio has made. You had City Slickers, you had in the Line of Fire, Barcelona, the Shawshank Redemption, the list. It's really an endless list there. And it was just about nurturing and developing different directors and it became a trusted place for them. And Hollywood does not. Hollywood recognized at that time that having that empowering these producers to kind of take care of people under their roof and sort of have paying these middlemen to shepherd projects to the studio was something valuable because you'd have someone, you'd have someone outside of the studio who was really in charge of making this thing good and would fight for that project above all else. Whereas a studio executive has got to watch the, the overall budget and, and, and other things. And Hollywood decided somewhere in the last decade, yeah, we don't, we don't need that anymore. And they've eliminated that. And, and the result is there's no, there is no giant studio that has a, as many great films as Castle Rock did in this decade or so.
- [41:04]
Frank
Yeah, I mean it's the, the, you know, what do we have now? We have pre awareness. We have you. If you don't, if you don't have a brand, if you don't have IP behind it, it's not getting made, it's not getting resources put behind it. And you know, it just is a, it's a, it's, it's a bygone era. It feels weird to say that about, you know, a label that was in existence not long ago that Castle Rock Entertainment, you know, kind of was its heyday, but it just does not. There is nothing like it.
- [41:36]
Richard Rushfield
I mean there were, there were, there were a few of them. There was sort of a constellation of those, those companies, you know, I would say seven or eight of them that were. That were similar to that. To that non scale. They also created Seinfeld which got, which not leave out which ended up giving a fortune to Steve Bannon also. So that's a unintended consequence.
- [41:58]
Bill
Yeah, right.
- [41:59]
Frank
That's one of those. That's one of those weird moments. Maybe we don't dwell on that too much in the comments on the YouTube. Kelsdl said as a kid my dad introduced me to the Princess Bride and Spinal Tap and they remain some of our favorite movies throughout my life. And Dave, again this is kind of my experience with Rob Reiner was I watched Spinal Tap with my dad and we laughed at it and it was very funny. And it kind of. This goes to 11 becomes the, you know, puppet show. Like everything there. There were 17,000 different little lines that just become parts of our, our communal language. And obviously not just me and my dad, it's me and the culture at large. You mentioned watching the movies with your family. Is that, is that also kind of the experience you had?
- [42:49]
Dave
Oh, completely. That you can just. If the mood is darkening, you can quote one of those lines and get, get, get back into it. I would also give. We're talking about Castle Rock. I give them credit to pander to you for hosting Castle Rock is also co produces Whit Stillman's movies. I think not Metropolitan, but once he goes, okay, let's get Whit Stillman to a larger audience. He's got that Before Sunrise, the Linklater movie, which is to me it's not a romantic comedy, but a movie about young romance. I think Is Peerless just the. I want to keep giving him credit for the talent that he raised. And yes, so I found that it wasn't that we went around quoting them. They were just benchmarks for comedy. City Slickers was again not his movie, but the Crystal. And I'm getting a better appreciation as all this stuff goes away or it's absorbed by different members of the Ellison family for how these production student companies worked. But they, they in. In the Weigel household, these were just foundational texts. There's the, the new international version of the Bible that was important. And then City Slickers and, and the rest, the rest of these films. But it was just, it was a. It was understood that if there was it was if you saw the Castle Rock logo, pretty much that. That, that close. If you saw the castlemark logo in the trailer, you marked off that you. You'd go see it and you were confident that when you were catching up with your friends over the holidays or any normal time, you could mention what would happen in. In. You could mention something, quote something from a Rob Reiner movie or something he was connected to from this larger comedic monoculture and everyone would. Would get along with it. Maybe you could have a really interesting conversation, have one person who disagreed with you, but. And then gang up on them because videos have wanted to. But the like. I don't want to make this a whole quoting festival. I do miss that because I'm old enough to watch this stuff and old enough to not like what is replacing it, which is not just from. It feels like from big studios IP and from independent creators using AI to put their IP into dumb videos. I don't think that's a good, good improvement on creative people coming from starting growing up in New York and then this transition to LA as comedians got established in the film industry and made more comedy about the LA lifestyle. What did this mean to Methodists in Delaware, where I grew up? Did we understand New York culture? Did we understand LA culture? Not really. But the way that these movies and these scripts and these actors invited us into the world and showed us their problems. There was always a point in some of these filmographies where it got a little bit too insidery. We didn't quite get it. This is not a James Earl Brooks discussion. But there's that it's all going great until I'll do anything. There comes a point where it's a little too much about the business of Hollywood for anyone else to understand. But when they told these human stories in these and these milieu met a lot to people with very different, very different experiences. And I really do. I really do miss it. I don't think there's anything, anything that's. That's thoughtful that connects in the same way when I find because a DC cliche is. Everyone wants to talk about their job. And that's the opener. Oh, what do you do for a living? It's much more fun to bring up something that people have enjoyed recently and can kind of guess. And it often is. It's not. Did you see that great thing that happened in that original screen, that original movie based on somebody's idea or life and not a cartoon? It's did you see that terrible article? Did you see that stupid YouTube. Did you see that? Stupid TikTok. I really have lost something which. The ability of people to write these, these, these enriching, meaningful stories, even for people who have only. The only thing they have in common is they're humans and they want to get married and have kids. Apart from that, they have very different lives. I miss this, this. These creators who could, who could find that stuff. And I'm not erasing this as Spinal Tap again. People who spent their lives in the music industry lived by that movie for 40 years. And we'll quote that movie that was made by comedians who were not themselves rock stars until they formed that band. I don't know who has that ability anymore beyond like aping what came before. Who is that original? I can't think of someone who is that good at creating something new and mass popular. Not just niche thing that we see and forget about in a week, but Matt popping away that we all talk about a year later.
- [47:31]
Richard Rushfield
Dismissed as middlebrow at the time, but I mean, compared to what we have now, it's like Moliere. So, I mean, they're not stupid movies at all. They, they never took. No, his movies never talk down to their audience. He never dumbs it down. And they're, they're middle far because they're sort of straightforward storytelling without a lot of, you know, torture theatrics attached to it. But it's, you know, they're, they're, they're smart and witty and, and very adept storytelling there.
- [48:05]
Frank
Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I'm just, I, I was just.
- [48:11]
Dave
Oh, we lost.
- [48:14]
Bill
He was scrolling so fast that he scrolled right off the screen there.
- [48:17]
Richard Rushfield
You know, it's a mutiny. We've overthrown him.
- [48:22]
Bill
Who's in charge, though? It's. It's like, it's like one of these coups. We should have a falling out and fight for control of the screen here. He's coming back.
- [48:29]
Richard Rushfield
Stop talking about him.
- [48:31]
Bill
Yeah, okay. Forget what you just said about Sonny. You didn't miss anything, Sunny.
- [48:35]
Richard Rushfield
Oh, now you're. Now you're sounding off.
- [48:36]
Bill
Now he sounds off. So that's good.
- [48:38]
Richard Rushfield
Yeah, we need your sound.
- [48:44]
Frank
All right, how about that? Okay, good now. Sorry, technical snafu done.
- [48:50]
Bill
They're probably giving us a signal that it's time to.
- [48:52]
Frank
Time to.
- [48:52]
Bill
That was a subtle, the subtle bulwark signal with Sonny. He likes to do these four or five hours. Sonny tries to do these. Likes to do these four or five hour discussions, you know, and film by, you know, scene by scene through movies that are 30 years old. So they, they shot by shot breakdown, they pulled the plug of Strip Tease.
- [49:08]
Frank
The Castle Rock Entertainment film. We're gonna, I, I, I do think it's about time to wrap up here though. The, the one thing I would say, I, I, I do think we should like, I don't, I don't want to again dwell on the insipid nonsense of, of Donald Trump, but it's striking that his truth post today has inspired more backlash than I think anything I've seen him, him put out there. Like, even, even, you know, the, the kind of standard the typical right wing folks are like, come on man, let's not, there's no reason to do this. And I, I don't think, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sit here and say this is the tipping point. This is, this is it. They're going to finally turn against him because they never will. That's not going to happen. That's not, that's not what, what is going to happen here. But I do think that he has, he has crossed a line here, that even his supporters are like, what the hell, man? And that is, and that is, that's as much a testament to, I think, Rob Reiner and the work he did as it is discussed and distaste for Trump, which is, you know, kind of, if that's his, if that's his final give to us, then, you know, that's not the worst thing, I guess.
- [50:22]
Bill
No, I had that thought today that Rob would be pleased that he's causing a lot of discomfort for Trump and for Trump supporters. A bunch of senators were busy explaining today that they haven't seen what Trump said and they haven't had time. Very busy people, they can't read a four sentence post and have no opinion apparently about Rob Reiner, who presumably they saw all these movies just like we all did and TV shows, right, when they were young. I mean, it is Trump's, you know, he's a terrible demagogue and he, but he's somewhat successful in beating up disfavored groups, minority groups, you know, unpopular groups, people who he can demonize and, and caricature and you know, talk about how they're all criminals and so forth. Rob Reiner, we've just been saying this, right, was in the most popular TV show of the 70s, made unbelievably popular movies in the 80s and 90s, was then the producer and met a studio that, you know, made a zillion other popular movies. They were not particularly partisan. They weren't partisan at all and were watched by tens of millions of Americans who enjoyed them, including people from, you know, conservative liberal backgrounds and middle America and the coast and so forth. So I. TRUMP Ms. I don't know if he thought much about it. He's just being Trump. But it's a miscalculation to think that you can. If Rod Reiner is, is, is somehow not part of what makes America great, really, and what makes America enjoyable and a happy place to be, hopefully, then you're. You're on the wrong side. You know that that's what Trump put himself on the wrong side of that equation.
- [51:46]
Richard Rushfield
I feel like the, the two times he's come. He's really come at Hollywood stars in a serious way. He loves, he traditionally loves to fight them. But the other, the first time was Jimmy Kimmel, and then this is really the second time and they both. Yeah, the Jimmy Kimmel moment was a real turning point, certainly for Hollywood here. And this is not going to win him any new fans. I think it's. So he's say Hollywood is 20 against him right now.
- [52:21]
Dave
I'd just briefly add that again, just covering politics and being aware of Rob Reiner in the 2000s, 2010s, it just felt like there was an understanding. Yes. Rob Reiner is a famous liberal. He's going to go on tv, he's gonna say liberal things, he's gonna make fun of Republicans. And Republicans didn't say, how can we punish him, how can we jail him, how can we hurt him? It was there goes meathead. It's just, I heard how many Rush Limbaugh segments where he'd make fun of that. It was just not. It was part of the game. It was an understanding that he was liberal. And it's too bad if you were conservative that somebody with his politics made such great movies. But it wasn't nasty. It certainly wasn't vicious about the idea of him dying and that everyone, everyone except who didn't, I guess, is not a Republican member of Congress, had a problem with Trump. I had a problem for all the normal reasons, but also for that. It's just, it was not that long ago where he was. You were allowed to have these sorts of politics and people would kind of shake it off and say good games at the end of it. Have we already lost that? Or is this a very situational thing for the president? I noticed the vice president didn't chime in. So maybe it's situational about Trump. I hope it doesn't last because it was the Idea that this is something that happened in this era where support for one candidate, one in particular, was a firing offense. I get that happened. I'm not saying one event's gonna roll it back, but just. I have strong memories of the years when people could attack Rob Reiner, he could attack back, and that was it. And it wasn't any meaner than that. I. I am as nostalgic for that as I am for every single minute of Spinal Tap.
- [54:08]
Frank
Yeah, yeah. Better time. All right, guys, thanks. Thanks for joining with us. Thanks for everybody in the comments. Sorry I couldn't get to everything here. Richard Rushfield, of course, of the Ankler. He was great. Richard. I just, I do want to read one comment from Carrie on Substack, who says that Richard's column made me cry today. So you've got one. One crier out there.
- [54:33]
Richard Rushfield
Thank you. Or I'm sorry.
- [54:37]
Frank
Yeah, no, it was. It's a great. It was a great column and it was. It's. Again, it was just. It's been such a. Such a bad couple of days and hopefully things get a little bit better here. But Dave, thank you as well for joining us. You've got all sor. Of things going on right now. I'm glad you. Glad you could. You could swing by and Dave. Dave, of course, at Semaphore. We haven't even mentioned Semaphore.
- [55:02]
Richard Rushfield
Great.
- [55:02]
Frank
I also subscribe to Semaphore. I subscribe to everything. Every. I love all of my, my journalist friends.
- [55:07]
Dave
I subscribed everything, everything represented on this YouTube, including YouTube, but more importantly, the Ankler.
- [55:12]
Richard Rushfield
Yeah, yeah, likewise to all of you.
- [55:15]
Frank
And, and, and Bill, of course, who is always here. He's. He's a piece of the furniture. So thanks for. Thank you. Thank you for coming, everybody. Thank you. I hope this was helpful and good for everyone. Have a good night and be safe. What? Go watch a. Go watch a Rob Rider movie. Go watch. Go watch the Princess. Right, Quick roundtable as we leave. What. What Rob Reiner movie are you going to watch tonight, Richard?
- [55:42]
Richard Rushfield
The Sure Thing. Because it's a movie I have really fond memories of and haven't seen for a really long time.
- [55:48]
Frank
So I think the Rewatchables tease that they're going to be doing that over at the Ringer. Good. Good podcast, if you like that. Dave, what are you watching?
- [55:56]
Dave
Actually, I, I'm gonna say sure thing too, because I haven't seen that. That's the one in the classic run. I haven't seen and I've seen Spells have too many times, Bill, Are you.
- [56:04]
Frank
Also watching the sure Thing? Is that.
- [56:05]
Bill
No. When Harry. Mets, When Harry Met Sally. So I could be into the New York nostalgia. You know, Cass's Deli, Cafe Luxembourg, the whole thing.
- [56:13]
Frank
You know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go with the. The mood of the moment. Misery. That's. That's what I got. That's what I got on tap, so. Gonna enjoy that tonight. I think that'll be. That'll be fun. All right, bye, everybody. Thanks for. Thanks for stopping by, everybody. Have a good night. We'll. We'll see you soon. Go subscribe to the bull work. Go sign up at the YouTube hit. Like, subscribe. All that stuff. I. I don't know. I'm not good at that. This is the part of the job I'm bad at. But. But go sign up and subscribe and help us do what we do. Help us bring these things to you. That's what. That's what we like to do.
- [56:46]
Richard Rushfield
Thanks, Frank.
- [56:48]
Dave
Thank you very much.