Macron and France Have Some Strong Words for Trump

Summary

Bulwark Takes: "Macron and France Have Some Strong Words for Trump" – Episode Summary

Release Date: March 6, 2025
Host: The Bulwark Team (Featuring Tim Miller and Claire Berlinski)

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, host Tim Miller engages in a compelling discussion with Claire Berlinski, author of the Cosmopolitan Globalist on Substack. Broadcasting from Marrakesh, Berlinski provides a French perspective on recent geopolitical developments, particularly focusing on French President Emmanuel Macron's critical stance towards former U.S. President Donald Trump.

2. Macron's Primetime Address

Tim Miller opens the conversation by referencing a significant primetime address delivered by Emmanuel Macron to the French nation. The speech tackled two pivotal issues regarding the United States' support and the looming threat from Russia amid the Ukraine conflict.

Notable Quote:
Emmanuel Macron (00:41):
"I want to believe that the US will stand by our side, but we have to be ready for that not to be the case. Whether we reach peace in Ukraine soon or not, we need to recognize the Russian threat and better defend ourselves to deter such attacks. Whatever happens, we need to provide ourselves with more arms, more equipment in terms of defense."

3. Europe's Reaction and Vulnerability

Claire Berlinski articulates the shock and sense of betrayal felt across Europe following Macron's remarks. She emphasizes that Macron's speech was an attempt to reassure French citizens about national defense capabilities, particularly nuclear deterrence, in light of uncertain U.S. support.

Notable Quote:
Claire Berlinski (01:29):
"Everyone in Europe is stunned, absolutely stunned. The speech was an effort to reassure that we have a nuclear weapon here, ensuring that the Russians aren't actually going to invade us tomorrow."
Tim Miller (07:29):
"Macron says, our nuclear deterrence protects us. It is complete sovereign. It's French from end to end. This protects us much more than many of our neighbors."

4. Macron’s Strategic Positioning

Berlinski delves into Macron's broader strategy of advocating for a European revival in defense and diminishing reliance on the United States. She draws parallels to historical French skepticism towards American leadership, noting Macron's efforts to position France as a more autonomous European power.

Notable Quote:
Claire Berlinski (05:14):
"Macron is trying to position himself as the leader in Europe of a European revival. It's very natural for him to say, 'We can't fully trust the Americans anymore,' reflecting a long-standing French tradition of seeking autonomy in defense."

She further highlights the implications of Macron's stance, questioning the functionality of NATO without robust U.S. involvement and expressing concern over the potential collapse of the traditional Franco-American alliance.

5. European Right-Wing Politics and Russian Influence

The discussion shifts to the reactions within Europe’s political landscape, specifically addressing right-wing factions and their responses to Macron's stance. Berlinski mentions Claude Malhury, a centrist from the Horizons Party, who openly criticized Trump, labeling him a traitor.

Notable Quote:
Claire Berlinski (08:32):
"Claude Malhury explicitly calls Trump a traitor. His speech has been noticed throughout Europe and is viewed as appropriate, which is shocking in itself but also fitting."

Berlinski expresses concern over the influence of Russian disinformation and American-fueled far-right movements infiltrating European politics, which could potentially destabilize the region further.

Notable Quote:
Claire Berlinski (10:55):
"My worst fear is that the combination of Russian influence operations and American ones could bring these ghastly parties to power. And then that's it. Then it's game over."

6. Impact on French Domestic Politics

Addressing Macron's domestic standing, Berlinski notes his unpopularity in France despite his pivotal role in European defense discourse. She speculates that while Macron might experience a temporary boost in approval ratings due to his leadership during this crisis, his overall unpopularity remains a significant challenge.

Notable Quote:
Claire Berlinski (12:56):
"Macron is a lame duck and he is widely loathed. This might be a good moment for him, perhaps slightly improving his polls, but he has not been a popular president here."

She also touches upon internal French policies that continue to challenge Macron's standing, such as legislation affecting bakers, indicating ongoing domestic tensions.

7. Concluding Insights

As the conversation wraps up, both host and guest reflect on the gravity of the current geopolitical climate. Berlinski underscores the unprecedented nature of Trump's unpredictable policies and Macron's assertive response as a critical juncture for Europe.

Notable Quote:
Claire Berlinski (07:50):
"What's happened is utterly unimaginable. There's been no planning for this scenario ever in the history of NATO. The American president being a Manchurian candidate—it's not what anyone thought was possible."
Tim Miller (13:57):
"There is a history of people that were not that popular domestically, though, rising to moments at times like this. So, there's something a lot of people are made of."

Berlinski concludes with a cautious optimism, hoping that Europe can navigate these turbulent times without succumbing to far-right extremism or foreign manipulation.

Notable Quote:
Claire Berlinski (13:59):
"If Europe understands the gravity of this situation, they might avoid placing far-left or far-right parties in power in future elections."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Bulwark Takes provides a nuanced analysis of Macron's recent address and its implications for France and Europe as a whole. Through Claire Berlinski's insightful commentary, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the shifting dynamics in international alliances, the challenges facing European unity, and the internal political struggles that could shape the continent's future.

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For more in-depth perspectives, subscribe to The Bulwark's feed and stay informed with their comprehensive analyses on current global events.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Hey, guys, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark, and I'm delighted to be here with somebody I've been reading for a long time, Claire Berlinski. She writes the Cosmopolitan Globalist on Substack. She's based in Paris, and true to the name of the substack, she's coming at us from Marrakesh, a real cosmopolitan globalist. What's happening, Claire?

[Claire Berlinski]

Hey, everyone out there in Bulwark Land. I'm a big fan of the Bulwark, so I'm delighted to be tuning in from Marrakesh.

[Tim Miller]

All right, check out her subsec, if you like what she has to say up next. But there was a primetime address that President Macron gave France. Obviously, I wanted to bring in somebody who's among the French to talk about it with. There were two key points, but let's play one clip first, then we'll come back on the other side.

[Emmanuel Macron]

I want to believe that the US Will stand by our side, but we have to be ready for that not to be the case. Whether we reach peace in Ukraine soon or not, we need to be able to recognize the Russian threat and better defend ourselves in order to deter such attacks. Whatever happens, we need to provide ourselves with more arms, more equipment in terms of defense.

[Tim Miller]

Before we get to the nuclear part of this, I want to talk about him saying that he wants to believe that the US Will stand by our side, but we have to be ready for that not to be the case. A pretty striking comment and very direct. What did you make of it, and what's kind of the view from France?

[Claire Berlinski]

I think everyone in Europe is stunned, absolutely stunned. And although the writing was on the wall much earlier than last week, I think last week was at the moment when it became absolutely impossible to deny that something was horrifyingly wrong in the United States. And I think the speech that Macron gave was an effort to reassure particularly that we have a nuclear weapon over here, guys. We, we can rest assured that the Russians aren't actually going to invade us tomorrow. But I'm not surprised that he gave a very strong speech. The question is, what is Europe going to do now that everyone has realized that it's panic time and can it actually pull things together in time to make a difference?

[Tim Miller]

What do you make of that? I talked to Michael Weiss about this earlier in the week, and he is maybe an optimist. I don't know when it comes to Europe, at least that, that if there was the will and they have the time, you know, it's like it's going to take a little bit of time that it is possible. I don't know. What, what do you, what do you make of that?

[Claire Berlinski]

Let me give you both the pessimist case and the optimist case. Right? The pessimist case is that not since the Roman Empire has Europe ever united to repel invaders, ever united. In fact, the EU is the closest thing that Europe's ever had. There is no one center of power in Europe that can dictate. We have a lot of problems with countries like Hungary, which are playing for the other team. Europe did repel the Ottoman Empire. It. It's a long time ago. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Claire Berlinski]

And the other. And, and France didn't participate in that, by the way. So the other big problem is that everything in Europe, every bit of Europe's military preparation is designed to work with NATO, which is all designed to have the United States sitting at the center of it, like a spider at the middle of a web. The United States has all the satellite intelligence. It has all the, all the data it has. It has all the software updates for all the fancy advanced new weapons, which don't work if the software isn't kept up to date. It's like your computer. If you don't update the softW, it just doesn't work. And the United States has deliberately promoted itself as the center of the, of Europe's military alliance. So how does this function if the United States is not only not playing for the team, but playing for the other team? That is a nightmare. That is an absolute nightmare. And the sense of betrayal in Europe is the sense of shock and betrayal is like nothing I've seen before here.

[Tim Miller]

Wow. What do you make of the Macron strategy here? Or the political kind of calculation? Right. Because you could, up until again, last week, you saw Keir Starmer coming to the US to be almost obsequious to Trump, right. Like that the strategy was maybe not that he liked Trump or whatever, but that the right thing to do is just suck up and to rub his belly and to tell him it's going to be okay, that you'll be by his side. You're so great. You're so strong, Mr. Trump. And so for Macron to decide to give this. I mean, obviously the text was reassurance to the French citizens, but the subtext really was like a shot across the bow of Trump. It's like that we can't trust them anymore. They might not have our back. We might not be in alliance with them. That was a strategic move. And I'M wondering whether you think that was, you know, out of anger, out of just real politique, like, what do you make of that?

[Claire Berlinski]

Well, there's a few things going on. First is that France is trying to position itself as the leader in Europe of a European revival, which France has argued for. Macron is not the only one who's argued for this, but Macron has strongly argued for this for quite some time. But ever since Charles de Gaulle, you've got the French tradition of saying we can't fully trust the Americans. Remember, France for a time left NATO, or at least it left the integrated system. And so there's something very natural, comes very naturally to the French to say, okay, time for us to take over, and we're the only ones with the bomb, at least the only ones on the continent with the bomb, and the only one with an independent bomb, because the, because the UK's won't work without the US. So it's very natural that he should do that. And I think in saying we don't know if we can trust the Americans anymore, he's saying only what's absolutely obvious to everyone in Europe. I don't know if they even. I don't know if he's even imagining that Trump will hear that speech or care. I think they've pretty much concluded that Trump is not paying much attention to anything outside of what he hears on Fox. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So as long as he's speaking French, there's no problem.

[Claire Berlinski]

He's not being. Is Trump being briefed by someone who would tell him what's going on in Europe? I would be very surprised if Trump actually knows what Macron said.

[Tim Miller]

It's hard for me to argue with that. I guess maybe there's something to. That did cross my mind. I was like, it's because you had seen this in the first Trump. I can't remember the exact example, but where speak in the native tongue. The message in the native tongue was different than the tweets in English, Slightly different. Figuring that Trump would see the English tweets. You've mentioned the nuclear thing twice. I just think it's worth just putting a finer point on it. He says, our nuclear deterrence protects us. It is complete sovereign. It's French from end to end. This protects us much more than many of our neighbors. And so, I mean, that's speaking about the, the, the French side of this. But then he goes on to talk about the nuclear umbrella of France and how they would be willing to protect their neighbors. Again, just like very striking, kind of like an unimaginable thing for the president of France to say, like, three years ago. Right. Like, oh, don't worry, we'll defend you.

[Claire Berlinski]

What's happened is unimaginable. What's happened is utterly unimaginable. And I don't think there's been any kind of planning for this scenario ever in the history of NATO. There's been planning for all sorts of bizarre scenarios, all sorts of threats. But the American president being a Manchurian candidate, that's. That's not what anyone really thought was.

[Tim Miller]

Was on the, on the docket. Yeah, it is. I mean, it was unimaginable here until it wasn't. I guess some of us, like you and those of us who are the bulwark folks, I mean, we've seen this coming for a little bit now, but still, just the degree that, you know, kind of, it's like how it's been a light switch of some of these folks just waking up to the fact that we can't just pretend that this isn't what it is at this point. That, like, who knows, maybe he'll change his mind. He's impulsive, maybe, you know, the rare earth or whatever. But. But no, he's not going to change his mind.

[Claire Berlinski]

He's been absolutely consistent about this since the moment he entered our national discourse.

[Tim Miller]

He's.

[Claire Berlinski]

He loves Russia. He loves Russia.

[Tim Miller]

That's truly something. You flagged another speech for me, and I'm going to let you say his name, Claude Malhury. He is a center from the Horizons Party. It's like a center. Right. Minor party. I was doing some Googling, just a fun side fact. He was the mayor of Vichy, so we've come a long way.

[Claire Berlinski]

Vichy is just, It's a city, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I know. In Vichy France, we've come a long way. But he also says bluntly, the American shield is slipping away. So just kind of talk about the extent to which this is being accepted even on the right in Europe.

[Claire Berlinski]

Well, let's separate the different kinds of right. Malcolm Klei is really a center, right figure. He's a beautiful orator. I've always admired him. I've always admired his French, which, if you have any students of French in the audience, you can hear it's a really beautiful French. And that was a particularly good speech, I thought, and it was very straightforward and some of the language was very appropriate, but it was very strong. And he explicitly calls Trump a traitor. And that speech has been noticed throughout Europe and it is viewed as appropriate, which is shocking. In itself, but also condign. He is speaking, I think, for the majority of France, but he's not speaking for the far right. And what's really interesting to look at is where Europe's far right is going to go right now. And I've been particularly looking to see where Marine Le Pen is going to position where herself and where Jordan Bardella is going to position himself. These are figures in the formerly National Front, now the race de Mont National. And Marine Le Pen is just keeping her head down. She said something about Trump's withdrawal of military support to Ukraine being brutal, being hasty and being. She really doesn't know what to do because she understands that this is not popular and that she has hitched her wagon both to Russia and to Trump, and suddenly it's not looking like such a good thing to hitch your wagon to. So I don't know. She had a decent chance at the presidency a few months ago, but I don't know if she does anymore. And I'll be interested to see the polls when they come in, and I hope they're terrible for her.

[Tim Miller]

It was interesting, her comments about kind of him being too abrupt. A farage also criticized him. I thought that was interesting.

[Claire Berlinski]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And you've seen. I saw this a little bit in Germany, that I think that among the concerns that some of us who maybe aren't living it as intimately as you are had, were like. And with the Russian disinformation online, with Elon owning Twitter, that the far right could infiltrate European politics, Western European politics, in the way that it's infiltrated American politics. And it feels like that is backfiring a little bit. I guess that's one green shoot from.

[Claire Berlinski]

Your mouth to God's ears. I hope so. It's my worst fear is that the combination of Russian influence operations and American ones could bring these ghastly parties to power. And then that's it. Then it's game over.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. You wrote about the Oval Office meeting, that it was the single most shameful moment in American history. You know, the day where everybody's kind of hot. Do you. Five days later, you stand by that single most shameful moment?

[Claire Berlinski]

Do you think of a more shameful moment? I can't. I mean, I can think perhaps of more shameful things that we have actually done, but as a moment broadcast to the entire world. Broadcast to the entire world with the concluding words that'll make great television. The contempt I feel for the two of them cannot be expressed in the English language. Not even in the language of Shakespeare. Can I find.

[Tim Miller]

Can you express it in a different language for us? They're awful. Well, it's interesting. So I guess finally it's kind of closing the loop on the French perspective. It does. Is it overstated to be like this was a rally around the flag moment? I mean, is there splintering around Macron on this at all?

[Claire Berlinski]

It is a rally round Macron moment in Europe. I don't know whether it actually is in France. I mean, the thing that people have to remember is that Macron is a lame duck and he is widely loathed. He is not a popular president in France. This might be a good moment for him. His polls might have gone up a little bit, but basically he has not been a popular president here. And at the same time he's doing this, he's also passing legislations that annoy the bakers. And, you know, French domestic politics are going to go on in their own way. And whether the French. It'll take me a little while to figure out whether the French really get it, whether they really get the gravity of this. That. And if they get it to the extent that they are not going to screw around with putting either the far left or the far right in power the next time they have the chance.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we'll see. It is. There is a long. There's a history of. Not to compare Macron to like Churchill or whatever, but like, there is a history of people that were not that popular domestically, though, rising to moments at times like this. So, you know, there's something a lot.

[Claire Berlinski]

Of people are made of.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Interesting. Claire, I will keep reading you. Everybody else should too. The Cosmopolitan Globalist. Thank you so much for joining the Little Bulwark YouTube feed here. We appreciate it. Enjoy. Marrakesh. Get back out there. Have a. What are they drinking in Marrakesh these days?

[Claire Berlinski]

They're drinking tea.

[Tim Miller]

Tea?

[Claire Berlinski]

It's Ramadan. They're not drinking any booze.

[Tim Miller]

Right, okay, well, get out and have a tea then. And hopefully that will be a calming factor for us. And we'll see you soon.

[Claire Berlinski]

All right, thanks, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

Everybody else, subscribe to the feed. We'll be back.