MAGA Chaos: MAHA in Disarray with RFK Deserters, Project Veritas Leader Goes Off the Rails

Summary

Bulwark Takes: MAGA Chaos – MAHA in Disarray with RFK Deserters, Project Veritas Leader Goes Off the Rails

Episode Overview In the May 28, 2025 episode of Bulwark Takes, hosts Sonny Bunch and Will Sommer delve into the tumultuous developments within the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) movement led by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The discussion also explores the recent controversies surrounding James O'Keefe, the founder of Project Veritas, highlighting significant internal conflicts and his controversial actions post-ousting.

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1. MAHA in Disarray: RFK Jr. and Del Bigtree's Rift

Key Discussions: The conversation begins with Sonny Bunch introducing the brewing conflict within MAHA, a faction of the MAGA movement spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. A significant point of contention is the fallout between RFK Jr. and Del Bigtree, a prominent anti-vaccine activist who served as the communications director for RFK's campaign.

Notable Points:

• Del Bigtree's Resignation: Del Bigtree recently announced his departure from MAHA, citing a need to focus more intensively on anti-vaccine initiatives. This move signals a growing divide between the hardcore anti-vaccine faction and the more moderate members within MAHA.

• Diverging Agendas: The rift underscores a fundamental split within MAHA between those who view vaccines as a "mortal threat" and those who prefer a broader approach to health issues, such as focusing on food safety and other public health concerns.

Notable Quotes:

• Sonny Bunch at [02:04]: “There seems to be some division there between RFK and sort of his top lieutenant.”
• Will Sommer at [03:27]: “Del Big Tree is much more on the anti vaccine side. So him quitting and saying, you know, in his resignation announcement he said, you know, cleaning up the food is fine, but you know, we really need to focus on the vaccines.”

Analysis: The hosts highlight that Del Bigtree's resignation may reflect deeper strategic disagreements within MAHA. While RFK Jr. appears to be steering the movement towards a more encompassing health agenda, Bigtree and his allies seem intent on maintaining a sharp focus on anti-vaccine activism. This schism could potentially weaken MAHA's unified front, making it challenging to sustain its momentum and political influence.

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2. Project Veritas Leader James O'Keefe: From Undercover Maverick to Controversial Outcast

Key Discussions: Shifting focus, Sonny and Will examine the latest developments surrounding James O'Keefe, the controversial founder of Project Veritas. After two years of relative obscurity, O'Keefe has resurfaced with a new documentary titled Truth Inside Veritas, which has reignited debates about his leadership and the future of the organization.

Notable Points:

• Documentary Revelations: O'Keefe's documentary presents his perspective, alleging that the Project Veritas board ousted him due to his reckless behavior, including extravagant spending and inappropriate conduct. He claims that internal conflicts led to his departure, painting himself as a victim of a power struggle within the nonprofit.

• Allegations of Misconduct: The documentary features shocking allegations, such as employees sending him sexually explicit images and accusations of creating a toxic work environment. These claims have sparked discussions about governance and accountability within activist organizations.

• Uncertain Future of Project Veritas: Despite O'Keefe's assertions of plans to reclaim leadership and revive Project Veritas, insiders close to the organization deny any imminent takeover, suggesting that O'Keefe's influence may be waning.

Notable Quotes:

• Will Sommer at [05:19]: “James o'Keefe has kind of been in the wilderness. I mean, this is the guy from all the undercover videos. He's been in the wilderness for two years.”
• Sonny Bunch at [07:44]: “This documentary is kind of part of this weird campaign he's running where he's claiming I'm in talks to retake Project Veritas and he does his videos now in front of the Project Veritas logo.”

Analysis: The episode paints a picture of an organization at a crossroads, grappling with leadership conflicts and reputational damage. O'Keefe's documentary serves both as a platform for his grievances and a strategic move to maintain his relevance within the right-wing activism sphere. However, the skepticism expressed by Project Veritas insiders about his intentions and capability to lead suggests potential instability ahead for the group.

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Conclusion

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a deep dive into the internal struggles within the MAHA movement and the unraveling leadership at Project Veritas. Sonny Bunch and Will Sommer provide insightful analysis, highlighting how these conflicts reflect broader tensions within right-wing activism and the challenges of maintaining cohesion in politically charged organizations. Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the shifting dynamics and the potential implications for future political strategies and movements.

Key Takeaways:

• The split between RFK Jr. and Del Bigtree may signify a strategic pivot within MAHA, balancing between extreme anti-vaccine activism and broader health advocacy.
• James O'Keefe's controversial actions and publicized grievances highlight issues of governance and personal conduct in activist organizations, potentially impacting Project Veritas's effectiveness and reputation.

For those interested in the evolving landscape of right-wing politics and activism, this episode offers valuable perspectives on the fractures and power struggles that could shape future trajectories.

Transcript

[Mario]

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[Sonny Bunch]

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[Will Sommer]

Welcome back to the Bulwark. I am Sonny Bunch. Of course, I'm very pleased to be joined by Will Sommer talking about his latest False Flag newsletter. Make sure you get Will's newsletter in your inbox. It's one of my favorite reads. Two times a week. I. I cannot get enough. Will, what is going on in Maha land? There's some. There's some drama between RFK Jr and one of his big lieutenants, Del Bigtree.

[Sonny Bunch]

Yeah, so this is, you know, make America Healthy Again. This is like, like kind of RFK's faction of Maga. And there has been a lot of drama over the past few months and, and this might be, you know, I don't know, maybe the biggest. Dell Bigtree, which, what an evocative name. You know, looks kind of like a mountain man, big beard. He is a guy who's maybe the most prominent anti vaccine activist in the country besides RFK himself. They were very close. He was the comms director for RFK's campaign. And so they're very tight. And then a few weeks ago, Dell came out and said, I'm quitting the Make America Healthy Again organization, which had a patent pack and all this stuff that was basically set up to promote the RFK agenda. So. So there seems to be some division there between RFK and sort of his. His top lieutenant.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah. And. And where does this division come from? Because I mean, I think we all see what's happening with the world of vaccine, the anti vaxxers. And we're kind of like what, you know, this is. This. What is already happening is too much and too crazy, but it's not enough for his. His most vocal allies. Right.

[Sonny Bunch]

Yeah. It's interesting. There's this sort of. This. This division among RFK supporters between these sort of hardcore anti vaccine people, people who say vaccines cause autism. Stuff like this who really drove his initial rise to popularity in politics. And then on the other hand you have the people who are more broadly Make America Healthy again, the Surgeon General nominee, Casey Means, for example, who say, well, maybe we should study vaccines. They're much more gentle with their approach to vaccines and are much more focused on getting food dye out of potato chips, stuff like that. And the vaccine people look at them and say, we didn't, you know, go through all this to, to like clean up potato chips. I mean they see vaccines as like a mortal threat. And so they think RFK has basically been distracted by the Make America Healthy Again people. Now Del Big Tree is much more on the anti vaccine side. And so him quitting and saying, you know, in his resignation announcement he said, you know, cleaning up the food is fine, but you know, we really need to focus on the vaccines.

[Will Sommer]

And he specifically said he needed to quit so he could sue the administration when he needed to. I need to be able to sue the government, even if It's Robert Kennedy Jr. That's just how we're wired, I keep telling you.

[Sonny Bunch]

Yeah, it's interesting. He said, you know, I have this conflict of interest running this pro RFK organization, but you know, I have this other group that maybe we want to sue the administration over vaccines. You know, it maybe even I'll sue rfk. And so you think about that. And he says, he also said, oh, you know, I don't have any animosity towards rfk. I really support him. But at the same time, you know, if you think back to the Biden administration, if you know, Anita Dunn or Ron Klain had quit and said I might need to go sue Biden, you'd say, you know, I think there seems to be a divide here.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean that seems, that seems pretty obvious. And it is, you know, look, the, the world of the vaccine denialists, the anti vax people, you know, have been around for a long time and it's been interesting as a one time Republican, as a one time, you know, conservative magazine writer, etc. To watch this movement shift pretty swing pretty wide from we are. It's like the kind of nut, nut nutty, the health nut left to the maga right in a way that I have, in a way I have never experienced with any other kind of policy reversal.

[Sonny Bunch]

Yeah, it's, it's remarkable how much it has changed and how a lot of those people who were on maybe the crunchy left are now hardcore maha RFK people on the right. At the same time, you know, I mean, the whole del Big tree thing here sort of shows us a lot of these, these issues are still being worked out. And, you know, I think the reason RFK has at least publicly focused a lot more on. On the food supply or what have you, is because I think they realize that, you know, attacking vaccines, you know, particularly once you go past the COVID vaccine, is going to be, I think, politically pretty challenging.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, people don't like to die of measles, turns out. Let's shift gears slightly and turn our attention to Project Veritas and its founder, James o' Keefe, who is back in the news. You played film critic in your newsletter this week. I, first of all, you know, maybe to run that by me next time. Well, but you, you took a, you took a look at James O' Keeffe's new documentary. What's going on with Mr. O' Keefe?

[Sonny Bunch]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I was going to say Sonny, obviously you're a movie guy. I mean, this is your territory. So I'll be interested to get your thoughts. So James o' Keefe has kind of been in the wilderness. I mean, this is the guy from all the undercover videos. He's been in the wilderness for two years. He got sort of pushed out of Project Veritas, the, The non profit he founded that funded all of his activities and all of these sort of undercover journalists, such as they are targeting Democrats across the country. And then he came out with this, this video last week that said it was called the Truth Inside Veritas. He's been locked in a lawsuit with the, the people, people who pushed him out. And basically from their perspective, they say, well, I don't know, you were like really out of control. You know, you were taking helicopter flights across the country. You know, he was spending all this donor money in what they thought was reckless ways, kind of like a lot of debauched stuff. At one point, they found like women's underwear in his safe at work. You know, there was, there was like these big parties. You know, one employee had a lawsuit saying they had a party pad and one of the employees overdosed. I mean, it was, it was really like, you know, know, allegedly very kind of decadent scene. And then the board stepped in and, and this kind of created this clash where he eventually quit. So now he has this one hour documentary or so called you gotta pay 10 bucks. I, I ponied up for it, you know, for the bulwark audience, because we have to know these things. And this is the sort of the most Self pitying thing. He's basically trying to make the point that, you know, everyone there was out to get him. And I, I believe it, know, I see it, but it seems like they just really found him very annoying and rude. You know, he has all these things where he says, you know, this employee sent me a picture of my face photoshopped next to a dildo. Now this other employee sent me a picture of me eating a cum sandwich. I mean, I am not, I am not making this up. This is like verbatim essentially what he says. And if you just imagine an hour of a guy saying this stuff, I mean it's, it's a feat of cinema.

[Will Sommer]

I, I got to say, as somebody, you know, I've never had such awful things sent to me, but I spent a lot of time online and if I just spent all of my time cataloging the ways people were mean to me, we'd never, we'd never get anything else done. That's, that's, that's just part of, I guess it's different though, because he was working with these people, right? He was, you know, theoretically their boss at Project Veritas, but they were still sending this stuff to him.

[Sonny Bunch]

Well, this is kind of, I think when it was all collapsing. It's interesting. I mean, this, this is not a group of, you know, people who I think are necessarily prone towards like workers rights or workplace unionizing. I think it says a lot that it got so bad that they all had to sort of team up and complain about his behavior. He does admit he was a difficult guy to work for. At one point he plays the audio of his apology to the board. But what I found fascinating here in terms of just how pitying he is about, about how he was treated, it's illustrated with, it's just audio. And then in the backdrop they have these kind of like Renaissance historical paintings. And it's like, you know, an old man crying. At one point he has a painting of John the Baptist getting his head cut off. And it's like, I guess James o' Keefe here is the, is the guy getting decapitated. So I mean, he's obviously taking this, this all very seriously.

[Will Sommer]

That is amazing. I, I will not be watching this documentary, Will, but I, I am glad that you, you highlighted it. Now. He says James o' Keefe says he's going to be back, he's going to be back in Project Veritas, that he is going to recapture his throne and start running stings again. Sending pimps and, and underage prostitutes to ACORN offices all over the country. Once again, ACORN doesn't exist anymore, I guess, but, you know, that sort of thing.

[Sonny Bunch]

Well, you know, he, he's been running Sting still. I mean, around kind of fascinatingly, he runs stings around D.C. often with himself as, like, he'll go on. He's big into like, entrapping people on Tinder or Hinge or Grindr or whatever. And so sometimes he'll be the bait. And then you're like, kind of screaming at this Democratic staffer, like, that's James o' Keefe. Like, what are you doing? But anyway, so he's trying to. This documentary is kind of part of this weird campaign he's running where he's claiming I'm in talks to retake Project Veritas and he does his videos now in front of the Project Veritas logo. But I actually, since the newsletter came out, I talked to someone at Project Veritas who said that's not true. Like, he's not going to retake it. And I mean, basically at this point, he might as well because it's, you know, it's nothing without him. Sort of as everyone expected, it's sort of a shell of itself. But they said, no, he's not about to take over. And so we don't know why he's going on Laura Loomer's show, Tim Pool show, all these right wing shows, and saying, you know, it's about to happen, gang. I mean, I think sort of in business negotiations, typically this is not the kind of thing if you actually were about to retake your old organization, you wouldn't be out there saying, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. So.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, and the, the, I mean, again, the kind of interesting thing about this is that Veritas itself was the James o' Keefe Show. Like, there was, there is no, I guess they, they have tried to do things since. But like, whatever you want to say about James o' Keefe, he's. He does have that kind of deranged, mad genius element of like getting out there and actually making something happen.

[Sonny Bunch]

Yeah. And he's a showman. Right? And, and they have the tens of thousands of, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent supporting his performance in the musical Oklahoma to prove it. You know, I mean, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a performer.

[Will Sommer]

I was gonna say, is he the greatest showman?

[Sonny Bunch]

He certainly feels that way.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah. No, the whole musical theater aspect of this really ties A lot of different threads together, frankly, in the James o' Keefe story, him spending company. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding was he spent company money to put on a production of Oklahoma with him as the star.

[Sonny Bunch]

He was not paying for the whole production, but it was like covering a lot of his expenses. A lot of project Veritas. People had to then live with him in Virginia or around him to support and all this money. To be clear, you said company, that would be one thing. This is a non profit. And this is what made the board go so crazy is. I mean, the vibe you get from all this. Because he shows a lot of their depositions from this lawsuit. The vibe you get is like, they had such a good thing going, you know, we could. They could have just done it forever. But it was getting so bad, you know, in their account did, the misspending, the treatment of employees, they were like, I mean, we could be indicted for how this money is being spent if we don't step in here.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, that's. It's never a situation you want to find yourself in at a non profit for sure.

[Sonny Bunch]

No.

[Will Sommer]

Will, thank you for filling us in on all of the details. In the world of the right wing information swamp, always.

[Sonny Bunch]

I, I mean, there, There's. There's so much to cover.

[Mario]

Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.

[Vito]

I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse.

[Mario]

With family. Cannolis and spins mean everything.

[Vito]

Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.

[Mario]

Introducing the [e-mail] test your luck in the shadowy world of the Godfather slots.

[Vito]

Someday I will call upon you to do a service for me.

[Mario]

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