Bulwark Takes: MAGA Loons Are In Charge (w/ Tom Joscelyn) | April 6, 2025

Hosted by Bill Kristol and featuring guest Tom Joselyn, this episode of "Bulwark Takes" delves deep into the pervasive influence of conspiracy theorists within the current administration and the broader MAGA movement. Kristol and Joselyn explore how extremist ideologies have become intertwined with mainstream politics, the role of social media in amplifying these beliefs, and the alarming appointments of key figures who propagate misinformation.

1. Introduction

Bill Kristol introduces the episode by welcoming Tom Joselyn, a seasoned journalist and senior fellow at Just Security. Joselyn brings a wealth of experience from his time at the Weekly Standard and his involvement with the January 6th committee report.

[00:00] Bill Kristol: "Hi, I'm Bill Kristol. Welcome to the Bulwark Live on Sunday. I'm very pleased to be joined today by old friend and colleague Tom Joselyn."

2. The Rise of MAGA Loons: Laura Loomer's Influence

The conversation kicks off with the surprising influence of Laura Loomer, a far-right extremist, within the White House. Joselyn highlights Loomer's role in orchestrating the firing of multiple NSC staffers and top NSA officials based on her extremist recommendations.

[01:21] Tom Joselyn: "The MAGA loons are in charge. This shouldn't surprise anybody."

Kristol seeks to clarify Loomer's background, prompting Joselyn to detail her history of extremist activities and conspiracy theories, including her association with Roger Stone.

[02:10] Tom Joselyn: "She describes her mentor as Roger Stone... He's one of the premier conspiracy theorists of our time."

3. Conspiracism as the Heart of Trumpism

Kristol underscores Joselyn's point that conspiracism isn't merely a peripheral aspect of Trumpism but central to its core.

[04:12] Bill Kristol: "I think you said somewhere that the conspiracism isn't just a sidebar or footnote to Trumpism and to their ascent to power. It's really at the heart of it. So explain."

Joselyn elaborates on the historical presence of conspiracy theories in American politics, emphasizing how Trump's embrace of these ideas has magnified their influence.

[04:23] Tom Joselyn: "Donald Trump's key insight was that this online community of conspiracists... is much larger than a lot of people realize."

4. The Normalization of Extremist Conspiracies

The hosts discuss how previously fringe conspiracy theories have been normalized under the current administration. Joselyn references J.D. Vance's Hillbilly Elegy to illustrate the infiltration of extremist beliefs into mainstream Republican thought.

[06:00] Tom Joselyn: "If a third of our community questions the president's origin... it's a good bet that the other conspiracies have broader currency than we'd like."

5. The Role of Social Media in Amplifying Conspiracies

Kristol and Joselyn examine the pivotal role of the internet and social media in facilitating the spread and aggregation of conspiracy theories across diverse groups.

[22:25] Tom Joselyn: "The Internet and social media... have allowed a lot of less stable people to connect and to herd and create these online herds that then manifest themselves in the real world."

They discuss how algorithms create echo chambers, reinforcing users' existing beliefs and exposing them to a wider array of conspiratorial content.

6. Case Study: RFK Jr.'s Appointment to HHS

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s appointment as Secretary of Health and Human Services, highlighting the implications of appointing a known anti-vaxxer and conspiracy proponent to a pivotal government role.

[17:37] Bill Kristol: "RFK Jr. is an anti-vaxxer and a real kook... and yet he's in charge of the government's part of it."

Joselyn explains the quid pro quo between Trump and RFK Jr., illustrating how embracing conspiracy theories can be a strategic move for political gain.

[18:21] Tom Joselyn: "RFK Jr. received a quid pro quo from Donald Trump... This shows how powerful Trump thinks conspiracism is for his political."

7. Comparing Past and Present Conspiracy Movements: Birtherism to Today

Kristol reminisces about Trump's early involvement with the birther conspiracy, pondering whether Trump foresaw the political capital that such theories could generate.

[26:22] Bill Kristol: "In 2011, Trump started toying with and publicizing the birther... I wonder if Trump saw a little earlier than most of us how powerful that conspiracy stuff was."

Joselyn concurs, emphasizing that Trump's early recognition of the vast online conspiracist community was a strategic maneuver to galvanize a loyal base.

[28:17] Tom Joselyn: "Trump understood... that this online community is vast... and will be a key constituency for his political base."

8. The Influence of Elon Musk and Other Figures

The discussion broadens to include influential figures like Elon Musk, who Joselyn accuses of embracing and propagating conspiracy theories, further entrenching these ideas within mainstream discourse.

[30:36] Bill Kristol: "And now we have all the people who rode the conspiracy wave to power in positions of power."

[31:33] Tom Joselyn: "Elon Musk is one of the biggest spreaders of misinformation... his conspiracy theories about COVID and elections."

9. Conclusions: The State of Democracy and Future Implications

Closing the conversation, Kristol and Joselyn reflect on the dire implications of conspiracism's rise to power, pondering the future of American democracy amidst the normalization of extremist ideologies.

[33:07] Tom Joselyn: "It's politically powerful for them. All these policies and real-world effects are a direct consequence."

[34:16] Bill Kristol: "This has been really fascinating... and thank you all for joining us on the Bulwark on Sunday."

Key Takeaways:

• Conspiracism as a Political Tool: The MAGA movement has harnessed conspiracy theories not just as fringe beliefs but as central pillars of their political strategy, enabling them to undermine institutional trust and promote extremist agendas.

• Influential Extremists in Power: Figures like Laura Loomer and RFK Jr. exemplify how conspiracy theorists have ascended to positions of power, directly influencing policy and governance.

• Social Media as an Amplifier: The internet has facilitated the convergence of diverse conspiracist groups, creating potent echo chambers that reinforce and spread misinformation.

• Normalization of Extremist Ideas: Once dismissed as fringe, conspiracy theories have become mainstream, permeating political discourse and undermining democratic institutions.

• Future Threats to Democracy: The entrenched position of conspiracists within the administration poses significant challenges to governance, policy-making, and the foundational principles of democracy.

For those concerned about the trajectory of American politics and the encroachment of extremist ideologies into mainstream governance, this episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the forces at play and the potential ramifications for the nation's future.