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- [00:00]
Andrew Egger
Hi, this is Andrew Egger with the Bulwark. The mainstream media knows how it's covering the Pete Hegseth story. He's having a crazy time. He's in over his head. He's the things are falling apart around him. His advisors are getting fired left and right. Things are crazy at the Department of Defense. Conservative media not quite so sure how to, how to wrap itself around this story in such a way that it keeps cannons pointed in the correct direction, which is at the enemies. Whichever enemy, whichever particular conservative podcaster or host or whatever has an axe to grind toward. We're going to talk about all that. We're going to figure out how conservative media is rallying around Pete Hegseth and agitating against his various enemies. Here to talk about it, Will Summer, our great conservative media reporter. Will, what's going on? Pete Hegseth, we all know he's, he's having a bit of a hard time. We've talked about that a lot on his channel. How is this all kind of getting digested down at the level of right wing media?
- [00:52]
Will Summer
Yeah, I mean, so this is sort of a fascinating subplot for me that you mentioned the fired aides. And so basically three kind of high ranking officials last week in the Defense Department, at least two of them were kind of frog marched out by security. These are longtime Pete Hegseth associates pals. And they were supposedly ousted for leaking as part of this leak investigation. And so this has become this kind of like big discussion point in conservative media. What did these guys do? Are they innocent? Are they martyrs? Are they like sinister agents of the deep state, whatever? And so I, I looked into this and there's sort of this interesting narrative that's broken out where Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly, who more or less politically I think are on the same page most of the time, are now really at odds. Then three days ago, he was fired from the Pentagon, but not for his views on Iran. No, Dan Caldwell was fired because reporters are told off the record he had leaked classified documents to the media. But what were these classified documents exactly? Well, no one at the Pentagon could know the answer to that because Dan Caldwell's phone was never examined, nor was he given a polygraph. So actually beneath the headlines was nothing other than a false accusation. Was Dan Caldwell fired because he opposed the push to war with Iran? You decide.
- [02:13]
Unknown Speaker
Will Caldwell and these other two turn over their phones voluntarily to the Pentagon? Will they volunteer them? Will the other two, you know, come forward and offer their own defenses? Will these three voluntarily return any Laptops or other electronics given to them by the Pentagon. Will they allow the Pentagon to search their personal laptops? I mean, all of this can be obtained rather easily by a warrant, which may well yet be heading Mr. Caldwell's way as well as the way of his two now fired colleagues. Because while Caldwell told Tucker he would likely already be under arrest if he'd been caught leaking, the truth is that oftentimes, in fact, I think a lot of the times they fire the suspected leakers, they continue their investigations because they don't want them having ongoing access to confidential information. So they fire them, they continue the investigations, and then when and if they have enough to charge the person, then comes the indictment, the handcuffs and the arrest. All of which could, I don't know, but could potentially be in these guys future. I mean, now is the time for these three to be cautious. I was kind of shocked to see the one on Tucker's podcast, but he's clearing, he's going on offense saying I was fired from my Iran views, not because I leaked. We don't know whether that's true.
- [03:25]
Andrew Egger
Yeah, this is, this is like catnip to me. Right. I mean, because it's, it's so fun, so fun to see how these people are always like batting around these different stories to get them kind of into their own lanes for their own usual hobby horses. I would say that, that it seemed from, from reading you basically where Megyn Kelly's coming down is where Pete Hegset's coming down on this. He's trying to turn it all into. He and she, I suppose, are trying to turn it all into a story about leaking. All about like the real problem here is that anybody would dare, you know, talk to the fake news media and that the fake news media would use that to blow this big story out of proportion about how there's chaos and turnover and nobody knows what's going on and the rudderless Defense Department and all of that. That's basically the Pete Hegseth and the Megan Kelly line, right?
- [04:08]
Will Summer
Yeah. I mean, so. So really to focus on, you know, here, one of the guys who got the, the boot is this Dan Caldwell guy who's kind of been the most publicly facing member of this trio. And so this is a guy who had been with Pete Hegseth for like a decade in various ways. And then he, he gets taken out of the Defense Department. He goes on Tucker Carlson show. Tucker says, well, you know, Dan was just standing against the rush to war with Iran. And so that's why kind of These nefarious elements that we aren't exactly going to name. They, they framed him for leaking, perhaps, and then, you know, whatever, right? But then it gets interesting because a day later, Megan Kelly goes on her show and basically says, you know, time to fit this guy for a prison jumpsuit. You know, she says, you know, this trio there, they probably did do it, you know, and I think it's time for one of them to go cut a deal because the rest are going to be facing prison time. And it's like, whoa, I thought just last night on Tucker, this guy was just like martyr to the America first.
- [05:04]
Andrew Egger
Movement. Yeah, yeah, I do wonder. I mean, like, it's, it's always interesting. It's not like Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly are on the same network anymore. They don't necessarily need to reconcile their two positions. I always, I always have a bit of a soft spot. I mean, Tucker's brand of lunacy is sort of like, of a, of a more rarefied quality, I think, than, than Megyn Kelly's. Meg Kelly's just doing the, basically the administration line and pressing the pedal all the way down on the outrage about it. Right. But the story, the underlying story is a little bit boring. Is like this guy's leaking to reporters and he needs to, you know, get sent to Guantanamo Bay for that or whatever. But Tucker, Tucker, like, gives it that extra secret twist, right? That the special, the special sauce of like. No, this is actually all part of a much more nefarious plot among people still at the, still at the Pentagon who are trying to, you know, it's the neocons. It's the neocons who are trying to, to, you know, twiddle the various knobs and dials such that we will imminently begin to bomb Iran. Is this, I mean, when you, when you follow just like the way these things filter down, I don't know how much you've paid attention to, like, you know, different conservative reactions to this stuff online. I mean, is. It's been my impression that Tucker Carlson is kind of like he speaks to a, a splinter of the kind of online conservative movement who like, lives and dies by the stuff he talks about. They're, they're also into all this, you know, the, the idiot, the more idiosyncratic stuff, the more like America first anti neocon type stuff. Is that, is that the way this is kind of like playing out here with, with, with regard to the way, you know, other conservatives are reacting to this stuff? Or are they more just mad about the leakers? Like Megan Kelly and Pete Hexif.
- [06:34]
Will Summer
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I do think there's kind of like that, like, kind of paleo con, like, kind of like dovish faction that, that is, you know, marked by, you know, kind of a tucker kind of isolationism. Whereas in Megyn Kelly's case, I think what she's serving out here is, is like the vengeance. And it's really like, we caught the leaker is like, you know, at one point she says, you know, yeah, these guys could be going to prison. You know, it's gonna be heavy terms. And this is, it's not just what Pete Hegseth's saying, but also it's very kind of Trumpian thing to have these because you say, like, wait a minute, weren't these guys like your best buddies up until last week? What. What happened? And then suddenly it's just like, oh, that turns out that guy, that guy's been, been undermining me the whole time. You know, out he's out he goes. And, you know, certainly looking at the, the first Trump administration classic like, oh, I love General Mattis and Derek, gotta go. And, and so it's just interesting to see this kind of narrative split. And, you know, you also have someone like Steve Bannon who is, you know, kind of a very crafty operator himself. He then went on Megan Kelly and she was just like, you know, don't you think this Dan Caldwell guy is a big time crook, essentially? And he said, well, you know, maybe this guy's ideologically aligned with me, with me. But, you know, I also kind of see the way the wind's blowing. So maybe he's not a leaker, but, you know, let's, you know, maybe it's not prison time quite yet, but let's set him aside while we kind of pursue our own agenda.
- [07:52]
Andrew Egger
Right, right, right. Obviously we're talking about a lot of, like, the different ways that different figures are spinning this. But, but as for our purposes, I mean, a lot of it does sort of come to the same thing. Right. Because the, I mean, you, you wrote, you wrote about this in your newsletter. That kind of the subtext of both of these stories is Pete Hegseth does not have a good handle personally on what's going on at his defense department right now.
- [08:11]
Will Summer
Yeah, I mean, these kind of huge conflagrations and this is all like sort of an outgrowth of Signal Gate. These are always interesting because there isn't really a like, pat response line, you know, from the administration or right wing media for A while. And the initial one to signal gate was like, it doesn't matter. Don't worry about it. You know, which. Which. Which sort of wasn't meaty enough even for their audience. So then they had to. To spin a couple more options. And so in this case, the obvious story is one that's very hard for them to swallow, which is that Pete Hegseth is completely incompetent and out of his depth. Everything's falling apart around him. And, you know, one of the symptoms of that is this, like, kind of weird purge of his buddies, but they can't really accept that, and they can't certainly acknowledge that to their audience. So it has to become either Tucker's side, which is like, the defense contractors want war with Iran and so they're picking these guys off, or it's Megyn Kelly's, which is that petex has best buddies were secretly betraying him. Neither of which is really still that good for Pete Exe. Either way, he's either a pawn of the defense contractors or a pawn of these isolationists, but neither narrative is really that flattering in the first place for him.
- [09:13]
Andrew Egger
Everybody's got to have a story, I guess. We'll.
- [09:15]
Will Summer
We'll.
- [09:15]
Andrew Egger
We'll keep watching that one as it spools out. I wanted to ask you a little bit as well about the other thing you wrote about in your False Flag newsletter today, just to completely change topics. Joe Rogan, he has been obviously having a major moment, if you can even say that, about, like, the most popular podcaster in the world. He's, he's. He's not only the most popular podcaster in the world these days, he's also been much more culturally relevant in the last six months, as all of us in the, the, the media have noticed that he's the most popular podcaster in the world and have started to pay a lot more attention to, like, his political influence and the, you know, the, the world he's building around him as he, as he, you know, his way through the news of the day every day. What's going on in Joe Rogan world these days?
- [09:58]
Will Summer
Yeah, I mean, look, I've certainly been watching a lot more Rogan. You know, I'm doing my ice plunges, my, my isolations, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, in this case, there's sort of this interesting kind of Roganiverse civil war going on where Rogan has been having, like, you know, even for him, it's like, getting a little irresponsible with the guests there. Joe you know, I wrote about this a few weeks ago. He got really, really into some anti Semites, like guys who were just like Jews did 9, 11. He got into this Daryl Cooper guy who was also on Tucker once. This martyr made fellow on Twitter who has a new podcast coming out about how Winston Churchill not say Hitler was the main villain of World War II. And so this has created this rift because a lot of people who kind of like call it like what we call the intellectual dark web, you know, a lot of academics, people like Barry Weiss, this kind of universe of people who were like, ostensibly kind of liberal but were just so turned off by political correctness and the pronouns in the bio and this kind of stuff they've had. They obviously, many of them went on Rogan and had kind of big careers as a result. Jordan Peterson, another example. And now they're saying, oh, well, particularly on Israel and Jews, they're saying, maybe Rogan's getting a little crazy there. So a few weeks ago, Rogan had a debate between this libertarian kind of anti Israel comedian, Dave Smith, and this British guy who's kind of like, they got really kind of like, you know, Lord Poindexter over here to like kind of come down on the more neocon side. Douglas Murray. And this kind of. This set off a big debate kind of within Roganland about whether Joe should maybe chill on having these anti Semites on. And then this kind of climax this week when Jordan Peterson sort of emerges from. From wherever he's been and he has this new. This new theory that psychopaths have taken over the right. Something I think our audience actually might agree with. But the way he's saying it is basically like 96% of us are good and are kind of personalities, what have you. They're good. It's just this sinister 4%, what he calls the dark Tetrad has, has infiltrated. And I mean, it really is like he's kind of coming. He's a psychologist, and so he has like, kind of like a cloaking. He's kind of come up with his own theory to be like, I have a scientific theory that everyone who disagrees with me is a psychopath. But he goes on Rogan and kind of gently makes the point that Rogan has been platforming absolute lunatics. And so this obviously has said, has sort of enraged the alleged lunatics as well.
- [12:29]
Andrew Egger
That is. That's amazing, I guess. Jordan Peterson, welcome to the resistance. You know, the. We want a big. We want a big. The right has gone crazy tent. We're not really well equipped to turn people away from it at the moment. If Jordan Peterson wants to come hang out, I guess that's a good thing. Although it will require a lot of deprogramming on a lot of people's parts. I think just to get over the gag reflex of, of that particular guy.
- [12:51]
Will Summer
You got to start wearing suits. You know, the ones that are like.
- [12:55]
Andrew Egger
Worse, like truly the, like, like the, at the, at the nexus of like going hardest in his fashion choices and doing the worst is he's like in a class all by himself. I can't even, I can't even think about it.
- [13:09]
Will Summer
Yes, welcome.
- [13:11]
Andrew Egger
He is always a weird, kind of a weird guy because like he, he plainly is, is like kind of the opposite of. I don't know. There's one kind of like MAGA media figure who, of whom I guess Sean Hannity is maybe like the, the er, example where you're just happy to kind of go along. You're just doing your thing. Wherever the party line is, that's what you're doing. You're comfortable, it's easy. You get your, you know, you get your stack of papers and you do it on the air. And Jordan Peterson is. And a lot of these intellectual dark web guys, I feel like are, are kind of, they, they really talked themselves into all this stuff, right? I mean like, they're, they're true believers in a lot of it. They're not just putting on an act. And so like when they get a little crosswise of, of some of these guys and they love to fight, they love to mix it up, right? So, so you can definitely see like why he would be one of the guys to go on and you know, pick a new fight with, with Rogan over some of this stuff. I don't know. Is Jordan Peterson still like popular on, on, on the right? I feel like I saw Jack Posobiek or somebody like really going after him.
- [14:07]
Will Summer
He's still addicted to benzos. But no, famously he kicked that.
- [14:10]
Andrew Egger
He can talk about that too. I don't know.
- [14:12]
Will Summer
Yeah, so. Well, it's interesting. He has definitely become kind of like a figure who is going against what we might call the new right or. But like basically people who are like getting into anti Semitism, who are getting really anti Israel by the standards of the Republican Party. Jordan Peterson really randomly like authored a paper with like one of these like legit, like anti disinformation groups about how the, the Jack Bosobic has really embraced this concept of just saying Christ is king. And so they say to like Jewish people. They're like, won't you say Christ is king? And it's like they won't. And so this is this kind of like weird wedge thing online. But yeah, Jordan Peterson is kind of getting woke now. Now that. Now that we're talking about it, I think. I think there may be something going.
- [14:53]
Andrew Egger
On that'll be one to watch, I guess. Yeah, maybe. You know, tune in tomorrow when we have Jordan Peterson on the Bulwark YouTube channel to. To. To give us all the latest developments in anti dark triad psychology. Is that what you said called it the dark. Dark Tetrad?
- [15:07]
Will Summer
The Dark Tetrad Dark triad was kind of the one like a previous thing. And I guess maybe he's added a new one and now it's the dark tetrad.
- [15:14]
Andrew Egger
Does that correspond to the 4%? Is that just like it's 4%? So it's a tetrad or is that a new.
- [15:19]
Will Summer
I think it's like narcissism, psychopathy and like, you know, a couple other things.
- [15:24]
Andrew Egger
But I mean, so we're talking like hard pop psychology here. It's not.
- [15:27]
Will Summer
Yeah, well, I was gonna say, to be clear, it's extremely made up. But. But it's just really like he goes on Hannity and he'll be like, you gotta watch out for these dark tetrad types.
- [15:36]
Andrew Egger
Right, right, right. Sounds good to me. Steer clear on narcissists and the other ones that you mentioned.
- [15:41]
Will Summer
Yeah, I think narcissists, psychopaths, and then I think there's a couple other like, you know, real negative types. You want to stay clear?
- [15:48]
Andrew Egger
Yeah, yeah. Well, I call those the big two among the dark triad. The nice. The narcissists and the psychopaths are. Are. You know, you can stop there as far as I'm concerned. Okay, thanks, Will. We. And we can stop there. We'll stop there. Thanks, Will, for coming on to talk through Pete Hegseth and Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and all of the amazing stuff that's always going on on the right these days. Thanks to everybody out there for. For listening. Share the video subscribe to the channel. Go to the bullwork.com. subscribe to Will's False Flag newsletter. Subscribe to my Morning Shots newsletter if you want to while you're at it. And we'll see you all next time.