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- [00:00]
A
Hey, guys. Sam Stein here again with Will Sommer. And for today's episode, we decided that we were going to coordinate on outfits before we appeared on YouTube, which is why we're looking alike. Will, you look great.
- [00:12]
B
Hey, thanks. You as well. Great choice.
- [00:14]
A
A real fashion icon. We are here to talk about Candace Owens, who is in a bit of trouble. She may or may not have caused an international diplomatic crisis. She is being sued by Bridget and Emmanuel Macron for defamation. And as Will is reporting in today's FALS flag. It's a serious suit. Like, it's a really serious suit. You talk to a bunch of liars who talked about that. We're going to get into it, but first subscribe to our feed. We appreciate it. Click the button. Really helps so much if you subscribe to the feed and share this with your friends. All right, Will, so this has been kind of in the ether for about a week now. I hadn't really been paying honestly like total attention to it. It's definitely been on my radar. And then I read your false flag and I got into like the specifics of what Candace had alleged about Bridget McCrone and I was like, flabbergasted. It is the most ridiculous, outlandish, stupendous conspiracy in a long time. Can you unwrap it in a way that it's never going to make sense, but can you just unwrap it for us?
- [01:21]
B
Yeah, sure. So basically, you know, I've gained this information from watching, watching copious videos. This is an eight part podcast series, you know, and I went into it.
- [01:30]
A
Podcast was that. How long were each podcast?
- [01:33]
B
Oh my gosh, like 40 minutes plus, you know, oh my God. So it's, I mean, strapping in here.
- [01:37]
A
So it's a lot.
- [01:38]
B
So basically the I, I approach it in kind of the same way that you had. It was sort of in my peripheral vision here. I thought this was like when people say Michelle Obama's a man or what have you, just kind of like this BS claim. But, but there is much more lore here and there is much more and gets kind of crazier than just this, this accusation. So, so basically I should say Candace Owens is drawing this from these sort of years old French far right claims, one of which was made by a spiritual medium. So it appears basically the. Just to lay the groundwork for how she got onto this, the Macrons allege, they're basically like, all right, she was leaving the Daily Wire in March 2024. She was like, what's something that's gonna make A big splash for my career. And she digs up this discredited claim from 2021 about Brigitte Macro. She then dresses it up as wow, look at this bombshell new information. And uses that as her launchpad. So basically the allegation is that Brigitte Macron is actually as a woman, Brigitte Macron was never born, but was in fact the man that the non crazy world knows as her brother, Jean Michel Trogneau.
- [02:53]
A
So there is, just to be clear, there is no Brigitte Macron never was born. It's in fact her brother who transitioned to being a woman.
- [03:01]
B
Yes. In, in his 30s. And basically there, you know, there's a lot of evidence that this is not true.
- [03:09]
A
Let's, we're going to get to the debunking but continue on the, the conspiracy because it just gets crazier from here.
- [03:14]
B
Yes. So, so then, so basically, so, so let's say Jean Michel in Candace's telling transitions to being Brigitte Macron. Then she's teaching at a, at the school where she meets Emmanuel Macron. I mean this starts to, to match up as, as her student.
- [03:30]
A
And then Macron did meet Amanda Macron.
- [03:34]
B
But. Go on. Yes, and that's sort of the, that matches up with the historical timeline. And then basically in her telling Brigitte, then the transgender Brigitte sort of seduces Macron and. But then it really like gets. This isn't sort of a May December situation that I think people would find distasteful. So it gets crazier from that. So basically Candace starts elaborating and this is kind of a series of videos she puts out over several months where it becomes, well, maybe Brigitte Macron is actually Emmanuel Macron's father and they're in this sort of incestuous father son relationship. Maybe Macron was, was brainwashed by MKUltra.
- [04:16]
A
What is MK Ultra?
- [04:18]
B
Sorry, I should say the MK Ultra was a series of CIA mind control experiments in the 60s. And so the idea is that the CIA brainwashed Macron as part of this larger effort and maybe there is a connection to the Rothschild family or. And this is something like. That is sort of a unique candicean elaboration. She's also very into this belief that there was this, there was like a medieval cult called the Frankists who like posed as Jews and undermined societies across medieval Europe up until the present day. And so she thinks that somehow there's a Frankist connection here. And this is like even like white nationalist, very anti Semitic guy. Nick Fuentes is like what the hell is she talking about?
- [04:59]
A
You know, like, like he did an.
- [05:00]
B
Interview with her and he was like, well, what the heck are the francas? You're sounding crazy. And so, I mean, this is really like, like, like, like there's a lot of ties into like, like pedophilia cabals. I mean, kind of classic QAnon. You know, I wrote earlier this week about how when Dan Bongino was like, I've been shocked to my core, Candace Owens clearly was like, oh, it's frankist. Emmanuel Macron, reveal time. So this is like truly just like the craziest stuff.
- [05:27]
A
Okay, so first of all, it always comes back to the Jews. It always does. The Rothschilds. It's just proud of my people, I suppose, for being at the center of everything. As for the theory, the conspiracy, it seems pretty easy to debunk this and you can do it by simply producing a picture of Brigitte Macron and her brother in the same place.
- [05:52]
B
Yes.
- [05:53]
A
Has that happened?
- [05:54]
B
Yes, it has happened. I will say were initially like, I think gentler with Candace than you might think. They, when she first started kind of picking up these, these discredited French ideas that they had already dealt with.
- [06:08]
A
Sure.
- [06:08]
B
They said, they sent her an email that said, like, you know, here's all this information, you know, here's a picture of her birth announcement from the 50s that proves, you know, she was born a woman. And you know, also here are all these videos of Jean Michel Trotknog, who's a private person. He's not like that available in the way that Brigitte is. But he did go to Macron swearing in. And so here he is and here he is next to his sister. So you can see that she's not like pulling a mask off or something like they exist together in the same place.
- [06:38]
A
And that wasn't good enough for Candace.
- [06:40]
B
Apparently not. I mean, she sort of, she's doubled down from there. I mean, the conspiracy theory has only become elaborate. I mean, more elaborate. I mean, they initially sent her this email in December and she really kicked it off in the spring and she's really only doubled down from there.
- [06:55]
A
So, so that, that's important though, that. So now we're going to get to the real like, okay, this is all. We're laughing. It's ridiculous. It's the, it's one of the dumber conspiracy theories. I can't believe people are actually, I don't know who's buying into it, but apparently Joe Rogan.
- [07:08]
B
Joe Rogan. A lot of like the Rogan Verse comedians have, have been like, yeah, oh, yeah, well, and this is part of the lawsuit because, you know, they're saying on these big, these enormous podcasts, like Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan will say, Brigitte Macron is 100 trans. She's part of this whole cult. I saw it on.
- [07:24]
A
Good. All right. But it's important to Note that the McCrone sent Candace Owens a email prior to at least the, some of these podcasts going up. And the reason that's important is because it establishes the idea that she knew or should have known that what she was broadcasting was untruthful, and yet she went ahead and did it anyway, which is a standard you need to establish in order for a defamation suit to be successful. So you have talked to, first of all, they brought a defamation suit last week. Tell us a little bit about what is in it and then tell us a little bit about what you heard from libel lawyers, First Amendment lawyers who talked about the merits of the suit.
- [08:08]
B
Yeah, so I mean, this is a, this is a heavy duty lawsuit. I mean, this isn't sort of like a Donald Trump rolled out in the middle of the night. I'm out at the Wall Street Journal thing. I mean, this is a, they've got Claire Locke representing them, which is sort of like the person that's a firm.
- [08:22]
A
Just to be clear.
- [08:23]
B
Yeah, so, so the firm clearlock, they're sort of a marquee defamation firm. They're the ones who did the Hulk Hogan Gawker case. They charge huge amounts of money just to send a cease and desist because their names are so scary, you know, in the media. And so, so they sent it. It's more than 200 pages. And you know, it, it just like kind of knocks you over the head. It's like. And then we said, again, Candace, please, here's more evidence. And then she went and lied about what we had told her. And so it's a serious thing. And so I talked to two, you know, experts on libel law and they said, I mean, this is not something that's going to get knocked down in court quickly or is like a, what we call a slap law against just because someone in the media says something you don't like. I mean, this is, it's, what's unique here is that it is typically in a defamation case, it's, it's one article or maybe one series published over a few days or a video that, that is wrong or allegedly wrong. But in this case, it's this months long, hours long campaign of videos in Basically, sort of like every appearance Candace Owens has, she brings this up, and so there's a lot to draw on.
- [09:32]
A
Has she said any since the lawsuit was filed a week ago or eight days, nine days ago, has she revisited the. The story at all?
- [09:43]
B
So I think best practice here would be to be quiet, but in fact, you know, for the short term and let your lawyers handle it.
- [09:50]
A
Yeah, lawyer would say lay off the topic for a little bit as we sort things out here, Candace. But no, but in fact, no.
- [09:57]
B
She's devoted four episodes of her show. I mean, it's been only a week since this happened, and she's devoted four episodes. So, I mean, she's still really going for it. And I think that sort of makes. That only digs the hole deeper.
- [10:10]
A
Well, I was just gonna say one of the. So as noted in your piece, her conservative compatriots who don't like her all that much to begin with, you should know, but they're not like, rallying to her side here. And I thought one of the more telling things was Erik Erikson, who I think posted saying her defense right now is that actually believes the claims, which I don't know. I mean, maybe she does, but she certainly was told that they are false. So. But she is not getting a lot of support from people in the conservative MAGA influencer world.
- [10:40]
B
No, I mean, she's a very incendiary character. I mean, she. She's basically fired from the Daily Wire. They. They sort of broke up on. On unpleasant circumstances. And. And you know, people like the. Even though the lawyer for Infowars is saying, you know, she's cooked, you know, it's over. So, I mean, I think now the one thing I didn't have a chance to get into in the pie. Candace's husband, George Farmer, is extremely wealthy. His father is a baron in the UK and is known as Mr. Copper for his success in the metals trade. And so, you know, there is a lot of money presumably to draw on here, but ultimately it seems like this is a loser for.
- [11:17]
A
So what stands out about this one is this conspiracy theory is the impact that it could have on diplomatic relations with the United States. You have the head of a state suing a fairly important MAGA influencer for defamation. And this, of course, brings in Donald Trump. And what do we know about the role Trump has played in trying to mitigate this?
- [11:44]
B
Yeah, this is maybe one of the stranger parts of this. You know, it's already.
- [11:49]
A
I don't know about that. There's a lot of strange parts to this.
- [11:54]
B
Okay, so, so at the end of June, Candace came out and said, you know, I've had a big secret about this and that it's, it's that the White House was warning me to stop talking about it. And so she says a couple kind of Trump surrogates have called her and said, look, Macron is holding up the Ukraine, Russia peace process because he's so mad about your becoming Brigitte podcast series. And then she claims she gets a call from Trump himself who says, candace, you know, you've got to cut this out. Macron. They had this meeting at the White House about Ukraine. And then Macron said, I need to talk.
- [12:27]
A
I'll read the quote. This is how Owens says it on her podcast. This is Owens channeling Donald Trump. You must be a very powerful person, Candace, to talk about the President of France taking me aside to talk about your podcast.
- [12:43]
B
You know, I cut out a lot of the other self aggrandize there was, there's a part where she says, Melania says, you're so beautiful, Candace. So, so, so basically Trump begs her to end this, according to her, and she, she agrees to temporarily put it on, on pause to, to save Christian men fighting in Ukraine. And, but then she says, you know, now I think the truth must come out. Now, I should say she also makes this revelation when she's more at odds with Trump because he's attacked Iran. And so I don't know, she's like, you know what, let's just, just let loose on this again. But so I figured the White House would even off the record, just say, you know, will, this is foolishness. Don't run this. This is Candace. She also believes Macron's wife is trans. You're going to take her word for it. But in fact, Stephen Chung, the White House, one of the spokesmen there, said, you know, we're not going to comment on Trump's private conversations. And then he kind of riffed off.
- [13:42]
A
Well, he said we were not going to in private conversations that may or may not have happened.
- [13:46]
B
Yeah. So he's leaving the door open there. He's not confirming it happened.
- [13:49]
A
He's not denying.
- [13:51]
B
No. And that's pretty odd. And so then I asked again more recently after this lawsuit was filed, and they said basically the same thing.
- [13:58]
A
All right, so what's the next steps here? Like, how does this, when do we get a court hearing? Anytime soon? Like, where do we go?
- [14:04]
B
Yeah, so I, I looked a day ago and Candace hasn't filed her response yet. I mean, or like filed with counsel at all. But, but I think this is probably a long, drawn out fight situation. She also, you know, she could do the classic defense. You know, we've seen Rachel Maddow, we've seen some conservative figures do where they basically say, this is opinion. No one trusts me for news. I don't think that really works, though.
- [14:25]
A
Why doesn't that work?
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B
I think they're going to say, you know, she has been putting this out like it's a big bombshell investigative report. Like it's not. Not like she's just riffing.
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A
Right.
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B
And, and, and so then I, I think it's going to proceed.
- [14:36]
A
Okay, well, that's good for you. More newsletter fodder, I suppose. Well, I don't know. As I've mentioned before, sometimes I do worry about you and I feel bad in a way that you watch hours upon hours of this stuff and then write about it. And yet you've come out fairly normal to this point, all things considered.
- [14:59]
B
Yeah, I talked about this recently in our Bulwark Members chat. But sometimes my wife will come down because I do this stuff while I'm doing chores. And so it's just like blasting in the kitchen. And she'll come down and see some kind of, you know, sinister figure crouched over her laptop giving a video, and she'll say, oh, yeah, it seems like. Seems like a guy you'd be watching.
- [15:17]
A
Yeah. Okay, well, if you ever need help, we should, like, develop a code word or some sort of signal that you can send up, you know, Otherwise, thank you for doing this. Thank you for explaining this insane story on this YouTube for us. And for those who watching, send Will regards, maybe a fruit basket now and then. And if not, then subscribe to the feed on his behalf. We'll talk to you later.