Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: Measles Outbreaks Loom as Florida Scraps Vaccine Mandates
Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Sam Stein (Managing Editor, The Bulwark)
Guest: Jonathan Cohn (Author, Breakdown)

Main Theme Overview

This episode explores the breaking news from Florida: Governor Ron DeSantis and Surgeon General Dr. Joseph Ladapo's plan to eliminate childhood vaccine mandates, including for school admittance. The discussion dives into the decision's immediate and potential long-term health ramifications, the politicization of vaccine skepticism, and a historical look at how immunization policies have shaped public health.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Florida’s Move to Scrap Vaccine Mandates

• Announcement Details:
  Governor DeSantis and Dr. Ladapo announced their intention to remove all vaccine mandates for schoolchildren—making Florida the first state to do so.

  • Quote (Sam Stein, 00:53):
    “They are going to end vaccine mandates, including for school children in the state of Florida… which has been, you know, basically medical doctrine for decades now, helping to reduce tons of diseases for children, prevent outbreaks and so on and so forth.”

• Ladapo’s Vaccine Skepticism:
  Stein highlights Dr. Ladapo's well-documented anti-vaccine position.

  • Quote (Sam Stein, 01:20):
    “This guy is a vocal, persistent vaccine skeptic. He’s been on a mission to end vaccine usage or to diminish it since COVID.”

• Escalating Rhetoric:
  Ladapo stated, "Every last one of them is wrong and drips with disdain and slavery."

  • Quote (Sam Stein, 01:45):
    “The administration would be working to end all vaccine mandates. Quote, every last one of them is wrong and drips with disdain and slavery.”

2. Consequences of Dropping Mandates

• Rising Risks:
  Cohn describes the proposal as “calamitous,” both if it passes and for the message it sends, warning of increased risk for disease outbreaks due to declining vaccination rates.

  • Quote (Jonathan Cohn, 02:23):
    “I think it’s definitely calamitous if they pass it. I think it’s pretty worrisome even if they don’t… we know what happens when people aren’t getting vaccinated.”
  • Example: Recent measles deaths in Texas after decades without such fatalities. (02:44)

• Herd Immunity & Vulnerabilities:
  Removing mandates isn’t just a personal choice; it weakens herd immunity, putting immunocompromised and too-young-to-vaccinate children at serious risk.

  • Quote (Cohn, 03:40):
    “It’s not just a decision about your own child’s risk... You are at risk if you’re exposed to [disease]… You have immunocompromised kids... you’re reducing the level of herd immunity.”

• Antibiotic Resistance Threat:
  Some treatable diseases are becoming harder to manage due to resistance, making prevention through vaccination even more critical.

  • Quote (Cohn, 04:55):
    “Much better to prevent it if you can with the vaccine or at least reduce its incidence than having to go back and treat it and increase the antibiotic resistance.”

3. Philosophy & Politics of Vaccine Skepticism

• Reactive vs. Preventative Health:
  Stein notes that the new CDC skepticism, exemplified by an op-ed from RFK Jr., misses the point of prevention.

  • Quote (Sam Stein, 05:20):
    “It’s very clear in this op ed that he does not view the mission of the CDC to do preventative health. It’s reactive health.”

• The “Keep Yourself Healthy” Fallacy:
  Cohn stresses the fallacy in relying solely on individual responsibility and ‘natural’ immunity.

  • Quote (Cohn, 06:30):
    “Kennedy’s philosophy seems to be… you should keep yourself healthy. And if you keep yourself healthy, you have a good chance of not getting sick. But vaccines are this artificial intervention that somehow make you weaker… that is just nonsense.”

• Historical Perspective:
  Americans once universally supported vaccines, remembering deadly outbreaks of polio, measles, whooping cough, etc.

  • Quote (Cohn, 08:08):
    “This used to be a bipartisan cause… you had your fringe on the left, you had your fringe on the right. And everyone else thought vaccines were a great thing.”

• Recent Partisan Polarization:
  Gallup data: Among Republicans and GOP-leaning independents, those deeming childhood vaccination “important” dropped from 52% in 2019 to 26% in 2024.

  • Quote (Stein, 07:12):
    “That’s a shocking number. People have really soured. Not on… just the COVID vaccine. We’re talking about childhood vaccinations.”

4. Real-World Examples: Outbreaks and Mandate History

• California Disneyland Measles Outbreak (2014-2015):
  Stein recaps a pre-COVID outbreak: 125 cases traced to un/under-vaccinated park visitors.

  • Quote (Stein, 10:54):
    “This was a measles outbreak at a Disney theme park… almost all these cases were people who were either unvaccinated or had unknown or undocumented vaccinated status.”

• Risk of Repeating History:
  With the Florida Disney park and Universal Studios, similar outbreaks are “virtually certain."

  • Quote (Cohn, 12:21):
    "We’re going to see this at Disney World and Universal Studios, and we’re going to see it at schools, which was the whole reason we established these vaccination mandates."

5. Details on Mandates and Exemptions

• How Mandates Work:
  Parents must certify children’s vaccination status for school. Exemptions exist (religious, personal belief, especially in Texas).

  • Quote (Cohn, 13:12):
    “If you want to send your kid to school, you have to certify they’ve gotten their vaccinations… most states now have exemptions.”

• Difference Between Exemptions and No Mandates:
  Even with broad exemptions, a formal mandate still protects public health better than none.

  • Quote (Cohn, 13:34):
    “There’s still a difference between a vaccine mandate that has lots of big exceptions in it and no mandate. I mean, that’s taking things three or four more steps down the road.”

Memorable Quotes

• On Vaccine Mandate Elimination:

  • "[Florida] are going to end vaccine mandates, including for school children... basically medical doctrine for decades now."
    — Sam Stein (00:53)
  • “I think it’s definitely calamitous if they pass it... we know what happens when people aren’t getting vaccinated.”
    — Jonathan Cohn (02:23)

• On Herd Immunity and Collective Health:

  • "It’s not just your kid, it’s everybody’s kid."
    — Jonathan Cohn (04:55)

• On the Politicization of Vaccines:

  • "Everything now follows from what political tribe you’re in... that’s the sort of anti vaccine party."
    — Jonathan Cohn (09:01)

• On Historical Amnesia & Outbreak Risks:

  • "We are about to enter a period... where they are going to stop or try to stop childhood vaccination requirements. Is it reasonable to say we can expect things like this to happen?"
    — Sam Stein (12:15)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:30 — Introduction to the episode and announcement from Florida
• 01:20 — Discussion of Dr. Ladapo’s and DeSantis’s vaccine skepticism
• 02:23 — Cohn explains risks and calamitous consequences of scrapping mandates
• 03:40 — Herd immunity, imperfect protection, and risks to vulnerable groups
• 05:20 — Discussion of RFK Jr.’s op-ed and the shift from preventive to reactive public health mindsets
• 07:12 — Gallup polling data: massive drop in GOP support for childhood vaccinations
• 10:54 — Recap of Disneyland measles outbreak as a warning
• 12:21 — Cohn says Florida will likely see new outbreaks in public spaces without mandates
• 13:12 — Explanation of what school vaccine mandates require and current exemptions

Conclusion

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a succinct yet comprehensive look at the public health and political stakes of Florida's consideration to end childhood vaccine mandates. The hosts dissect medical, ethical, and political angles, warning that this divergence from established doctrine could prompt disease resurgence, mirroring past public health crises. The conversation closes by previewing upcoming hearings where these issues will remain forefront in national debate.