Mehdi Hasan: Jubilee “Debate” Left Me Speechless

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Mehdi Hasan – "Jubilee 'Debate' Left Me Speechless"

Release Date: July 22, 2025
Host: The Bulwark Team (Including Tim Miller, Sarah Longwell, and Bill Kristol)

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Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Miller engages in a profound conversation with Mehdi Hasan, the founder of Zateo News, about Hasan's recent experience participating in a controversial debate hosted by Jubilee. Titled "Jubilee 'Debate' Left Me Speechless", the discussion delves deep into the intersection of media platforms, far-right ideologies, and the challenges of political discourse in the modern era.

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Background: The Jubilee Debate Experience

Tim Miller introduces the topic by referencing Hasan's recent debate on Jubilee, where he faced off against 20 self-identified far-right conservatives. Tim remarks:

"Tim Miller: Hey, everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with the man of the moment, Mehdi Hasan... it was a Jubilee. It was pitched as, what was it? One progressive versus 20 far-right conservatives."
[00:00 – 00:41]

Mehdi Hasan reflects on his decision to participate:

"Mehdi Hasan: I decided to do it because... I noticed that my kids and nephews and nieces all seem to know what Jubilee was. There's a massive Gen Z and teenage audience for this stuff... I was surprised... when the quote unquote, Trump supporters I thought I was debating actually just came out and said, no, no, we're fascists, we're racist."
[01:04 – 02:12]

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The Debate: Confronting Extremism

During the debate, Hasan encountered participants who openly identified as fascists and racists. A particularly notable exchange involves a participant named Connor, who unabashedly declares his fascist beliefs.

Tim Miller sets the stage before playing a clip:

"Tim Miller: People think you're overstating it... we couldn't wait for you to come on today. It was too good."
[02:12 – 02:34]

Clip Excerpt:

Connor: "My name's Connor. It's a pleasure to meet you."
Mehdi Hasan: "Are you a fan of the Nazis?"
Connor: "Yeah, I am. Absolutely."
*[02:33 – 03:59]

This candid admission left Hasan visibly shaken:

"Mehdi Hasan: I didn't ask about it. What does the government look like?... And no more votes afterwards. Wow. And if that autocrat kills you and your family, you're fine with that?"
[03:01 – 04:05]

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Analyzing the Room: A Gathering of Extremists

Post-debate, Hasan provides a detailed analysis of the participants, revealing that the majority were white nationalists, Christian nationalists, or fascist-adjacent individuals. He recounts an encounter with an undocumented immigrant who opposed the extremists in the room:

"There was a guy who was a dreamer... he didn't agree with the racists in the room and that his parents came illegally, but they did what they had to do for their family. It was very sad. It was very touching."
[04:30 – 05:02]

Hasan further identifies Connor as a known anti-Semite affiliated with prominent far-right figures like Nick Fuentes, noting:

"He is some guy called Pines App... he's gone on some podcast and said that he's lost his job since going on YouTube and telling millions of people he's proud to be a fascist."
[05:02 – 05:15]

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The Challenge of De-Radicalization

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of such encounters and the difficulties in de-radicalizing individuals entrenched in far-right ideologies.

Mehdi Hasan voices his concerns:

"I'm torn on this. There is a school that says there... some people believe you cannot platform these people because they launder their far-right views in front of a mainstream audience... The counter argument is these people are out there. Maybe it's time to show up and mock these people and point out what freaks they are."
[12:01 – 13:40]

Tim Miller adds his perspective on the complexity of addressing radicalization in the digital age:

"It's really difficult. I do think engaging with it and trying to demonstrate its absurdity is as good of ideas as any. But I don't know, maybe that is wrong."
[15:24 – 15:35]

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The Role of Social Media and Mainstream Media

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on how social media platforms and mainstream media contribute to the amplification of extremist voices.

Hasan critiques the current social media landscape:

"Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and the rest of these guys have a lot to answer for... it's about amplifying the worst possible people. It's about going on YouTube... having an algorithm that... leads to a far-right rabbit hole. That is not organic."
[16:08 – 17:29]

He draws parallels with historical examples of media control:

"It's the same problem as controlling information during Nazi Germany... but now we have TikTok and Instagram and YouTube."
[18:01 – 19:00]

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Anti-Semitism and the Israel-Palestine Debate

Hasan addresses the entanglement of anti-Semitism with political stances on Israel and Palestine, emphasizing the distinction between legitimate criticism and hate-driven narratives.

"They believe Trump's support for Israel not because they're pro-Palestinian or pro-international law. It's because they're Anti-Semites. Blatant anti-Semitism was expressed."
[20:00 – 21:26]

He discusses how anti-Semitic sentiments are pervasive and how they distort political discourse:

"This is useful because at least we'd have to... [have people admit] it's to do with the fact that I will never be American for them."
[25:00 – 25:22]

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Media's Responsibility and Future Strategies

Both Hasan and Miller delve into what the media landscape needs to change to combat the rise of extremist ideologies.

Hasan suggests:

"We need political mainstream parties that can offer people actual vision, hope, substance... We have a two-party system. You simply cannot exclude one party from all airways social media debates."
[15:24 – 16:00]

He also highlights the dumbing down of public discourse:

"It's the attention economy. It is the dumbing down America... it's an episode of idiocracy."
[23:04 – 24:37]

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Conclusion: Reflections and Future Outlook

In concluding the episode, Hasan reflects on the unprecedented nature of his experience and the urgent need for a strategic response to the rise of extremist ideologies.

"Without a shadow of a doubt, this is the most insane thing I've ever done for two hours of my journalistic career."
[28:00 – 28:24]

Tim Miller wraps up by reiterating the importance of exposing and understanding the depth of current extremist movements:

"Say what you want about the old media figures, but it's a different animal we're dealing with now. Media sign Zateo. Everybody go check out Zateo. I appreciate your work, and we'll be talking to you soon."
[28:24 – 28:58]

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Key Takeaways

1. Extremist Amplification: Social media platforms and certain media outlets are inadvertently amplifying far-right ideologies, making it challenging to control the spread of extremist content.

2. Difficulties in De-Radicalization: Engaging directly with extremists poses significant challenges, as many are deeply entrenched in their beliefs and resistant to change, even when confronted with opposing viewpoints.

3. Impact on Mainstream Politics: The infiltration of white nationalist and fascist ideologies into mainstream political discourse signals a shift where extremist views are becoming more normalized and influential.

4. Role of Media Responsibility: There is a pressing need for media organizations to balance the exposure of harmful ideologies with strategies to counteract and de-legitimize extremist narratives without providing undue platforming.

5. Challenge of Distinguishing Legitimate Criticism from Hate Speech: Particularly in the context of the Israel-Palestine debate, it is crucial to differentiate between valid political criticism and anti-Semitic rhetoric to maintain a healthy and respectful discourse.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mehdi Hasan on Extremists' Admissions

  "I was surprised, to put it mildly, when the quote unquote, Trump supporters I thought I was debating actually just came out and said, no, no, we're fascists, we're racist."
  [02:12 – 02:41]

• Hasan on Social Media's Role

  "It's about amplifying the worst possible people. It's about going on YouTube... having an algorithm that... leads to a far-right rabbit hole. That is not organic."
  [16:08 – 17:29]

• Discussion on the Two-Party System

  "We have a two-party system. You simply cannot exclude one party from all airways social media debates. That's impossible."
  [15:24 – 16:00]

• Reflection on the Debate's Impact

  "This is the most insane thing I've ever done for two hours of my journalistic career."
  [28:00 – 28:24]

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Final Thoughts

Mehdi Hasan's experience in the Jubilee debate underscores the volatile intersection of media, politics, and extremist ideologies in today's society. Bulwark Takes effectively captures this critical conversation, highlighting the urgent need for media responsibility, strategic de-radicalization efforts, and a re-examination of the current political landscape to address the growing influence of far-right extremism.

For those interested in exploring further, Zateo News provides additional insights and coverage on these pressing issues.

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Stay informed and engaged. Subscribe to Bulwark Takes for more in-depth discussions and analyses on the ever-evolving news cycle.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Hey, everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with the man of the moment, Mehdi Hasan, founder of Zateo News. And he was just in the modern era, the modern gladiatorial ring with 20 crypto Nazi youth arguing about the future of the country. Mehdi, how you doing? You're alive.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I'm alive. A little bit of ptsd. It's been a few weeks. Obviously everyone saw it on Sunday. It was taped a few weeks ago. I was kind of weighted with bated breath as to what it would look like, what the reaction would be. The reaction has been insane in good ways and bad. But yeah, it's good to speak to you, Tim. I haven't really speak to you about this.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, the. The elephants didn't stampede you. You know, we're alive, I guess for people who didn't watch it. Me and JVL did a little breakdown of some of the highlights. Yesterday was too. We couldn't wait for you to come on today. It was too good. And so some of our viewers will have already seen it. But for those who haven't, it was a jubilee. It was pitched as, what was it? One progressive versus 20 far right conservatives. Talk to people about what it was.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Yeah, so that was the pitch. I did this show because I had seen some of the jubilee debates with Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk and Candace Owens and Jordan Peterson. They haven't had that many progressives or leftists. It's been mainly kind of right wingers sitting in the middle of this circle surrounded by, I would argue, good faith debaters from the progressive side who, you know, Jordan Peterson had a bunch of 20 atheists who kind of engaged in good faith about arguments about God and morality and ethics. And I decided to do it because I thought, number one, let's have a progressive on there. This seems to be a platform with a lot of viewers. I noticed that my kids and nephews and nieces all seem to know what jubilee was. There's a massive Gen Z and teenage audience for this stuff. So I thought, okay, not the kind of audience that watch political content on the Bulwark or Zateo. Very young audience worth reaching out to. And then I thought, look, you know, I love to argue, Tim. As you know, I wrote a book about debating. I don't tend to turn down invitations to debate unless it's in bad faith or I try not to debate fascists and racists. So I was surprised, to put it mildly, when the quote unquote, Trump supporters I thought I was debating actually just came out and Said, no, no, we're fascists, we're racist.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And in case people think you're overstating it, you know, we're only going to do one clip from it. People can go watch the whole thing if they want to, but I wanted to, my favorite clip, because I thought it was most telling and your response was pretty raw. Actually. It was kind of unmet. It was not your Oxford Betty. It was like, what is this fucking real wtf?

[Mehdi Hasan]

It was WTF Betty.

[Tim Miller]

So let's, let's watch it.

[Connor]

Well, my name's Connor. It's a pleasure to meet you.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Took a little bit of a doubt.

[Connor]

I got a pseudonym on.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Fair enough.

[Connor]

Fair enough.

[Mehdi Hasan]

How would Conor's America look? What would it look like?

[Connor]

Well, quite frankly, I think we would deport people who shouldn't be.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I didn't ask about it. What does the government look like?

[Connor]

Yeah, what's the government look like? I would say, quite frankly, it's under a sort of benevolent leader such as Franco. It could be a kind of aristocratic class. Could be someone who picks the autocrat, frankly, the people. I mean, we could hold a vote on it.

[Tim Miller]

Kings.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Isn't that democracy?

[Connor]

Well, sure, you can have a vote to get to that.

[Mehdi Hasan]

And no more votes afterwards.

[Connor]

Absolutely. 100%.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Wow. And if that autocrat kills you and your family, you're fine with that?

[Connor]

Well, I'm not. I'm not going to be a part of the group that he kills because that's the whole thing.

[Mehdi Hasan]

How do you know everyone, even their own supporters?

[Connor]

This point very well in his work, it's the friend, enemy distinction. Right.

[Mehdi Hasan]

You, Carl Schmidt, the Nazi theoretician.

[Connor]

Absolutely. I don't care.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Are you fan of the Nazis?

[Connor]

I don't. I frankly don't care. Being called the Nazi.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I didn't say that. I didn't actually say that. I said, are you a fan of the Nazis?

[Connor]

Well, they persecuted the church a little bit. I'm not a fan of that.

[Mehdi Hasan]

But what about the persecution of the Jews?

[Connor]

Well, I mean, I certainly don't support anyone's human dignity being assaulted. I'm a Catholic.

[Mehdi Hasan]

But you don't condemn Nazi persecution of the Jews.

[Connor]

I think that there was a little bit of persecution.

[Mehdi Hasan]

We rename the show because you're a little bit more than a far right Republican.

[Connor]

Hey, what can I say?

[Mehdi Hasan]

I think you say I'm a fascist.

[Connor]

Yeah, I am. Absolutely.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I'm just checking who's clapping just to get my set of where everyone is on this.

[Tim Miller]

I'm just checking who's Clapping. Because I was checking who was clapping. Yeah. So that's something similar.

[Mehdi Hasan]

That was very early on in the episode. This is like a two hour debate that you're sitting for in this warehouse. And this was very early on. I think it was maybe the fourth or fifth guy to come up to the. I can't remember to come up to the table. So I was like, okay. At that point. This was a moment where I knew, okay, these are not just your average.

[Tim Miller]

Trump supporters, but are they? I guess. I don't. I don't know. I know. What was your sense of the room? There's. There was sort of a comedic element to. I'm just counting 4, 5, 6, but there are 20 of them and it felt like half of them were pretty much explicitly fascist or white nationalist adjacent to me. I don't know. What about you?

[Mehdi Hasan]

Without a shadow of a doubt, the majority were. There's a moment in the recording and a lot of these clips have gone viral in recent days. It's how Jubilee works. One clip that hasn't gone viral is probably the most fascinating part. There was an undocumented immigrant. There was a guy who was a dreamer.

[Tim Miller]

Watch this.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Covered in tattoos, which is a brave move these days given ICE to sending people to El Salvador, as you and I know, Tim, based on tattoos. And he came to be this far right conservative. He volunteered to self identify as a far right conservative, but then sat across the table from me and talked about how he didn't agree with the racists in the room and that his parents came and they came illegally, but they did what they had to do for their family. It was very sad. It was very touching actually. But it was interesting that kind of. He stood out. And I looked around the room and I was like, you're a brave guy, because I'm sure the majority of the room want to call ICE on you right now. So, yes, the majority of them were white nationalist, Christian nationalists. Fascist. Fascist adjacent. What was interesting about it is that that guy there who you just played the clip of, he hesitates to say his name and then says, connor. And I said, how. Why are you hesitating on your own name? Oh, because I have a pseudonym online. I'm already thinking, okay, so this guy already, he's not an ordinary member of the public. He's some kind of influencer, blogger, activist. And then it turns out he's some guy called Pines App. I discover it in the last 48 hours and you know, he's well known anti Semite, well known friend of Nick Fuentes. Well known griper, not sure how he got past the quote unquote vetting. And yet, you know, interestingly in the last 24 hours I believe he's gone on some podcast and said that he's lost his job since going on YouTube and telling millions of people he's proud to be a fascist. So yes, sense of the room was one self professed fascist, a bunch of other fascist sympathizers. Fascist adjacent white nationalists. Yeah, they weren't. I know it's easy to go, oh well you know, all Trump supporters are Nazis fascist, which isn't true obviously, but they do obviously have sympathies with the far right. That's why they vote for Trump. But what was interesting about these people is they were clearly more than just average members. These were people committed to the court. It became very clear to me, Tim, very early on I went with four claims about crime, about the Constitution, about immigration and about Gaza. They didn't give a fuck about three of them. They only cared about the immigration piece. That is what they were there for.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, and I kind of want to explain a little more. I'm curious though, because I did watch the part of the video with the undocumented guy. I wanted a little postscript of that. Did it feel like maybe this was an eye opening moment for him to realize that he was in league with this group? I don't like it.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I got a sense that sitting across the table, I didn't talk to any of them afterwards. I got the hell out of Dodge. But.

[Tim Miller]

You didn't have a glass of tea with the fascist.

[Mehdi Hasan]

But to quote Donald Trump on Ghislaine Maxwell, I wish him well.

[Tim Miller]

Wish him well. Yeah, same your point about the immigration thing, obviously that is the animating issue at the group. But to me the thing why this was, I hope eye opening to people because I think that there is like this notion of it still persists somehow even if Donald Trump has won twice. Like there's these like kind of extreme corners or whatever and they're not that representative but like they're overrepresented online and it's like, well, I mean I don't know about that. I think that immigration is extremely animating among if you go to just a Turning Point USA event or a Charlie Kirk event, that is an enemy issue. It matters. After I was sharing, after the clip I shared yesterday, a friend of mine text and said that there's a son or nephew. Also cited Carl Schmidt recently. This stuff gets into the ether. These guys who are all debating you're now posting online, so I'm seeing their accounts. They have huge followings. They're followed by elected officials, prominent Republicans. Right. And it's not like I think this guy.

[Mehdi Hasan]

This guy I think is followed. The guy we just saw a clip of who claims to have lost his job, Connor the fascist. I believe he's followed by one of the candidates for Texas ag.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so I guess my point is, I don't know, did you come away and obviously there's the experience of being in the room, but like just about the broader project. Did you come away a little bit more alarmed about like the degree. The way. The degree to which Stephen Millerism, if you will, has really kind of infected like a pretty significant portion of the young. Right.

[Mehdi Hasan]

It's interesting you mentioned Stephen Millerism, because this was filmed in la and I remind people this was not filmed in the Deep South. This was filmed in la. No, a little bit alarmed is an understatement. I came away from pretty stunned and it takes a lot to make me speechless. Tim, many people who know me know it takes a lot for me not to have anything to say. And I remember just leaving there with a producer of mine and with the security guard who came with me, who's also a friend of mine who provided security. And he turned to me and he said, that was not a TV recording. That felt more like a low key KKK rally. And I think this is the thing now. This is the masks off, hoods on moment that we're living through right now where a lot of these people thought this stuff 10 years, 15 years ago, but they wouldn't have had the guts to come on YouTube and say it. They wouldn't have the guts to. This guy's lost his job and he's surprised by it. But many of the rest of them are not going to lose their jobs. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Okay, Pine, he's going to raise money.

[Mehdi Hasan]

He'S going to do fine. But the rest of them who said crazy shit, you know, there was a white genocide guy, there was a great replacement guy, there was all the hits, it was all the far right hits. And you know, you and I follow this stuff closely so we can identify it from far up. Like, for me, the minute he said, I'm being replaced, I understood, all right, Replace tick. Okay? These are not ordinary people just expressing legitimate concern about the wages brought down by migrant labor from South America. These are people who are ideologically committed, as you say, to Stephen Millerism, to Carl Schmitt, to great replacement to General Franco I mean, I have debated and talked with a lot of far right freaks over the years, but that's the first time I've had it live in the field. Example of we need a general Franco for the United States.

[Tim Miller]

This is where I get to play the former conservative role here. Mehdi. One of the big splits between William F. Buckley and Now I'm talking. Now I'm blanking out the guy's name. His kid ended up running Media, a media watchdog group. It'll come to me. Was over Franco like it was back then, the original National Review days. There was like a split over a pro Franco faction and kind of like a soft Franco faction. So it doesn't come from nowhere. I want to say I've been watching some of their follow ups, which I think is as alarming as the actual exchange. I'm sure you've seen some of the stuff online. You see this one, a guy who's aotichermes at Hermes, he posted a picture of himself and he said, I didn't go up during Jubilee because Hassan smelled like shit. Did you see that one? Several other guys have.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I can't reveal what happened in terms of the taping and editing, but that's fundamentally untrue what he just said there. Not just the insult, but what he said about what happened at the filming. Got it. He was a super racist dude.

[Tim Miller]

So there was racist shit that didn't make the cut.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I can't comment on that.

[Tim Miller]

Oh yeah, you can't comment on the.

[Mehdi Hasan]

You'd have to ask Jubilee.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, okay. Sorry. I don't, I don't want to get you in trouble there, you know, there's enough reason. What made the cut that doesn't really matter, I guess is one question.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I mean, and look, I've been torn on this stuff. Look, I'm on the left, Tim. Left has a very strong no platforming of fascist principle. I operated on the in the uk, I've operated in the us. There are many interesting people I've not had on Zatteo who I could easily have and get lots of clicks from simply because I just don't want to platform a far right fascist. So for me it was a very a eye opening moment where I kind of said, I don't want to debate you, Connor, because you're a fascist. You've just told me you're a fascist. We've got to wrap this up now. But what was interesting is obviously on the left, there's been some, a lot of criticism. If you go on Blue sky for Example, a lot of liberals upset with me for participating. And I get it. Look, I'm torn on this. There is a school that says there.

[Tim Miller]

Are people upset at you for participating.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Yeah, I think there's a legit. I think there are two views. Right, Tim, There is one school of thought on the liberal left which says you cannot platform these people because no matter how much you beat them up, no matter how you mock them or humiliate them or make fools of them, they make content out of this. They move the Overton window. They launder their far right views in front of a mainstream audience. Right. I believe that is a legitimate argument. Something I sympathize with myself. On the other hand, the counter argument is these people are out there. They exist. Jubilee is a massive platform. Whether I take part in or not is getting tens of millions of views. Maybe it's time to show up and mock these people and point out what freaks they are. So I get both sides of the argument. I do believe they are two legitimate views on that debate. And I'm torn on it because you said, look at their accounts right now. The guy with the baseball cap who told me to get out, who pretended he was an economist, like, he's loving this moment. You go look at his social feed, his friends are like, you owned, man. You won that thing. And the algorithm allows you, as you and I both know, to live in your own little bubble and be reinforced in your own wrongness.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And it is wild. Like, I mean, some of these people, like the guy you're referencing, you had this fight over immigration and his like, the key argument he had was that wages drop like 0.5% for Americans. If you look at the certain studies and like, there are posts I've seen of like, him being like, I owned many over this with 11,000 likes. I guess I do understand that. I guess my question is. I don't know that the answer is letting it foam it. And I guess I do think this is a legitimate question. Jbl, I were talking about yesterday. I'm wondering what your thought is. I mean, like, what is the legit. Like, what is a realistic effort for de Radicalizing? Like, it probably isn't you, to be honest. Right? Like a brown immigrant. Like, yeah, like debating them in Oxford style.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Brown, like brown Muslim immigrant journalists. I tick all the boxes.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Probably not going to be the person that wins them over, but I don't know. And like, as far I probably. The guy that like, is citing, Carl Schmidt is not going to be de Radicalized. Right. But the people consuming this. Right. Like, this is the thing that I worry about. And I do think it's very different. Like I just look back to being a young Republican, age 17, who would sometimes do contrarian stuff that was outlandish or whatever to get attention. I, I'm guilty I did it. But like, it would have been hard for even to find ideas like this, right? Like you're literally like, what, I'm going to go through the library and start looking for Nazi, you know, philosophers. Like it'd been hard to find people who are like, yeah, America should actually be a Catholic autocracy. Or like, like that just wasn't in the dialogue. Right. And so that stuff is a way of seeping in. And I mean, I feel like engaging with it and trying to demonstrate its absurdity is as good of ideas any. But I don't know, maybe that is wrong. I'm genuinely perplexed by the challenge.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I agree with you. It's really difficult. I've tried to have this. Take election denial, Tim, right? I was one of these people who said, I will not have election denials on my show at MSNBC since I joined Zatteo, like that was a principle. But then 2024 came along and you kind of have to drop that a bit because like that's the entire Republican Party or you're not going to be able to interview a Republican. So the purity tests don't work in an age where things are so fluid, the extremes. Look, I don't, I'm not a guy who tends to quote neo conservatives like Max Boot, but Max Boot, I think wrote a piece for the Washing post a while back and he had a phrase that stuck with me. He said there was a time when the Republican Party was a mainstream Republican party with a white nationalist fringe. It is now a white nationalist party with a Republican fringe. I think that's a good description of where we are. And at some point you have to acknowledge that and then you have to decide, what are you going to do about that? We have a two party system. You simply cannot exclude one party from all airways social media debates. That's impossible. So yes, as much as I want to kind of contain these people, I do think two things that jump out to me in terms of deradicalization. One is we need political mainstream parties that can offer people actual vision, hope, substance. Right. Technocrats running the Democratic Party or the Republican Party is not going to work. Donald Trump succeeded because whatever you think of the man, he gave people some kind of vision. It's a Shitty, fascistic, reactionary, dishonest vision. But it is a vision and Democratic party leaders simply cannot match that. And that's just a fact of where we are right now. And that's one point. The other point I think is I do think a lot of this leads back to social media. I do think Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and the rest of these guys have a lot to answer for, right? We know that Zuckerberg and others twiddle with the algorithm to allow these people to get away with this shit. We know it during COVID we know it before COVID we know it election times. And again, that's not about censorship or Twitter files. It's about amplifying the worst possible people. It's about going on YouTube, where you and I are talking right now, and having an algorithm that, you know, multiple studies have shown, you know, a kid starts watching one video and then goes down a far right rabbit hole. That is not organic. That is not something that has to happen. And I do think that is something that should have been regulated or dealt with by the government a long time ago. And I think big tech and I.

[Tim Miller]

Don'T know, breaking it up at some level, I don't. I'm just trying to like think around the world. Like there's not a lot of great. I'm trying to think of like a great example of de radicalization efforts, you know what I mean? I don't know like this example, but like in the Muslim world, like radical Islam, it's like hard to think like a really good example. And I guess post war Germany there was. But I, you know what, we need to have a holocaust before these people get de radicalized. Like that to me is like the frustrating part is it's like, you know, engagement with it. You do wonder if it boomerangs at some level.

[Mehdi Hasan]

It's a worry. The other problem is, of course, as long as social media is out there, the thing about, let's take Nazi Germany, right? You, you lose a war, you have an occupying army, and then you change the curriculum, you change the people in charge of government, etc. Etc. What they didn't have in post war Germany was TikTok and Instagram and YouTube, right? Right now we have the constant non stop relentless attack on our attention and on our brains. And therefore, you know, it's like when people say, well, you've got to go on Fox to have the debate. And I'm like, all right, Bernie goes on Fox or Buttigieg goes on Fox. But then you have like 12 hours of Fox coverage undermining what was just done in the de. Radicalizing. I think it's the same problem, right. You can do all you want in the public space, in education, in schools and in Congress, but what do you do about the non stop, the people who are online 247 being served up this shit 24 7.

[Tim Miller]

That is what control of information and that really is. And it's not modern, but that really would be the more of a comparison. I mean Hitler took control of the information ecosystem in Germany and the schools. And if you look at.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

A lot of the. Like if you look at Assad, Syria, Right. Like there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of opportunity to hear conflicting information if you're a young person. So I don't know, it's not even.

[Mehdi Hasan]

About controlling it again, because people say, oh, you're trying to censor. It's not about that. It's about the fact that we have a social media infrastructure which amplifies this stuff. That's the bigger issue. And that's why I'm getting criticized because people are saying, well, you went on Jubilee and Jubilee's entire business model is to do this for clicks. And I get that, but it's much broader than Jubilee. Right. This is about.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know, I think it's important, I think it's important for people to see this stuff. I don't know that you're the thing that's going to deradicalize.

[Mehdi Hasan]

No, no, I agree with it in terms of seeing it.

[Tim Miller]

Parents should be eyes wide open. I mean, look, you and I are not going to agree on every element probably of the campus protests around Gaza. Like if parents were upset about some of the extreme elements of that. Like everybody should be frickin aware of the, of the extreme elements that are happening all across the country in these little MAGA groups. Because the gripers are not just eight dudes anymore with sunglasses.

[Mehdi Hasan]

No, no. And I think, look, you mentioned campus brothers. Let's just take a quick look at the Palestine issue. I talked about Gaza on that show, right? That was the one area where people didn't really want to come up to the table. They didn't want to debate me because they don't agree with Trump's support for Israel and they don't hate. Well, that's what, that's what I'm coming to. They don't agree with Trump's support for Israel not because they're pro Palestinian or pro international law. It's because they're Anti Semites. I can't say what some of the comments were made off camera, but blatant anti Semitism was expressed. So this idea. And you see the woman, I think her name, now I've discovered her name is Sarah something or another. The blonde woman who also appeared in Sam Cedar's show, she made it very clear Trump is being controlled by one religious group. And I was like, really? Do you want to tell us which group that is Methodists. So to take your point even one point further, it's not just, oh, parents are worried about what's happening on campuses. They should be worried about social media. How about all of us who claim to be worried about anti Semitism should be worried about old fashioned anti Semitism. Are we obsessed over is anti Zionism anti Semitism? Was the placard on campus mean to Jewish people or just Israelis? How about looking at the OG Anti Semitism, the right wing, hey, the Holocaust never happened. Hey, Jews are controlling all of us and all of that bullshit that is go that, that we should be eyes wide open about. And I think that is one place where I will defend the whole jubilee thing and my participation 100%, which is there has been far too much denialism, as you said at the start of this conversation, about how big a group this is, whether it's 20, 30, 50%, it's a big chunk and it is growing online.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I thought there were some really bad placards at the protest, but even still, this group and the way to which they're organizing. Yeah, the way to which they're organizing. Yeah. Is bad. Okay, I want to give you one more swing at the, at the, at the, at the. How this over intersects with the Israel issue. Because there's another thing that's been viral since you did the jubilee thing. And I think that they relate in a way that I just want to explain. These two guys called the Nelk Boys, the Canadian, actually they're extremely stupid. I just want to be honest about this. Like some of the people you debated, okay, I mean, whatever, they had a high SAT scores, let's just put it that way, right? Like they at least are reading the books that they're citing. At least some, some of them there. Maybe there were, maybe there may be some so. So ones too. The Nelk Boys are not that they literally came up as like modern day shock jocks. They interviewed, you know, boxers and stuff and they do fart jokes like that's them. Okay. And then they did an interview yesterday with BB Netanyahu and they get totally co opted by. And BB just knows them and you can kind of see it in their face, like they don't know. They even say they don't know. And I thought that was interesting because when I watched that, it reminded me of your Jubilee. And I think it can be insight like telling for us as we try to figure out how to maybe disaggregate the these groups a little bit and de radicalize some people is that in the Jubilee there were some pretty smart fascists and then there were some people that felt like they were getting drug along, you know, and, and anyway, I felt like that dynamic was pretty similar to the BB and Nelk Boys dynamic. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or on the Nelk Boys thing overall, but you can feel.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I think, I think, I think, I think you're right about the fact that these aren't. The Nelk boys are not ideologues.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Mehdi Hasan]

They're not quoting Carl Schmidt for sure. What they are though is they are on the right. They're proudly on the right. They endorse Trump. They had Trump on the show well before Netanyahu. And we've seen that in a lot of this space. We've seen it with the Joe Rogans and the Theo Vaughn and some of these people. And I think you're right. I think the co opting is quite interesting. I've been very depressed. People are the podcast election. I think the down the big, big downtown. As someone who's made my own name doing tough interviews, what's bothered me most is the podcast space has allowed politicians of all stripes, but especially on the right, to go into safe spaces and not have to ask any kind of difficult question. Not just difficult questions, but even talk to people who know what the fuck's going on, right? Have any.

[Tim Miller]

Not even challenge them. Like blatantly lie. Like, you know, he's like, oh, Iran was. Iran was about to bomb Ger in America. And the guys were like, really?

[Mehdi Hasan]

Yeah, yeah, tell me more, tell me more. Exactly. And I think we've seen that a lot. We saw that with, you know, Theo Von, who I think is, is, is good natured. I think he's got good intentions on Gaza. He said a lot of good stuff on Palestine. But then he sits down with a Trump or a J.D. vance or a Jared Kushner and clearly that, you know, he's not equipped for that conversation. And I think, look, the problem with all of these people is it is good to go back to the point. It is the attention economy. They do have a lot of supporters and followers. And it is, again, this is going to sound cliche and patronizing, but it is the dumbing down America. To go back to your point, it is kind of stupid rules. It is an episode of idiocracy, and it is a very American phenomenon. It is global as well, but it's very American. And I think the reaction I've had from foreigners watching Jubilee, who've been texting me to Americans watching Jubilee, has been really interesting. The foreigners are all like, that can't be real. Those can't be Americans. What are you doing there? Get the hell out of that country. And it is. I think we got to talk.

[Tim Miller]

What do you say to them when they say that? Is that. Are you kind of like, maybe you're right.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I say, I'm here until Stephen Miller and Donald Trump come with the denaturalization police. I mean, by the way, the real arc of that episode, that Jubilee episode is what, five? At least five of the 20 of them told me to get out at some shape or point, that I shouldn't be living there. And it's kind of like, well, you know, this is. This is useful because at least we'd have to.

[Tim Miller]

You're stealing jobs from good, honest white Americans. Like the Nelk boys could be doing these interviews with Bibi.

[Mehdi Hasan]

But, you know, that is really revealing because at least it just kills the lie that this is about illegal immigration. No, it's not. At least we can be honest on Jubilee and have the people say, really, it's to do with the fact that I will never be American for them.

[Tim Miller]

All right, one last thing, because I think, again, as I mentioned, I think we disagree on some of the specifics of this, but just from a political strategy standpoint, your point about how they didn't want to fight with you on Gaza, and I don't know if you've seen, but the Milk Boys have gotten huge pushback from their audience over not being harder on Netanyahu. I do wonder if the Gaza is a little bit of a wedge that, I don't know, could be used in a way to, I don't know, not via anti Semitic conspiracies, but just via humanitarian concerns. I think some of the. Obviously, the Carl Schmitt guy. No, some of these other guys don't want to self ID as bad people, I don't think. And maybe it can be used as a wedge. I don't know. Is that Pollyanna?

[Mehdi Hasan]

What do you think? It's a great question. And there was that moment where I'm up against this Iranian American Trump supporter who's dressed like a.

[Tim Miller]

Was that the guy with the hat and the mustache? We gotta put him on screen now for people who haven't seen him, this guy has the look.

[Mehdi Hasan]

I mean, can I give props to myself for keeping a straight face throughout all of that? But there's a moment where he defends the killing of Palestinian kids by Israeli snipers. Well, maybe they weren't so innocent. Maybe they were Hamas. Maybe they were being brainwashed. And I look around the room and I say, do you guys agree with that? Shooting people, kids in the head? They're like, no. And I said, look, even the white supremacists think you've gone too far, my friend. So there's that weird moment where, as you say, they don't want to be seen as like, we're not child killers. We just want to protect our borders. We just want the 14 words, but we don't want to kill. We don't want to kill foreign children. Look, maybe, maybe. And look, I'm having this discussion all the time, Tim. As you can imagine, the circles I move in on the left in Muslim and Arab American circles, I get this all the time. Oh, you should be allying with Candace Owens. What about Tucker? Why haven't you had Tucker Carlson on your show? Isn't Marjorie Taylor Greene great? And I'm saying, no, no, no, These people don't give a shit about Palestinians. Their animus towards Israel is driven by anti Semitism and by isolationism. That is not what our opposition to Israel is driven by or should be driven by. And look, I have so many Muslim friends who tell me, like, Tucker Carlson's their new hero. And I have to remind them that Tucker Carlson turned up at the Turning Points USA conference the other day and said, I want my country back. I don't want my city smelling like weed and halal is what he said. And I was like, that's who Tucker Carlson is. He's not a friend of Muslims. He just happens to be on this anti Israel move at the moment. Which, of course, look, I enjoyed the Ted Cruz takedown as much as anyone else. But the point is, Tucker Carlson, as someone on the left, I've never adopted the enemy of my enemies, my friend philosophy that Ronald Reagan and co adopt has never been my position. Is Gaza a wedge issue? I think it might be, but not in a good way, Tim. I think it's probably in a bad way.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's sad. All right. Any other final Anecdotes. Any little. Any little dessert for anybody? Little cherry on top From. From your experience?

[Mehdi Hasan]

From my experience. No. I mean, other than. It's really hard to add anecdotes to what was on camera. I mean, it's very like you're asking about the editing. Forget the editing. 1 hour, 40 minutes that went up is. Let me put it this way. I've done a lot of stuff in 25 years as a journalist on both sides. The Atlantic. This is without a shadow of a doubt the most insane thing I've ever done for two hours of my journalistic career. Without a shadow of a doubt.

[Tim Miller]

All right, well, thanks for going into Lion's Den for us. I disagree with the Blue Sky. People criticize you. I understand the concern about giving them viral moments, but I think people need to see what we're dealing with, and it's a whole. Well, say what you want about the Michael J. Fox's character in Family Ties, the blue blazer and the briefcase College Republicans. Say what you want about them. We had some flawed views, but it's a different animal we're dealing with now. And Albrecht Bozell was the pro Franco guy. Bozell. It was Bozo.

[Mehdi Hasan]

Brent's dad. Brent's dad.

[Tim Miller]

Brent's dad. Yeah. Bozell. It was. His admiration for Franco was. Was a rift back in the day. So what's old is new again. Anyway, Media sign Zateo. Everybody go check out Zateo. I appreciate your work, and we'll be talking to you soon. Man.