Bulwark Takes: Mehdi Hasan – "Jubilee 'Debate' Left Me Speechless"
Release Date: July 22, 2025
Host: The Bulwark Team (Including Tim Miller, Sarah Longwell, and Bill Kristol)
Introduction
In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Miller engages in a profound conversation with Mehdi Hasan, the founder of Zateo News, about Hasan's recent experience participating in a controversial debate hosted by Jubilee. Titled "Jubilee 'Debate' Left Me Speechless", the discussion delves deep into the intersection of media platforms, far-right ideologies, and the challenges of political discourse in the modern era.
Background: The Jubilee Debate Experience
Tim Miller introduces the topic by referencing Hasan's recent debate on Jubilee, where he faced off against 20 self-identified far-right conservatives. Tim remarks:
"Tim Miller: Hey, everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with the man of the moment, Mehdi Hasan... it was a Jubilee. It was pitched as, what was it? One progressive versus 20 far-right conservatives."
[00:00 – 00:41]
Mehdi Hasan reflects on his decision to participate:
"Mehdi Hasan: I decided to do it because... I noticed that my kids and nephews and nieces all seem to know what Jubilee was. There's a massive Gen Z and teenage audience for this stuff... I was surprised... when the quote unquote, Trump supporters I thought I was debating actually just came out and said, no, no, we're fascists, we're racist."
[01:04 – 02:12]
The Debate: Confronting Extremism
During the debate, Hasan encountered participants who openly identified as fascists and racists. A particularly notable exchange involves a participant named Connor, who unabashedly declares his fascist beliefs.
Tim Miller sets the stage before playing a clip:
"Tim Miller: People think you're overstating it... we couldn't wait for you to come on today. It was too good."
[02:12 – 02:34]
Clip Excerpt:
Connor: "My name's Connor. It's a pleasure to meet you."
Mehdi Hasan: "Are you a fan of the Nazis?"
Connor: "Yeah, I am. Absolutely."
*[02:33 – 03:59]
This candid admission left Hasan visibly shaken:
"Mehdi Hasan: I didn't ask about it. What does the government look like?... And no more votes afterwards. Wow. And if that autocrat kills you and your family, you're fine with that?"
[03:01 – 04:05]
Analyzing the Room: A Gathering of Extremists
Post-debate, Hasan provides a detailed analysis of the participants, revealing that the majority were white nationalists, Christian nationalists, or fascist-adjacent individuals. He recounts an encounter with an undocumented immigrant who opposed the extremists in the room:
"There was a guy who was a dreamer... he didn't agree with the racists in the room and that his parents came illegally, but they did what they had to do for their family. It was very sad. It was very touching."
[04:30 – 05:02]
Hasan further identifies Connor as a known anti-Semite affiliated with prominent far-right figures like Nick Fuentes, noting:
"He is some guy called Pines App... he's gone on some podcast and said that he's lost his job since going on YouTube and telling millions of people he's proud to be a fascist."
[05:02 – 05:15]
The Challenge of De-Radicalization
The conversation shifts to the broader implications of such encounters and the difficulties in de-radicalizing individuals entrenched in far-right ideologies.
Mehdi Hasan voices his concerns:
"I'm torn on this. There is a school that says there... some people believe you cannot platform these people because they launder their far-right views in front of a mainstream audience... The counter argument is these people are out there. Maybe it's time to show up and mock these people and point out what freaks they are."
[12:01 – 13:40]
Tim Miller adds his perspective on the complexity of addressing radicalization in the digital age:
"It's really difficult. I do think engaging with it and trying to demonstrate its absurdity is as good of ideas as any. But I don't know, maybe that is wrong."
[15:24 – 15:35]
The Role of Social Media and Mainstream Media
A significant portion of the discussion focuses on how social media platforms and mainstream media contribute to the amplification of extremist voices.
Hasan critiques the current social media landscape:
"Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and the rest of these guys have a lot to answer for... it's about amplifying the worst possible people. It's about going on YouTube... having an algorithm that... leads to a far-right rabbit hole. That is not organic."
[16:08 – 17:29]
He draws parallels with historical examples of media control:
"It's the same problem as controlling information during Nazi Germany... but now we have TikTok and Instagram and YouTube."
[18:01 – 19:00]
Anti-Semitism and the Israel-Palestine Debate
Hasan addresses the entanglement of anti-Semitism with political stances on Israel and Palestine, emphasizing the distinction between legitimate criticism and hate-driven narratives.
"They believe Trump's support for Israel not because they're pro-Palestinian or pro-international law. It's because they're Anti-Semites. Blatant anti-Semitism was expressed."
[20:00 – 21:26]
He discusses how anti-Semitic sentiments are pervasive and how they distort political discourse:
"This is useful because at least we'd have to... [have people admit] it's to do with the fact that I will never be American for them."
[25:00 – 25:22]
Media's Responsibility and Future Strategies
Both Hasan and Miller delve into what the media landscape needs to change to combat the rise of extremist ideologies.
Hasan suggests:
"We need political mainstream parties that can offer people actual vision, hope, substance... We have a two-party system. You simply cannot exclude one party from all airways social media debates."
[15:24 – 16:00]
He also highlights the dumbing down of public discourse:
"It's the attention economy. It is the dumbing down America... it's an episode of idiocracy."
[23:04 – 24:37]
Conclusion: Reflections and Future Outlook
In concluding the episode, Hasan reflects on the unprecedented nature of his experience and the urgent need for a strategic response to the rise of extremist ideologies.
"Without a shadow of a doubt, this is the most insane thing I've ever done for two hours of my journalistic career."
[28:00 – 28:24]
Tim Miller wraps up by reiterating the importance of exposing and understanding the depth of current extremist movements:
"Say what you want about the old media figures, but it's a different animal we're dealing with now. Media sign Zateo. Everybody go check out Zateo. I appreciate your work, and we'll be talking to you soon."
[28:24 – 28:58]
Key Takeaways
-
Extremist Amplification: Social media platforms and certain media outlets are inadvertently amplifying far-right ideologies, making it challenging to control the spread of extremist content.
-
Difficulties in De-Radicalization: Engaging directly with extremists poses significant challenges, as many are deeply entrenched in their beliefs and resistant to change, even when confronted with opposing viewpoints.
-
Impact on Mainstream Politics: The infiltration of white nationalist and fascist ideologies into mainstream political discourse signals a shift where extremist views are becoming more normalized and influential.
-
Role of Media Responsibility: There is a pressing need for media organizations to balance the exposure of harmful ideologies with strategies to counteract and de-legitimize extremist narratives without providing undue platforming.
-
Challenge of Distinguishing Legitimate Criticism from Hate Speech: Particularly in the context of the Israel-Palestine debate, it is crucial to differentiate between valid political criticism and anti-Semitic rhetoric to maintain a healthy and respectful discourse.
Notable Quotes with Timestamps
-
Mehdi Hasan on Extremists' Admissions
"I was surprised, to put it mildly, when the quote unquote, Trump supporters I thought I was debating actually just came out and said, no, no, we're fascists, we're racist."
[02:12 – 02:41] -
Hasan on Social Media's Role
"It's about amplifying the worst possible people. It's about going on YouTube... having an algorithm that... leads to a far-right rabbit hole. That is not organic."
[16:08 – 17:29] -
Discussion on the Two-Party System
"We have a two-party system. You simply cannot exclude one party from all airways social media debates. That's impossible."
[15:24 – 16:00] -
Reflection on the Debate's Impact
"This is the most insane thing I've ever done for two hours of my journalistic career."
[28:00 – 28:24]
Final Thoughts
Mehdi Hasan's experience in the Jubilee debate underscores the volatile intersection of media, politics, and extremist ideologies in today's society. Bulwark Takes effectively captures this critical conversation, highlighting the urgent need for media responsibility, strategic de-radicalization efforts, and a re-examination of the current political landscape to address the growing influence of far-right extremism.
For those interested in exploring further, Zateo News provides additional insights and coverage on these pressing issues.
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