Bulwark Takes – “Mysterious ‘Secret Recording’ Accusations Roil CDC Hearing”

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Date: September 17, 2025
Host: Sam Baker
Main Contributors: Jonathan Cohn (The Breakdown newsletter author)
Context: In-depth discussion of a Senate HELP Committee hearing examining Dr. Susan Menares’ recent firing as CDC Director following alleged political interference by HHS Secretary RFK Jr., the subsequent resignations of senior CDC officials, and intense controversy over potential changes to the childhood vaccine schedule, as well as political attacks and sensational rumors of a “secret recording.”

Episode Overview

This episode dissects the bombshell developments from a Senate HELP Committee hearing focused on the recent turmoil at the CDC. The discussion centers on conflicting narratives: Dr. Susan Menares’ testimony about political interference from RFK Jr. (now Secretary of HHS), his push to change longstanding vaccine recommendations (especially for Hepatitis B), and the resignations of top CDC scientists in protest. The conversation exposes the deepening politicization of public health, dramatic claims about “secret recordings,” and a notable shift in Republican tactics—from once supporting Menares to now painting her as a partisan.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. CDC Turmoil and Vaccine Policy Upheaval

• Immediate context: Dr. Susan Menares was recently fired as CDC Director by President Trump after pressure from RFK Jr., triggering the resignation of three senior CDC scientists.
• Upcoming CDC advisory meeting crucially will revisit childhood vaccine schedules, including the Hepatitis B vaccine for newborns.
• Political pressure: The hearing revealed direct efforts by RFK Jr. to push back the first Hepatitis B vaccine dose from birth to age 4—contradicting longstanding public health guidance.
  • “We have confirmation that Kennedy wants to push it back.” — Jonathan Cohn [02:57]

2. The Science and Stakes Behind Vaccine Schedules

• Medical consequences: Hepatitis B is highly transmissible shortly after birth, and infants not vaccinated immediately are at high risk for chronic, life-threatening complications.
  • “We've mostly wiped that out by giving that early dose. And now we have confirmation that Kennedy wants to push it back.” — Jonathan Cohn [02:57]
• Dr. Deborah Howery, a career CDC scientist who resigned, stated she received this agenda directly from Kennedy’s office.
  • “She said she heard directly from Kennedy and his office that they wanted to push back the recommendation and push it all the way back to four years.” — Jonathan Cohn [01:45]

3. Testimony of Political Meddling and Sidelining Scientists

• Dr. Susan Menares testified:

  • She was told by RFK Jr. in a meeting that “the childhood vaccine schedule would be changing starting in September and I needed to be on board with it.” [03:38]
  • She was instructed to bypass career scientists and work exclusively with political staff.
  • During the Texas measles outbreak, she was never consulted, underlining the exclusion of experts.
    • “I never briefed the secretary, as did the center director who oversaw measles. Never briefed the secretary.” — (Possibly Dr. Howery) [06:13]

• Spreading misinformation:

  • RFK Jr. allegedly promoted unproven, potentially dangerous therapies (e.g., vitamins, budesonide) over evidence-based care.
    • “He said things like vaccines had fetal parts. And I had to send a note to our leadership team to correct that misinformation.” — (Possibly Dr. Howery) [06:13]
    • “Sometimes the kids got worse, sometimes they got vitamin… poisoning from certain, you know, supplements they took. So this is really hazardous.” — Jonathan Cohn [07:58]

• Atmosphere of hostility:

  • RFK Jr. allegedly described CDC personnel as “the most corrupt federal agency in the world…CDC employees were killing children and they don't care… CDC employees were bought by the pharmaceutical industry.” — Dr. Susan Menares [09:20]
    • Menares forcefully rejected these characterizations: “Those statements are not true.” [10:22]

4. The Political Theater: Accusations of Partisanship

• Republican senators’ tack:**

  • Instead of focusing on scientific testimony, several Republican senators, notably Ashley Moody and Mark Wayne Mullen, pressed Menares about her attorneys (Abby Lowell and Mark Zaid—well-known D.C. figures) in an effort to cast her as part of an anti-Trump cabal.
    • “Why don't you want to give their names?...Are you afraid that it's going to come unraveled that you have this whole network of people that's trying to embarrass the president or go after the president?” — Ashley Moody [14:17]

• Democratic defense:

  • Senator Tim Kaine issued a rare apology, acknowledging misjudgment of Menares’ backbone, underscoring how nonpartisan her background had been.
  • Sam Baker pointedly notes that all Republicans (even key skeptics like Rand Paul) voted to confirm Menares earlier.

• Jonathan Cohn’s insight:

  • This line of questioning was a deliberate pivot to avoid discussing vaccine science or policy, opting instead for character attacks.
    • “They could have questioned her on science…That's not what they did. They're just trying to undermine her credibility as a partisan actor, which isn't going to work for someone they were praising six weeks ago.” — Jonathan Cohn [15:02]

5. The Mysterious “Secret Recording”

• Mark Wayne Mullen’s claim:

  • He suggested there exists a secret audio recording of RFK Jr. confronting Menares about her trustworthiness, implying she risked perjuring herself.
    • “It was a recorded meeting. So you can testify one way or you can prove that you're lying or give him be honest with this committee. And I'm giving you the opportunity to be honest here because you've been really Walking around the edges and not being truthful.” — Mark Wayne Mullen (paraphrased by Jonathan Cohn) [18:20]
  • Menares reiterated her actual words: “I told him if he could not trust me, he could fire me.” [18:00]

• Skepticism and Commentary:

  • No evidence for the existence of a recording has emerged; even Menares’ attorney, Mark Zaid, replied with a facepalm emoji when asked about it.

  • Senate Chairman Bill Cassidy demanded that if such a recording exists and was invoked in official business, it must be made available; if not, Mullen should retract the line of questioning [19:12].

  • “To me, it is a sideshow…I care what's happening to our vaccines and whether we're disregarding scientists.” — Sam Baker [19:54]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Public Health Risk

  • “We've mostly wiped that out by giving that early [HepB] dose. And now we have confirmation that Kennedy wants to push it back.” — Jonathan Cohn [02:57]

• On Political Interference

  • “The childhood vaccine schedule would be changing starting in September and I needed to be on board with it.” — Dr. Susan Menares, quoting RFK Jr. [03:38]

• On Sidelining Scientists

  • “I never briefed the secretary, as did the center director who oversaw measles. Never briefed the secretary…We were also asked to include things like budesonide…And I couldn't allow that as there wasn't evidence for that and would result in harm.” — Possibly Dr. Howery [06:13]

• On Hostility Toward CDC Staff

  • “He called… CDC the most corrupt federal agency in the world, emphasized that CDC employees were horrible people…He said that CDC employees were killing children and they don't care.” — Dr. Susan Menares [09:20]

• On Distraction and Sideshow

  • “To me, it is a sideshow. I don't really give a shit if she told RFK Jr. she's untrustworthy or not. I care what's happening to our vaccines and whether we're disregarding scientists and the fact that the CDC is now gutted.” — Sam Baker [19:54]

• On Undermining Public Servants

  • “To go after these people, not just say they're wrong, but to question their motives, to say they are killing children and don't care. I mean, that is… it's not the legal definition of slander, but it certainly is the moral definition of slander.” — Jonathan Cohn [11:03]

Key Timestamps

• 00:00 — Introduction, context of Senate hearing and CDC resignations
• 01:02 — Jonathan Cohn explains Hepatitis B vaccine issue and Kennedy’s proposed changes
• 03:33 — Clip: Dr. Menares describes being told to accept vaccine schedule changes
• 05:55 — Testimony on being excluded from outbreak response/briefings
• 09:20 — Dr. Menares details RFK Jr.’s attacks on CDC personnel
• 13:21 — Republican questioning about Menares’ legal representation
• 18:00 — Menares’ rebuttal to claims she called herself untrustworthy
• 18:20 — Accusations of a “secret recording”; threat of perjury
• 19:12 — Chairman Cassidy demands any recording be turned over
• 19:54 — Hosts frame “recording” as sideshow vs. real public health risks
• 22:25 — Wrap-up and recommendation to read The Breakdown newsletter

Episode Tone

The conversation is urgent, skeptical, and at times wryly exasperated. The hosts are meticulous in separating political theater from dire public health risks, repeatedly stressing the absurdity of partisan smears and conspiracy-mongering when the core issue is the undermining of scientific expertise in favor of political agendas.

Summary

This episode skillfully distills a dramatic hearing where evidence mounts of extraordinary political influence over the CDC, potential reversals of decades-proven vaccine policies, and the endangerment of public health. While the political theatrics (particularly the “secret recording” claim) consume some airtime, the hosts insistently return focus to the overshadowed, dangerous reality: the sidelining of scientists, the decimation of the agency’s expertise, and the imminent threat to hard-won vaccine protections. Essential listening for anyone seeking to cut through the noise of scandal to the real stakes for public health.