Sam Baker (2:57)

Right.

Jonathan Cohn (2:57)

And we've mostly wiped that out by giving that early dose. And now we have confirmation that Kennedy wants to push it back.

Sam Baker (3:05)

Right. And that was the focus of a lot of the hearing what was going to happen with the Hep B vaccine. And as you mentioned, Dr. Howie, who was the chief medical officer and the deputy director of program for programming science at the cdc, she, she was one of the three that resigned. Let's play this quick clip because there's that and then there was the, the vaccine schedule for children, which Dr. Susan Ara says her quote was RFK, told her, quote, the childhood vaccine schedule would be changing starting in September. Let's play that clip.

Bill Cassidy (3:33)

Ever communicate he's going to change the childhood vaccination schedule?

Dr. Susan Menares (3:38)

In, in not until that very day. In that morning meeting, he said that the childhood vaccine schedule would be changing starting in September and I needed to be on board with it.

Bill Cassidy (3:48)

Did he ever suggest that the president was, that he was speaking for the.

Dr. Susan Menares (3:52)

President in that morning meeting. He did say that he had spoken to the president. He spoke to the president every day about changing the childhood vaccine schedule.

Sam Baker (4:00)

There's a lot going on, right? There's the autism study that RFK is supposedly going to unveil this month. There's the ACIP meeting that's coming and then now this. What could it be in store with the childhood vaccine schedule, Jonathan?

Jonathan Cohn (4:12)

I mean, they could change all kinds of things. They could change the measles recommendation. They could say it's linked to autism, which it's not. I mean, this has been studied extensively. But you know, Kennedy and his supporters insist that there's a link there. We could see changes in the pertussis vaccine for whooping cough. Pretty much most of the major vaccines now that children are given at one point or another have come in for criticism from RFK Jr. From his allies. And the fact that he's sort of presenting it this way too. He's like, we're going to change this. You better be ready. I mean, this was the whole pretext or what seems to have prompted the final break and how she gets fired is he comes to her and says, are, are you going to approve. You know, according to her, this is her version. Are you going to approve these recommendations from the new committee that I've installed, which he's packed with his allies. And she's like, I can't pre approve them. I have to look at the evidence. And that leads to her in pushing her out and.

Sam Baker (5:08)

Yeah, well, that's. That's sort of the. The overarching theme of this hearing with Ari and Manara's, which is basically, they concluded they had been completely sidelined for political people. And Monar was, according to her, was told, you know, you have to just sign off on these recommendations. I think at one point she's told, don't even talk to the career scientists. Talk to the deal directly with the political people. And then there was. You mentioned measles. Harry had this kind of interesting moment where they're talking about the measles outbreak in. In Texas that killed a couple kids. You know, she just reveals that, you know, even though this falls under her jurisdiction, that she has the scientific expertise within the agency to handle these types of things, that she never once was asked to brief Kennedy on the matter. Let's take a listen to that.

Jonathan Cohn (5:55)

Did HHS response to the measles outbreak.

Ashley Moody (6:01)

Earlier this year differ from its response.

Jonathan Cohn (6:05)

To other infectious disease outbreaks in your previous interactions with the department?

Unknown Senator (possibly Mark Wayne Mullen) (6:13)

Yes, in several ways. First, I never briefed the secretary, as did the center director who oversaw measles. Never briefed the secretary. And an outbreak response, usually you'd be briefing leadership. The second thing is he said things like vaccines had fetal parts. And I had to send a note to our leadership team to correct that misinformation. We were also asked to include things like budesonide and chlorothromycin and our toolkits for physicians. And I couldn't allow that as there wasn't evidence for that and would result in harm.

Sam Baker (6:44)

There you have it. It's just basically a complete sidelining of the scientific personnel here in favor of the political personnel, which precipitated this decision by the actual scientists to say, you know what? We can't do this anymore. Or at least we can't put our names on this, knowing that it could be deeply harmful to the American public. Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Cohn (7:05)

I mean, look, you. You know, this is another one of those where, like, there's been some reporting that, you know, during the Texas measles outbreak there weren't the usual briefings going on. But to hear it from her, from how great to say I was never brought in is really quite powerful. Just a remarkable statement. I mean you have this outbreak going on, you have the leading experts on this at CDC and they're not being consulted. And, and, and don't let's not forget the other stuff she said which was, you know, we were, they, she said like they were busy sort of basically putting out fires because Kennedy's going out there spreading misinformation about the vaccine, asking them to push unproven or dangerous therapies. And by the way, that like when Kennedy was pushing his alternative therapies, you know, taking vitamin, you know, vitamins or whatever, that had real consequences because you had people, parents who thought this was the right thing to do, kept their kids home and gave them, you know, these treatments that didn't necessarily make, was.

Sam Baker (7:55)

It invective or whatever the hell it's called. I don't know.

Jonathan Cohn (7:58)

There was a whole bunch of stuff. And sometimes the kids got worse, sometimes they got vitamin, you know, poisoning from certain, you know, supplements they took. So this is really hazardous. And you know, and, but you know, the pattern here and everything that's kept coming up today over and over again is that they're assigned to the cdc. You can think they make good, you know, whatever you think about the agency as a whole and decisions as a whole, these are the people who actually know what they're talking about being sidelined for Kennedy's political people. And again, maybe you think the CDC people know what they're talking, maybe you don't, maybe you're not happy with the day in Covid, but just do you really trust them less than RFK's hand picked?

Sam Baker (8:40)

You know, I think you're almost underselling it honestly, because it's not that he just said, hey, trust the political people more. According to Monaro, he had a real hatred for the cdc. I mean the, the way she described it, again, this is one sided. I understand, but I will, and I'm going to stress this repeatedly, this is Donald Trump's choice to head the CDC, who RFK Jr. Praised when she was nominated, who's confirmed on a party line vote with all Republicans voting for her. So it's not like, you know, suddenly, and this was on July 29th of this year. So it's not like, you know, this is some holdover from the Biden era. Let's play the clip about how rfk, according to her, described people at the cdc.

Dr. Susan Menares (9:20)

He made another set of assertions associated with CDC that were particularly pointed and particularly hurtful and disparaging. He called, in that context CDC the most corrupt federal agency in the world, emphasized that CD employees were horrible people. He had said that. Yeah, I'm sorry. He said that CDC employees were killing children and they don't care. He said that CDC employees were bought by the pharmaceutical industry. He said CDC forced people to wear masks and social distance like a dictatorship. And the one I think that hurt me the most was a particularly vivid phrase. He said, during the COVID outbreak, CDC told hospitals to turn away sick COVID patients until they had blue lips before allowing them to get treatment. And it is fair to say, in.

Jonathan Cohn (10:18)

Your view, that those statements are not true?

Dr. Susan Menares (10:22)

Those statements are not true.

Jonathan Cohn (10:24)

Thank you.

Sam Baker (10:24)

All right. So horrible people who are, quote, killing children and don't care. That's. That's not like I need to sideline these people. It's. That's. I detest these people. I think they are bad people. And it really. It makes it incompatible for him to run that agency, frankly, it does.

Jonathan Cohn (10:42)

And look, like I said, this is her recollection. So maybe, you know, whatever. On the other hand, we've heard what he said publicly. We hear what's said all the time publicly on social media by people in his orbit. That does not sound out of character. We all saw him.

Sam Baker (10:57)

We saw what he said before he became HHS secretary. It's like verbatim what he was saying about the cdc.

Jonathan Cohn (11:03)

It was. And it's remarkable. And just. Can. Can we pause for a second and talk about CDC scientists again? I'm not here to tell you they made all the right decisions or make all the right or they're always right. No one is. But, you know, CDC scientists have enormous skills. They could make gobs of money in the private sector. People like this, they spend 10, 20, 30 years working at CDC making less money than they could in the private sector because they really care about public health. They really care about public servants. And to go after these people, not just say they're wrong, but to question their motives, to say they are killing children and don't care. I mean, that is. It's not the legal definition of slander, but it certainly is the moral definition of slander.

Sam Baker (11:42)

Yeah, no, 100%. Now, look, this was. I guess it's important to step back about the politics at this point because Bill Cassie is chairing the committee. He's a sympathetic ear. Here to Menares, and he clearly comes across that way during the hearings. Obviously, all the Democrats, you know, invested in figuring out what happened between her and RFK Jr and then you had Tim K Even saying, I regret, like I regret voting against you and saying, I didn't think you had the backbone. So there's that. On the Republican side of the aisle, though, there was, I don't know if it was a divide so much as sort of an interesting form of pushback. There was the anti vaxxers themselves or the vax skeptics themselves, I should say Rand Paul and Roger Marshall, both, both former doctors or current doctors, which is shocking. So they, they push back a little bit on, on this and we can get into the Rand stuff a little bit, although I'm not sure it's worth it. And then there's this other line of argument that is, that came out of nowhere for me, but it clear it was clearly the line that the Republicans were going for, which is they wanted to portray her as a partisan actor, as someone who was being used almost by anti Trump forces to make life miserable for the president. And they kept on repeating stuff like who are your lawyers? Her lawyers are Abby Lowell and Mark Zayd, who are both prominent fixtures in the D.C. scene, happen to represent a number of people who are pushing back against Trump. I would say Abby Lowell, I believe, represented the Trump kids at one point. But putting that aside, and then they kept asking, well, doesn't the president have the right to fire you? Isn't this his call? And she said, yes, of course. I'm going to get to the most interesting exchange with Mark Wayne Mullen in a little bit. But let's play Ashley Moody first.

Ashley Moody (13:21)

What attorneys are here with you at this hearing, assisting with your testimony and whispering in your ear. Please state their names for the record.

Dr. Susan Menares (13:32)

My two attorneys that are in the room would be happy to follow up with you after the discussion.

Ashley Moody (13:37)

So, Mr. Chairman, I would like the record to reflect that you have called a hearing of two people who have hired anti Trump lawyers. When did you hire them?

Dr. Susan Menares (13:50)

I sought their counsel.

Unknown Senator (possibly Mark Wayne Mullen) (13:57)

I believe on.

Dr. Susan Menares (13:58)

The day around, on or before the.

Ashley Moody (14:01)

Day I was fired and is now refusing now that they're in the courtroom and helping with testimony and passing notes on what to say, refusing to give their names to those of us that may not know their names. I mean, is there a reason you don't want to give their names?

Dr. Susan Menares (14:17)

Are you. No.

Ashley Moody (14:21)

Afraid that it's going to come unraveled that you have this whole network of people that's trying to embarrass the president or go after the president. And now you are joining this group. Why don't you want to give their names?

Dr. Susan Menares (14:34)

Their names have been publicly associated with them. They issued public remarks early on after.

Ashley Moody (14:40)

Well, let me ask your colleague. I've noticed they've also been giving you notes, too, and whispering to you. Will you state their names?

Unknown Senator (possibly Mark Wayne Mullen) (14:47)

So their names are Abby Lowell and Mark Zaid.

Ashley Moody (14:50)

That wasn't too hard. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Sam Baker (14:53)

All right, so there you have it. Moody's just sort of like, why don't you name your lawyers? And she just says, they're there, they're right there. You know that it's public record. What did you make of this line of attack?

Jonathan Cohn (15:02)

Yeah. So it took me a minute. You were. You were quicker to pick up on it than I was. I was like, what are they even doing here? Why are we talking about who their lawyers are? Whatever. But you're right. I mean, this was. They want to paint her as a partisan actor. This was all some conspiracy, you know, to make Trump look bad. And the easiest way to rebut that is what you just said before is. This doesn't make sense. Two months ago, she was their choice to run the agency. They couldn't say enough good things about her. And she's a career civil servant. No sign that she's got any hidden political agenda. In fact, as Tim Kaine apologized at this meeting, Democrats were suspicious of her. There's just no evidence at all that she's a partisan actor. But you can see that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to disparage her. And I think it's telling that, you know, given their five minutes, they could have gone after Sign. They could have questioned her on science. I mean, one of them did bring up Covid stuff, which, you know, again, I think that's a vulnerability. And you want to talk about CDC errors, that's the place to go. Yeah, that's not what they did. They're just trying to undermine her credibility as a partisan actor, which isn't going to work for someone they were praising six weeks ago.

Sam Baker (16:01)

Well, yeah. And Moody, I should know. Ashly, she voted for Minor's confirmation. So it's like they all did, right?

Jonathan Cohn (16:08)

All the Republicans.

Sam Baker (16:08)

Yeah, all of them did. Grandpa did.

Jonathan Cohn (16:11)

Grandpa doesn't vote for anything, and he voted for that.

Sam Baker (16:13)

A couple other notes that I just picked up on, which I think buttress this point. One was at least two senators on the Republican side. They're all given five minutes to do the questioning. At least two of them couldn't even fill out the five minutes. Why is that important? Well, to me it means that they were very laser focused on just trying to question not her credentials, but her partisan leanings. And once they ran out of those types of questions, they didn't have any use for her. Never mind that she had like blown the whistle on potentially horrific changes to our childhood vaccine schedule or RFK Jr not being up to the task of running this agency or just cast out the agency stuff that you would conceivably want to get to the bottom of if you're on this committee with Oversight. They were just done once they had that question. And then came this really bizarre exchange with Mark Gwynne Mullen, another senator on the committee, Republican, where he heavily implied that there was a recording of a confrontation between Menares and RFK Jr. Now, need to back up a second here because when RFK Jr was in front of the Senate last week, the Senate Finance Committee, he said that one of the reasons he fired Monarch is that he asked, are you trustworthy? And according to RFK Jr. She responded, I am not trustworthy. Which Jonathan has said that to me. And I was baffled when he told me that he was not trustworthy. But no one else would admit for freely that you are not trustworthy. Doesn't make any sense. Jonathan's not even laughing, but it was a joke. Secondly is, it took me a second to pick up.

Jonathan Cohn (17:40)

I was like, Jon, I was, I'm running through my head. I'm like, was there a Jonathan on this?

Sam Baker (17:44)

That's you, buddy.

Jonathan Cohn (17:44)

Committee.

Sam Baker (17:45)

Oh, okay. So that we will not edit that out. Secondly is Monaras was asked about this a couple times prior to Mark Wayne Mullen. And she said, no, no, no, I, I never said I was not trustworthy. They said, if you cannot trust me, if you do not trust me, then you should fire me.

Dr. Susan Menares (18:00)

And I told him if he could not trust me, he could fire me.

Sam Baker (18:04)

So they this all back and forth. Then Marwin Mullen gets up there and he starts questioning her. And he implies very heavily that there's an actual audio recording of this confrontation and that she should be very careful because she's under oath about how she describes it and, and that she knows that it will come out.

Jonathan Cohn (18:20)

It was a recorded meeting. So you can testify one way or you can prove that you're lying or give him be honest with this committee. And I'm giving you the opportunity to be honest here because you've been really Walking around the edges and not being truthful.

Sam Baker (18:42)

No one that I'm talking to in this universe at the cdc, in the health community, has any idea what he's talking about. In fact, I texted Mark Zade after the fact, and I was like, what is he talking about? Do you have any idea? And Mark Z sent me an emoticon, and it's this one, so there's that. We'll find out if there's a recording. I'm not, you know, it's not like Mark Wayne Mullen can just hint at it and then not say anything about it. And, in fact, Bill Cassidy comes back to the hearing and says this.

Bill Cassidy (19:12)

I understand Senator Mullen implied there's a recording of the meeting or meetings between Dr. Manarez and Secretary Kennedy. I will note that if materials have been provided to Senator Mullen and invoked in official committee business, their committee records and all other senators on the committee have the right to see those records. This is allegiance to President Trump's values, and so I'd ask that that recording be released. I'll also note that we put in a request for any documents or communications that would bring transparency to the situation. We have not yet received those documents. If a recording does not exist, I asked Senator Mullen to retract his line of questions.

Sam Baker (19:54)

All right, so more drama here. Again, I think we're going to find out if there's a recording. For obvious reasons. It's just. I don't know, I guess it symbolizes just how everything is done through a political lens. And that's just it. We're doomed to this, because to me, it's like, I don't really give a shit if she told RFK Jr. She's untrustworthy or not. I care what's happening to our vaccines and whether we're disregarding scientists and the fact that the CDC is now gutted. I mean, think. I think Hari said there's not. Dr. Hari said there's not even a scientist at her level left anymore. So maybe I'm crazy to think that this is a sideshow, but to me, it is a sideshow.

Jonathan Cohn (20:31)

Honestly, we're saying if that's being crazy, I don't want to be sane. Isn't there like a country song or something like that? Yeah, I mean, that was my reaction to me. Look, you know my entire history as a reporter, Sam, yours as, you know, two people remember a conversation, it's never exactly what one remembers the other. I'm sure there's somewhere in between. I will say, listening to her version and his version, her, sounds way more credible to me.

Sam Baker (20:55)

Who says, hey, yeah, I'm trustworthy. Actually, I have a theory of how it goes. This is. Yeah, okay, this is my theory. RFK Jr. At one point said, you're not trustworthy. And Menars replies, oh, I'm not trustworthy. And then RFK Jr says, See, you admitted it. You're not trusting. You just said it. And then that's that. And so suddenly, she's screwed. Yeah, it's so dumb.

Jonathan Cohn (21:18)

I mean, look, the level we're at, that doesn't sound implausible to me. But like you said, at the end of the day, whether she said or he said, that is so far down the list of things we should be caring about. When we're talking about, you know, scaling back these vaccines that have saved, you know, tens, hundreds, thousands, millions of lives over the years, we're talking about gutting the agencies that. That protect us. You know, they didn't get a lot of attention, but it came up a few times. You know, we depend on CDC for, you know, to protect not just against pandemics, but bioterror attacks. And the agency has been decimated. The people who know about this stuff are gone. Are we ready? And that's what's important here. And like you said, Republicans could have engaged on that. Instead, they're engaging in this conspiracy theory about something that doesn't really, at the end of the day, matter. I think just to distract and I guess maybe either avoid political damage or, you know, as usual, is often the case in these hearings, you know, play for the audience of one. Although I get that he was more focused on the other hearing going on today.

Sam Baker (22:25)

Yeah, that would be the Cash Patel one. All right, Jonathan, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. And I do really recommend anyone who's watching this read Jonathan's the Breakdown newsletter and subscribe to that today's edition, which, as Jonathan mentioned, does look at the hepatitis C vaccine and what could happen if it is to go or even be delayed to the age of four. It's really deeply important stuff. I mean, it cuts through the noise in ways that I don't think many people are doing. So thank you for that as well, Jonathan. With that, I'll see you later. Thanks, everyone. Talk to you soon.