← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, guys, it's Lauren Egan here at the Bulwark. I have what I think is kind of a crazy and frankly, pretty alarming story for y'all today. It takes place in North Carolina. As you know, there was an election about five months ago at this point, but something really wild has happened there. The state Supreme Court race has not yet been sold certified, and that's not because we don't know who actually won the race. The Democratic incumbent, Allison Riggs, she won by a tiny margin, like 700 votes. There's been a recount, but the race has not actually been certified because her Republican challenger, a man named Jefferson Griffin, who is a judge on the State Court of Appeals, a Republican, he's basically done all these sort of legal challenges. He's trying to get about 60,000 votes thrown out of the race. So, long story short, the election there hasn't been certified, which is just pretty crazy given that it's five months later. Anyways, we have Justice Riggs with us today, which I'm super grateful for, you joining us and talking us through what's happening in North Carolina, and I think, most importantly, putting this into perspective of why this matters, why people who don't just live in North Carolina should maybe be paying attention to this and potentially slightly alarmed about what's going on. I just gave a super quick summary, but if you could walk us through sort of in your own words, what's been going on over the past five months.
- [01:43]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much, Lauren, for having me. And I'll give you all a quick update on what's happening. And there are at least two major reasons why folks across the country ought to be terrified about what's happening down here. So I won my election in November by 734 votes out of 5.5 million votes cast. The State Board of Elections confirmed that win by two separate independent recounts. I'm the incumbent, so I'm still on the bench right now as we fight this. But my opponent, instead of conceding, as you're supposed to do when you lose an election in, instead is attacking about 68,000 votes, calling them unlawful when they are not. And I'll explain about some of these voters. And that's left me stuck in litigation. I am the only uncertified race from the 2024 election in the entire country, and I have accrued already about $1.1 million in legal fees defending my win. And this is part of the problem. But would love to tell you more about who some of these voters are.
- [02:56]
A
Yeah, okay, so walk us through. My understanding is that he's targeting this, this 60,000 something group of voters. And my understanding is that they kind of fall into different buckets. So can you explain to us who those people are?
- [03:11]
B
Yep. So the biggest bucket is a bucket that both of my parents are in. So yes, you heard me right. My, my opponent is trying to disenfranchise my own parents. My dad is a 30 year Navy veteran, retired now, but they moved to North Carolina to be near their kids, their grandkids, their granddaughs. And my dad just wants to do puzzles and read and putter around in his backyard. And he's scared that his vote won't count. And it's all about whether the voter file, the electronic database, is missing some data. My dad and my mom presented their military ID when they went to register and went to vote. They're, they're retirees, they have retired military IDs. They don't have driver's license numbers on them because they're not driver's licenses. Military IDs don't have Social Security security numbers on them. This is attacking folks who did nothing wrong and trying to disenfranchise them. That's the biggest bucket. The next bucket are people who vote using a law called the Uniform and Overseas Citizens Voting Act. So these are deployed military members. So people who live in North Carolina have always lived in North Carolina, but because of their military service, or maybe serving in Texas or, or Florida or overseas, stationed in Italy at war on a submarine, these people do not have to, from a submarine, produce a photo ID to vote because there's not a mechanism for it. It doesn't happen anywhere. Military voters go through extra hurdles to request their ballots. And my opponent is seeking to have the ballots of more than 5,500 North Carolina military members and their families tossed out. But I'll tell you what's even more troubling about that, is he's not seeking to have all 32,000 military votes thrown out, just the ones from the four. Four of the most Democratic counties out of 100 counties.
- [05:24]
A
So it feels like cynical to you. Yeah.
- [05:26]
B
You know, if it's, if it's supposed to be about election integrity, I see no consistency or justification for that. But the people who serve our country, the people who raise their hand and say, I will put my life on the line, I will miss time with my family. Like when my dad was deployed, he missed incredible milestones in our lives. And the people who are doing that for this country should not be the first ones targeted to lose their rights. If the people in power don't like an election outcome. These are some of the 68,000 voters. They are disproportionately young people, people of color, women. They are heavily military. North Carolina has one of the biggest military populations in the country. I'm a constitutional officer. I believe that I put my hand on a Bible and swore an oath to God to protect the Constitution. And that includes the constitutional right to vote, even of people who didn't vote for me. I am the only one fighting for some of these Republican votes to count. And it's important that folks know that this is a fight that's not going to end anytime soon. We've got six to 12 more months. My case is getting heard in the Court of Appeals, in the State Court of Appeals tomorrow. Then we have to go to the North Carolina Supreme Court. Then we may go to federal trial court, the fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. The supreme could make it all the way up to the United States Supreme Court. And in the meantime, there's real damage being done.
- [07:05]
A
I want to get to that, but first I have to know, like, what has your parents response been to this? Like, that's kind of crazy that it's, you know, they're part of these, these voters that are maybe not going to be counted.
- [07:17]
B
I went to their house the night they got a postcard. My mom did, my dad didn't. So these voters actually weren't even putting on notice of it. But my mom got a postcard from the North Carolina Republican Party that said your ballot might be the subject of an election protest. She doesn't know what that means. Scan this QR code. My mom also not really great at QR codes. And in fact, my dad told her, don't scan that. You'll get a virus on your phone. So this is the app. This is really a very normal reaction. I think my parents fit the bill for a lot of the people dealing with this. But you scan the QR code, you go to these pages on your phone that are impossible to read. I came over for dinner that night with my husband and had to explain to my mom what this was. That's how I learned that my parents were on the list and, and they now understand. But they have a daughter who spent 14 years as a civil rights attorney and argued voting rights cases in the United States Supreme Court. They have a daughter who's a sitting North Carolina Supreme Court justice. Most North Carolinians aren't that lucky. And folks are scared. They're Frustrated and at core it's just deeply offensive that we conduct an election, the voters decide, and then people in power, if they don't like the outcome, try and change the rules of the game after the game is over so that they can rig who won.
- [08:48]
A
So what was on the QR code? Was that like a way for them to what, get in contact with, with the Republican challenger or what was it?
- [08:58]
B
No, for them to be able to find the lists of the, you know, 60, some thousand, 68,000 people he challenged and they were like separated out by county. It was absolutely not navigable for anyone on a smartphone, like no matter what. But you know, this is, this is frustrating. I think my parents story is, helps people understand the absurdity of it. But this presents a really existential threat to our democracy and the independence of our courts. So go ahead.
- [09:35]
A
Yeah, I want to, I mean, I want to talk about that a little bit because it seems like, like you said, there's, there's a long. This could be months. But how worried do you are you that this could be like a replicable playbook that Republicans in other states, you know, if they see that he's successful, Republicans in other states could try to pull some of the same shenanigans.
- [10:03]
B
I'm 100% sure it will be. Look, this has been tried in 2020. It didn't work. This has been tried in 2022. It didn't work. This cycle, I think they're like, they're looking at a state Supreme Court race and saying, oh, maybe people won't, won't fight as hard, won't pay attention there and we can hone our skills in this.
- [10:27]
A
So you're like the testing ground for that.
- [10:29]
B
Yeah, I think that, I think if they get this right here, we will see it everywhere. It's like dropping a match in a really dry force. But they picked the wrong person to fight this fight with. Because I know that I'm not just fighting for my seat. I'm fighting for the independence of our courts, for the will of North Carolina voters to be what carries the day. Voters should decide elections, not politicians. And that this is about the voters, not me. This is about defending our military voters the way they defend us. And I am up for that fight. I am no stranger to these kinds of fights. And I know too that we are in a perilous moment when it comes to an independent judiciary. So right now there's Wisconsin Supreme Court elections going on. Elon Musk is pouring millions of dollars into that race. We know that judges are Being threatened with impeachment if someone in charge, someone in power, doesn't like who they a decision they made. Our democracy does not work without three independent branches of government. And an independent judiciary is one that cannot be bullied, that will not be bullied. And it is my job now, not just as a constitutional officer here in North Carolina, not just as a licensed practitioner of the law, but as someone who cares deeply about this country, its institutions, and our democracy. I have to stand strong to make sure that these attacks on an independent judiciary gain no traction. And I'm ready to do it.
- [12:13]
A
Well, I'm curious what the reaction has been like in the state. Like, has the Republican Party there kind of rallied around this at all? What are you hearing from folks, actually in the state?
- [12:26]
B
Impacted voters are outraged. The Republican Party puts out tweets that say this is about election integrity with no follow up of, well, if you think our military votes should be not counted, why are you not trying to toss them in every 100, every one of our 100 counties? And obviously they shouldn't be tossed in any county. But, you know, there's a really outrageous level of hypocrisy in this. There are Republicans speaking out, though. Amongst the list of people challenged are Republican county commission members, local elected officials, Republican leaders. This week, over 225 former judges and leading governmental officials and lawyers sent a letter to my opponent telling him to stop, including the general counsel for former Republican Governor Pat McCrory and a former counsel for the North Carolina GOP. So I know that there are people who understand the threat that this poses to the peaceful transition of power, the recognition of the results of an election, recognizing and acknowledging the decision of voters, and there is growing bipartisan agreement meant on this. But it is, you know, it's been nearly, as you mentioned, nearly five months. It's just, it's been too long already. And unfortunately, I don't know that it's going to end soon. So my job is to make sure that when people start to feel discouraged, feel powerless in the face of what's happening nationally and internationally, I, I want people to know how hard North Carolinians of all political stripes are fighting for our democracy and for an independent judiciary. This is the win that I think we need nationally and we are the fighters that I think folks need to see. We need to see that there is no compromise on the fundamental right to vote. There is no compromise on. We acknowledge and accept election results. And this is a fight that does, does not. We shouldn't have to have it but it doesn't intimidate me one bit. And I will not give an inch on the fundamental rights of the people that I serve.
- [15:06]
A
Do you worry that aside from the obvious concerns about democracy, do you worry that this is going to have a chilling effect on other people who might be interested in running? Like you mentioned, this is. This, this is going to end up costing you a ton of money. And I imagine you're having to spend a lot of time fundraising right now. That could be like, an obvious hurdle to some people who are interested in running, but maybe are like, I'm not really trying to get hooked up with a $2 million lawsuit or whatever. This ends up costing you.
- [15:39]
B
Yeah, I believe in the need for a diverse judiciary. I'm the youngest woman to ever serve on the North Carolina Supreme Court, and I am the only woman currently serving who's of childbearing age on any of our appellate courts in this state. I believe that directly affected people should be at the table when decisions are being made, whether it's about redistricting maps or whether women get to control their own bodies. And so I want to see more public defenders, more civil rights attorneys. I want to see people from underrepresented communities. But we know, we know that women have a harder time raising money. We know that black and Latinx and so many underrepresented communities, when they run, they get 25 cents on the dollar fundraising. So, yes, I think it is. What, what I'm also doing as, as we all do juggle a lot of balls, is working to make sure that we're also building the infrastructure. So with the North Carolina Democratic Party and with groups that focus on recruiting and supporting diverse candidates to run for the bench, that we're creating an infrastructure to support them? Because you can't ask someone to do something hard like run for statewide election as a judge and not have their back when they do it. So I am not just playing to keep my seat and to defend these voters. Now we have a path to taking back our North Carolina supreme court in the 2028 election before the next round of regular redistricting and really set a model nationally for how we do this. How do we fight for and secure more diverse representative state judiciaries so that folks rightfully trust that when they walk into a courtroom, they will feel welcome, they will feel seen, and they. They won't. They'll know that they're going to get a fair shake.
- [17:49]
A
To that point, do you think that the national Democratic Party, more national leaders, could be doing a Bit more to talk about your situation because it does feel like, you know, it's. We've got a long road ahead. But it does feel like if the ruling is not in your favor, it's just such a slippery slope. I'm kind of, I've been kind of, you know, I know it's. State supreme court races aren't always the most sexy races to talk about, but it is one of those things where it's like, I don't know, guys. Like this is a pretty big deal when we talk about preserving democracy and the need. Need to protect democracy.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt nationally whether it's with the national infrastructure or at every state level, we have to be focusing more on our state court. I think I have some responsibility in making state judicial races more accessible and interesting. We need great candidates who can break things down and get people excited to have someone on the bench who wants to be accountable to the people who will fearlessly defend their constitutional rights. But it involves. We need folks like y'all talking about our judicial races. We need folks who have resources and platforms on a national level to say, look what's happening in Wisconsin. Look who's trying to buy this election in Wisconsin. We need folks to, to say, look, you know, in North Carolina when we, we have the chance to take back our court in the 2028 elections, but it's going to be really expensive because we're going to be fighting for three, three seats. We need folks to understand that where, where the federal judiciary might be not able, you know, might be not satisfying what we need from the judiciary. There are other options. You have more fulsome rights under a state constitution almost always than you do under a federal constitution. So one, we're that branch of government that doesn't get enough attention. But boy, if we don't work, if we don't aren't able to our job and call balls and strikes and say when an executive or a legislative branch member oversteps, then our whole system of government fails, it crumbles. So we got to care about our courts, state and federal. We got to fight for them in every state. And we need folks with national platforms like yours to help us.
- [20:23]
A
So let's just sum it all up. You have a hearing tomorrow. This case has kind of been batted back and forth from different courts. Can you just walk us through the hearing tomorrow? Where do you think things are going to go? Realistically? You think this is like another how many months long process?
- [20:42]
B
Yeah. So at the beginning of February, I Said this was going to be 6 to 12 months. Legal proceedings are really hard to predict how long. But, you know, we're in the. I think it's four to 10 months still to go. I think we'll make our way through the state court system. We had a fight in federal court earlier this year because we thought this issue should be decided in federal court. These are federal laws that protect military voters, that protect the ability of people like my parents to register and to vote without challenge. But what has happened is the federal court said, yeah, we'll take this up at the end if we need to, but we're going to let the state court process play out first and let the state courts answer questions of state law, and then we'll come back in and answer questions of federal law. So I think the court of appeals best guess is we continue there through the spring, the North Carolina Supreme Court, in the late spring, summer, and then I hope we don't have to. But if we have to move to federal court to seek to vindicate the rights of these voters, and it could stretch out till the end of this year, is that.
- [21:58]
A
I mean, you're obviously recused from this, but is that awkward with your colleagues? Is this just like. Is this just like a weird situation for you?
- [22:07]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's unprecedented. This is very strange. My recusal was important to me. I came out early and said, I will recuse in my case. That's not about pulling punches. It's about modeling the behavior I think we should expect from all of our judges. And allows me to talk more about the case, too. If I were sitting on a case, I couldn't talk and explain to people what it is. I spent my career as a civil rights attorney representing community groups and folks who wanted to vindicate their legal rights, but needed help understanding the law and how to navigate a legal challenge. So this is something that I was built to do, is to help people understand what is at risk here. But, yeah, I don't sit on, don't talk about, don't listen to anything about my case. And ultimately, I just continue to remind folks that it's voters, not politicians, who should be deciding who wins elections. And if we can stay focused on that, if I can really make sure that people are hearing that enough to believe it and to believe that there are folks like me out there fighting for this, that we can win the day good people can come into politics, notwithstanding the cost and the stress, there are good people who want to make a difference. And I view what I'M doing now as standing up for the rights of people who need a voice and to. And I'm fulfilling my obligation, my duty to defend all of our fundamental freedoms.
- [23:58]
A
Yeah. Well, concerning stuff. But I really appreciate you making some time today and for joining us here on the Bulwark. Come back. Keep us updated.
- [24:11]
B
Yeah. Folks want to stay in touch with me. I'm on all the different social medias. It's either Alison Riggs or Rigs for our courts. And my website is rigsforourcourts.com I would love for people to sign up to to get information because this will be rapidly moving. And it is. I think the other side's banking on us giving up, not caring and this flying below the radar. So thank you so much for.