← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
Sam Stein
Hey, guys, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor, Bulwark, and I'm joined by Lauren Egan, who is the author of our opposition newsletter. It's must read and we have one coming out this evening which you guys are going to want to get. We're here to talk about Gavin Newsom speech last night, which gets at what opposition is about this week, how Democrats are messaging, reacting to handling Trump's clampdown of the protests in LA and his threat to use the National Guard. Frankly, everywhere, that's what the memorandum says. Lauren, let's just start open ended. What did you think of the speech last night?
- [00:35]
Lauren Egan
I thought it was really interesting. I think that Democrats have really struggled to find sort of like, who's the leading voice in this moment, like, who's the face of the anti Trump opposition. And Newsom obviously, for, you know, he has his own motivations here, but he's definitely positioned himself as that last night. And, and I think the parties had a hard time sort of making the case that Trump is taking the country on this, like, scary path towards something that's anti Democratic. Right. Like, Harris tried to make that message in the campaign, Biden tried to make that message for four years and they really struggled to do it. And I thought that Newsom speech last night, he was pretty effective in making that case. He basically talked about, like, this is the start of what authoritarian, authoritarianism looks like and it's not just going to happen in la. Like it's going to happen, it can happen anywhere in the country. And he talked about how this is sort of like the beginning of what democracy unraveling can look like. And he did it in a way that I thought was like, he made the, laid out the case pretty clearly and it wasn't sort of like sensationalized. I didn't feel like, or sort of like fear mongering. He made, I thought, a pretty like, clear argument.
- [01:43]
Sam Stein
Why do you think I've struggled with this? But like, why do you think Harris and Biden had trouble making this case? Considering the fact, I mean, Biden obviously did win election, but considering the fact that January 6th happened, why would they have trouble making the case? And why would it work better for Newsom now? Maybe it's just recency, right? Like January 6th had receded.
- [02:12]
Lauren Egan
Yeah.
- [02:13]
Sam Stein
But I don't know. Is it, is it a, is it a salient issue for voters?
- [02:18]
Lauren Egan
I think that's part of it. I mean, like, if we're talking about Biden, we also have to acknowledge the fact that the messenger matters and like, he was just never going to be in a place where he could, you know, effectively deliver that message. But Newsom, I think, you know, Biden and Harris would often talk about democracy and, like, frame everything around democracy. And Newsom did use that word in his speech last night, but he's doing a better job, I think, of, like, explaining what that means. And to your point, like, when people are getting, like, snatched off the street and Trump sending in, you know, National Guard when Newsom doesn't want them there, it's a lot easier to sort of make that case, especially, like, when he's literally in office. And obviously with Biden, like, Biden was in office. So it's a bit different.
- [03:07]
Sam Stein
Right. I guess it, you know, when you move away from January 6, people can kind of come to grips with it emotionally, politically. But when you're living through it, maybe it has more salience. I. I don't know. I. I'm curious to see how it lands and, you know, obviously, and you can pick up on this. Like, for Newsom, it's kind of a. It's a. It's an interesting shift, even from a couple weeks ago when he's, you know, he's been on this podcast Kick, where he's talking to Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon and all that stuff. And, you know, I think to a degree, he was trying to play nice with Trump. It wasn't. Not quite at the Whitmer levels, but he. He certainly wasn't, you know, an, you know, outright oppositional all the time figure. But this. This is different.
- [03:47]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, just like, literally two months ago, he was. Had Steve Bannon on his podcast and Charlie Kirk on his podcast and took a lot of heat for that. And I think, you know, cynics will look at Newsom and say, like, he's opportunistic and, like, this is all, you know, he's this slippery politician who will, you know, do what he needs to. But I also think there's probably an element to that that makes him effective to deliver this message, because he's kind.
- [04:14]
Sam Stein
Of like, how so?
- [04:15]
Lauren Egan
Like, he's sort of been like, look, I'm not out here sort of like, trying to be a fear monger or, like, tell you the world is ending when, like, it's not actually ending. Like, so.
- [04:22]
Sam Stein
Oh, so you think he got credibility from talking with Kirk?
- [04:26]
Lauren Egan
I think a little. I mean, we have, like, it's literally been like, 12 hours. Not even. So, like, let's see, like, sort of what happens. But I Do think that there is, there could be some, some of that to this where he's kind of like, look, I'm not trying to, like, you know, tell you that the world is ending when it's not. Like, I've tried to sort of like, you know, reach across the aisle, so to speak, to these guys, and I'm willing to engage with them. But, like, this is fucked up. And like, let's just say it.
- [04:55]
Sam Stein
Well, let's play that clip where he talks about, like, you know, the moment we feared has arrived.
- [04:59]
Gavin Newsom
This is about all of us. This is about you. California may be first, but it clearly will not end here. Other states are next. Democracy is next. Democracy is under assault before our eyes. This moment we have feared has arrived. He's taking a wrecking ball, a wrecking ball to our founding father's historic project. Three co equal branches of independent government. There are no longer any checks and balances. Congress is nowhere to be found. Speaker Johnson has completely abdicated that responsibility. The rule of law has increasingly been given way to the rule of Don. The founding Fathers, they didn't live and die to see this kind of moment. It's time for all of us to stand up. Justice Brandeis, he said it best. In a democracy, the most important office, with all due respect, Mr. President, is not the presidency, and it's certainly not Governor. The most important office is office of citizen. At this moment, at this moment, we all need to stand up and be held to account. A higher level of accountability if you exercise your First Amendment rights. Please, please, do it peacefully. I know many of you are. Are feeling deep anxiety, stress, and fear. But I want you to know that you are the antidote to that fear and that anxiety. What Donald Trump wants most is your fealty, your silence, to be complicit in this moment. Do not give in to him.
- [06:32]
Sam Stein
So, yeah, I mean, like, the rhetoric is pretty aggressive, right? I mean, that is, that's about as alarmist as you can get. Sounds like a bulwark piece, frankly. But also, I, you know, the other thing that I kind of been noticing is, like, tactically, his team has really been highly aggressive online. I mean, I don't think Gavin Newsom is writing his tweets. Let me just put that out there. I don't think he's on the phone being like. But I do think his team is. And they're, like, going after lawmakers and Trump. They're, they're quite, you know, if, if Mike Johnson or Markway Mullen or whoever is like, saying, ah, get the murderers under control in California, they're responding with stats pointing at per capita murder rates are worse in their states. I mean, they're like the high level combat stuff is also happening in ways that I don't really recall other Democrats doing, at least at this level.
- [07:24]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, I mean, to me, that's just like he's running for president quite clearly.
- [07:28]
Sam Stein
No, you're so cynical. Oh, my God, maybe you're right.
- [07:30]
Lauren Egan
Come on, you think that, too?
- [07:33]
Sam Stein
I mean, sure, maybe, maybe I'm not going to rule it out, but I think frankly, in this moment, he's just like, I am under incredible pressure from the federal government. Like, they're not a, it's like we're in this place where it's like, the federal government is not here to help me. They're here to use me and turn me into an example for their own purposes. I mean, that's frankly, I think, am I wrong? And that's clearly what's happening here. And so he's got to figure out, you know, both, how do I get this thing under control when the federal government is trying to probably manipulate it to its own means? I mean, yes, Donald Trump says he wants to get it under control, but I think we all realize that Don Trump is totally fine if things kind of spiral because the protests work to his benefit. And two, like, you know, the White House social media feed is not like, you know, encouraging me to, like, help out or encouraging me and cheering me on. They're attacking me. So it's like, you know, we're just in a place where this is totally abnormal. I mean, it's like we're two governing entities that are supposed to be trying to manage the situation, are actually at odds in the situation. It's, I, I, I feel like that's kind of getting lost here. We're not working in concert.
- [08:43]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, I think that's right. The cynic in me is like, he's running.
- [08:47]
Sam Stein
Oh, he's running for president. This is a platform. You are so cynical. Take the girl out of Politico. But can't take.
- [08:53]
Lauren Egan
Oh, my God, please. You're one to talk. I also think, like, I don't know, the parties just sort of had this whole debate about, like, are we in an, in an existential moment or not? Do you, how do you fight Trump? Do you fight Trump? How much do you fight Trump or do you try and work with him? And I think just to like what you're saying. I think Newsom's kind of like, well, we have our answer. There's no, working with him. Like, we've, like, this is at least.
- [09:21]
Sam Stein
On this issue, right?
- [09:22]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I think that that, that part's. It's sort of like forcing that debate again. And I think you talk like we talk to people on Capitol Hill, and they'll all say, like, this moment for the party is not really like left versus right. It's fight, fight or not fight. How do you deal with Trump? Is this an existential moment or not? And that's kind of like the dividing line.
- [09:45]
Sam Stein
Well, give us a taste, then, of what you're getting from your report. I know it's going to be in the newsletter tonight, but, like, what are the answers that you're hearing from the party on those questions?
- [09:54]
Lauren Egan
Not many people have answers on. It depends who you ask. And on the LA situation in particular, I think there's really a disagreement about, you know, how do you talk about it? Democrats, obviously, anything with immigration, Democrats are just like, panic and freak out and don't want to touch. And so I think there's a, you know, some lawmakers who are like, let's just pivot. Let's talk about how Trump wants to go after Medicaid. Let's talk about health care cuts. Let's say that this is a distraction. The whole situation in LA is a distraction, which it might be. Trump might be trying to distract from what's going on on Capitol Hill. But, like, the reality is, like, this is happening. It doesn't really matter to some extent whether or not it's a distraction. Like, it's happening and it's kind of ignoring or trying to sort of, like, sugarcoat the fact that, like, Democrats aren't in power. Like, Republicans do have the ability to sort of set the agenda and set the conversation. And to some extent, Democrats, like, can't shy away from that. They're going to have to engage on it. And you just see the party kind of, like, in disagreement about it, where some people are like, yeah, we got to fucking talk about this, because this is really bad and it's a big deal. And other people are like, nope, it's a distraction. Let's talk about the bill.
- [11:08]
Sam Stein
I just don't. I don't get. Maybe I'm crazy, maybe this is my naivete, but it's like, why is this a distraction for Trump? This is like the project, right? Like, this is what Stephen Miller wants to do. This is what Trump wants to do. They set the tones here. They were the ones saying, go out and ramp up deportations to 3,000 a day or whatever it was. Go and sit outside Home Depot, Right? Like, this is not the distraction. This is the project.
- [11:35]
Lauren Egan
Like, this is the whole thing. He ran, explicitly ran on this.
- [11:39]
Sam Stein
Right. So what do you suppose? How can you not engage? It's like saying to like, you know, an athlete. Oh, you know that game that just started, just worry about practice. Like, what are we talking about?
- [11:51]
Lauren Egan
Right. And again, yeah, it's like whether or not it's a distraction is almost, I think, just kind of like a silly thing to even argue over because, like, it's happening. Like he's doing it. So either engage on it or just like, you know, otherwise just sort of. What are you gonna do? Throw your hands up and say, oh, really sucks? Like, it's kind of ridiculous?
- [12:10]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I guess. I'm curious also. Maybe this is something we could report out before we get sent tonight. But like, you know, is, is Pritzker, is Whitmer, are, you know, are any other Democratic governors, like, taking notes here? Because it's going to come to their state. Right. Like, this is not a California problem. I mean, right now it is, but it's not going to be just a California problem.
- [12:31]
Lauren Egan
Right. I mean, Loose, like said that in his speech last night. He was, he made it clear like this. He believes that it's not just California. I mean, you know, I can't really. I mean, who knows? Maybe there were protests last night in Chicago.
- [12:44]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I would be curious to see if there are protests in like, I guess what were the red states like, you know?
- [12:50]
Lauren Egan
Well, in terms like a bashir Houston.
- [12:51]
Sam Stein
Like sending Austin, Texas. No, I'm talking about like states run by Republican governors. Yeah, I don't, I don't foresee that being an issue, but whatever, we'll see.
- [12:59]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, that's clearly like the point he's trying to make where it's like, it's me now, but it's you tomorrow and the party needs to wake up and take this a lot more seriously.
- [13:08]
Sam Stein
Well, I thought it was an interesting speech last night for sure. Technical issues aside, it had, it did struggle with the volume. Really. I'm, I'm not trying to be a theater critic, but that did happen.
- [13:18]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, but like, you know, who's watched? No one's watching it live these days. It's okay.
- [13:22]
Sam Stein
Well, when you advertise a big speech at 9:30, you should have the, the audio working out. Putting that aside because that's trivial, I, I thought it was a. I mean, I honestly thought it was like a good speech. Like, I think it hit the notes that needed to be hit. I guess the fear is do, do, do people look at it and be like, oh, he's just being, you know, alarmist. And, and Axel Rod and NE Tannon had this back and forth about this too. It's like, I think Axel's point, if I'm summarizing it correctly, it's like, you know, it's really hard to be like don't riot. But also Donald Trump is like a existential threat that you need to oppose. And Nero's point I think was like, actually you can say both and it's pretty, pretty easy. Like don't, you know, don't burn cars, but also, you know, resist what's happening. And so I, I don't know if Newsome threaded that.
- [14:09]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, but maybe I thought he did. But I mean like again, this is where just how people consume this information is like actually really does matter because like, you know, you just like go on tik tok and you're just like fed, fed a bunch of, of like, you know, the like cars burning. And it's like, you know, that's the perception that people are left with. You can just see how Republicans can really. I do think this.
- [14:37]
Sam Stein
Sure. Well, it works both ways and we can end here. But like I've been being fed a lot of stuff of like really like alarming scenes from LA where like this, like for instance, this one where this girl is just walking to her home and she shot with a rubber bullet and it's just like what the was that? That's for another time. Lauren, thank you so much for talking us through this. I am curious to see first draft of the newsletter and also the final product I think is going to be great because tough moment for the party but it's a necessary moment for them to tackle. So appreciate you doing this. Appreciate you guys for watching this. Thank you so much. We keep bringing you content like this and we will talk soon.