Norman Rockwell’s Granddaughter Rips Into DHS for Hijacking His Legacy (w/ Daisy Rockwell)

Summary

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Bulwark Takes: “Norman Rockwell’s Granddaughter Rips Into DHS for Hijacking His Legacy”

Date: December 29, 2025
Guests: Daisy Rockwell (artist, writer, Norman Rockwell’s granddaughter)
Host: Katherine Ramphel

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Overview

This episode explores the controversy around the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) using iconic Norman Rockwell paintings in unauthorized social media campaigns, which promote anti-immigrant sentiment. Daisy Rockwell, Norman Rockwell’s granddaughter, shares her family’s outrage at the misuse of his art, explains what Rockwell actually stood for, and reflects on his evolution as an artist and a voice for civil rights. The discussion explores how Rockwell’s legacy has been misunderstood and manipulated—and what it truly represents about American values.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The DHS Campaign and Unauthorized Use of Rockwell’s Art

• Context: The Department of Homeland Security has been employing Norman Rockwell’s imagery in their anti-immigrant promotional posts without obtaining permission from the Rockwell family and while the works remain under copyright.

  • Example: Using Rockwell’s wholesome Americana images alongside phrases like “Protect our American way of life,” depicting exclusively white figures ([01:36]–[02:30]).

• Daisy Rockwell’s Reaction: Outraged, viewing it as a violation of both copyright and Rockwell’s ethos.

  “We are all, everybody in the family is outraged ... there’s zero people in my family that approve of what the Department of Homeland Security is doing. ... To have our grandfather's work used to promote that was just shocking and appalling.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [06:09]

• DHS Response: Instead of stopping after a public letter and op-ed in USA Today from the family, DHS continued posting more images, including a Boy Scout-themed painting ([06:53]).

The Real Norman Rockwell: Anti-Fascism and Inclusivity

• Rockwell’s Later Career: Contrary to modern interpretations, Rockwell was not just a painter of white, small-town innocence. In the 1960s, he became an outspoken advocate for justice, using his art to highlight civil rights.

  “Norman Rockwell was anti-fascist. These are all anti-fascist paintings.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [03:58]

  "He believed compassion, inclusiveness and justice for all were the real message for America.”
  — Daisy Rockwell, as referenced by the host [02:44]

• Misuse of Imagery: Daisy draws a parallel between Rockwell’s intent and the current DHS campaigns:

  “They used them with text in such a way to make it seem like his work aligned with their values.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [04:48]

The Complexities of Copyright and Control

• Copyright vs. Memes and Parody: While Rockwell’s art frequently appears online (often as parody or commentary), the family selectively pushes back when the usage is particularly egregious or misleading:
  • Daisy gives examples of cultural parodies—aliens or pop stars taking the place of original figures in Rockwell’s works ([05:09]).
  • They chose to publicly challenge DHS to “educate” and make clear the misuse ([05:04]–[05:51]).

Norman Rockwell’s Artistic Transformation

• From Wholesome to Woke: While Rockwell was famous for wholesome, mostly white depictions of American life, he shifted to overt civil rights imagery in his later years.

  • The pivotal work: “The Problem We All Live With” (Ruby Bridges’ story), published when Rockwell was nearly 70 years old ([10:02]).
  • Daisy notes artistic decisions such as faceless officials in the Ruby Bridges painting, focusing all attention on the child’s bravery ([08:01]–[08:41]).

  “He could have rested on his laurels ... but instead, he decided to create a proof, create an archive of how he felt about this moment and to stand up and make himself counted.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [10:37]

  "What's possible at 70—that you can, you know, you can create your best work or ... make your loudest stand when you're an older person."
  — Daisy Rockwell [11:17]

The Family’s Indignation

• Unified Disgust: The Rockwell family, despite internal differences, is unanimous in their opposition to the DHS misappropriation.
  • Daisy views the social media team responsible as “trolls,” dismissing the effort as adolescent and thoughtless ([06:53]–[07:20]).

What Would Daisy Say to Trump or DHS Leaders?

• Daisy expresses cynicism about engaging with figures like Donald Trump or DHS Secretary Kristi Noem; she doubts any appeal to values or facts would be influential.

  “If I could speak to Donald Trump, I wouldn’t bother because I don’t think anything would stick.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [01:30]/[08:54]

  “This appropriation, trying to appropriate American images, trying to create this narrative of white supremacy, I would have many things to tell her [Kristi Noem].”
  — Daisy Rockwell [09:30]

Reclaiming Rockwell’s Legacy

• Challenges of Public Perception: Daisy acknowledges that the public tends to remember the “wholesome” American imagery and forgets—or never knew about—Rockwell’s passionate response to civil rights and inclusion ([07:25]–[08:01], [10:02]).
• Her Intent: The family’s campaign is about clarity, education, and defending Norman Rockwell’s actual values in the face of political distortion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Misappropriation:

  “They used them with text in such a way to make it seem like his work aligned with their values.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [04:48]

• On Civil Rights Paintings:

  “He was inspired by Ruby Bridges’ solo walk to school... let’s focus on her and this journey.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [08:01]

• On Government Trolling:

  “This is like a bunch of 11-year-old boys ... they’re just trolls. Like, they don’t even know what they’re doing.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [06:53]

• On Artistic Courage at Any Age:

  “What’s possible at 70— that you can ... create your best work or ... make your loudest stand when you’re an older person as well, and you don’t have to just ... sit back and say, okay, I guess this is how things turned out.”
  — Daisy Rockwell [11:17]

• On Talking to Trump:

  "If I could speak to Donald Trump, I wouldn't bother because I don't think anything would stick."
  — Daisy Rockwell [01:30]/[08:54]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• DHS’s Use of Rockwell and Family’s Reaction: [01:36]–[06:09]
• Explanation of Copyright & Internet Use: [05:04]–[05:51]
• Rockwell as Civil Rights Painter: [07:49]–[08:41]
• Message to Trump and Noem: [08:54]–[09:34]
• Rockwell’s Late-life Transformation: [10:02]–[11:17]
• Family’s Unified Outrage, Characterizing DHS Team: [06:09]–[07:20]

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Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, slightly irreverent, and passionate. Daisy Rockwell is forthright, sometimes humorous, but unwavering in her condemnation of DHS and defense of her grandfather’s progressive legacy.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a nuanced look into the modern political manipulation of iconic art and the fight by the artist’s heirs to reclaim and protect its meaning, especially when it comes to issues of American identity, inclusion, and history. Daisy Rockwell’s perspective provides both a correction to public misinterpretation and an inspiring reminder of the power of standing up for one’s values—at any age.

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Transcript

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[Daisy Rockwell]

So I could speak to Donald Trump. I wouldn't bother because I don't think anything would stick.

[Katherine Ramphel]

That was Daisy Rockwell. She may not have a lot to say to Donald Trump, but she has a lot of words of wisdom for the rest of us. I'm Katherine Ramphel and in this very special episode of Bulwark Takes, we're going to get into all of that soon because Daisy is a writer, she's an artist, and she also happens to be the granddaughter of the great Norman Rockwell. Yes, that Norman Rockwell. The Norman Rockwell, whose work defined the 20th century and whose famous paintings captured all of these wholesome iconic moments of American middle class life. Some of Rockwell's famous paintings have been used this year without permission by the Department of Homeland Security, basically co opting his legacy to promote their anti immigrant campaign in social media posts. So like I'll give you one example, one of these posts read Protect our American way of life. And it was alongside of course, white women, white men, and cute little white children saluting the American flag. All of this completely misreads Norman Rockwell's legacy. Yes, he was known in the early 20th century for these very white, wholesome Boy Scout populated paintings of small, small town America. But in the 60s, Rockwell basically got woke and painted some of the most iconic images, enduring images of the civil rights movement. The Rockwell family was understandably unhappy about this hijacking of their patriarch's legacy in Furtherance of an anti immigrant agenda. In a letter, an op ed published in USA Today, they expressed their outrage and indignation. They have asked for DHS to stop. DHS did not stop. In fact, they just published another one of these social media posts with a famous Norman Rockwell Santa painting, again part of the government propaganda campaign. And in their letter in USA Today, the family writes that this goes against everything that Norman Rockwell stood for. They say he believed compassion, inclusiveness and justice for all were the real message for America. I visited Rockwell's granddaughter Daisy at the Rockwell Museum in Stockbridge, Massachusetts. Here's our discussion.

[Daisy Rockwell]

Norman Rockwell was antifocus. These are all anti fascist paintings.

[Katherine Ramphel]

They're using Norman Ruffle's work to promote fascism.

[Daisy Rockwell]

Yeah, you know, that's the amusing thing where the current government is trying to proclaim antifa as a terrorist group, but.

It'S really just the idea of anti fascism.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about this Department of Homeland Security campaign.

[Daisy Rockwell]

Well, it seems like they have a bunch of.

Social media people working on.

Promotion and recruitment for homeland Security. And I think they're kind of stealing.

Images from all over the place.

So they. But it came to our attention because they used some of Norman Rockwell's paintings.

Without getting any authorization because those works.

Are under copyright and they used them with text in such a way to make it seem like his work aligned with their values.

[Interviewer]

How did you first come to find out about this use of his work?

[Daisy Rockwell]

I mean, as you know, his work appears everywhere online.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Daisy Rockwell]

And it's not really possible to control in a lot of ways. But there's, you know, there's these gray areas in copyright law, like fair use allows for parody and satire. So you see freedom from want the Thanksgiving painting, you know, with everybody replaced with like aliens or like members of BTS or something like that. And we can't and we don't control these things. We wanted to push back, we wanted to educate, we wanted to be clear. Like we didn't want to be euphemistic about how we felt or how we felt that it was a wrong usage of his work.

[Interviewer]

Well, when I read your letter, I saw it not just as being about educating the people, you know, educating Americans with the talents of your grandfather and where he fits into the American canon. But also I got a sense of indignation.

[Daisy Rockwell]

Just the horrors that are going on right now perpetrated by that particular branch of government, by Homeland Security. We are all, everybody in the family is outraged by that. Like, no matter how we may differ in our opinions about various things, there's zero people in my family that approve of what Department of Homeland Security is doing. You know, it's anti immigrant, it's racist. The human rights violations constantly happening to have our grandfather's work used to promote that was just shocking and appalling. And so we wanted to fight it.

[Interviewer]

Has your family had any contact with.

[Daisy Rockwell]

DHS over say, but like after we published our letter and posted a notice, they put up another image like of Boy Scouts. So like, I mean to me that just means yes, this is like a bunch of 11 year old boys that are like, they're just trolls. Like they don't even know what they're doing. Yeah, I know that.

Like they're probably just hiring people that aren't even sitting in an office or anything.

[Interviewer]

I think when people think of your grandfather, they often think of images like this sort of like wholesome slice of town. Right?

[Daisy Rockwell]

Yeah, yeah, they do. Which is actually interesting because he grew.

Up, he was a city boy.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Daisy Rockwell]

Yeah. And so like a lot of this was sort of a fantasy for him.

[Interviewer]

Was there a particular triggering event or moment in your grandfather's life that led him to start more actively portraying the civil rights movement?

[Daisy Rockwell]

There were a combination of factors that were both about his artistic control, but also about these values that he was seeing all around him that made him break with the post at that time. And it was only after that that that he painted what are known as his civil rights paintings, such as the Problem We All Live With. So he was inspired by Ruby Bridges solo Walk to School. We know who did this, right? In a sense. But he's not putting that there. He's saying, let's just focus on her and this journey and let's not even think about these men.

Cause you can't see their heads. Which is sort of interesting.

[Interviewer]

If you had the opportunity to talk with, let's say, Kristi Noem, who was the DHS secretary, or Donald Trump himself, what would you say?

[Daisy Rockwell]

Donald Trump has a kind of similar mental status to my father, only my father is more charming, obviously. So if I could speak to Donald Trump, I wouldn't bother because I don't think anything would stick. If I could talk to Kristi Noem, you know, there's so many things I'd say.

I mean, first of all about the.

Dog, but just, yeah, this appropriation, trying to appropriate American images, trying to create this narrative of white supremacy, I would.

Have many things to tell her. She probably wouldn't be interested in them though.

[Interviewer]

Presumably part of the reason why the Department of Homeland Security was using these images without authorization is that his work has been linked with, again, a nostalgia for a wider past, a wider, more wholesome past. How do you think he would have felt about that portrayal of his work or that portrayal of his legacy, that.

[Daisy Rockwell]

Juncture that we're talking about, like, late 50s, early 60s? I think he started to become aware of how the legacy could look. And I think it's kind of exciting to think about the problem we all live with was published in January of 1964. He turned 70 in February 1964. And I love this. I never had thought about this before, but just when I was researching all these states that he was. He had just. He turned 70, right? So he. And he was extremely famous. He was a celebrity. So he could have rested on his laurels or he could have put out statements, you know, but instead, he decided to create a proof, create an archive of how he felt about this moment and to stand up and make himself counted. And so I think that's exciting, both as a story about him, but also about, you know, what's possible at 70 that you can, you know, you can create your best work or, you know, you can make your loudest stand when.

You'Re an older person as well, and you don't have to just sort of sit back and say, okay, I guess this is how things turned out.

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