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Charlie Sykes
Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark. I am joined by Tim Miller and Will Summer. It's your favorite trio. This is a Bulwark Take production. So you know, subscribe to that feed. We're going to get into the habit of saying it's Bulwark Takes. I was told that we should do that, you know.
Sam Stein
Yeah. And subscribe. We wouldn't have to do that if.
Tim Miller
You people would just subscribe.
Sam Stein
Okay. Subscribe, comment, tell your friends.
Charlie Sykes
I appreciate that this Never have I been more nervous about a Bulwark ticks than this one. This has such high potential to go off the rails in multiple directions, including legal ones. So I'm going to play the role of, you know, organizer here and I'm gonna Straight fellas cook. Yeah, this is about Benny Johnson and Milo Yiannopoulos. They appear to be tiffing over the weekend. Will, as the person who swims in these waters most. What is going on?
Will Sommer
Sure. So Benny Johnson, you know, very prominent right wing podcaster, he's been dogged, I would say, for years by accusations that I would say are unfounded, at least publicly that he's gay. And Milo Yiannopoulos, kind of longtime right wing provocateur.
Sam Stein
Well, we'll get to get to that.
Charlie Sykes
We made it a minute.
Sam Stein
Unfounded. I was with you. The word unfounded felt a little far. Then, you know, maybe you could say disputed.
Will Sommer
Say disputed. And so Milo Yiannopoulos, kind of longtime right wing provocateur. He goes on Tim Pool's show and really goes on the offensive and says, you know, we all know these stories. Everyone in the conservative world Knows these stories about Benny being gay and hooking up with guys. This is important because Benny has really position himself as like a very traditional family man. He has a bunch of kids, he's married to a woman. And now it's gotten to the point where Benny is threatening to get revenge in the legal arena.
Sam Stein
I should just add on to that really quick. Traditional family man is important because he has himself in the tr. Like capital T. Trad sense. Like I've watched speeches at TPOZA where he talks about traditional family. Get a wife, get a piece of land, get children. You know, not like I'm a.
Tim Miller
Also a family man, I have a family.
Sam Stein
But that, I don't know that counts in his view.
Tim Miller
I think that's an important way to. To. To. Yes, you know, it's.
Charlie Sykes
And I think that was. Milo kept pointing. I think Milo pointed out that he keeps posting pictures of his family. He's very public about it. But I guess before I turn it over to Tim about this stuff, I. The only thing that has been kind of unanswered to me Will, is just why now? Like what the.
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean I believe Milo has brought this issue up in the past, but I mean I think we can see this as part of a broader attack on kind of like the ramp of establishment conservatism. We can look at Candace Owens conspiracy theories about Turning Point usa. We can look at, you know, the rise of Nick Fuentes and Milo is. I don't think this is as big a deal as those other things, but Milo's kind of like putting his little ladder up on the castle and trying to climb up. I mean this is. He sees Benny correctly as kind of like part of the Turning Point USA operation broadly.
Sam Stein
Yeah. Before we get into the Prurian stuff, this actually, this is important about why.
Tim Miller
This matters and this broader crack up that we're seeing on the maga. Right.
Sam Stein
And you can think about it, I think more as there's kind of a couple of factions. There's like a traditional.
Tim Miller
I don't think there's any old establishment.
Sam Stein
Anymore, but there's like a MAGA establishment which is like people that have traditional.
Tim Miller
Republican views that have Donald Trump kind of.
An artifice, like a Trumpian orange artifice on top of their traditional Republican views. Ben Shapiro would fit that category.
Sam Stein
Then you have kind of like the MAGA establishment which was basically Charlie Kirk was representing that like more MAGA views.
Tim Miller
You know, departing from the net true conservatism on a variety of issues, particularly foreign policy in Israel, you know, and.
Sam Stein
Then you have kind of this outsider.
Tim Miller
Group that is trying to argue that they are the real maga, right? That they represent the real MAGA establishment. And that is what this fight is about. Like the Kirk legacy, where you will.
Sam Stein
Have, you know, Milo is on with Tucker.
Tim Miller
You have the Milo, Tucker, Candace crowd, you know, arguing their view. And I think Benny, in his way.
Sam Stein
Having been, you know, working with Charlie and having always speaking at Charlie's events and being the brains behind this, maybe something to think about. The stagecraft at TTP USA events was very. He's very big on stagecraft. What are you trying to say? Nothing, just pointing that out. And. And so he. He is. I think that is when you say, why now?
Tim Miller
Right?
Sam Stein
Like that is part like this ongoing broad fight over the Kirk legacy and.
Tim Miller
Who represents the MAGA establishment. Benny is in that more traditional side.
Charlie Sykes
And he's got 4 million followers.
Tim Miller
Huge, huge audience.
Charlie Sykes
He's a huge audience. I'll just note, like. So I think it's worth just sort of going over how this all started again because.
Basically Miles going on Tim Pool's podcast and, well, correct me if I get anything wrong, says Benny's always posting pictures, children and.
Sam Stein
Should we just watch the video?
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, watch the video.
Milo Yiannopoulos
One of the most distinctive things about the right wing in this country is its homosexual overtones. Benny Johnson posts pictures of his children every two days. It's not. It's weird. And everybody knows what went on with Benny Johnson in those lobbies and in those hotel rooms at Sass. Everybody knows.
McDonald's Legal Disclaimer Voice
I don't. I don't know what you're talking about.
Milo Yiannopoulos
Men. Younger men, not underage. At least I don't know that his wife was crying drunk in the lobby. Three sasses in a row about how her husband was upstairs with boys.
McDonald's Legal Disclaimer Voice
Come on.
Sam Stein
But go ask her.
Milo Yiannopoulos
Come on, go ask her.
McDonald's Legal Disclaimer Voice
Come on, Milo, go ask her. Aren't you ever scared of getting sued? You say so. I'm sitting here like I am humbled by the lore and your ability, audacity.
Tim Miller
Just.
McDonald's Legal Disclaimer Voice
I mean, there's no teapots in this room right now to express how I feel.
Milo Yiannopoulos
George, I have said these things about people for 20 years and never once in my career been sued. I've issued three corrections in my entire journalistic career because I get my facts right and people know that they do not want to go through discovery.
McDonald's Legal Disclaimer Voice
Actually, I want to say this.
Milo Yiannopoulos
I've never been sued for anything I've ever said about anyone.
McDonald's Legal Disclaimer Voice
The one thing I could. I need to say this.
Milo Yiannopoulos
I need to Say this because I'm right.
Charlie Sykes
So what stands out to me here is that George Santos.
Tim Miller
Is there.
Charlie Sykes
George Santos being the voice of reason, telling and saying, hey, Milo, aren't you afraid of getting sued? George Santos recently. Pardon? George Santos saying, hey, buddy, you might want to, I don't know, take it a little bit easy on the libel.
I'd, Sorry, I can't with George Santos. Tim, you have some thoughts about adding people in general that I know you want to get into? What, what did you make of that?
Sam Stein
Yeah, well, I, I, I made a couple things. Milo feels like he's on Allegedly outing.
Charlie Sykes
Allegedly.
Sam Stein
Milo feels like he's on sturdy turf, so we'll just start there. He did not seem at all concerned about the legal threats or the legal concerns. I think that's one thing I took. I'm going to get into why.
Tim Miller
I think why.
Sam Stein
But I just, just kind of setting the table because even I get sometimes a little bit uncomfortable, particularly when I see, like, liberal straits very excited about outing conservative gates. Sometimes they're a little too excited for my taste, and I'm like, okay, guys, all right. You know, this, you know, I think maybe we can, you know, show a little bit more judgment here because I, you know, I think that this isn't, it isn't as cut and dry as it always is. I'm not going to get Sam uncomfortable and, and blushing talking about sexuality, but it's very possible that people can have gay urges and act on them at times and also have happy heterosexual families, and that's fine. And I think when you put yourself in the role of God and start saying, oh, I'm going to decide who and what needs to be revealed about other people's lives.
Tim Miller
That makes me uncomfortable at times.
Sam Stein
I think that there are obviously exceptions to that. You know, you have a pastor out there that's doing gay stuff while doing conversion therapies. You know, we could go down, down the whole list. I think that there are various.
Charlie Sykes
What else is on your list?
Tim Miller
Judgment call.
Sam Stein
Well, I think in the case of Benny, I wouldn't call it outing, I guess. I mean, Benny tweeted himself a picture of, of a, of a website he was on that included gay cruise advertisements, and he was using this to pretend to be outraged on behalf of the people who care about traditional values, saying that, why is this smut on my computer? Not realizing that those ads are targeted to people that search for such matters. My guess is that, Sam, you've never had a gay cruise ad delivered to you.
Charlie Sykes
You know, if I have so be it.
Sam Stein
I don't know exactly. Sure.
Charlie Sykes
I have not. Yeah.
Sam Stein
Anyway, there are also, you know, again, the other pieces of evidence that Milo put forth, including among this, again, this is not me outing him. This is just saying Saeed Jones allegedly outing.
Charlie Sykes
Go ahead.
Sam Stein
Yeah. Over at the Vibe Check podcast, Sai Jones said that he kissed Benny Johnson in the dressing room at the BuzzFeed holiday party in 2013.
Tim Miller
I would say, to defend Sayeed's honor.
Sam Stein
That he writes at Quantum to this day.
Okay. I mean, again, that's a guy saying that. And then we can go through what Milo said. The point is that like, like in this case, there's a long documented list.
Tim Miller
Of things that Benny's been well aware of while he's been positioning himself as.
Sam Stein
Like, the representative of trad values to the youth and like, you know, what goes around comes around on that kind of stuff.
Charlie Sykes
Can I ask, Will, can I ask you a question? Bulwark Takes is sponsored by. Com. There's a lot out there telling us how to be better, be a better parent, a better partner, a better worker, better version of yourself. It's honestly exhausting. When I need to hit pause and reset, Calm is the tool I reach to to release that stress and find a space to breathe. Even on the busiest days, Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation. It's here to help you feel better. If you're feeling like you could use some support navigating life's ups and downs, get the relief you need with calm sessions. They include guided meditations to help you work through anxiety and stress and boost your focus, to build healthier habits and to take better care of your physical health or sleep stories. Sleep meditations and calming music to help you drift off to restfulness. Grounding exercises to help you reset and relax when you're feeling overwhelmed and so much more. Calm has over 2 million 5 star reviews and can help you stress less, help you sleep more, help you live mindfully, calm your mind, change your life. Calm has an exclusive offer just for listeners of our show. Get 40% off a comm premium subscription at com.com bulwarktakes it's an amazing value, folks. Go to C-A-L-M.com bulwarktakes for 40% off unlimited access to CALM's entire library. Com.com bulwarktakes tell. Com you heard about them from me. Let's say Benny responds and Benny's wife responds and they say, you know they're going to sue. We'll see if that comes to fruition. Benny also said Tim Pool called him and apologized for, I guess, platforming. Milo, what if like tomorrow Benny were to come out and be like, you know what? I am bisexual. Like would there be. I'm not saying he is, I'm just not. But what would be the actual reaction, do you think in the movie it.
Will Sommer
Would be very negative? Yes. I mean Benny has really, and Tim was, was getting this point is, I mean Benny is kind of positioning himself as like one of the heirs of Charlie Kirk. I mean he is really up there in terms of influence and power and Aud.
Come out and say, you know, well, yeah, maybe I hooked up with these guys. I mean, I, I, I, I think it would definitely sort of change his trajectory on the right. I mean, I think I can look at, you can look at guys who are, you know, out out right wing influencers and typically they're people like Rob Smith who just went to Qatar, you know, much more marginal figures than someone like Benny who, you know, as we talked about, has really made his family like a huge part of his identity.
Sam Stein
As a commentator and Christian and Christianity and traditional Christian values. Look, every year I've gone, I'm skipping.
Tim Miller
It this year for mental health purposes. Maybe back in 2026. I don't think I can do it this year.
Sam Stein
Did I have not told you that?
Charlie Sykes
You haven't told me that.
Sam Stein
It's just a lot. I don't know, flying to Phoenix, the Charlie Kirk.
Tim Miller
We'll talk about it.
Will Sommer
That's a lot.
Sam Stein
Anyway, I've been skipping it.
Tim Miller
I think I'm gonna skip it this year.
Sam Stein
But I've been going for several years now. And it's not just like, you know, paying lip service. It's not just like the trolling which.
Tim Miller
He does of gays and of, you know, people who present their gender differently or people have different types of families. He does all that kind of trolling and he did, I mean in his speech, I think a year or two ago, I don't even remember who was the. There was a Biden had somebody that worked in the administration that was trans, that was stealing luggage. Sam something.
Sam Stein
Anyway, like his whole, his whole speech.
Tim Miller
Was just making fun of that guy.
Sam Stein
Like it was just a series of so like, so insulting other people is.
Tim Miller
A key part of his deal.
Sam Stein
But also like they did a lot with like Christian fellowship and traditional Christian fellowship and gathering. So to your point about like, could it hurt? I'm like, could you exist as a gay influencer on the maga, Right? Like, yeah, absolutely.
Tim Miller
I mean you mentioned George Santos. You mentioned Rob Smith.
Sam Stein
He can exist.
Charlie Sykes
But Milo and George Santos were both on the podcast.
Sam Stein
Yeah, but I mean, Milo was.
Tim Miller
Has been ostracized to the, you know.
Sam Stein
The total outskirts of this thing. And at the position where he is, at the amount of money that he's bringing in and the way in which.
Tim Miller
That they have, like, intermingled the traditional Christian evangelical organizations with their political organization.
Sam Stein
I think it would become.
Tim Miller
It would be very challenging for him.
Sam Stein
And so that's one element to consider. And also, you just look at this poster. He's pushing him back. He's like, we're happy.
Tim Miller
They're miserable.
Sam Stein
And it's like, I look at that and I'm like, maybe he's happy. He might be happy.
Tim Miller
I don't know.
Sam Stein
As I said, you can maybe have. You can have a happy family and also have other, other sexual ideas, but, like, they're miserable. Like, this is. Like, this is core to what he's saying, right? Like that the people that are not doing it and the traditional man, woman, child, we, you know, have.
Tim Miller
Have a home in the. In the farm country. The people who aren't doing it that traditional 1950s way are miserable and wrong and bad. And, you know, it's hard to kind of make that argument when you're palling.
Sam Stein
Around at the TPUSA conference.
Charlie Sykes
Palling around. He did say demon possession is real man. Christians speak out against demons. So I think he does have fairly.
Sam Stein
Can we read some of Milo's tweet responding to the alleged. Yeah, go for it. Because I think that. I think. Milo, you never want to hand it to Milo. I'm going to start this by saying that Milo is a serial liar and provocateur.
Tim Miller
Yeah.
Sam Stein
And yet it also does not look like somebody who is scared that much about legal action. The people who have poured money into making you a big deal are about to lose their entire investment if you sue me. He continues, I know more about your marriage than you think I do. And I have evidence and I have witnesses. I know who to subpoena. I know what questions to ask about nocturnal liaisons dangerouses with chaps in assless chaps being caught in flagrante delicto at conferences attended by students.
Tim Miller
No.
Sam Stein
Then he goes on to apologize to.
Tim Miller
Benny's wife for telling her that she looks old and looks twice her age, and then goes on to talk about how she is crying and he feels bad for her because she was crying several times in Benny.
Sam Stein
Sorry, what does infrante delicto mean in Flagrante delicto.
Charlie Sykes
What does it mean?
Sam Stein
You never heard of that in Delicious? Never heard of it.
Will Sommer
That means you were caught, you know, in the actual.
Charlie Sykes
Oh, okay. Sorry. Put that into my copy more often. All right, well, that's a great way to end this.
Will Sommer
Can I just make one more point, please? After the Charlie Kirk assassination, Benny Johnson was talking a lot about how Charlie saved him from what Benny described as degeneracy. Now, Benny talked a lot about, in part, drinking too much and I guess being an alcoholic, essentially is how he described it, but he also just kind of described degeneracy more broadly. Now, typically on the right, when people are talking about degeneracy, they typically mean of a sexual variety. He didn't really get into it, but, you know, it's just sort of one more bit of that's floating out there. I think when people on the right.
Sam Stein
Look at Benny, I want to take one more hit at Milo while. While we're using his, you know, laundering.
Tim Miller
His attack on Benny Johnson here.
Sam Stein
I should at least say, in the scale of Milo, none of his arguments make any sense. And, like, he goes on to Tucker last week, and we did a little.
Tim Miller
Bit of this, Sam, on the podcast.
Sam Stein
People should go listen to. But he's like, on the one end, he's like, gay isn't real. It's nothing. It's just a trauma response. And then on the other hand, he's like, these people are definitely gay.
Tim Miller
And then Tucker is, like, asking him what is gay?
Sam Stein
And, you know, he doesn't bring up the fact that Tucker admitted that when he was a young person, he had a bathroom encounter where he felt very offended that a gay person had, I guessed, come on to him when he was in high school, and that that informs his views. So, like, these guys kind of.
Basically, they want to use gay to just call it to just shorten it. They want to use gay to. To advance their factional arguments however they see fit. You know what I mean? And I do think that is like.
Tim Miller
The sum of what's happening here, which.
Sam Stein
Is that is nobody actually cares about. About, you know, gay sex in this. In these arguments. None of these people have.
Tim Miller
Have rigid ideologies around this.
Sam Stein
None of these people care about. It's not like they have genuine care about Benny's kids or any of that. It all.
Tim Miller
It's just using it as a cudgel in whatever way is convenient at the moment.
Charlie Sykes
It is notable that in Milo's telling someone who's been in a gay relationship for a decade, Pete Buttigieg just faking it and someone who's been in a straight relationship for a decade, Benny Johnson is faking it and they're just, you know, use either hiding their sexuality or using it politically for their advantage. So it is worth noting not gonna necessarily go off of exactly Milo alone. George Santos voice of reason all right, Will Tim appreciate you both everyone. Subscribe to the feed where we have elevated conversations about homosexuality in the right Take care.
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Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Date: December 8, 2025
Hosts: Charlie Sykes (Bulwark), Sam Stein, Tim Miller
Guest: Will Sommer
This episode delves into the recent right-wing internecine drama centered on Benny Johnson, TPUSA’s traditional-values influencer, and the explosive claims made by Milo Yiannopoulos. The Bulwark team explores the veracity and motives behind these allegations, examines the broader civil war inside MAGA conservatism, and interrogates the role that sexuality, hypocrisy, and factional warfare play within today’s right-wing sphere.
On Factional Infighting:
“Milo's kind of like putting his little ladder up on the castle and trying to climb up...he sees Benny correctly as kind of like part of the Turning Point USA operation broadly.”
— Will Sommer (03:17)
On Benny's ‘Traditional’ Persona:
“Get a wife, get a piece of land, get children…not like, I'm a — also a family man, I have a family. But that, I don't know that counts in his view.”
— Sam Stein/Tim Miller (02:37–02:57)
On the Dangers of Outing:
“When you put yourself in the role of God and start saying, oh, I'm going to decide who and what needs to be revealed about other people's lives—that makes me uncomfortable at times.”
— Tim Miller (08:39)
On Social Media & Evidence:
“Benny tweeted himself a picture of a website he was on that included gay cruise advertisements…saying, why is this smut on my computer? Not realizing that those ads are targeted to people that search for such matters.”
— Tim Miller (09:15)
On the Impact if the Allegations Were True:
“It would definitely sort of change his trajectory on the right. I mean, I think you can look at guys who are, you know, out right wing influencers and typically they're people like Rob Smith…much more marginal figures than someone like Benny.”
— Will Sommer (12:28)
On Contradictions and Weaponization:
“On the one end, he's like, gay isn't real. It's nothing. It's just a trauma response. And then on the other hand, he's like, these people are definitely gay.”
— Sam Stein (17:34)
On Lack of Principle:
“It's just using it as a cudgel in whatever way is convenient at the moment.”
— Tim Miller (18:36)
The Bulwark crew approaches the subject with their characteristic blend of sharp skepticism, humor, and cautious morality. They skewer the cynicism and opportunism of right-wing influencer feuds, while also taking pains to differentiate between justified critique and harmful outing or rumor-mongering.
The episode ultimately frames these allegations less as a genuine moral reckoning and more as the latest volley in the constant civil war consuming MAGA conservatism: an intra-right struggle where ‘traditional values’ and sexuality are brandished far more as weapons than as principles.
For listeners curious about the melodrama on the MAGA right, the power struggles behind TPUSA, and the ethical dilemmas of political ‘outing,’ this episode is an incisive and lively primer.