← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:01]
Sam Stein
Not all meals are created equal. For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time, and lunch doesn't. McDonald's breakfast comes first. Hey, guys, Sam Stein here, managing editor at the Bulwark. And I am joined by the Grand Poobah. The dean, I would say, of the DOJ press corps is his eminence, Glenn Thrush of the New York Times. Glenn, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. I know you're a busy, but there's a lot going on in your world, and we need you to unpack it for us. And for those who don't know, Glenn and I go back, God, you know, 15 years of reporting. We met back during the Obama era. We've been crossing paths for a variety of reasons and times since then. Glenn is incredible, one of the best reporters in the game, and really, if you haven't read his stuff, he is just dominating the DOJ beat. So, Glenn, thank you for doing this. Appreciate it.
- [00:58]
Glenn Thrush
Well, I mean, that's nonsense, but thank you anyway.
- [01:01]
Sam Stein
Well, I'm contractually obligated to say that so that. So that we get the viewers to stay. All right, let's talk about what's going on. I want to get into the politics of this in a little bit, but really, I think where you can provide insight for us is what's going on at the DOJ in the setup here. I think people basically know it, but just for the purposes of setting you up, Pam Bondi, Cash Patel, and Dan Bongino have tried to manage the non release of files around Jeffrey Epstein. And they have tried a variety of different ways to say that they are not releasing these. And it's resulted in incredible, incredible amounts of friction that we're not accustomed to seeing. And it resulted in Dan Bongino, the deputy at the FBI, taking a day off from work, which is not normal either. And I guess the question is, what is the actual situation inside closed doors at the doj? How much friction actually is there within those ranks?
- [01:56]
Glenn Thrush
Oh, I think there's a tremendous amount of friction. You know, that said, you also have to separate the reality TV element of this because these are these three characters, right? Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino and Cash Patel are creatures of this Trump media ecosphere. So there's a certain amount of kind of posturing and a certain amount of playing social media and trying to outfox each other that way, and, you know, the usual playing up to the boss and, you know, Stephen Miller, who is in many ways kind of running the show.
- [02:31]
Sam Stein
Okay.
- [02:31]
Glenn Thrush
On law enforcement. So, so there's, there's an element of that that. You know, the one thing I want to kind of say, which is more of a serious point off the top before we get into some of the shenanigans, is, is the point I just made about Miller, which is these three characters, Patel, Bongino and Bondi, two of them, Patel and Bongino would not have these jobs in any other administration or in any other set of circumstances. Patel has some government experience. He clearly belongs in a West Wing or a White House. And he served on the Hill for. But he had no experience with the FBI. And he's by far the least experienced FBI director in the history of the institution. And Bongino is actually taking it to another level. He has a job called Deputy Director, which I don't expect people to understand, but that is arguably one of the 10 or 12 most important jobs in Washington, D.C. he runs the day to day operations of the Bureau. And that job has always gone to somebody with 10, 20, 30, 40 years experience who have, has risen through the ranks. And Bongino is a podcaster who served as a Secret Service agent. And it's instructive to understand that on the FBI side, these guys are not.
- [03:48]
Sam Stein
Why do you think that is? And how do you think that is playing a role in the current brouhaha over the Epstein files?
- [03:54]
Glenn Thrush
Because they got one foot in and one foot out. Bongino is somebody who has gone on, I think it was on Maria Bartiromo, but on Fox, grousing about how tough the job is, saying that he had a real, that he's having real difficulties in his family, that he didn't realize how big the workload was. And his behavior thus far, and my reporting confirms this, is of somebody who is thinking about what life is going to look like on the outside again. So basically they got on the inside by being outsiders and carrying up to Trump and saying things that he liked. And now they are in a position where they themselves are the establishment and chaos ensues. Chaos and hilarity.
- [04:39]
Sam Stein
Right. Is the same for Patel.
- [04:41]
Glenn Thrush
Patel's a little bit of a different character. I mean, I think, I think what we're kind of seeing, we don't have a real sense, by the way, with Patel of how firm his grasp is on, on the FBI in general because he is so opaque. And as my brilliant colleague Adam Goldman wrote recently, he's been. Patel's been subjecting people to polygraph tests. And one of the tests, one of the control questions is, have you said nasty things about Cash Patel. This is a guy who sues reporters. He is a guy who is, you know, who operates very much inside the Trump bubble. Made, you know, made. All you need to know is he wrote children's books in which Donald was the main character. But that said, Patel is also a serious. He's an intelligent person. He's had a serious career as a policy person, both on the Hill and in the White House, and he seems to be keeping his head down as much as possible.
- [05:34]
Sam Stein
Well, Glenn, let me ask you this, and pardon if I'm just missing the answer or I missed the answer. I'm sort of curious why the Epstein thing came to a head now. And by that I mean, you know, we obviously had that early disclosure of the binders from Pam Bondi where she brought these influences and she promised this big reveal. They all got binders. They were surprised to get the binders, and they opened the binders, and there really wasn't any new information in there. And there's a lot of agitation over that. And then it sort of was on a relatively low simmer. I mean, not. It wasn't gone, but it was on a relatively low simmer until recently. And then it was. I think, God, it was like the July 4th weekend, it was dropped to Axios that they had concluded some sort of finding, and they'd found nothing, and the tapes were conclusive that he had killed himself. And I just sort of have look back now and wondering, like, why did they decide? Was there. Was there some compelling reason, some deadline, something that I'm missing for why they decided that they needed to come out at that point in time to make that declaration?
- [06:37]
Glenn Thrush
This is why we cover this stuff. This is one of the great serendipities and an unexpected. You know, it reminds me. Is it. Is it the Weezer song that talks about the thread that unties the sweater?
- [06:48]
Sam Stein
Yes, that is Weezer, right? Glenn. Glenn, I thought you were too old to understand Weezer. I thought that was too young for you, but good. That's good to know.
- [06:55]
Glenn Thrush
They're exactly my age.
- [06:58]
Sam Stein
I am not.
- [06:58]
Glenn Thrush
I'll tell you what, that comment when we're off. No, I think, like, look, I think you got a situation. I was taken by surprise, too, because I. Right.
- [07:10]
Sam Stein
It, like, came out of nowhere. Right. It just seemed. It seemed like a weird time to drop it.
- [07:14]
Glenn Thrush
Well, first of all, Bondi made a cataclysmic mistake early on in February. She came in and, you know, for those who are unlettered in her history, then why Wouldn't you be? She was the last second replacement for Matt Gaetz and she's very close to Susie Wiles. And Bondi has a real track record. A two term Attorney General of Florida. She is credentialed for the job, unlike her cohorts at the FBI. And by the way, there's some question as to whether or not she wanted Patel and certainly Bongino in those jobs in the first place. But anyway, I was sitting around on Sunday night, about an hour before the Axios broke the story, being told that this was coming up the pike. We didn't have the documents, but. And the person I was talking to, the source I was talking to, didn't think it was that big a deal either. They were like, they're finally putting this to bed. Bongino and Patel had gone on Fox on Bartiromo to sort of say Epstein had killed himself. It was, it was. Right. It's if, if your listeners haven't looked at this, it's a pretty interesting piece of tape. They almost look like they're in the principal's office apologizing for something like, like, oh my God, he committed suicide. Which, which, by the way, you know, again, if people really want to look at things. There was an Office of the Inspector General report that we wrote about last year that fairly exhaustively didn't include the video that was released. Fairly exhaustively concluded that it's the Bureau of Federal Bureau of Prisons. They're screwed up. And a lot of the mistakes are consistent with mistakes they've seen in other prisons across the system. So that's, that's one of, one of the things that's out there. The reason why this hit. There are a couple. First, firstly, Bongino and Patel, Bongino in particular. But Patel also promoted wide open conspiracy theories about Epstein. The suggestion that there was a shadowy client list. I think Bongino singled out Gates with, with the implication, curiously enough, kind of ignoring Donald Trump's longtime relationship with Epstein, but that this was a Democratic cabal. Biden administration covered this up. And then they get in and they change their tune.
- [09:23]
Sam Stein
Right.
- [09:23]
Glenn Thrush
Okay. Bondi is kind of a fellow traveler. She's a more conventional character. She's kind of riding this wave into power, but she wants to be sort of like a law and order attorney general. And I think what she, her massive miscalculation in walking in the door is she wanted to prove herself to the right wing. She needed to have a demonstration that she was on board with this to deal with the problem that she felt Optically, of her being an establishment character. So she. She parachutes into this meeting of influencers in the Roosevelt Room, and to the surprise of this, was because this was not something that they themselves had expected. She hands out these binders after, on the previous night, promising, quote, a bombshell. I'm sorry, breaking news is the way she put it.
- [10:10]
Sam Stein
Yeah.
- [10:11]
Glenn Thrush
And there wasn't any. It was. There was some flotsam and jetsam. I imagine it added texture to what we knew already. But she knew that the material that she was giving out in the binder was right.
- [10:22]
Sam Stein
But Glenn. So she's. They set up all this stuff. It kind of simmers away, I guess. I just don't understand why they revisited it.
- [10:28]
Glenn Thrush
It.
- [10:29]
Sam Stein
Wouldn't one option just be to be like, or we're done with that and move on? Or was it just too much pressure?
- [10:34]
Glenn Thrush
I think there's too much pressure. And I think, you know, I think the other thing about it that they've learned is, look, the reason we're sitting here. Epstein generates clicks.
- [10:41]
Sam Stein
Yes, he has.
- [10:43]
Glenn Thrush
He. The man has enriched people, has enhanced reputations and provided some of the booster fuel that allowed the at least two of these three individuals to occupy these great positions of power.
- [10:56]
Sam Stein
Right. And I do like your point about how, How Bondi was not a. It's. I think it's worth dwelling on that for a second because Bondi was not the podcast creature. I mean, she was obviously in right wing politics. She was an ally of Trump, but she wasn't going on these podcasts like Patel. But she wasn't hosting a podcast like Bongina was. So maybe I. Are you. Maybe you're hinting at it, but was there a sense from her that, like, she was kind of an odd person out or that she was suffering from imposter syndrome, that she had to get on this? Or is there. Am I reading too much into it?
- [11:25]
Glenn Thrush
She worked the inside game to get this job. Got you okay herself. Look, when they, when they. Not. You remember this? I remember writing about this when they nominated Gates. It was a shock and it was. And it was perceived as like a transitory pick. I think there's even been some reporting and I don't know if we verified it. I don't want to spread rumors that, like Gates himself perhaps knew that this was a way to deal with his lingering investigation at doj, which eventually got dropped. But anyway, like. So she positioned herself intelligently in the wing. She's been in the Trump circle for a while. She worked at America First Legal. She made 2 to 3 million bucks off of Truth Social going public. So the President of the United States has contributed a fairly substantial amount to her personal fortune. Not only that, her brother, Brad Bondi was. Was an attorney involved in that deal and made an untold amount of money. So the connections between Bondi and Trump are inside connections.
- [12:24]
Sam Stein
Right. But the connections are not there between her and Patel and her Bongino. And that's where we get to this current friction. How real is it? I mean, there's obviously all these reports that Bongino's going to quit if she. If Bondi stays around. And apparently that has not happened. But as you understand it, as your reporting indicates, how real are these frictions?
- [12:43]
Glenn Thrush
They're totally real. And I don't think her and Patel are particularly friendly. She's gone out of her way publicly. She keeps calling Patel her close friend. I have no reporting that substantiates that these two are in any way really friendly. In fact, to the contrary. And Bongino, I think that a person close to Bondi the other day said, the bridge is burned. Now, the bridge between Pam Bondi and Dan Bongino is of no concern to the White House. Donald Trump could not care less about any of these relationships. Donald Trump has his own problems. So the notion that, like. So whether or not Pam Bondi wants Dan Bongino to be in that job is frankly not relevant at the moment.
- [13:25]
Sam Stein
Right.
- [13:26]
Glenn Thrush
Because she does not make the decisions.
- [13:28]
Sam Stein
So that's Trump. She.
- [13:30]
Glenn Thrush
I think if Bungee, you know, Bongino. And again, one of the. One of the ambiguities here is how long did Dan Bongino take his personal day? We've been told it either started on Wednesday or it started on Friday. Either way, he did sort of a slow shadow reemergence, was in the office, we're told, on Monday and Tuesday.
- [13:47]
Sam Stein
Right.
- [13:48]
Glenn Thrush
We're kind of hearing he might hang around the general guess, and nobody knows because, as you know, this can change in five minutes. The general guess is they're going to kind of keep him around, maybe move him somewhere else. Maybe he stays, but in a diminished capacity, maybe time.
- [14:04]
Sam Stein
What is the source of his frustration? Precisely.
- [14:07]
Glenn Thrush
This is eaten his bread. Like, Dan Bongino exists because of his street cred with the. Right.
- [14:14]
Sam Stein
Oh, so he's worried about a street kid getting killed. Okay, come on, man.
- [14:17]
Glenn Thrush
Like, I don't think Dan Bongino. I don't think. You know, and again, this is not me. This is not me drawing an assumption. Let's just go by what he has said on the air, which is like, this job is a drag. And he was talking about missing. He was on, like, Fox talking about it.
- [14:33]
Sam Stein
Yeah, he was talking about his marriage, suffering for it.
- [14:36]
Glenn Thrush
But also, like, his old days, like, he was a hero. And now he's like, now, wait a second. I was part of this group of people on the outside who was calling out the establishment. I don't like it when the tables are turned. So I think that's his. And also, you know, I mean, Bongino is known to be. And again, I'm referring to reporting, not my imputation. I'm being careful here. But he has, you know, he has a reputation for being, let's say, a voluble person.
- [15:05]
Sam Stein
Yeah, he's an emotional guy. Not a pejorative about that. I feel like it's fine to be emotional, though, you and I. I'm an emotional guy.
- [15:12]
Glenn Thrush
You are very, very emotional.
- [15:15]
Sam Stein
Let me ask you about Trump and Bondi's relationship. Relationship. I've been struck by how loyal or how much he has stood by her first term Trump. I'm not sure how loyal he will be to his attorney general. And I'm going to throw a theory out at you, and I want you to either, you know, agree with it or not, honestly. But to me, what this signals is that Trump wants an attorney general who is deeply, deeply loyal to him. And that's what he values more than anything else. He went through Bill Barr, obviously. He went through Jeff Sessions. He thought they were turncoats. And even though Bondi's in real hot water and may have stepped in it with the binders, and clearly the Substein thing is just absolutely blowing up, Trump is willing to take that on so long as he has an AG who he can completely and utterly trust.
- [16:04]
Glenn Thrush
Look, I think that's absolutely true. I think there's the added element that, like, he's holding on to cabinet members because he doesn't want to go through confirmations. So Bongino is in an unconfirmed position. So Bongimo is, by definition more disposable than she is. And I think the environment, I'm not going to say, you know, I think people are over, perhaps over reading the impact of this. But my general theory of the case, and I'll put back on my old political hat, all right, we're departing the gravitational pull of Trump's victory, and we are entering the gravitational pull of the midterms. And structurally, regardless of what the ambient, his ambient polling is, or his popularity or his programmatic popularity, just structurally the party out of power has a tremendous advantage. And if you trust people like Steve Bannon, this is exacerbated by the current political climate. It was very noteworthy to me, Sam, that Donald Trump now appears to be focused. For all of his unconventionality and the ways up into American politics, his mind is turning to legacy. And if you look at his unvarnished victory in the Iran, even with questions about how significant that strike was, that was a bold stroke and he appears to have avoided a counter response. And he did what presidents are supposed to do. He leveraged his majority into passing a massive piece of legislation that could potentially have historical implications. Those are two very big legacy victories for any president in their second term.
- [17:41]
Sam Stein
Oh, he's definitely on legacy watch. He's talking nonstop about a Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, that's in his face on Mount Rushmore. That's what he wants. Glenn, only. Yeah.
- [17:50]
Glenn Thrush
What is polling do in the month after this, after Iran and bbb, which are his biggest victories? Probably, arguably, as a president, it's stagnant, totally stagnant. He got no bump from working the conventional thing. What's going on now with the Epstein thing? You're seeing erosion. At least I have seen in two polls over the last couple of days in the very strong support from his base. So he is a guy for whom conventional presidential achievements, they don't resonate with the people.
- [18:21]
Sam Stein
Which is funny that this morning, so we're taping this, it's like 11am on Wednesday. This morning, he put out a bleep where he's just like, to those people who are going to, you know, who are upset over Epstein, I don't want your support. He's just telling these people to go fuck off. And I'm not sure, like, it's kind of a weird thing to watch Trump do that for someone who's always tended so closely to his base. This is quite abnormal for me. Glenn, I only have a minute left of your time, so I want to just ask you, and you, you can be vague about this because I don't.
- [18:50]
Glenn Thrush
Want you to reveal.
- [18:51]
Sam Stein
Well, I do want you reveal, but you can reveal however much you want. What's the one bit of information around the Epstein saga with respect to how it's playing out in doj, that one parcel that you are like, want to know more than anything else a story that you think is untold, that you think the public would just salivate if they learned?
- [19:09]
Glenn Thrush
Well, I don't know. I think the problem is that however one couches the conclusions that were Included in the memo closing the case or even the OIG reports or previous investigations, is, this is such a murky, shadowy world. And Epstein himself, when you divorce this from the politics and DOJ and these institutions, number one, there are real victims here who are having to go through this crap over and over and over again. But also, Epstein was such a shadowy, creepy, duplicitous, scheming character, you really always have to ask yourself and have that caveat, even while you're criticizing, you know, criticizing the excess or rationally analyzing the conspiracy theories. Right. You always wonder if there isn't something sitting around, attached to a folder by a paperclip, like, is there something. Is there something in there that we don't know that will fundamentally rewrite the narrative.
- [20:11]
Sam Stein
Yeah, man. We were talking about that in the office today, because we've been writing about this story a lot, obviously, like everyone else, and we're just sort of like, well, does it kind of die down eventually? How does it. And I think it was Bill Crystal who was like, we don't know what. What could come up. Like, tomorrow, there could be some revelation around these files or around a victim or something, and then suddenly this takes an entirely new turn. I think that's probably why this story has such staying power.
- [20:39]
Glenn Thrush
Is that because the bedrock. Because as you're drilling down the bedrock can't be that Jeffrey Epstein wasn't as bad as you think he was. Right. I mean, that seems like a bottomless pit. So know, the story right now has come to rest on the bedrock of. Well, these are the limits of what Epstein did and who he communicated with. So you can really understand why the conspiracy theories grew. I mean, what we argue as reporters is like, you've got. You've got to make rational conclusions based on the evidence available. But I think, as you said, and as Bill said, it's what. It's the available part. Like, what? Don't.
- [21:17]
Sam Stein
100%.
- [21:18]
Glenn Thrush
Yeah.
- [21:19]
Sam Stein
All right, Glenn. This was a pleasure. Long overdue. We should do it again. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope it was a little bit painful, too, I guess. And for those who watched, thank you for watching us. We'll talk to you soon. Not all meals are created equal. For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time, and lunch doesn't. McDonald's breakfast comes first.