← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
A
Hey guys, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with Congressman Greg Landsman from Cincinnati's Ohio's first District there in Cincinnati. Democratic Congressman. And we're here to talk about something really serious and depressing, which is the abduction of Ukrainian children. But thanks for jumping on, Congressman.
- [00:17]
B
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [00:18]
A
I read the story this morning and I mentioned this on the podcast earlier that I texted you. This cannot be real, because that's kind of how I felt. So I was reading the story that we had a US funded initiative that documented alleged Russian war crimes, including this mass deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. We had had satellite images, et cetera. The researchers at Yale University's Humanitarian Research Lab, kind of funded by a government initiative, had been working on this project. That project was terminated by Peter Morocco, who works for Doge, who is also at the Insurrection in the Capitol, I think. So that's kind of guy we're dealing with. And, and the newest, newest, I guess, item here that you were the lead in writing a letter onto the administration of wanting more information about is that not only did we cancel this program, but that we have now deleted or prevented people from accessing the existing information about the abducted children. So that's my summary. Tell us a little bit more about what the state of play is.
- [01:24]
B
Yeah, so there's two really important facts. One is that there are at least 30,000 children that were stolen from Ukraine. Putin and others stole these children and they have taken them to various places in Belarus or Russia. And two, potentially the only way to get them back is to have the data. Because if you sit down at a negotiating table and you have a list of all of the children which is in this database and satellite imaging to suggest we know in fact where the children are and we've been tracking the children, the odds of getting these children back to their families goes up. Those are two really important facts. Now, as we were getting into this issue and trying to add additional Russian oligarchs to the sanctions list of those being sanctioned, because we're learning more and more about who's taking these children, including Russian oligarchs, we discovered that the system that was tracking all of this on behalf of, of Ukraine was no longer publicly available. And we found out then that the contract was canceled as part of this Doge chaos. So the question now is, does the data exist? Did they destroy it? And the White House has said that it does exist. We don't have confirmation of that. But again, the only thing that matters here and, and truly is Getting these kids back.
- [03:10]
A
Yeah. And so I guess, like, what. What led you to believe that the data might have been just completely deleted.
- [03:19]
B
As we were putting our request to State together to say, look, there are additional people that need to be sanctioned.
- [03:26]
A
Right.
- [03:26]
B
And that this needs to be a priority, priority in any ceasefire negotiations? We wanted to make sure that our data, our numbers were accurate, so we went to the database and then it just disappeared.
- [03:41]
A
And they also blocked, I guess the data was supposed to be shared with our counterparties in Europe. And the State Department blocked that.
- [03:50]
B
Correct. So it's either a mistake that it was one of the trillion mistakes that Dosh has made, catastrophic, potentially, or, you know, there. There's something more sinister going on. Hopefully it's not the latter.
- [04:07]
A
Has Rubio weighed in on this at all?
- [04:10]
B
I don't believe the Secretary of State has weighed in. I know that the White House said today during the. Or at least I was told that during the briefing it came up, and that they were going to inquire, that they did not know, they did not seem to believe it was done strategically, and that the data may still exist. So if we have any hope of getting all of these children back, we need the data. We need the entirety of the database.
- [04:43]
A
You kind of alluded to this, the top. So now we're going into these negotiations, I guess, in Saudi Arabia, another round of negotiations, if you want to call them, that surrender theater between this administration and the Russians. And this is like, you know, Trump liked to talk about the cards so much, and who has all the cards and leverage and all this with Zelensky in the White House. Like, if we have evidence of 30,000 kids, like, that is an important part that should be or could be an important part of this negotiation. Right? Like where we're going to have this negotiation where Russia is going to get part of Ukraine. They've got to give stuff back. I mean, the 30,000 kids would be a good start, but if we don't have the information, then that. That's not difficult.
- [05:23]
B
I mean, I. I think this is going to be a moment of truth for a lot of folks on the other side of the aisle and. And for the President, these children have been trafficked. And, you know, this is something that we hear has to be a bipartisan issue. Of course it is. When you get down to, you know, actual voters, it doesn't matter if you're a Republican or a Democrat, an independent, unaffiliated, uninterested in politics, the idea of stealing other people's children and not Giving them back is morally reprehensible. And so I think this is going to require the president to stand up to the folks who made this mistake. Let's hope it was a mistake, and do everything in our power to recover the database and use that data as leverage in the negotiations to ensure that every one of the 30,000 children is returned.
- [06:24]
A
Have you heard it all from any of your QAnon colleagues on this? Marjorie Dale Greene, Lauren Boebert, some of the other members of Congress. They're very concerned about the imaginary child trafficking that QAnon the Q was supposedly uncovering in the basement of pizza parlors. Have they expressed any concern about the Ukrainian children?
- [06:41]
B
I don't know yet.
- [06:43]
A
Okay.
- [06:43]
B
We'll be back in, you know, D.C. on Monday or Tuesday. And, you know, I thought maybe one.
- [06:49]
A
Of them had sent you a text like I did. Saw the story this morning. They have a deep, sincere concern about child trafficking, maybe.
- [06:55]
B
Lauren Boebert, it is legitimate. I'm sorry, there's nothing legitimate about it. It is a legitimate example of the trafficking of children. And because of this partnership, public, private sector partnership with state and these entities, using satellite imaging and biometrics, they kept an eye on all of the children so that when this war came to an end, every one of those children could be identified, placed, and returned.
- [07:30]
A
Putting aside just this element of it, what did you make of the Trump Putin concept? Call readout yesterday.
- [07:36]
B
I mean, I'm not an expert in this. I care deeply about what happens to kids and here and, you know, and globally. And so I picked up on this and, and, and really do want to be part of making sure it's at the top of the list and these, these families get their kids back. But I, you know, I, I, I continue to be very worried that this president does not have an appropriate relationship with Vladimir Putin. And it may cost the Ukrainians a lot, if not everything, and it may end up costing us a lot. It is not the relationship that anyone else that is approaching this in a normal way would have. So I thought it was not promising, but hopefully we get to a resolution. But that resolution does have to ensure that Putin doesn't ever do this again.
- [08:34]
A
Yeah, it's hard to imagine not giving us thought resolution, but who knows? Hope springs eternal. But just one other thing before I lose you. Obviously there's a lot of conversation right now about what the Democrats should be doing. Do more. I'm in the chorus, the do more chorus. But there are limits. When Republicans have control of both chambers of commerce and the White House, that this big fight that you guys in the House nearly unanimously opposed, the adjusted continuing resolution, whatever you want to call that, the budget, and then the Senate allowed it to pass by not filibustering it. Obviously, this is one thing that you're doing right now, drawing attention to a specific issue where this administration is acting improperly or botch something. We'll see. What are other things you think Democrats should be, can and should be doing right now?
- [09:33]
B
I agree that this is the fight of our lives and that all of us should approach it that way. You know, yes. You have to be strategic and what you fight about and how you fight. I was in Selma last weekend and for the first time ever, walked across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. And it was one of the most remarkable experiences of my life. And you're. You're sort of taken back to those scenes in 1965 when Lewis and King, others, tried to cross that bridge. And, you know, when Lewis did it on Bloody Sunday, you know, the whole world watched as they were beaten. You know, Lewis skull fractured. And then the second time King sat down and prayed. And, and then they ultimately, on the third time, marched to Montgomery. I mention it because I think we're in a similar moment where we need that kind of heroics and those kinds of leaders. I also think that the way in which they demonstrate it is something that we have to start thinking about instead of just screaming and yelling and protesting, that there is that people start marching and doing it in a way that. That has that powerfulness associated with the silence or the prayers as opposed to just, you know, having some crazy chant or, you know, some sign. I do think that this is one of those moments where Democrats have to be part of the groundswell, and I think it is becoming a groundswell of anger and frustration, but to do it in a way that attracts the attention of those that need to be paying attention to this. And, and so I think looking back to what they did in, in the civil rights movement and the power, the way King fought is something we should consider today. And then I'm. I'll release in the next couple weeks, not that anyone cares, but a, but a vision for where I think we have to go as a party. And, and to suggest that we should do what Republicans did in 1994, which was to lay out a full agenda and vision. That was the Contract for America. It was 10 bills, and everyone running for office signed onto it. And I think that's something we have to do again.
- [11:55]
A
Right. We'll keep an eye out for that contract Last thing, though, just going back to the protest, part of the problem is there's so much happening, you know, and I do think there's like an overwhelming sense of like, people haven't like found the one thing to grab onto. Obviously we're talking about this issue of the Ukrainian children, but what about domestically? Is there, is there something you can envision being the thing that is the spark for those kind of protests?
- [12:18]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a combination of chaos and corruption and costs. Right. And, you know, not to be cute, but it is, there's, it's pure chaos. And that chaos is fueled by this corruption that everyone should be clear eyed about in terms of not just Musk, but all of these big donors who have paid for the influence they now have and they're wreaking havoc on our lives. And in addition to all of the harm that's being done, they're going to kill the economy and costs are going to go up. So I don't know what it is ultimately, but I do think it's in that space. And, and instead of talking about, you know, Elon as some unelected billionaire, it's that he's, he's, he's, he's a, he's a donor. He's one of the biggest, if not the largest donor donors that gives to Republicans and Trump, and that's why he's doing what he's doing. They, you know, he paid for it. And I think most Americans, including a lot of Republicans, want clean government. And this is blatant corruption.
- [13:31]
A
All right, that's Congressman Greg Landsman from Ohio's first district of Cincinnati. I guess we'll be talking again. I'll keep an eye out for your contract and we'll have you back on. All right, brother.
- [13:40]
B
Thanks.