Republicans Just Handed Black Voter Organizers Their Best Message Ever (w/ Joshua Doss)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Republicans Just Handed Black Voter Organizers Their Best Message Ever"

Bulwark Takes | Host: Sam Stein | Guest: Joshua Doss (Hit Strategies)
Date: May 15, 2026 | Total Content Duration: ~28 minutes (after ads)

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Overview

In this episode, The Bulwark’s Sam Stein is joined by Joshua Doss, a senior research manager at Hit Strategies and an expert on Black voter motivation and Democratic strategy. They discuss the swift redistricting moves by Southern Republican legislatures following the Supreme Court’s rollback of Voting Rights Act protections, the effects on Black political sentiment and mobilization, and how Democratic organizers can reconnect with and re-motivate various segments of Black voters. Doss breaks down his research on four distinct "voter buckets" and explores effective strategies for engagement in today’s fragmented media and political environment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rapid Redistricting in the South

[01:00–04:41]

• Supreme Court & Aftermath: The Supreme Court’s gutting of the Voting Rights Act led to virtually overnight efforts by Republican-led Southern states to dismantle Black-majority districts.

• Notable Surprise: Doss was particularly surprised by the speed in states like Louisiana and South Carolina (even with legendary figures like Rep. Jim Clyburn affected).

• Quote:

  “Louisiana surprised me because they already had the election. And… South Carolina did. It did surprise me because Jim Clyburn is like a legend in that state…”
  – Joshua Doss, 02:19

• Political vs. Emotional Impacts: While these moves are classic hardball politics, their psychological impact on Black voters is mixed—some may be enraged, others dispirited.

2. Mobilization Amid Disillusionment

[03:33–05:39]

• This perceived disenfranchisement could produce both anger and increased mobilization, especially with messaging that highlights Republicans “literally taking away your access to resources by way of your vote.”
• Doss is cautiously optimistic that this anger will translate into voter mobilization, even if some districts are heavily gerrymandered.
• Quote:

  “There’s just, like, really good messaging for anybody who wanted to mobilize them to say, they are literally taking away your access to resources by way of your vote.”
  – Joshua Doss, 03:33

3. The Power and Limits of Mass Movements

[05:39–08:13]

• Civil Rights Parallels: Doss is headed to Alabama, inspired by activists like Rep. Justin Pearson:

  “Whatever you think you would have been doing during the civil rights movement, look at what you’re doing now. That’s what you would have been doing back then.”
  – Joshua Doss, 05:44

• Modern Challenges and Opportunities:

  • Mass mobilization is still possible, but the fragmented, hyper-targeted digital media landscape both helps (speed, volume) and hinders (lack of unified voices).
  • Viral tactics like targeted boycotts are being discussed (e.g., Black athletes avoiding SEC schools in protest).

4. The "Four Buckets" of Black Voters

[13:18–18:32]

• Doss identifies four key voter segments based on motivations and views of power:

  a. Legacy Civil Rights Voters

  • Older, deeply believe in the power of their vote.
  • Highly reliable and predictable in turnout.

  b. Secular Progressives

  • Around 12% of Black America; mainly Black women.
  • See policies as a “shield” providing autonomy and protection.
  • Most educated segment.

  c. Next Generation Traditionalists

  • Drawn to order and hierarchy over religious content itself.
  • Supportive of policies promising stability—even those from the right.
  • Sometimes resistant to rapid social changes (gender, sexuality) due to a desire for order.

  d. The Rightfully Cynical

  • Least likely to vote; fundamentally skeptical of all institutions.

  • See politics as "power begets power," not true bottom-up change.

  • Hardest to reach, but most loyal if persuaded.

  • Quote:

    “The system is working exactly as intended, and we need to break it.”
    – Joshua Doss, 23:32

5. Messaging, Culture, and the Importance of Meeting Voters Where They Are

[18:32–22:21]

• Culture-First Engagement:

  • Political news won’t reach cynical/non-political audiences directly.
  • Use pop culture, sports, food, and other interests as entry points to political discourse.
  • Example: Podcasts like Joe Rogan reach young men where they already are.
  • Quote:

    “You have to reach them through a cultural lens.”
    – Sam Stein, 21:36

• Tailoring Messages: Each segment requires a distinct approach. Messages calling for the “system to be broken” may unify otherwise disparate groups around a fundamental desire for radical change.

6. Autonomy, Individualism, and the "Hard Work" Narrative

[25:21–27:49]

• Democrats’ reluctance to talk about hard work lets Republicans control the narrative (e.g., “bootstraps” rhetoric).
• Research shows hard work is valued as a form of love and commitment in the Black community.
  • Policies should be marketed as both rewarding and respecting hard work.
• Quote:

  “People are willing to hear stories about competitive individualism and bootstrapism, but that is not necessarily how they default see it...Hard work as a love language.”
  – Joshua Doss, 26:21

7. Implementation Matters: Messaging Alone Isn’t Enough

[27:49–28:50]

• Effective engagement isn’t just about message—voters also want clear implementation plans and proof that promises can be delivered.
• Example: Republican Project 2025 is praised for showing not just policy, but how it would be executed, which helps overcome cynicism.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Civil Rights Action Today:

  "Whatever you think you would have been doing during the civil rights movement, look at what you’re doing now. That’s what you would have been doing back then."
  – Joshua Doss (05:44)

• On Cynicism:

  “The system is working exactly as intended, and we need to break it.”
  – Joshua Doss (23:32)

• On Messaging Fatigue & Power:

  “There are moments when we’re trying to mobilize people to vote and they’re pointing at something that they know is happening. And for a second, we pretend like it’s not. We’re like, no, you can vote your way out of this problem. And they’re like, stop lying to me.”
  – Joshua Doss (12:30)

• On the Importance of Culture-First Engagement:

  “You have to reach them through a cultural lens. We want to do a food show because I just feel like people like food content a lot...and when you get them into the show, then you can have a political conversation.”
  – Sam Stein (21:36)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:00 — Sam Stein introduces Joshua Doss; discussion on rapid redistricting
• 03:33 — Impact of disenfranchisement on Black voter emotions and mobilization
• 05:44 — Inspiration from civil rights activists; Doss heading to Alabama
• 07:17 — Mass mobilization in the digital era: opportunities and barriers
• 09:38 — Doss to give a speech in Alabama, civil disobedience planned
• 10:23 — Doss: “I do not know” concrete answers for aggrieved voters; hopelessness
• 13:18–18:32 — Deep dive into the four Black voter segments (“buckets”)
• 20:06 — How to reach the “rightfully cynical” via sports, food, and pop culture (not politics first)
• 23:32 — Describing the core perspective of the most cynical voters: “The system is working as intended…we need to break it.”
• 25:21 — The power and pitfalls of “hard work” messaging for Democrats
• 27:49 — The challenge of implementation, not just messaging, for overcoming cynicism
• 28:50 — Closing thanks and outro

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Summary Takeaways

• Rapid, targeted Republican redistricting post-VRA has created both outrage and demoralization among Black voters—presenting huge challenges and opportunities for organizers.
• Effective mobilization requires nuanced understanding and targeted engagement with varying segments of Black voters—especially reaching the cynical and disillusioned.
• Cultural entry points (food, sports, pop culture) are vital for reaching otherwise unreachable audiences.
• There’s a deep hunger not just for persuasive messaging but for credible implementation—action over words.
• Messaging around autonomy, individual dignity, and respect for hard work can re-engage estranged working-class and Black voters, but only if coupled with real, visible results.

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For listeners working on political organizing, progressive strategy, or simply seeking to understand the nuanced perspectives within Black political life in 2026, this episode is a must-hear (or read).

Transcript

[Joshua Doss]

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[Sam Stein]

All right, hey everyone, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark, and I am here with Joshua Doss. Joshua is a senior research manager at Hit Strategies, kind of an expert up and coming expert. I don't want to give away how young you are on all things about Democratic strategy, but he's written and talked extensively about the black vote and what's motivating black voters in the modern political age. And there's some fascinating stuff that he had in a lecture that I watched that he gave at Harvard and also that he talked about in some recent interviews. Look, I want to start with sort of what's happening right now, which is redistricting and your, your posterior political strategist. You've done a lot of commentary on this and research into this. And after the Supreme Court basically gutted the Voting Rights act, you know, a bunch of Southern states move with incredible speed to just get rid of their majority black districts. I don't know if I should have been surprised by how rapidly it happened. But you know, someone who's been observing this stuff, were you taken aback at all by how rapidly it happened?

[Joshua Doss]

No, not at all.

[Sam Stein]

You didn't think there was any moment where they'd be like, okay, we're gonna like, you know, we're in some cases, we've already had like votes happen and we need to like hit the pause button or.

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah, I guess you're right. Louisian surprised me because they already had the election. And I'll also say South Carolina did. It did surprise me because Jim Clyburn is like a legend in that state. And you know, you did have a couple of Republicans in the, in the state Senate that came out and said no we shouldn't do this. But, you know, the State House is under a lot of pressure. They don't want to, they don't want to happen to them. What just happened in Indiana, where Trump kind of comes in and primaries a bunch of them, and as of yesterday, it sounds like they're calling a special session to get rid of his seat. So that did surprise me. Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Just for the context, we're recording this on Thursday, May 14th. It's like, noon. And it is true, the, the South Carolina State House does appear to be calling a special section where they just need a majority vote to cut his district out, Clyburn's district out. Obviously, this is like, crass politics. They just want as many House seats as humanly possible. Who, um, what do you think it means, obviously, beyond the sort of political outcomes, but in terms of, like, the sort of emotional mental outcomes for the black voters in these states. Right. I mean, on one hand it could be enraging, and on the other hand it could be dispiriting. I imagine it's going to be a bit of both.

[Joshua Doss]

I think it'll be a lot of both. You know, President Trump and his administration already were deeply unpopular, not just with black Americans, but with everybody. And I think that they already probably had a little bit of an incentive with gas being up 40%. Right. Average over $4. But now there's just, like, really good messaging for anybody who wanted to mobilize them to say they are literally taking away your access to resources by way of your vote. And so I think it. I think it actually will have an effect that will end up with people, more people being mobilized, registering to vote. And the question is, what district doesn't matter?

[Sam Stein]

Say, like, if it's a, if it's an R 15 district.

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Like, does it matter?

[Joshua Doss]

Does it matter? And that's the real question. Some of these. I, I was talking to a buddy of mine who works in the, in the Florida state legislator, and he thinks I'm crazy. Some of these new districts, I think, are more competitive than the Republicans think, though. Like, some of them, I'm like, that's all relative.

[Sam Stein]

Right. Of course they're more competitive, but you need to be, like, within a certain margin for it to be realistic.

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah, I mean, some of them are completely out of reach. Some of them, I don't think are as far out of reach as some folks might think. Especially when you look at, you know, where the angst and the anger towards the Republican Party already is, where that baseline generic vote is. Trump has lowered that for the generic Republican. And then we have candidate effects. Candidate effects are used like plus or minus 3, 3 percentage points, meaning, like the world's greatest Republican is only going to perform either 3 percentage points better or worse than where generic Republican is because midterms are really nationalized elections. And then I'm looking at some of these districts and I'm like, I see they drew this new area, but there's still a lot of Democrats and black people in Florida. So I don't think it's going to be enough to like undo all the damage. But some of them might be still pretty competitive.

[Sam Stein]

You're going to Alabama, right?

[Joshua Doss]

I am, yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Why

[Joshua Doss]

I'm going to Alabama because I was, I was talking to Representative Justin Pearson from Tennessee and he said a phrase that I think changed my whole perspective. He said, whatever you think you would have been doing during the civil rights movement, look at what you're doing now. That's what you would have been doing back then. And I was like, I gotta go, I gotta go. I got a bunch of stuff going on. But I was like, you know, yeah, we like to look back at the history books and say, I would have been, I would have been. We're in it now. They're bringing back Jim Crow style legislation and, and governance. I mean, so that's, that's where I'm going.

[Sam Stein]

It does kind of get to something that, and I don't know any of this because I'm not in it, but like mass mobilization around these types of stuff, these types of moments, you know, can you do, can you have a version of what took place in the, in the 60s right now in this modern political climate. And we're going to get into it more because I, I really was sort of moved by how you kind of had four different buckets of voters and voter approaches in your Harvard lecture. And we'll get into that. But just on the sort of larger question of our mass mobilization movements, mass demonstration movements possible in this modern era, what is your sort of initial take? I guess you're going to have to find out when you go to Alabama. But what's your initial take?

[Joshua Doss]

I think they're very possible. I think we just have to be organized, you know, And I think, I think that globalization and the introduction of this mass distribution of videos and media in our pockets, I think provides some help and it also provides some barriers. I think it is easier to coalesce around a singular voice, maybe when you don't have that thing in your hand telling you you should listen to this person. That person, that person, that person, that person, that person. But also, distribution can be quick, and it can be, you know, vast. Like we saw during the Black Lives Matter movement, people were protesting in different countries as a result of what they were able to see on their phone. So I think that we're gonna have to fight the technosphere, but I think it's very possible.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. And there's already talks about, you know, can you do sort of targeted boycotting? I saw it going around virally like, black athletes shouldn't be, you know, going to SEC school.

[Joshua Doss]

I've been on that one.

[Sam Stein]

Is that real? You've been on that one?

[Joshua Doss]

I've been saying that one since the revert, since Dobbs.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, yeah. Make your case. Make your case.

[Joshua Doss]

Well, well, actually, it started. It started about abortion. I was just saying, like, I wonder if young women who are entering college, these are the time periods where they become more exploratory with their, you know, relationship.

[Sam Stein]

You can say they're having sex.

[Joshua Doss]

Yes, they're having sex, you know, or they're. They're going to start having sex and they're going to explore there, man. Okay, okay. Let me. Let, um. I'm like, will they want to go to schools in red states? Like, you know, as a pollster, I'm frequently studying public opinion, so I started asking those questions in my surveys and my focus groups, like, does the Dobbs. This is a decision make you not want to go to Alabama? Right, right. And then that kind of morphed into me being like, these black athletes should just stop going to SEC schools. And so I don't think it's going to happen. But I've been on it from the. From the perspective of it should happen.

[Sam Stein]

Well, it's not gonna happen because Lane Kiffin's out there being like, LSU is the beacon of civil rights progress.

[Joshua Doss]

Baton Rouge.

[Sam Stein]

This is where it all happens.

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

So what are you gonna do in Alabama?

[Joshua Doss]

I have been told I have a speech. I don't know how long it will be, but apparently that'll be on Saturday. And then, you know, there's gonna be lots of conversations about what. What it means for us to move forward in this era. I think there's going to be a prayer. I think we're going to march, engage in some civil disobedience, and hopefully, you know, make some noise.

[Sam Stein]

Let's say you're just. Let's say some, you know, persons out there and, you know, a political agnostic person in the south, maybe it's Alabama, who's watching this? And they're upset by what the state House has done and they're upset by the Supreme Court decision and they're just looking for some concrete actions to take. What do they do?

[Joshua Doss]

I do not know.

[Sam Stein]

Isn't that the problem?

[Joshua Doss]

That is the problem, right?

[Sam Stein]

It feels a little hopeless, right?

[Joshua Doss]

It feels very hopeless. And that's not something I say lightly. As a person who works in this and studies this, I would love to know the answers to that. And even preparing to talk to you, I'm like, there are so many dead ends right now. It becomes difficult to even sound uplifting and persuasive. I don't know the answer to that question.

[Sam Stein]

It kind of gets to the point you were making in some of these speeches and articles that you've done, which is there's not really political power, there's just power. Right. And can you just unpack that and what you meant by that?

[Joshua Doss]

This perspective comes from a lot of the, what people in the politics world would call disaffected black voters, low information black voters. We spend time thinking about ways to market political power to them. But from what they've told me and others in focus groups is that political outcomes are not a consequence of political power. Political power is a consequence of power. Donald Trump is powerful first and then he chose politics. JB Pritzker was powerful first and he chose politics. Why is that important? It means that in their worldview, much of what we're talking about as it pertains to political power is top down and not bottom up. Now I want it to be clear to say that that is not necessarily the case, but that is how they see it in most cases. And so for us to have, let's think, go ahead.

[Sam Stein]

Can we linger on that? Like, what's the most recent bottom up exercise of political power that they may have witnessed?

[Joshua Doss]

Right, Yeah, I, I said, could you name it? I don't know, it's like, no, I said this in the speech. I was like, are they so wrong?

[Sam Stein]

Well, I'm trying to think about, like, yeah, I'm trying to think about Obama. Like, I'm not. Maybe because it was grassroots oriented, but even then he was a sitting U. S. Senator and, and you know, president, Harvard Law Review, like there was he, he definitely had endorsements from high up.

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah. And what's more is even outside of any particular candidate, you and I, people who work in this realm, we know how much of politics is bought and sold, bought and paid for. We know what money is doing in politics. And so there are moments when we're trying to mobilize people to vote and they're pointing at something that they know is happening. And for a second, we pretend like it's not. We're like, no, you can vote your way out of this problem. And they're like, stop lying to me. Right. I. I see it just like you see it. And I think that our messages have to incorporate that factor as well.

[Sam Stein]

But that suggests that they have to be convinced on a fundamental level that there is power in organizing, that there is power in collective action, and that they don't see it yet.

[Joshua Doss]

Yes, it does. And that is why in that research, we segmented black voters by the different ways that they see power.

[Sam Stein]

Let's go through it. Okay?

[Joshua Doss]

You.

[Sam Stein]

You set it up perfectly. So there's four buckets. Why don't you go through them?

[Joshua Doss]

Yes. So first we had the legacy civil rights voter. They're kind of the voter that we think about. They, for the most part, do see power as something that exists, like from within their vote. The majority of them are a bit older. And so when you tell them that their vote is in their power, they believe it and they act. And they're mostly black seniors. They turn out to vote. And we know who they're going to vote for. Right. They're highly reliable. Then we have 12% of America, of black America, which kind of fits into a segment we call the secular progressive. And the majority of them are black women. And they see power as a shield. They have had to operate autonomously under the patriarchal systems and racism. And so they don't have the luxury of believing that any of these systems are going to propel them in life. But what power looks like is something that can shield them as they propel themselves.

[Sam Stein]

Like, what's an example of that?

[Joshua Doss]

All of the examples are the same. We have the same laws, the same legislation. All of these things are very popular. We're just talking about how we market them to people. Right. And so by that, maybe coverage by way of legislation that protects them and their bodies, coverage by way of increasing their wages, all of these things have to be told to them as a shield so that they can be the. There's a lot of autonomy that they wanna have in their experience with power. You are the person that can push yourself, propel yourself forward. But what power looks like is something that protects you as you do that for yourself. Does that make sense?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. It's interesting because oftentimes Democrats talk about legislation as things that enable you to do Something bigger or better. And you're kind of framing it differently, which is something that allows you to be autonomous, protects you from some outside forces.

[Joshua Doss]

I think that this is something that the Republican right does really well, actually, is they talk about agency and autonomy.

[Sam Stein]

I was going to get into that, too. Let's go through the last two buckets.

[Joshua Doss]

Well, I mean, like, I'm curious to see your thoughts because, like, this is something that we've kind of autonomy and

[Sam Stein]

agency is incredibly important. And individualism, I feel like gets lost here, but we got two more buckets. Next generation traditionalists. Let's do that one.

[Joshua Doss]

Yes. So our next generation traditionalists, they're extremely high in religiosity. Extremely high. And so a lot of times when we're trying to market to them, people think that the group that performs religion will win them over. But what we found in our focus groups is that it's actually not so much religion that they connect to. It is their. Their relationship with order. They like the order and the neatness that religion that the religious hierarchies give them. Right. And there's even a predictability in religion that they resonate with.

[Sam Stein]

There is this kind of misconception around, like, criminal justice reform, for instance. And I talked to Clyburn about this because we were talking. I remember talking to Clyburn about the 94 crime bill, and he's like, I was for it. He's like, I wanted the order. I wanted the police on the streets. And a lot of black voters were very supportive of more cops. Yes, sentencing laws were maybe an issue, but, like, we wanted it. And I wonder if that's what we're talking about, kind of a version of that with next generation traditionalists. They like the order. They don't want the chaos. They're comfortable with maybe a little bit more firm hand from the state because it gives them some structure.

[Joshua Doss]

Everything but that. Even that last part, I guess. No, you know what? I would agree with that last part. First of all, we have had a collective amnesia about how the 94 crime bill came over. About, like, sure, we have not been talking as much about how some legacy black organizations supported it. Right. And so that's a fair conversation. And Clyburn being honest in that regard. But yes, it is exactly that. It's the idea that there is. And look, this even goes into how they see gender and sexuality. Right. They are people who particularly will vote for a Democrat. But if you start asking them about non binary folks, transgender folks, these things don't feel orderly to them. And so when their brains begin to reject that and they speak out loud, you have a left side of the aisle that says, like, are you not on our side, actually? And they're like, there's not order in this. And so anytime somebody can present something, a policy piece under the guise of it, it will increase order. It'll make their lives more orderly. They're more likely to support it, even if it's something that's kind of like right leaning.

[Sam Stein]

Whereas the secular progressive crew would be more comfortable with the 9 non binary crowd.

[Joshua Doss]

For sure. For sure. Yes. I'll also say that the secular progressive group is the most educated group. They're the most likely to be degree educated. And we, you know, we kind of see how progressive academic spaces can stretch people's brains in that matter. And then we have.

[Sam Stein]

My favorite group.

[Joshua Doss]

Is this actually your favorite group?

[Sam Stein]

I'm with you.

[Joshua Doss]

Well, actually, the rightfully cynical. So the rightfully cynical, they actually are my favorite group.

[Sam Stein]

Why?

[Joshua Doss]

They don't vote. But. And they don't. They don't like politics. They are. They're Stephen A. Smith. Like, that's what Stephen A. Sounds like when a rightfully cynical person

[Sam Stein]

just might run for president.

[Joshua Doss]

You know, they just might run for President if they get enough prominence in their voice. Like when a rightfully cynical person gets introduced to politics, they sound like Stephen A. Smith. They can be convinced.

[Sam Stein]

We should pause for a second and just let the viewers know that you were just on, or not just on a couple months ago on Stephen A. Smith. Go watch. It's on YouTube.

[Joshua Doss]

It was, it was. It was a time. Yes, I think. Yeah. Anyway. But no, they really are my favorite group because they remind me so much of my family, honestly, my brothers. And in their perspective, they are where that whole thought kind of comes from, of power. Power begets power. Power is power. They are the quickest to try to see through institutions. They're the furthest from trusting institutions and you can't. And they're also the hardest to reach. But when you do reach them, they are of the most loyal. Once they have the information.

[Sam Stein]

How do you reach them then? Because if they're so cynical about, they're like, ah, the franchise doesn't matter. It doesn't. Who cares if I vote? Everything's gonna be the same. We always get these promises. No one ever delivers. Like, how do you possibly reach someone like that?

[Joshua Doss]

The first problem is that people aren't even, you know, in the world of technology, people aren't even on, like in the right places of the algorithms to Reach them online.

[Sam Stein]

They're not going to be fed political content.

[Joshua Doss]

No. And so the first thing you have to do is be culture first to reach them. You reach them. And this is what the right is doing through a lot of, like, sports betting and like all these other, like, auxiliary fields that young men are really interested in. You know, this is the Joe Rogan, like, e group of people who, you know, I kind of watched the left, like, misdiagnosed Joe Rogan. They were like, oh, people are on there to hear about politics. Like, no, they're not. They're on there. Listen to Joe Rogan talk about what if a lion fought a gorilla in the jungle, and then they're going to catch some misinformation about abortion on the way there. Right.

[Sam Stein]

Like, it's a three hour podcast. Yeah. So you're going to get. You're not there for the politics. You're there.

[Joshua Doss]

Oh, have you. Have you seen. Have you watched.

[Sam Stein]

I watch Rogan for sure. By watching two times speed, because I don't have three hours to spare.

[Joshua Doss]

You actually can learn a lot. I mean, like, I think they've done a better job of communicating with young men than like any other group in the last, like five, six years, you know.

[Sam Stein]

Well, my big. My big thing. And so this is. I'm probably giving away the star too much here, but like at the Bulwark, you know, we're constantly thinking about ways that we can try to reach non political audiences. Right?

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

And people just. The assumption is that they'd be fine with political news if we gave it to them, but you can't give them the news through, like a political lens. You have to reach them through a cultural lens. So we're like obsessed. We've been talking about we want to do a food show because I just feel like people like food content a lot.

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

So we want to do a show where people are cooking and like, eating shit and they'll go there for the recipes and for the, like, history of the restaurant and things like that. And when you get them into the show, then you can have a political conversation.

[Joshua Doss]

Yes.

[Sam Stein]

Got to get them in.

[Joshua Doss]

Got to be culture first. For sure. Yes, I agree. And so the only other thing I'll say about. About this group, and this is, this is the part that makes them my favorite. And honestly, Zora Momdani kind of hit this message really well is.

[Sam Stein]

Can I just say, Zoron did a lot of food content. He went around New York. Oh, my God. He went around New York City eating all this different Ethnic food. That was his thing. He did the halal food truck.

[Joshua Doss]

I remember. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

The reason people liked it is because they wanted to see the halal food. And then they was talking about how much it cost.

[Joshua Doss]

This is a good. I never thought we got to start doing some of these in focus groups. But the one thing I was gonna say about them, that permeates throughout all of the segments and probably is permeating throughout all of, like, the bottom half of Millennials and all of Gen Z is the center of their politics. They believe not that. And what we've been saying for a long time is, the system is broken. We need to fix it. They believe the system is working exactly as intended, and we need to break it. Okay. And when you start talking to them about breaking things, you get them. They're here for that. They're here to talk about what needs to be broken. Once again, are they so wrong? We watch the legislative systems uphold things like Jim Crow and the war on drugs and all this stuff. Right. And so as long as we're talking about building, as we're breaking, you can kind of catch them. And that's true about a lot, like, almost all of the separation.

[Sam Stein]

All right, so let's apply this to the modern moment where it's like, how do you get back at the predominantly Southern states that are doing this type of redistricting? Now, I know there is definitely blue states that are doing their version of it, but I'm just trying to narrow focus on what's happened in the south for a moment. And it seems like there's not a unifying message to get all four of these groups, because you can tell the legacy civil rights movers, hey, like, you know, you need to demonstrate and organize. You can tell the secular progressives, hey, like, you need to, like, get to the ballot box and vote. And you could tell the next generation traditionalists. I don't even know what you would tell them. But the rightfully cynical people, you would have to be like, the system needs to be absolutely torn down. And that might motivate them. But those are three very distinct messages, right?

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah. Well, that's why I like that last one. The system needs to be torn down because it's kind of permeates throughout all of the other groups. Like, it's the. It's the one mindset that all of those groups kind of agree with. The legacy civil rights voters were the last ones that we could get to kind of hop on board with that. But they do come from people who broke rules. Right. They come from a generation that had to break rules. And so it's in there. But yeah, I mean, I know you talked a little bit about the blue states that are trying to do the same thing. I would imagine. I haven't done research on this with the segments, but I would imagine those are the type of things that would really rile them up as like us start talking about a what, 52, 0 California map? I don't know how many.

[Sam Stein]

I think it's roughly that.

[Joshua Doss]

Yeah, 52 and 0. Kind of like a 14, 15 and oh, Illinois, like let's play ball. That type of message I think would work well with all of these groups right now.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, I want to close on this idea of autonomy and individualism. I read your Dean magazine piece and from July 2023. Okay. And I just want to read a portion of it because you're talking about how to reach working class voters. You write this. So how do we reconnect with these working class voters? We must begin by highlighting all the ways our policies respect and reward hard work and contribution. Democrats have been terrified to talk about hard work due to the outstanding job Republicans have done, radicalizing the conversation. For years, Republicans have tried to make hard work about competitive individualism, zero sum games and bootstrapism, all while creating tax cuts that allow the richest Americans to compound their wealth. Yes, that last part is true and extracted from working class labor. But that is true. I mean it is about, hey, work hard, play by the rules, you'll be fine. And Democrats don't really talk in those terms. And maybe that's the big problem here.

[Joshua Doss]

I think that's a massive problem. We did a big study with the Winning Jobs narrative group. Bobby Clark is a great researcher. He led it. I was a part of it. And that is what we just, we wanted to dissect is people's relationship with hard work. And we learned that like that was the left, the left's hesitancy to talk about it was leaving that very core and central value vulnerable to be weaponized by the right. People are willing to hear stories about competitive individualism and bootstrapism, but that is not necessarily how they default. See it. What we were seeing in the focus groups is a lot of folks just see hard work as a love language. That's how they tell their kids that they love them. That's how they tell their family that they're willing to provide for them because they're going to get up early and put that work in. And we are talking about all the ways that government can reward hard work, Be that social safety net programs, be that lowering costs, increasing the minimum wage. You can reach a lot of the working class people that we lost in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin.

[Sam Stein]

Do you think that it's achievable when, you know, like we were talking about? I mean, I think one of the problem here is you can have a great message and I think you can have a finely tailored message, you can have a focus group message, but it's really hard to reach people in a sort of effective way these days, especially with how social media is kind of bifurcated our media consumption habits. So, like, what's the best way to go about doing it?

[Joshua Doss]

I think Gretchen Wimmer is doing a great job of what we're talking. Right. What does she do? I think her approach has. Well, first off, this is a messaging and a governing problem, right? Like, we have to acknowledge that, like, good bad governance cannot. Like good messaging can't cover up bad, bad governance. So we have to have people who can actually follow through on what they're doing. But I take a lot of lessons from Project 2025. Product 2025 was basically the Republican right saying we don't just have policies, we have implementation strategies. And that cuts through a lot of the cynicism. There's a wall of disillusionment and cynicism that we see. A lot of people in surveys say, even if I heard this message coming from a Democrat, I don't think that they can get it done. Right. And so that was a good show of like, this is how we'll get it done. I think things like that are really effective. And the fact that we don't have one right now heading into the midterms, heading into.

[Sam Stein]

There's people working. There's people working.

[Joshua Doss]

I'd love to see it.

[Sam Stein]

You know, we'll see what comes out of those discussions. All right, man, look, thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. I would love to have you back on when you get back from Alabama, if your game.

[Joshua Doss]

For sure. Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, I'm no Stephen A.

[Joshua Doss]

Listen, you don't gotta be. This is a lot.

[Sam Stein]

I appreciate it, man. Joshua Dawson, as a pollster, political strategist, he heads up Black Voter and Economic narrative research at Hit Strategies and yeah, Josh, thanks a bunch, man.

[Joshua Doss]

Thanks for having me.

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[Joshua Doss]

So good. So good. So good.

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