← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:23]
B
Hey everybody.
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C
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- [00:54]
B
Hi, I'm Ben Parker from the Bulwark.
- [00:56]
D
And hi, I'm Mark Herling from the Bulwark.
- [00:58]
B
We have a very special episode of Command Post. We have been talking again and again about how one of these days we're just going to ignore the news and do a mail bag and answer all of your questions and. Well, that's not exactly what we're doing. There's too much news we have to start with right off the bat. There's the war resolution, there's the guy who has Hertling's old job who has, let's say, been reassigned and there's a flu epidemic breaking out. So we got to talk about that. And, and then we're gonna do this whole thing as a lightning try to keep it short and be. And we're to get to as many of your questions as possible. You all sent in some really interesting questions. I don't know the answers to a lot of them. So I'm gonna toss them up and let the General knock them down. And why don't we go ahead and get started, General, with the Senate vote on the War Powers resolution. So the House voted on this a while ago. In both cases it was some Republicans joining with basically all the Democrats and saying now that, I mean just this week that more or less Trump has to stop combat operations in Iran. Is that right?
- [02:05]
D
Yeah. Now that we're, we've kind of stopped combat operations and we're heavy into the MoU phase. We do have a war powers resolutions. It's, it's. You know, Ben, I gotta tell you, we've talked about this. It's it's largely pro forma, but it's important because there were a couple of Republicans that came over, I think four that came over and voted for it. One Democrat, John Fetterman of Pennsylvania, voted against it, which is interesting, but it is symbolic and it's a reinforcement of how American citizens, through their representatives in the Congress and the Senate, should have a say as to whether or not America goes to war. And even though this all happened yesterday, the President this morning, who I think is going to Congress today to speak with the Republicans as part of an interesting dynamic, has called all the people that voted for this war power a bunch of losers. And that's kind of an interesting take from the Commander in Chief as he's going to talk to the Republican calling everybody to include Republicans who will be in the session. He's when losers because they voted to maintain some consistency in how the nation goes to war.
- [03:22]
B
Yeah, we'll talk about this more because we had a great question about war powers. But what exactly this means legally is really open for debate. The War Powers act of 1973 was part of this ongoing battle between Congress which under the Constitution has the authority to raise armies and navies and declare war, and the President who is the Commander in chief. And there's always this tension about like what does that mean when you get right down to the nitty gritty details. So Congress said in 1973, in the middle, basically after the Vietnam War, well, the president you can do a little bit, but if it lasts beyond a certain period of time is like a 60 day threshold is a 90 day threshold, whatever, Congress has to approve it. And then the Supreme Court said, well, not exactly, because you, you can't just have Congress approve it. That's not a law. And the whole thing is very complicated. And the executive has never, no president has ever admitted that this act is constitutional. So as you said, it sort of means nothing. But the symbolism is everything. The symbolism is Congress does not approve of the war. That's what a majority of members of the House and Senate said. I got to admit, I think it's kind of lame to do this after the fighting is done. Like if you're going to send a message, send a message, but whatever, it's something.
- [04:36]
D
Well, I would say there is one key element of this because the administration is going to Congress asking for a war supplemental of $80 billion. And that's certainly something Congress can contribute to in terms of holding those fundings back connected to this war powers vote. Republicans are really kind of in a Very bad position on this because they understand that all of this, the funding, the actions, the president ignoring of the Congress is all kind of falling on them if they continue to support. And there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of American people behind this war. So the funding of it will become an interesting piece as they look for that $80 billion supplemental which is going to be discussed today as well.
- [05:25]
B
Yeah, that's going to be interesting. Okay. We promised to do a lightning round. Moving on. Your successor, several times removed double entendre there, didn't even intend it. As commander of US Army Europe, has been removed from his post. This is General Donahue. The Wall Street Journal is reporting this. We've seen a lot of these, not exactly firings, but quasi firings of three and four star generals and admirals and also lower ranking officers. What should we know about this?
- [06:01]
D
Well, first of all, a little bit about Christopher Donahue, four star general. Everyone knows him as cd he was a special operator, commander of the Ranger Regiment with Delta Force. He is, in Hegseth words, very lethal. But he's also an extremely brilliant guy and really good in terms of international affairs as well as war fighting. He was when he was selected to pick to follow General Chris Cavoli, who I knew real well, who was also not only a war fighter, but a Russian expert, spoke several languages. You're getting some of the cream of the crop in U.S. army Europe, Africa. And that's different from when I commanded it, Ben. It was just US Army Europe. Now it is Usura RAF. So it includes Africa. You have 49 countries in Europe, 54 in Africa. This guy kind of oversees anything that goes on between those two nations. From an army perspective, it's a large complex organization and he was the right guy to take command of it. Considered to be a potential future chief of staff of the Army. And that was maybe why he was put there, to get some more experience on international affairs. A potential future chairman of the Joint Chiefs. That's how good this guy is. And then suddenly yesterday he announced his retirement, which allegedly will take place on a ceremony on July 2nd. When you do it that quickly with a four star general, that means there's more afoot. There was some real disagreement at both the Normandy celebration commemoration a few weeks ago. When Hegseth went over to give a speech at the cemetery at Normandy, he said some things that really upset a lot of our allies. After that event, there were a lot of the Department of Defense rapid response actions of showing films of Hegseth going around shaking hands with 100 year old veterans and all that. What you didn't see a lot of was General Donahue going around to the bars in St. Mara Glace and having multiple beers with those veterans and listening to them. That's the kind of guy he is. He's more of a soldier soldier, just an unbelievable operator. But he knows people. And to see now he's added to the list of more than two dozen senior three and four star generals, which was our bench within the Army. But the other services as well is just really distressing. And I think what they will do is replace this four star position with a three star position which will further degrade the reputation of US Army Europe.
- [08:50]
B
Yeah, that, that would be a big shame. You know, things like, especially when you get to the level where generals are part diplomats, they're interacting with their peers abroad, things like how many stars you wear on your shoulder really matter. That's why During World War II we invented basically the five star rank so that our generals could be, you know, even with their British and Soviet counterparts.
- [09:09]
D
Right. I just reached over on my desk, Ben, if I can. This was a coin. You know, we give those challenge coins out for US Army Europe. It was the last one I had, so I kept it as a remembrance. But what's interesting about this, this is a representation of the patch of US Army Europe which was first worn by General Eisenhower as the commander of Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces. The representation of a flaming sword on a blue shield was when Eisenhower originally designed the patch, it was a black background to the flaming sword because he was entering the darkened continent of Europe. When Lucius Clay took command from Eisenhower, he changed it to a blue background saying the light is now throughout Europe. And this is the patch that US Army Europe has worn ever since.
- [10:01]
B
That's incredible. One last comment I want to make on this story, which is, you know, this kind of thing we now have to talk about, General Donahue was a white guy. So I think we're seeing two different patterns of, let's call them personnel actions at the senior levels of the Defense Department. One is we're seeing a lot of people who are not white and not men seem summarily just stricken off promotion lists summarily. Their careers basically summarily ended. And then we have a different pattern of white guys who wear stars on their shoulders who are suspiciously retiring early. And those seem to be people who maybe said something to Hegseth like I think you made a mistake or I would do it differently or I think you're wrong, obviously we don't know exactly what transpired in this case and we have very little information about these cases generally, but it seems like the default answer to any problem is fire someone.
- [10:57]
D
Well, there's a little bit of a conspiracy theory blossoming here too, Ben. I'll throw it out there. Laura Loomer has been knocking General Donahue ever since the exit from Afghanistan. The famous picture that's on that shot that Matt just showed that's on the front of the Washington Post is General Donahue being the last person to leave Afghanistan because he was entering the ramp of a C130 after all his troops had already departed. Reminiscent of the movie. We were soldiers once when, when Mel Gibson got was the last commander on the helicopter. True story from the Adrang Valley. Donohue was the last guy out of Afghanistan commanding the 82nd Airborne Division, which came in to support the withdrawal and the non combatant evacuation operation. So he is tarred with being part of what many would say is a. Was a botched withdrawal. I would never say that because I don't think it was. But I think we're going to see some conspiracy theories of things being hung on Donahue for being the guy that was the last one out of Afghanistan. Let's watch and see what happens in the future.
- [12:18]
E
Great.
- [12:18]
B
Well, that would not be the first case we've discussed as someone being tarred by this administration, by this DoD leadership for the orders they got previously. That seems to be another pattern. Okay, our last, our last lightning round story before we go to the AD and then take your questions. If you enlist in the Air Force or Space Force, you will go to Lackland Air Force Base in Texas. That is the one place they do new training for enlisted personnel. And you have a very good likelihood right now of having the flu. At least 222 recruits at Lackland Air Force Base, which is in San Antonio, have the flu and four have been hospitalized. This comes not long after Secretary Hegseth removed the requirement that service members get the flu shot every year. He said it was part of their freedom still to get various vaccinations for a bunch of other things. Like I think, do you still have to get anthrax vaccinations? I don't remember.
- [13:15]
D
Yes.
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B
Yeah, still anthrax a whole bunch of things because that's part of the job. But the flu, you don't. And so now you get the privilege. It's your right to get the flu while in basic training.
- [13:26]
D
Yeah. Well, I'm going to throw some more at you here Ben, I didn't prepare you for this. Joint base San Antonio is not only the Air Force basic training site, the major basic training site, it is also arguably the most important military medical education and training hub in the Department of Defense. It is the center for the medical, excuse me, medical education and training campus, METC at Fort Sam Houston. And that's the primary training location for Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, enlisted medical personnel. And it's widely recognized as the largest enlisted military healthcare education campus in the world.
- [14:10]
B
Wow.
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D
Approximately 16,000 medical students, soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, across 50 medical specialties, a daily student population of about 5,500. And it's the U.S. army's medical center of excellence. So you've got a flu outbreak at not just the Air Force training base, but also the major medical center in the US Military.
- [14:37]
B
And you know, it's not like they can say, oh, you've got the flu, take a week off, we'll do training later. Right. I mean, they've got to get people into service. They've got another class coming in behind. If you lose time in training, be it medical training, be it basic training, whatever, that's just lost time, right?
- [14:52]
D
Well, yeah, not only that, and you have such a short window for training in the first place, but you know, I was looking online yesterday when this story continued to break and get larger and larger and of course all the anti vaxxers are saying, I never got a flu shot in my life and I've never had the flu. Great. You probably were not in a barracks with 500 other people in close proximity training and breathing on each other when you didn't get that flu shot. So it was a luck of the draw. But when you have this many soldiers, or in this case, airmen together and, and you have any kind of infectious disease, somebody's going to get it and it's going to be passed around very quickly unless you're inoculated.
- [15:32]
B
If only someone had warned them. If only. If only. All right, we're going to show an ad real quick and when we come back, it's question time.
- [15:39]
D
Okay, good.
- [15:41]
F
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- [17:24]
B
I have used Zocdoc before it. I had a great experience, worked really well. Okay, first question since we were talking about war powers just a minute ago from Marta. Her question is all about the War Powers act and what it means sort of operationally for the military. How does it affect the military to keep fighting after the War Powers Acts time window has expired. Are there legal consequences for officers ordering operations when we're not legally at war? If that's even the case, does it affect morale? Are there benefits or accommodations service members would qualify for in an actual war that they're not getting because we're not in a war? And how does this come across as America accepting rules and laws don't apply to war fighting? And how does it affect the military culture in the short and long term? That's a whole bunch of questions. And I would just add as context that the House passed the War Powers Resolution saying we disapprove of this combat, of this war while there was still sort of quasi a war going on in Iran and the Senate Waited until after we were already in the negotiations phase. But generally, General, how do you. Generally, General, how do you respond to Martin's question?
- [18:30]
D
Yeah, it's a hard question to answer, but what I'll say is I've seen a lot of people asking the question, hey, if the soldiers are still fighting and the War Powers act hasn't been approved, are they now following illegal orders? No, they're not. You know, the war power exists because Congress represents the American people. The founders gave Congress the power to declare war because they believe the people's representative should have a voice before the nation commits its sons and daughters to war. The military doesn't get a vote. Soldiers follow lawful orders from their commanders, which emanate up to the commander in chief. But congressional involvement should force elected leaders to explain their objectives, the costs, the risks, the end states before Americans are asked to send their sons and daughters to war and make the sacrifice. So when Congress avoids the difficult vote, or when they don't vote at all because they don't want to offend the President, their result becomes strategic ambiguity, but not tactical ambiguity. I know. I'm hedging this question a little bit, Ben, but what I'd say is soldiers will continue to fight if they're given the orders to do so. What they'll struggle with is any uncertainty about whether the American people support them and what success looks like as identified by the commanders in chief. This should work as part of a system. But what we've seen. Well, at least since the War Powers act was actually passed, there's been a whole lot of confusion. There's been a whole lot of talk about it, but the military will continue to do what they're told to do by their civilian bosses.
- [20:16]
B
Yeah, I don't have. I don't have much to add to that, really. You know, the whole. The constitutionality of the War Powers act is really complicated and nuanced. And if you want to say that anything the President does with the military without prior congressional approval is unconstitutional, that's. That's one theoretical interpretation of the Constitution. I'm not going to say you're wrong, but it's not the way the rules work right now. So the whole thing gets really, really confused.
- [20:40]
D
Well, not just right now. It acted the same way when the War Powers Authorization of Use of military force, the alleged AUMF during the Global War on Terror, was actually in existence for several decades. And there was some, Truthfully, some bastardization of that law, too, because people wanted to hit different targets.
- [21:01]
B
Yeah. And if Congress really wanted to, to end a war. They could say no more money. You're not allowed to spend any more money on the war. They could say we're disestablishing the units that are, that are, you know, contribute to the war. They could say we're not going to have an army and navy next year if they really wanted to. The issue is it's the, you know, the political possibilities and the, the interplay between the branches. All right, moving on. Lightning round or. I'm trying to keep this going because we have a lot of questions. Let's go to Mark. When the US moved to a professional military after Vietnam, a veteran warned me that a professional military would allow politicians to wage endless wars. Was he right? He felt the only way to check politicians war desires was for everyone to participate in our defense. So what do we make of the all volunteer force?
- [21:50]
D
Yeah, there's an argument about this that, you know, one. Well, I'm going to start with a little bit of history. One reason that political leaders were cautious during World War II was that nearly every family member had skin in the game. Everyone was fighting in World War II and everyone knew someone who was serving. But today, as I've said a couple times in both writing and on this show, less than 1% of the Americans serve. So less than 1% of our 18 to 24 year olds are wearing the uniform of the country. And most Americans don't personally know any of them. I can't tell you the number of times Ben, I'll get a DM or a text message from somebody saying yeah, well I support the military because my great uncle served in World War II. That's great, but that's not an understanding of what's going on today and that distance matters. To get back to the question though, I'll tell you a little history. When when the, the generals in the 1970s and 80s and began designing the all volunteer force post Vietnam. During Vietnam we had a draft and people were drafted for it. They designed a situation where they put critical capabilities in the Reserve and the National Guard and here's what I'm suggesting on that. So if you take, I don't know, let's name a couple truck drivers, some military police, civil affairs officers and I think we have another question on civil affairs coming up. If you put those in the National Guard or the Reserve, then you have to mobilize them and you get more of a connection with the American people. So the idea in that design was that if America went to war that communities across the country would feel the effects of it, because reservists would be mobilized, but nobody really fully anticipated the degree to which people would be mobilized during the global war on terrorism from 2001 to 2000. Well, till today, you still see a lot of National Guard tank units, and there's plenty of tank units in the army to reinforce the active components. What I'll tell you is during Desert Storm, we had a Puerto Rican bath and laundry unit, National Guard with us in the desert. I had never heard of the fact that the army had a bath and laundry unit. But sure enough, these great young men and women from Puerto Rico showed up with their washing machines and their mobile heaters for the showers that we hadn't had in about three weeks, and they were mobilized to be along with us. The professional military that we have right near the volunteer force can make it easier for political leaders to employ forces because so few citizens have a direct connection to it. But I don't think that there's an answer of, hey, let's reestablish the draft so we make it harder to have war. Vietnam was fought with a draft, and it didn't cause people to second guess that. But the answer, I think, instead of a draft, is accountability. How do you use that military? How do the civilian leaders use the military? In different ways. And how do they connect what military force is being used for when they speak to the American public?
- [25:23]
B
It's a great answer. You know, they tried to. To. When they. After. After Vietnam, they tried to sort of thread the eye of the needle and have the perfect force that was well trained and professional and capable and would follow orders lawfully. Yeah, a big part of having a professional military and all volunteer military, but also wouldn't be too separate from the rest of society, which is why they gave the National Guard those particular responsibilities. There are a lot of arguments going on right now about, you know, coming on 50 years later if we got that balance right. There's also no doubt that if we end up in a very, very big war like World War II, like Vietnam, we will have some kind of draft. The Selective Service system is still in effect. You know, I've registered for it. By law, men have to register for it when they turn 18. That's still part of the design you mentioned.
- [26:16]
D
Wouldn't it be surprising if we did get into a major war? And suddenly, Ben, you got something in the mail saying, welcome to the US Air army or Air Force or Navy. That would be interesting in and of itself. Right.
- [26:27]
B
I would immediately write back and say, can I get A flu shot.
- [26:31]
D
Okay, one more, one more personal point on this.
- [26:34]
B
Yeah.
- [26:35]
D
Whereas I'm not for re establishing the draft across the board. I am a huge proponent of national service in some area for all people because you see how you can contribute to your communities and your government, whether you're working overseas or working in a community. But I think every young person should have an opportunity to spend at least some time in community service of some type of.
- [27:00]
B
Yeah, I think that's a. I think it's a great idea. You mentioned Civil affairs units. We have a question from Ryan. Before I read this question, Ryan, if you ever played for the New York jets, send us another email. Confirm if that's you. Okay. Does General Hurtling have any stories or insight from working with Civil affairs units? Have they been, have they likely been deployed in recent operations? Should they be? Are there concerns that opposed USAI world, US Sorry, a post USAID world that Civil affairs might be sidelined?
- [27:30]
D
Yeah. You know, I'd start off by saying civil affairs may be one of the least understood and most important specialties in the military. Have I worked with them? Absolutely. We had Civil Affairs Brigades with us in Iraq during both my tours in 2003 and 4 and 2007, 8 and they were magnificent. These go back to the point we were talking about before. The majority of Civil affairs units are from the reserve component. So they are folks who in their civilian lives normally do stuff that's related to civil affairs, like, oh, I don't know, sanitation systems or infrastructure repair or those kinds of things. So the brigade, the Civil Affairs Brigade I had with me in Iraq, and by the way, this was interesting because when I was In Iraq in 2003 and 2004, one of my classmates from West Point who had gotten out of the service, a guy named Todd Blackbourne, was actually commanding the Civil affairs unit as a reservist and he was attached to the 1st Armored Division and he was doing all sorts of things in Baghdad. They work with local governments, schools, hospitals, businesses, religious leaders, community organization, and they help commanders to understand the civilians objectives and it helps the civilians understand the military objectives. I'll go one step further, Ben, and just kind of wrap this up. When we had Civil affairs with us in 2007 and 8, when I was commanding the 1st Armored Division, they were working specifically with, with representatives from the State Department and USAID in teams which were called Provincial Reconstruction Teams or Regional Reconstruction Teams in the Kurdish area. So these were large teams usually led by a State Department official, but that had USAID military members and they received support from the conventional force and in terms of guarding them and guarding their facilities. So, yeah, I think they're critically important. And I believe, and I did work with them, and I believe we should not or could not go to war without them.
- [29:51]
B
You mentioned a West Point classmate of yours who had left the service, which brings up something Ty mentions in his question. As the father of a current female officer in the Coast Guard, I hear young female ensigns the equivalent of a Army lieutenant, and lieutenants the equivalent of a captain, more or less in the Coast Guard and Navy, saying they will now quote, five and dive, meaning five years in the service and then get out. Whereas just two years ago they were talking about how they wanted to stay in for their full careers. They're highly trained officers, many of them graduates of the academies with specialties like nuclear power, cyber defense, intelligence, things like that. They seem to feel that if they spend 15 years in the service and then they get displaced from command because they're women, as seems to be happening in Hegseth's Defense Department, they would have wasted their careers. Seems to me Hegseth has already had a major negative impact on these young officers and hurt the service for years to come. That's technically not a question, but my question is this. How much is this sort of normal attrition of the officer corps? People come in and think, I'm going to wear stars one day and they do their first tour and they think maybe I'll go do something else. And how much of this is different and new? And what would you say to these young Navy and Coast Guard officers who are worried about their careers?
- [31:05]
D
Well, I'll say it to all the officers and enlisted throughout the force, especially the officers in the NCOs. Yeah, some attrition is normal. There are some that go into the military thinking they're going to make it a 20 year career and then get out and have a great retirement. There are some that go to West Point or ROTC and have a usually a five or a four year commitment after their graduation because the military has paid for their education. And the military not only knows that this is normal, that some will get out, but they expect a percentage to complete their initial obligation and move on. And in fact, they plan for it. They look at 20 years out from any graduating class of officers and predict how many of those new second lieutenants will someday be lieutenant colonels. So they model what branches they go into, like armor or military intelligence or infantry, based on what they think might happen on early return so there's a lot of mathematics that goes into this. But what's different today is the reason some of the folks are talking about or thinking about or actually leaving the military. Historically, they leave because they want a different lifestyle. They want greater stability for their family or opportunities in the private sector and using their military education to do it. But what concerns me now is hearing officers question, as you just said, whether merit and promotion will contribute to their departure. The military, in all the services have spent decades building a promotion and a command selection process that, you know, it's not perfect, I will admit that, but it's unbelievably rigorous. And, you know, when you serve in the military, you're accepting deployments and separations from your family and missed holidays and missed t ball games and dance recitals because they believe performance matters and it will contribute to career. A very hierarchical, by the way, career progression. So if you have people, and we have them today in the Department of Defense, who are questioning whether it's not just performance, but perhaps diversity or gender or things like that background, it really causes people to wonder. But what I'd say is I tell those young officers two things. First, do not make a career decision based on everyday events, what is happening or what you're seeing. I mean, we just talked about CD Donahue leaving the service, what appears to be a forced retirement, and I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people saying, why should I have a great career and spend 15 years in combat like Donahue did, and then suddenly be told I'm no longer wanted, what I'd say to them, political winds change and institutions will endure longer than politicians. But secondly, and this is the more important message I'd send to this individual, is the military desperately needs talented leaders. If the best officers leave, if the best NCOs leave because conditions are complex or tough or you don't understand them at the time, they create exactly the same kind of outcome they fear. So my advice, and this is tough advice to give, Ben, because I know I would be questioning it, too, if I was still wearing the uniform. Senior leaders shouldn't dismiss the concerns of these young officers, but you got to help them believe that what they're contributing to is something larger than themselves and that they will remain. When caustic politicians and administrators depart, not
- [35:08]
B
only will they remain, they will be, if anything, more important, more vital when we're trying to reestablish some of these norms and rebuild this culture. So, yeah, I mean, you know, selfish of me, but like I want them to stick around, so I do, too.
- [35:23]
D
And I know. And by the way, I want them to stick around. But I put the caveat is I know you're seeing some things and hearing some things, like the West Point graduation this year, and last year heard from Secretary Hexseth and last year from President Trump. And some of the messages they heard were really distressing for especially women, especially for members of the Corps that were people of color. But ignore that and take care of your soldiers and do your duty, and things will get back to normal soon.
- [35:55]
B
Your lips to God's ears. Our next question comes from David. I'd love to hear some discussion on what's going on with the DoD cutting the number of codes for religious affiliation down to 31. We didn't talk about the story, I don't think on command post. But this is the kind of thing that the Secretary of Defense was busy with during a war that he was losing. He decided that there were just too many codes for religious affiliation in the military. And also they, for a minute, sort of said that Mormons aren't Christian, which caused a bunch of controversy, especially with some members of the Senate who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Why are they messing around with the religious affiliation codes? What is that? Why is.
- [36:41]
D
I cannot answer the question on that. I'm hoping that the issue may be bigger than just administrative paperwork or processes. And I even saw something last night where some services were suggesting to their chaplains that they stop wearing rank. And I don't get that at all either, because allegedly the Secretary of Defense has put out a policy saying that we should respect chaplains for their dedication to God, not for their rank in the military. Okay, that's great, but I personally don't agree with that. The Chaplain's Corps exists to ensure every service member can freely exercise their own faith. Ben As I grew up in the military and commanded at different levels, I had command chaplains in my organizations that were different religions than mine. They realized, I mean, I'm a Catholic. When I had a Catholic chaplain, you know, he was the same as having a Protestant chaplain or a Jewish chaplain or a Muslim chaplain to me, because they were interested in the faith, supporting the faith of everyone. But, you know, chaplains don't just conduct religious services. They also advise the commanders on moral issues. They counsel soldiers and especially family members. They're in combat. In the book that I just published, I have two different chapters on the value of chaplains, and neither one of them that I was talking about were Catholic. So, you know, they assist during casualty operations. You know, it's just fascinating how there's a real hubbub around the chaplain's corps, which in my view is probably the most solid corps within the military. I've seen their training. Their training and how they're educated is magnificent. And religious affiliation is about dignity, identity, and trust. And it doesn't matter if there's, I don't know, 31 or 131 codes. The question is whether service members believe that their faith, traditions, what they believe, or if they don't believe anything will be understood and respected. And I think that's what chaplains. That's the service that chaplains provide today.
- [39:08]
B
You know, one of the things that you always repeat is one of the fundamentals, the fundamental truths of strategy is that personalities matter. And I think that's true here. And, you know, if this had been Ash Carter or Bob Gates and they had said, we're going to change the way we format the religious affiliation codes, I would have thought, all right, whatever. Probably doesn't matter. I might have thought the same thing. I think now, which is weird thing for the Secretary of Defense to be focused on. That should not be his priority. You have such limited time and so some, you know, such big problems. It just happens that this Secretary of Defense is kind of a religious nut and has some really weird wacko out there ideas about religion and some really bizarre tattoos about religion. And so when he gets involved in the religious stuff, my sort of hackles get up because I'm like, oh, man, what's he doing? And if he actually wanted to, I don't know, help the Chaplain Corps, help the, you know, whatever, help faith be respected in the military, whatever it is, maybe being a religious nut makes it harder for him to do that. It's because this, this is what happens, right? Like, you know, this minor piece of administrative change and everyone goes, whoa, what is he doing? Because he's got so little trust. Because.
- [40:22]
D
And he's not. He's not explaining what he's doing either. Purposely. He's not explaining. And, and the other thing we have to be wary of too. And, and I'm saying this as a former commander, knowing what soldiers in my formation believe or what they don't believe, and that there's a mix and a diversity of beliefs that when you start having prayer meetings in the Pentagon or you start preaching specifically in public events about your Christian beliefs, I mean, it's fine to have Christian beliefs. I have them too, but there Are Muslims in the formation, There are Buddhists in the formation, there are Jews in the formation, and that immediately creates some morale issues. So this is not something that should be, in my view, should be at the forefront of the agenda of Secretary of Defense Hegset.
- [41:18]
B
Agreed. Okay, next question is our first question from Larry. Larry sent two. They're both good. One of them is more serious. One of them is a little more fun. We'll start with the serious one. From what I've read about the Army's after action review process, it's been a very useful tool for improving performance. Can you walk us through an example of what it looks like in concrete terms at the command or unit level? What does it take for a review to be effective rather than an empty exercise? Would this process work for policymaking, or does it depend on the unique culture of the military?
- [41:50]
D
I'll answer the last question first, Ben. It does work for the unique culture of the military because there's a constant desire to improve and polish the organization and the leadership dynamics. And but having said that, I have also incorporated it in healthcare as well as in higher education. And I believe it can be incorporated in any business that basically conducts operations. And that's every business from entrepreneurship to family businesses to industries to hospitality. So every single one can use an after action review process that was in fact, polished by the military. And I think it's one of the most important organizational learning tools ever developed. Here's the core of it. The aar. The After Action review basically centers around four questions. Number one, what happened? Number two. Well, first of all, let me go back. Number one, what was supposed to happen then? Number two, what actually happened? Both good and bad things. What caused the things to happen to happen? Was it human error? Was it communication difficulty? It's really going down the onion of peeling back things and saying, okay, something went wrong or something went really right. How do we improve what went wrong? And how do we polish to make it even better the things that went right? And then what can we learn from all those things? Organizationally, I had the advantage, Ben, and I'll pat myself on the back on this, because I had the unique opportunity to serve at two places in my career where the AAR was the center of focus. One was our National Training center in Fort Irwin, California. The other one was the Joint Multinational Training center in Grafenwier and Hohenfels, Germany. And in each one of those places, units go to train and they literally go against real forces as their opponents. They are suited up. I mean, this is where we get Laser tag originally came from the military using lasers to determine who shot who. And that's how the game's laser tag came about. But you can see who was being shot, who was being. You know, what equipment was being damaged. You had it on a big screen. You had perfect situational awareness, if you were what they call the observer controller, which is what I was. And then we would stop the battle every 12 or 24 hours, 42 hours, and everyone would come together and we would review the missions that the unit just conducted. And we would ask the commander and his staff and his subordinate commanders, okay, what were you trying to do? And they would show us their orders. They'd show us what their maneuver plan was, and then we'd say, okay, then how come you got your ass handed to you by the opposing force? Well, you know, and then they kind of go through. But as the commander of the operations group, I had perfect situational awareness. I knew what happened. And so I would ask questions to feed the after action review. Like, hey, you were supposed to attack at 0600 in the morning. Did you get off on time? And the commander, not having perfect situational awareness, would say, oh, no, we got off on time and everything was good. Well, as the ops group commander, I would have videotapes and the simulations coming back on the screen, and I would simply say, okay, play the videotape. And we would watch units going around in circles because they were lost on the map. They didn't know where they were. They. They had one guy leading the patrol that wasn't savvy enough. They. The radio operators were asleep and weren't reporting what the unit was doing. Some of the batteries that were supposed to be charged for their missile systems had not been charged the night before. So you would break down every single problem in terms of what happened. And all of those were training issues that a commander thought. Everything was going great within my organization, and, boy, we were spot on until we showed him what really happened. And then he realized that he hadn't trained his soldiers the way he should have. So that's the. What we learned from it. And when you do that simulated battle, usually at the National Training center, was two weeks long and you were losing sleep. Weather conditions changed, training improved, but not greatly. As the commander, you would say, okay, here are the things I want to work on. Because in the last aar, Hertling pointed out to me that I was getting these things wrong. And he would check those things better. Okay, that's the military approach. Let's Turn it into healthcare. So when I was working with a healthcare organization, I introduced the After Action review after Covid was over. And what I said was, okay, what were the things we got wrong? The issues were, did we use all our people effectively? Did we have an adequate supply chain? And was it being monitored to get the right things to the right people at the right time? Who was in charge? Who were the people communicating to the public about what we knew about the disease? Was it the people from infectious disease? Or was it the CEO of, of the health care system who didn't know as much about what was going on than the infectious disease guy did? So through this AAR process, we really worked through some really interesting dynamics and figured out where we needed to improve the health care system that I work for, much like we used to do for our army units as they go through the training centers.
- [47:43]
B
The only thing I'd ask, the only thing I'd add rather, is to the point about is this possible for policy? And the answer is kind of yes and no. I think, unfortunately, when you're at the level of, you know, the head of state, you're the president or the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister or the generalissimo or whatever, there's no person who has, you know, General Hertling's level of perfect situational awareness and knows.
- [48:08]
D
And my, by the way, my perfect situational awareness came from all the guys that work for me that were watching the unit do the things they were doing and they saw the faults. So it wasn't that I'm all that smart. It's just I had a bunch of guys that were willing to report, and I think you're getting to a point that's really important. If you're willing to learn and grow, you can adapt the organization and find ways to improve it if you're always making excuses. And by the way, at our training centers, we have some commanders who always blame somebody else or make excuses or you're never going to perfect your organization. You're not going to improve your organization. So the things that make AARs work are humility, honesty, an understanding that everybody makes mistake. And the key is to try and avoid making those mistakes or train people to avoid them. But then the fifth thing is psychological safety. Are you going to get fired because you made those mistakes or are you going to be given a chance to improve them? That's how our training centers work.
- [49:18]
B
I would only add that the Bulwarks mission also involves honesty, telling the truth, good faith, and a commitment to the mission. Which in our case is democracy and doing politics the way we think everyone should do it. So if you're not a Bulwark member, join and you can send us your questions and we'll answer them. Okay. I wanted to move on to one of Nick's questions. Nick also sent us a bunch of questions, so we're get through as many of these as we can before we have to go. This question is, what effects do military failures have on morale? How would losing the Iran war affect the discipline, morale and cohesion of the military?
- [49:57]
D
Wow, that is a great question. And I think it has both short term and long term answers. When those in the military have participated in operations that did not go well or perhaps ended in perceived failures, they take it on themselves and say, boy, that was a waste of my energy and time and life. And oh, by the way, I saw some buddies killed in action or wounded in action and lose legs and arms. So the question always becomes, was it worth it? You know, the departure from Afghanistan, I think really had a devastating effect on all of the soldiers and airmen and Marines who served in Afghanistan during that period of time because they saw all their really hard work, their fighting, their work, the civil affairs teams working with the, with the governments trying to improve their republic, all the things that they did, they felt, oh my gosh, it's personified by those planes taken off with a bunch of people that some of some of whom didn't get out. So I think a lot of folks figure it was a failure. I wouldn't see it that way. And I would try and talk to those who fought there saying that every day there were successes and there were always three steps forward and maybe two steps back, or on some days, two steps forward and three steps back. But you were doing the best you could. My personal experience, I kind of rebel when I hear people say that Iraq was a failure. It was a failure in policy because we probably should have never gone in. And I believed that from the very beginning. But from the standpoint of being a guy that served there with sons and daughters in law, who also served there in my family, was it wasted? I think you would have to talk to the Iraqis today who don't have a dictator, who have the early workings of a representative government within their style of culture, who have leaders that believe in the people being important as opposed to a dictator. So I think in the long term, Iraq was a success, even though some people might claim it was a failure. The same thing is true of today in Iran for all the military personnel that took place, that took part, excuse me, in the operations over the last three months. They did what they were asked to do to the best of their ability. The strategy, as we have repeatedly said on our conversations and in our writing, was probably not the best. So it caused some real dysfunction and chaos. But in my view, the military did extremely well in doing what they were asked to do. It may not have been linked to a very valuable success from a strategic standpoint. So will that have effect on the morale of the military? I'm not sure. That remains to be seen.
- [53:20]
B
We've talked about this before and my worry is that if you have people who are currently in, say, middle school or high school and they're starting to be more aware of the world and what they see our military doing is, you know, striking boats in the Pacific and in the Caribbean Sea under, let's say, generously questionable legality. They see us abducting Nicolas Maduro and sort of forming a corrupt bargain with the terrible Venezuelan regime. They see us starting a pretty incoherent war with Iran in which we end up giving up a lot in exchange for not much. They're gonna, they're not gonna think, oh, I'm gonna go join the military and do something worthwhile. They're gonna think, I don't want to be involved in that. And so, you know, it can create. I don't think it's going to, but I think there's the risk that it creates a self fulfilling prophecy whereby you don't have a lot of success, so you don't get the best people, so you don't have a lot of success, so you don't get the best people. And you know, we, we were able to, to fix the military really after Vietnam, but it took a lot and we've already pressed a lot of those buttons like creating an all volunteer force. And I don't know how you do it again. It's going to be difficult.
- [54:36]
D
Well, I mean, you and I published that article that you helped me with on asymmetry the other day. Maybe you know what, the actions in Iran over the last couple months will cause us to take a whole new look at the way we put together conflict, operations, conduct in operations. It isn't just the military that should be working this. We should have learned this lesson a long time ago, but it seems we haven't. And let me end this conversation by saying, Ben, I'm going to give a personal confession that I gave my wife the other day as I was watching something on cable news about what was happening in Europe and our allies kind of going against us in both Italy and the UK and other places. And I said to her, I said, God, I feel like my entire career has been wasted because a third of my career I spent in Europe trying to build the best alliances we could build and making friendships with like minded democratic nations and showing how our militaries could work together and our government could learn, governments could learn from each other. And boy, is that going down the toilet right now. And she said, you know, you can't think of it that way. My wife kind of buoyed me up. She said, you can't think of it that way. You did what you could while you were serving and that's all that people can ask for. And what comes next is on somebody else. So can we rebuild those alliances? Can we really rebuild the trust and confidence we had in our 32 allies in NATO? I don't know. That remains to be seen.
- [56:21]
B
Yeah, I would only add that, you know, it's not within your power to cement an alliance for all time, but we would have been worse off if you hadn't done that. So that's the value. Okay, we have one more question over short on time. Ann says, as a grandmother and teacher of 50 plus years, congratulations. And I have a lifelong investment in our youth. Would you discuss how families and teachers and communities can raise young men to feel strong when they care for others? And I'm just going to move my head out of the way. Where is it? So you can see General Hertling's book behind me somewhere. Somewhere on my bookshelf. I don't know exactly where it is. I can't tell in my little tiny.
- [57:02]
D
Well, maybe I can. I can move mine over and it's back on, facing out on my bookshelf right there.
- [57:09]
B
There you go. So that that is the answer is read the book.
- [57:12]
D
Well, Ann, I gotta tell you, first of all, thanks for being a grandmother and teacher for 50 plus years. That's amazing in and of itself. But I would recommend you take and this was not planned as a commercial, but let's use it as such if you want to buy my book. The book is basically a series of letters to our two sons when I was in combat. And I wanted them to know what mattered in life. Not just military service, but character, relationships, values, integrity, leadership, responsibility. And when I revisited those letters decades later, after our youngest son typed them up and gave them to me and asked me to write some more, I realized that all of these aspects centered on empathy and resilience and humility and responsibility and service to others, which is what the strongest men I've known were known for. And it's those strongest men and women I've known with those qualities or who other people depend on because they care for their families, they protect their teammates, they accept responsibility when things go wrong, and they always serve something bigger than themselves, just like being a teacher of 50 years does. So, you know, I, I'd ask you to maybe take a look at my book and see what you think about the lessons because it's all about building character and leadership and values within our young people. And by the way, I will give a advanced announcement, Ben, if you don't mind. Oh, my publisher of this book has talked me into transferring the things I wrote about in this book into a children's book.
- [59:07]
B
Wow.
- [59:08]
D
And it should be available in a couple of months. And you're going to get the first copy because you have a brand new young son that I, that maybe you can read it to and start your lifelong teaching of him.
- [59:22]
B
I would love that. That is so exciting. Well, for those of you who stayed tuned to the end, I did not know that announcement was coming. That's so exciting. I can't wait to see it. And you know, believe it or not, we had more questions that we were going to try to get to. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. Please keep sending them. We'll try to do this again. If we didn't get to your question, I'm very sorry. We meant to, I promise. And if you're not a Bulwark plus member, you should go to bulwark.com sign up. General thank you so much. This was fun.
- [59:50]
D
That was our first mailbag, Ben. And that was, that was a whole lot of fun. Thanks for everybody who wrote in and we hope we get more letters now.
- [59:57]
B
Yeah, have a good one, everybody. See you on the next command post.
- [60:00]
G
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H
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D
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H
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D
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D
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H
I think you've wandered too far mate.
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E
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