Mark Hertling (3:20)

Yeah, sure. Well, there's two parts of that, Bill, and we'll talk about both of them. The first is sending in the National Guard. The National Guard actually has a mission set called support for civilian authorities. When they do that, they can go into an area, guard buildings, conduct administrative or logistics functions, but they can't arrest and they can't harm or approach fellow citizens in a policing type way. Even if you're a military policeman or woman within the military, you can't do that. It's against the law. In order to do that, you have to be legalized through the Insurrection Act. And that's both guard and active duty components of the military. So if, if I'm sitting in the Minnesota National Guard and I'm called out to do different functions, I can do relatively supportive functions to policing authorities. Like I said, guard buildings, put up fences, do whatever, but I can't arrest somebody. If the President sees it in his mind to call out the Insurrection act, that changes everything. And that means that both the National Guard and the active duty forces are then federalized and they can do whatever the President wants them to do because there's a threat of insurrection. That's what the Insurrection Act's all about. So at that point you can actually ask the military to conduct the policing functions, arresting people, detaining people, putting them in jail, guarding jails, and you can also use them in a kinetic sense and what I mean by that is they can fire on American citizens because of it's a potential insurrection. So you don't want the military, even though they are much better trained and much better led than some of the yahoos we've been seeing on the streets of Minneapolis over the last couple of weeks. What I've seen in terms of the CBP and the ICE patrols is their leadership is terrible. They have very little training in what they're supposed to do, and yet they are dressing up as if they want to be soldiers with all the kit, with the arms, with the weapons. Now, certainly police forces need weapons at times to protect themselves, but the way they've been generating the threats using bear spray, pepper spray and even pointing pistols at people is contrary to what we believe a police force should do unless they are threatened. So that's the difference between what we have in policing and even the ICE and cbp, even though their mission is much smaller than what you might have in a militarized, deployed and federalized force that would go in under the purview of Northern Command.

Bill Kristol (6:00)

Yeah, so let's just take another second on that distinction because it's so important. It does get allied. And there are some distinctions. It's a complicated matter whether the National Guard. I mean, normally the National Guard is activated by the governor and there's a crisis, there's floods or something. The normal authorities are very busy doing a million other things and they help the authorities do things. And that's always been the way I've seen it. The National Guard helps existing law enforcement or rescue or emergency service providers to do what they're doing. And often the way they help, as you said, is they, they guard the buildings, you know, so the police can go out and take care of whatever the problem on the streets is, whatever. They're not allowed because of the Posse Comitatus act to, to independently arrest people or, or, or, or be involved in law enforcement. So that's reasonably non problematic, I suppose I awry, obviously, but. And usually done at the request of the governor. Now, obviously, under President Trump this past year, he has activated the Guard contrary to the wishes of governors, which I think does get more problematic. But even so, they've at least claimed that. And I think it's true mostly that they were restricted in what they were doing more the guarding of federal facilities and they weren't out. They did some patrolling in LA and then in dc, but much less, I think, than we're seeing from ICE and the Border Patrol. So that's part of that's established. The National Guard trains for that. Right. I mean, it's not something they're not unfamiliar with. The notion that they would have to go someplace and guard some federal facilities.

Mark Hertling (7:37)

Yeah, not at all. In fact, that's one of their missions. And they train on things like riot control as well. So they're. They're prepared using batons and shields and helmets and things like that to prevent the destruction of equipment or cars or whatever you happen to see. But again, what we're talking about is something very different.

Bill Kristol (7:56)

Yeah. So let's talk. Explain. So then the Insurrection act legalizes using the military, in effect, as police. In effect, or as.

Mark Hertling (8:05)

As. No, it actually uses them as soldiers against.

Bill Kristol (8:10)

Explain that. That's a good way of putting it. So good.

Mark Hertling (8:12)

The difference is when you have police forces, they fall under the mantra of protect and serve the people. When you have the military, they do things like attack, destroy, defend, kill. I mean, it is used as a kinetic force. So deploying the military into action by proclaiming the Insurrection act says basically like it did during the Civil War, we have fellow citizens who are trying to overthrow the government so you can use deadly force against them. That's the difference. And now, certainly, like we saw in Los Angeles, military units can be deployed, active duty military units, even the Marines in Los Angeles, which was somewhat odd because they almost never do that mission, but they were limited in what they could do to the same thing the National Guard can do. They can't police, they can't arrest, they can't detain. They can only guard different things. So again, it's a very slippery slope. And I personally think that the president was attempting to instigate riots where it appeared that the citizens of Minneapolis were rebelling against the government through violent actions. So therefore, they would have to be put down. And in order to do that, you would declare the Insurrection act because it was an attempt to overthrow a legally projected government. So those are the kind of differences you're talking about whenever you use the military and tell them you are now facing your fellow citizens and you can prevent them from doing actions through any force possible. And it's controlled a little bit by what the military would be given from their commanders called rules of engagement. But that hearkens back to some things we've heard Secretary Hegseth say when he's proclaimed, we're not going to mess with rules of engagements. Those things just tie our hands. We're going to go in and be lethal. And, you know, huahua and all the things that military guys do. And that's where you begin to misunderstand the role of active service members in terms of policing their fellow citizens. And truthfully, but it really boils down to the American public has trust in the military to fight our nation's war and do do the things we're asked to do, but that trust will become broken. If you're facing military against fellow citizens, how do you react to that? And it puts both sides in a very difficult situation because the military then has to counter any citizens that might be rebelling.

Bill Kristol (10:50)

And this is why you've been so adamant about how dangerous it would be and what a mistake it would be to invoke the Insurrection Act. I guess I was in the White House in 1992, Vice President Quail, Chief of Staff so I had no real role in this. But I was there in the meetings where they decided to do it. They did invoke the Insurrection act because the LA riots were really out of control. Governor Wilson and the mayor were very alarmed that it could get further and further out of control. And I said the quickest thing to do is to get, I think it was active duty, actually military from nearby. It was out there on the streets. But again, this was done by A President George H.W. bush, who had no interest in using the military anything in any, in any other way than to stabilize the situation. The Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney, I think, as Colin Powell would have been chairman of the Chiefs, I mean, there was no interest in causing trouble. If I could put it this way, there really was just a sense of this was a very unusually bad situation and the military could help. And they were there briefly and I think were sent home pretty quickly, actually.

Mark Hertling (11:50)

Yeah, they were.

Rocket Money Advertiser (11:52)

The number one resolution for people last year was to save more money, but nearly half gave up by February. Don't let that be you. Download Rocket Money to reach your financial goals this year, track your spending, cut waste and automate savings in one simple app. Rocket Money shows you all your expenses and categorizes them so you know exactly where your money's going and where you're overspending. From there, the app cuts waste by canceling your unused subscriptions and lowering your bills. No customer service needed. With that money freed up, the app will automatically set some cash aside for your goals. Whether it's an emergency fund, paying off debt or saving for vacation, Rocket Money's got you covered. Users love the app, with over 186,000 five star ratings, and on average, users can save up to $740 a year. When using all the app's premium features, make saving money a priority this year. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel.

Mark Hertling (12:52)

The other difference in the 92 riots in Los Angeles was the fact that the rioters were using deadly force against fellow citizens. So that's when you call in a bigger force that is prepared to use weapons against people who are shooting at people and burning things down and that kind of stuff. So that's another key difference between 98.

Bill Kristol (13:12)

Yeah. And LAPD, obviously, since the riots were partly about an action of LAPD a year before were, you know, they were both a little swamped, but also not trusted by major parts of the community. So I think it was, you know, it was an exceptional thing to do. It went fine. It went well in the sense that I think it did help calm the situation and it was resolved. But I think you're, you're the point. You're getting to also about the kinds of things Secretary Hexeth, Secretary Hickseth has said about the military and President Trump himself in that speech to the generals of Quantico. Right. About this will be. What did he say? This will be your training ground or something in the US Cities or. I mean, that's a very different vision. Right. And that must really have sent chill. I mean, what did people think when they heard that? Senior officers like yourself.

Mark Hertling (13:56)

Yeah, that I was going to use that. I was going to use that exact word. It sent a chill. When you start saying we're going to train on the streets of America, that is not what we do. There are training grounds for the military, which are very well controlled. And when you're talking about putting the military, which again, is a high rating of respect among our, our fellow citizens, against the citizens in the streets, that's going to cause nothing but problems. And going back to, you know, the deployment of soldiers, there's only been one time that, that I know of in the history of the United States other than the Civil War, where soldiers were deployed into an area that the governor didn't want them. It was against the, the, the Desegregation act, and the governor wasn't obeying a federal mandate.

Bill Kristol (14:42)

So still I remember vividly, I mean, as a kid and then later, obviously, when I was, you know, in school and college and so forth, the photos. But it's clear the military is there defending little kids basically, and their families who are going to school, as the courts had ordered over, against massive citizen resistance. Citizen resistance is being helped, honestly, by local law enforcement types. Right. And so that's where you sort of need to get an independent force in. But they didn't go around shooting at, at, you know, citizens, even if the citizens were segregationists with distasteful views on race matters. Right. There was no thought that they were going to. They were there to protect and to, and to, and to try to keep peace as best as they could. So again, very, very different from the image that I'd say President Trump and. But really what's sad is all throughout the administration, the Vice President, Secretary of Defense. Christine, what they projected is they want to use everyone, whether it's ICE and Border Patrol, obviously, but also other elements of the federal law enforcement apparatus and then the military itself as part of this effort to deport many, many people, but also to intimidate many, many people, it seems, you know.

Mark Hertling (15:51)

Yeah. And I think that's been their mantra from the very beginning. They not only want to intimidate people on the streets, but they want to, it appears to me, they want to instigate violence. And that's why we've seen so many governors and mayors say to their citizens, don't take the bait. Because as soon as they take the bait and there is violence, that gives the President the option to call the Insurrection Act.

Bill Kristol (16:14)

It's literally true, just as an again, empirical matter. Minnesota, Minneapolis. I'm no expert on the place, maybe. I'm sure it had some problems. The amount of chaos and violence in Minneapolis today after sending in the Border Patrol and ICE is infinitely greater than it was before. You know, and I mean, if they needed some help with actual criminal justice policy, there are many ways the US Government has to provide that kind of support. But that has not been what obviously the ISIS doing. And of course, the Border Patrol, what are they. They're trained to do things at the border, which is a complicated task and different actually from policing in cities. But again, they're there. This is not something it's my knowledge that they are trained for at all. I mean, ICE isn't really trained for this either. ISIS trained to mostly to take people who have been arrested, actually often by local police forces, and then to if they're, for example, they serve their term, but they're undocumented immigrants and they're convicted of not going to be released back on the streets of the US And ICE flies them to, in the old days to a country that they had come from and, and, and tells them not to come back. You know, and that's someone's got to do that. And ICE did it, and that's part of immigration enforcement. And. And they did some other things as well, obviously, but. And border patrol, again at the border. So I do think people should appreciate how it doesn't excuse, obviously, the individual's behavior. Not at all. In fact, some of these people have been recruited now because they want to do this, I suppose, but this was not what they were supposed to be doing.

Mark Hertling (17:42)

Yeah. In terms of deporting, absolutely not. Again, it goes back to intimidating and instigating those who aren't illegal immigrants.

Bill Kristol (17:53)

And the behavior. I've got to say, I don't know what you think about this. Well, you've watched police departments pretty close up. Military has a certain interest and it is a kind of. It's not the same thing, but it's a cousin, you might say. And you have interacted with them, I'm sure, and you've dealt with them abroad quite a lot. I know, in Central and Eastern Europe and other places, Iraq for that matter. The degree of just unprofessional behavior is really shocking. I mean, from the masks to the taunting of people. I mean, whatever. I mean, God knows we've had bad apples and we've had sub units of police departments that have acted badly in the south in the 30s and 40s and 50s is a whole different story. But. But still, basically, in modern America, police departments are trained pretty rigorously and with real accountability and real penalty. If they don't do it to behave in a, you know, appropriate way, I would say legal way, really. And body cams and so forth. And the names, you see their names. And, and they have to report if something. If there's a. If a firearm is discharged, certainly if someone's hurt or there's an investigation automatically. And the investigation, at least allegedly is done by an impartial reviewer. And often they put the person on leave who discharged the firearm to make sure that there was nothing, nothing was wrong, was done. Police departments are pretty used to dealing with this stuff. I'm just so struck by the contrast with ICE and the Border Patrol. You can see why the police departments are upset about this.

Mark Hertling (19:23)

Yeah, well, and that's the thing. The police, good police departments walk a very fine line between defending their citizens and protecting them and garnering the support of the citizenry. And that's what I think. You know, both Governor Walz and Mayor Fry have been concerned about because they've worked very hard over the last couple of years to regain trust of the citizens in their local police departments. And because of, you know, the combination of policing and what the Border Patrol and the ICE agents are doing, it's generating a lack of trust in any kind of security forces that's roaming the streets. And I think that's where the police, who are very highly trained in this. One of the things you mentioned, my time in Iraq we generated, helped the Iraqi government generate a police force. And we were turning policemen out in about three weeks at a training academy. That's way short of what you need. I mean, most police academies take, you know, 10 months to a year to train a good police officer. And it has to do with these kinds of things, gaining trust from the citizens. And it's important because you get tips, you can get a feel for the culture and the environment that you're working in. People don't get hurt. But it seems that in the last couple weeks, that's exactly what these other agencies are not trying to do. You know, an important point came up today. Again, we're recording on Wednesday, so people will be this, and it's on Thursday, but this shooting happened on Saturday. And when I first saw the film of it, it went beyond just watching someone being killed. It went to the fact, as you just said, these. These were untrained people. These were six guys trying to pull down one individual after pushing a woman to the ground. There was no leadership there trying to direct the charge. It was just a gang, a piling on of a gang of thugs. It's now five days later, and today was the day that the Border Patrol and ICE have said they are pulling the people off duty that conducted this attack and actually shot the guy five days after it happened. I mean, my take from a military perspective, you get a guy in a tough shooting or a violent contact with. With some kind of enemy that you want to kill, and even if they half shot someone and conducted a violent attack and it's resulted in a death, you still pull those people offline because human beings have to adjust to that. Beyond that, though, it's the leadership of the entire organization. How did it take five days to finally pull these officers who pulled the trigger off of the force? And they were, in fact, it appeared to most of us as if they were actually hiding those individuals who shot the weapon, you know, trying to get them out of there and put them in another place and not even naming that an investigation was going on. All of that is contrary to the way a democracy works.

Bill Kristol (22:21)

How worried are you that it gets worse before it gets better, both in terms of what's happening? On the streets, but also in terms.

Mark Hertling (22:27)

Of the Insurrection act, it's a great question because on Thursday and Friday of last week, I was concerned that there was going to be a calling of the Insurrection act. As much as not, a whole lot of good things came out of this event. One of the good things is I think the administration has pulled back from thinking about doing that because they see how dangerous it is and the American public has seen how dangerous this force is. So it better get under control. Now they're sending Tom Holman in. I don't know how much he's going to improve the conduct and the discipline of this force in a short period of time because as you mentioned earlier, they have recruited a bunch of people that would normally not be in law enforcement in this conglomeration of these two agencies. So it's real hard stepping in as a new leader, even if you're a hardcore leader like Holman is, and changing the culture of an organization to get them to stop these kind of things. And we're all we're still seeing it today. Again, it's Wednesday. There are still reports going on that they are approaching citizens the same way they've been doing for the last couple of weeks.

Rocket Money Advertiser (23:37)

The holidays are expensive. You're paying for gifts, travel, decorations, food, and before you know it, you've blown way past what you were planning to spend. Don't start the new year off with bad money vibes. Download Rocket Money to stay on top of your finances. The app pulls your income, expenses and upcoming charges into one place so you can get the clearest picture of your money. It shows how much to set aside for bills and how much is safe to spend for the month so you can spend with confidence, no guesswork needed. Get alerts before bills hit. Track budgets and see every subscription you're paying for. Rocket Money also finds extra ways to save you money by canceling subscriptions you're not using and negotiating lower bills for you. On average, Rocket Money users can save up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Start the year off right by taking control of your finances. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel yeah, I.

Bill Kristol (24:37)

Found that particularly disheartening that over the last 4872 hours, there's many, many reports in Minneapolis and actually elsewhere in Maine and other cities of ICE and Border Patrol and maybe others. Most of those too though, yeah. Officers behaving as they have been Behaving, there's no sense of this is a wake up call. We've got to really change our way. And that's partly, of course, because they were encouraged, I would say by senior leadership in Washington to keep on going. You know, you guys have nothing to apologize for or to worry about.

Mark Hertling (25:06)

Well, interesting on that point, I guess. It was a report today that Kristi Noemi stated that she was told by Stephen Miller how to project what happened on Saturday to talk about that he was brandishing a gun and this is a danger to officials. And when the films came out, all of those messaging and marketing of something that didn't happen was, was an additional lack of trust that the American people will put in the government personified. But what happened. So again it, it h. How do you get away from what we've seen over the last couple months that it takes a major culture shift to change that? I, I know because I've been in cultures like this and it just doesn't, you can't just flip the switch. Flip the switch and make a change overnight.

Bill Kristol (25:59)

Yep. That's not, not. Yeah, well, it's hard headed and important though and important for people in Congress to think about is say possibly legislate new rules and new oversight and so forth. A week ago it's hard to believe President Trump was in Davos and we were talking about NATO and Greenland and very important topics. You talked about it at length last week. Really excellent analysis. But what happened that do you think? I mean Trump seems to have pulled back. Is there some reason we don't. Well, what do you, what do you know? You've talked to, you talked to an awful lot of people over in Europe.

Mark Hertling (26:32)

Mark Rudy is the NATO Sec. Gen Secretary General Charge of NATO. He's kind of the civilian leader of the, of the NATO alliance in, in Brussels and he has been very adamant about fluffing, if you will, if you'll allow me to use that term. President Trump, he has been one of those individuals that has attempted to gain insight and trying to influence President Trump in certain ways, mostly by reinforcing some great things that the President has done and how he's contributed so much and helped NATO grow and all this other stuff that some might say is a little bit hyperbolic. But Rudy had a conversation with Trump after the conference at Davos and evidently right after that President Trump started saying, well, maybe NATO can handle this and maybe they do have a plan and maybe, you know, it's a good idea for us to do some additional coordination with them. Well, the Fact of the matter is, Bill, the issues with the Greenland, Iceland, UK gap, which is a northern defensive line in NATO, has been a topic of conversation at all NATO ministries, what they call the ministerials and all NATO meetings for the last probably 15 to 20 years. It's a critical element of the NATO defense alliance because of primarily climate change and how the Arctic, the Great north, is melting faster than the rest of the planet and it's opening some sea lines of communication with the Russians. And there's a great many larger powers, particularly Russia and China, going into the Arctic to try and garner some of the advantages that it may have. It's also a defensive location because there are radar spots on Greenland and Iceland and in the UK for anything that comes over the Pole that might be unexpected. So a combination of changing threats to NATO has caused the 32 member alliance to really focus in all of their conversations. And then they're planning on what to do about the High north, as it's called. What has contributed much to that is the fact that Sweden and Finland have now entered the alliance and they have formed a block of individuals called the Nordic Baltic 8. And it consists of the five Northern European countries plus the three Baltic countries. And it's become a powerhouse. And they are really forcing their agenda on the headquarters in Buff and Brussels to show them how important some of these Arctic issues are. So perhaps, Trump said, nobody can defend Greenland or Iceland the way we can. You know, Iceland probably would have been next, but Greenland was the topic du jour because it's in our hemisphere. And I think Sekjan Ruda probably told them, hey, look, you don't have the capability to defend it as well as the alliance would together, because there's not a whole lot of icebreakers in the US Military. There's not a whole lot of troops that have been trained in that kind of Arctic warfare. And that's a specialty of nations like Norway, Sweden and Finland. So it's a combination of probably influencing President Trump to realize that a lot of his bluster probably should be pulled back a little bit and see how important this 32 nation alliance is in NATO.

Bill Kristol (30:13)

Yeah, it's so interesting. And my impression is there weren't big fights in NATO on this. There were questions, as always, about how best to coordinate and what exactly the right things to do are. But it's not as if Canada or the UK or certainly Norway, Sweden, Finland or Denmark were balking at doing things that we wanted done right. I mean, that was one of the craziest things I thought about the rhetoric that Trump and this seems to have been maybe spurred by Vance and others who don't like NATO in Europe. I mean, you know, making it seem like the mighty US Was being held back by these wimpy NATO nations. But I don't in this, and that might be, you know, in theory true in some other areas, they don't spend enough on this or that, but we're certainly not, I don't. Is there any reason to think this was true in this area?

Mark Hertling (30:57)

No.

Bill Kristol (30:59)

Quickly.

Mark Hertling (30:59)

No. You know, what's interesting is you didn't mention Canada, too. I mean, all the countries that contribute to the alliance and have a great deal of interest in the Great north, the high north, as they call it, are some of the ones that President Trump has tried to push aside and say they don't know what they're doing, let us take control. And I think he will quickly find, if he does the analysis or if his Department of Defense and State do the analysis, they will say, boy, it's a whole lot easier to manage this situation in the high north if you rely on the NATO partners as opposed to push them away.

Bill Kristol (31:37)

Venezuela, I think you're planning to talk about that quite a lot next week, and you can, you can explain that a little more. But Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, did testify on the Hill today, and a lot of the conversation focused on Venezuela. Any quick reactions or particular things you noticed?

Mark Hertling (31:53)

Yeah, Secretary Rubio's comments, his written comments. He didn't speak this at his introduction to the, to the people he was testifying before, but it basically appeared to me that he was reinforcing what has happened almost a month ago. It was January 3rd when the attack against Maduro occurred that captured him and brought him to a US prison. But in the three plus weeks since that January 3rd strike and the capture of Maduro, Venezuela hasn't changed a whole lot. There's still a contested, unstable and still deeply dysfunctional strategic space because of corruption, because of the oligarchs and the criminals in the area, and because the oil hasn't been tapped the way President Trump thinks it has. Now, I think Secretary Rubio mentioned that people are quickly looking at it from the short term where President Trump is playing 3D Trust, 3D Chess, and he's looking at it from the long term. But from what I've seen in the reported remarks from Secretary Rubio, there is still no clean endpoint or clear objective in terms of what's going to happen in Venezuela. And just like it occurred on January 3rd, Bill, when the President was asked who's in charge and he turned around and said the guys behind me are. I don't think there's anybody still in charge. Rubio made a great deal of talking to the new president of Venezuela and saying we've got a great relationship. And she evidently backed that up by saying they have a great relationship. But there's no whole, not a whole lot of devils in the detail on what's going on.

Bill Kristol (33:45)

Yeah, we'll see how this all works out, right? So far at least not exactly a wonderful democracy. Not a. Or not even the expelling of Cubans. Well, anyway, it's not worth getting into. You'll talk more about it next week. What are your plans on this excellent show?

Mark Hertling (34:00)

Next week we'll probably be discussing the one month anniversary of Venezuela. Whatever happens on the scene, in the streets, what is going on with the military? You know, just at the end of last week, Secretary Hegseth contributed to the space the national defense strategy which emanates out of the national Security strategy which we in the bulwark reported on a couple of weeks ago. But the national defense strategy, I've reviewed article online today about that and it has some disconnects between ends, ways and means that I think will not be beneficial for the military. But again we're going to ask for some input and we have. I'm going to read it. The email address to submit your questions is commandpostwork.com those are all one long word and if you're enjoying these episodes folks have asked me to please let us know in the in the remarks comments on substack and if you listen on YouTube or Spotify do the same thing. And if you're listening to Apple podcasts please consider leaving a review with your five star ratings and appreciate it.

Bill Kristol (35:12)

And you command posthebullwerk.com is very that's clear. And actually it'd be great to have people ask you questions directly and obviously you always sift through them and figure out which ones you have time to answer and are the most important and most interesting. But you know, because I get questions after we do one of these shows or even when I'm not on and by people and I think we began the show with the one that I passed on. So I really look forward to that.

Mark Hertling (35:36)

Thanks Bill and thanks for being with me today. It's always fun talking to you and there's a lot going on and that's why we started this command post to give a little bit of insight into the military and national security.

Bill Kristol (35:46)

Thanks Mark.