Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode Title: RFK Jr. Is the Biggest Public-Health Threat in U.S. History (w/ Sam Kass)
Date: November 7, 2025
Host: Jonathan Cohn (The Bulwark)
Guest: Sam Kass (Former White House Chef & Senior Policy Advisor on Nutrition)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s approach to food policy and public health, exploring both the substance and the rhetoric of his administration’s efforts. Former White House Chef and policy expert Sam Kass joins host Jonathan Cohn to discuss the intersection of food, politics, and public health—unpacking the true stakes and contrasting the Obama-era agenda with current trends. Kass also addresses RFK Jr.'s critiques, the wave of diet-related conspiracies, and the existential risks climate change poses to our food system.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sam Kass: From Baseball to Food Policy

(02:00–04:00)

• Sam Kass shares his unconventional journey, starting as a college baseball player with major league ambitions and pivoting to the culinary world.
• He emphasizes the formative experience of working in professional kitchens and his awakening to food systems' impact on health and the environment.

"I started realizing how much our food system was undermining our health and also starting to undermine and erode planetary health."
— Sam Kass (04:07)

2. The Obama Food Agenda and Its Challenges

(05:35–10:00)

• Kass explains the Obama administration’s focus on children's health, noting both the rationale (largest impact on starting young, politically palatable) and the practicalities of shifting food environments.
• The agenda aimed for both greater public awareness and systemic change, but faced entrenched industry and political resistance.

"We were trying to transform the health of the nation...you'll have the biggest impact the younger you start in terms of trying to improve people's health..."
— Sam Kass (05:53)

• Host Cohn raises the surprising extent of GOP backlash, with Kass recalling cultural pushback and political battles over seemingly simple proposals like school nutrition.

"Sarah Palin was passing out cookies and saying get the nanny state out of our house. Michelle Obama, like, you have no business telling us what to eat."
— Sam Kass (09:55)

3. RFK Jr.'s Food Platform: Substance vs. Rhetoric

(11:45–14:00)

• Kass acknowledges that RFK Jr.’s critique of the American food environment (over-processed foods, health consequences) is not new and, in itself, credible.
• However, Kass draws a sharp distinction between valid criticism and RFK Jr.'s conspiratorial spin or focus on “symbolic” issues.

"The critique is largely one that I agree with...After that point, it all falls apart, like, dramatically."
— Sam Kass (12:23, 13:46)

• The administration’s highly-publicized efforts around food dyes and seed oils are described as missing the point—more about optics than real change.

"Fruit Loops with food dyes. Fruit Loops without food dyes is still not something you probably should be feeding your kids...It is—there's still Fruit Loops."
— Sam Kass (14:20)

• Kass specifically debunks the demonization of seed oils and the influencer-driven “fear based ecosystem” around these ingredients.

"Seed oils are not dangerous. In fact, they are...better than saturated fat."
— Sam Kass (14:50)

• He criticizes the administration for promoting misleading health ideas, such as praising beef tallow-fried fast food, which moves public health backwards.

4. Erosion of Public Health Institutions

(14:55–16:50)

• Kass asserts that behind symbolic policies, RFK Jr.'s administration is dismantling core public health and regulatory agencies (CDC, FDA, NIH, USDA), undermining the capacity to support real improvements.
• He warns that this dual-track (“look over here” rhetoric while gutting institutions) is unprecedentedly dangerous.

"He is unequivocally the biggest threat to public health the United States has ever faced."
— Sam Kass (17:09)

• The food agenda acts as a fig leaf to draw in concerned parents—especially suburban moms—even as deeper harms are being done.

5. Nutrition Assistance: SNAP Cuts and Standards

(17:40–20:10)

• The conversation turns to cuts in SNAP (food assistance), which contradict purported improvements in nutritional standards.
• Kass lays out the trap: nominal improvements in standards are used as cover to restrict and cut benefits, rather than meaningfully support healthy choices for the poor.

"You can only do that, however, if you are meaningfully increasing the benefit. Because right now it's simply nowhere near enough money to buy healthy food."
— Sam Kass (18:38)

• For Kass, these are classic austerity moves that ultimately harm vulnerable populations.

6. The Bigger Picture: Food, Climate, and the Future

(20:11–24:00)

• Looking forward, Kass outlines the grave threats climate change poses to food security and national stability—affecting everything from beloved foods to commodity crops that billions depend on.

"Many of the foods we love and hold dear...are really under threat and may not be available, at least at a price point that most people can afford in our lifetimes."
— Sam Kass (20:39)

• The administration's rollback of climate and agricultural policies exacerbates these risks, endangering the well-being and culture of future generations.

"Our very way of life, when you start to get into what's happening in our food system, is truly under threat."
— Sam Kass (23:41)

• Kass suggests that RFK Jr.’s focus isn’t true public health, but rather a platform for legal and financial gain by lawyers.

7. Final Thoughts and Takeaways

(24:00–24:21)

• Kass calls for an agenda that authentically addresses both food quality and climate resilience, warning that current trends are dire.

"We need aggressive action. And that is absolutely not what we're seeing. In fact, quite the opposite."
— Sam Kass (23:58)

• The host recommends Kass’s new book, “The Last Supper: How to Overcome the Coming Food Crisis,” for those seeking deeper understanding and concrete solutions.

Notable Quotes (w/ Timestamps)

• "I started realizing, you know, how much our food system was undermining our health and also starting to undermine and erode planetary health."
  — Sam Kass (04:04)

• "Sarah Palin was passing out cookies and saying get the nanny state out of our house. Michelle Obama, like, you have no business telling us what to eat."
  — Sam Kass (09:55)

• "Fruit Loops with food dyes. Fruit Loops without food dyes is still not something you probably should be feeding your kids...It is—there's still Fruit Loops."
  — Sam Kass (14:20–14:22)

• "Seed oils are not dangerous. In fact they are...better than saturated fat."
  — Sam Kass (14:50)

• "He is unequivocally the biggest threat to public health the United States has ever faced."
  — Sam Kass (17:09)

• "You can only do that, however, if you are meaningfully increasing the benefit. Because right now it's simply nowhere near enough money to buy healthy food."
  — Sam Kass (18:38)

• "Many of the foods we love and hold dear...are really under threat and may not be available, at least at a price point that most people can afford in our lifetimes."
  — Sam Kass (20:39)

• "Our very way of life, when you start to get into what's happening in our food system, is truly under threat."
  — Sam Kass (23:41)

Important Timestamps

• 02:00–04:00: Sam Kass’s personal journey to food policy
• 05:35–10:00: Obama food agenda and Republican backlash
• 12:18–14:00: RFK Jr.’s food critique, symbolic reforms, and conspiracies
• 14:55–16:50: Institutional dismantling under RFK Jr.
• 17:40–20:10: SNAP standards, cuts, and impacts on the poor
• 20:11–24:00: Food security, climate threats, and the need for systemic action

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, urgent, and deeply informed. Kass combines policy expertise with vivid real-world examples, often communicating a sense of both hope and grave concern. The host draws out specifics and challenges, ensuring that the critique is nuanced—even as the overall outlook is stark.

In Summary:
This episode reveals the vast gap between rhetoric and reality in current food policy under RFK Jr., warns of the deliberate undermining of public health institutions, and underscores the existential dangers climate change poses to food security. Sam Kass offers both historical context and a call for action, making clear that what’s at stake is nothing less than the health, security, and very culture of American life. For listeners wanting the roadmap to solutions, Kass’s new book is the recommended next step.