Bulwark Takes: Episode Summary – "RFK Jr’s War on Vaccines Just Got Worse"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Bulwark Takes
• Host/Author: The Bulwark
• Episode: RFK Jr’s War on Vaccines Just Got Worse
• Release Date: May 1, 2025

Hosts:

• Sam Stein: Managing Editor at The Bulwark
• Jonathan Cohn: Writer of The Bulwark’s Breakdown newsletter

Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Sam Stein and Jonathan Cohn delve into the escalating actions of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.) concerning vaccines. The discussion centers on RFK Jr.'s recent announcements and policy proposals that have intensified skepticism around vaccine safety and efficacy.

[00:00] Sam Stein: "...we're all prisoner to the algorithm. All right, Cohen, let's talk."

RFK Jr’s Placebo Testing Requirement for New Vaccines

Key Announcement: RFK Jr. has announced that he, presumably in his capacity as the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), will require placebo testing for new vaccines. He claims that current vaccines may not be adequately tested for safety.

Discussion: Jonathan Cohn analyzes RFK Jr.’s stance, suggesting that RFK Jr.’s insistence on placebo testing stems from a fundamental distrust in vaccine safety, despite the rigorous testing protocols vaccines typically undergo.

[01:27] Jonathan Cohn: "I think we can say he doesn't think they're safe... I think he's lying."

Cohn explains that most new vaccines continue to undergo placebo-controlled trials, especially when updating existing vaccines like the flu or MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) vaccines. He emphasizes the ethical and practical challenges of placebo testing in the context of well-established vaccines.

[03:50] Jonathan Cohn: "We don't want to give a placebo test to measles... people are going to get the measles."

Misrepresentation of Vaccine Ingredients

RFK Jr’s Claims: RFK Jr. has propagated the belief that vaccines, specifically the MMR vaccine, contain aborted fetal tissue debris and DNA particles. He suggests these components are harmful and that certain populations, such as the Mennonites in Texas, have valid religious objections to vaccination.

Rebuttal: Jonathan Cohn clarifies the scientific inaccuracies in RFK Jr.’s claims. He explains that while some vaccines are developed using cell lines derived from aborted fetal tissue decades ago, the actual vaccines do not contain fetal tissue debris as RFK Jr. suggests.

[06:31] Jonathan Cohn: "These are not serious arguments... it's just a tiny little piece because, you know, these breaks down."

Cohn likens the presence of such components to natural environmental exposure, dismissing RFK Jr.’s portrayal as misleading.

[07:21] Sam Stein: "He just makes it seem like there's an aborted fetus and they're scraping parts off of it and putting into a vial."

Impact on COVID Vaccine Development

Recent Actions: RFK Jr. has pushed out Peter Marks, the Chief Vaccine Specialist at the FDA, who was instrumental in approving the Novavax COVID vaccine. Additionally, RFK Jr. has paused work on new COVID vaccines and pill forms, signaling a broader halt in vaccine innovation under his leadership.

[09:30] Sam Stein: "He pushed out Peter Marks... paused working on a new COVID vaccine and pill form."

Analysis: Cohn suggests that these actions undermine established vaccine programs and hinder the development of new, potentially life-saving vaccines.

$500 Million NIH Initiative for Universal Vaccine

Announcement: RFK Jr. announced a new $500 million initiative with the National Institutes of Health (NIH) aimed at developing a universal vaccine that could potentially provide immunity against multiple variants of viruses.

Discussion: Jonathan Cohn breaks down the initiative, noting that while the concept of a universal vaccine is theoretically promising, the practicalities and scientific feasibility remain uncertain. He questions the coherence of the government’s strategy, especially amid budget cuts in public health sectors.

[10:10] Jonathan Cohn: "A plausible theory that fits the facts here is that there's a few things going on... they want to look like they're doing something on vaccines."

Cohn expresses skepticism about the initiative's effectiveness and suggests it may be more about public relations than tangible scientific progress.

Analysis and Takeaways

Overall Impact: Sam Stein and Jonathan Cohn agree that RFK Jr.’s actions are detrimental to public health efforts. RFK Jr. is perceived as using his platform to sow doubt about vaccine safety, thereby exacerbating vaccine hesitancy amidst ongoing outbreaks, such as the measles outbreak in West Texas.

[14:37] Jonathan Cohn: "He's using the platform in various ways to undermine our sort of programs, to promote vaccines, to research vaccines, to develop vaccines."

Broader Implications: The hosts discuss how RFK Jr.’s approach signifies a shift in the HHS away from evidence-based science towards policies influenced by personal beliefs and skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry.

[15:20] Sam Stein: "I want the pure red Fruit Loop."

Conclusion

Sam Stein and Jonathan Cohn conclude that RFK Jr.’s recent initiatives represent a significant setback in public health policy and vaccine confidence. They emphasize the importance of adhering to scientifically validated vaccine protocols and caution against the politicization of health measures.

[15:43] Sam Stein: "It is about as bad as you could have thought."

The episode underscores the critical need for informed leadership in health to maintain public trust and effectively manage vaccine-related policies.

Notable Quotes:

• Sam Stein [00:00]: "We're all prisoner to the algorithm."
• Jonathan Cohn [01:27]: "I think he's lying."
• Jonathan Cohn [03:50]: "People are going to get the measles."
• Jonathan Cohn [06:31]: "These are not serious arguments."
• Sam Stein [07:21]: "He just makes it seem like there's an aborted fetus and they're scraping parts off of it and putting into a vial."
• Jonathan Cohn [10:10]: "They want to look like they're doing something on vaccines."
• Jonathan Cohn [14:37]: "He's using the platform in various ways to undermine our sort of programs."
• Sam Stein [15:43]: "It is about as bad as you could have thought."

Final Note: For comprehensive insights and in-depth analysis, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to Jonathan Cohn’s Breakdown newsletter and the Bulwark Takes podcast series.