Ro Khanna on Trump’s Endless Epstein Stonewalling

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: Ro Khanna on Trump’s Endless Epstein Stonewalling

Date: December 21, 2025
Host: Bill Kristol (The Bulwark)
Guest: Congressman Ro Khanna

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Episode Overview

This episode features a timely and candid conversation between Bill Kristol and Congressman Ro Khanna regarding recent developments in the Justice Department’s handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case. Khanna, who spearheaded recent transparency legislation alongside Rep. Thomas Massie, discusses the ongoing frustrations with the Trump administration’s stonewalling, the bipartisan push for greater accountability, the significance of the so-called “Epstein class,” and the personal impact of his advocacy on behalf of survivors. The tone is urgent, at times incredulous, and deeply empathetic—underscoring the bipartisan outrage and gravity of what’s at stake.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. DOJ’s Insufficient Document Release

[01:52–04:35]

• Khanna: Despite legislation mandating transparency, the DOJ has withheld critical items: the 60 count indictment draft, the prosecution memo, and the full FBI files. Instead, they have provided either excessively redacted documents or “mythical document dumps” that avoid real accountability.
• Key Insight: Both Democratic and Republican lawmakers are collaborating to hold DOJ officials, including Trump appointee Pam Bondi, accountable—going so far as to threaten inherent contempt proceedings and daily fines.

“The problem is that we haven’t learned enough... They basically did not provide the documents that are most relevant... They have not provided the FBI files.”
—Ro Khanna [02:21]

2. Political Backlash and Administrative Panic

[04:35–07:19]

• Khanna & Kristol: Trump officials underestimated the bipartisan backlash. The initial pro forma compliance has amplified public and political anger, with even Trump’s MAGA base expressing outrage at Pam Bondi’s handling of the case.
• Notable Moment: After Khanna and Massie publicly threatened contempt on national TV, the DOJ scrambled to release a less redacted 119-page document, underscoring the administration’s reactive and clumsy response.

“They keep thinking... we’ll just do this kind of mythical document dump and people will move on... and it just increases the anger. It just increases the sense that someone is being protected.”
—Ro Khanna [04:35]

3. The Administration’s Mistreatment of Survivors

[07:19–09:19]

• Khanna: The government systematically ignored and sidelined Epstein’s victims, many of whom suffered additional trauma and stigma by being disbelieved and by the lack of legal action.
• Pam Bondi’s Snub: She cancelled a scheduled meeting with survivors on the day of the document release, opting instead for a generic, belated public appeal to survivors.

“You would think the first people Pam Bondi talks to is the survivors. They ignored [them]... it’s not a document case, it’s a simple case.”
—Ro Khanna [07:19]

4. Ineffectiveness and Erosion of Trust

[09:19–12:31]

• The administration’s inconsistent document releases and excessive redactions serve only to erode public trust further and make the political optics worse for Trump.
• Khanna highlights that even journalists and survivors’ lawyers confirm there are still unreleased documents directly implicating other powerful figures.

“They look weak, they look duplicitous, they look like they’re concealing things and they look incompetent, and it’s horrible for the administration... I’m just saddened because it’s horrible for government.”
—Ro Khanna [10:11]

5. Who Is the DOJ Protecting?

[14:01–16:47]

• Kristol & Khanna: There is uncertainty about Bondi’s ultimate motives and who she is protecting—including, but not limited to, Donald Trump.
• The hosts speculate Trump delegated the matter, but both recognize the stakes are high and the risk of exposure is fueling the stonewall.

“Who are you trying to protect and why? ...I understand why they’d want to protect Trump, but why are they trying to protect all these other people around him?”
—Ro Khanna [12:31]

6. Will Transparency Prevail?

[18:01–19:45]

• Khanna is optimistic that persistent bipartisan pressure and MAGA base outrage will force more disclosures in the current term.
• The metrics of success are clear: will the DOJ publish the original indictment, prosecution memos, and all survivor witness statements?

“We will see it now... because the response of the MAGA base has been just flabbergasted at Pam Bondi.”
—Ro Khanna [18:06]

7. The Survivors’ Courage and Social Class Dynamics

[19:34–21:42]

• Survivors were mostly from working-class and marginalized backgrounds, preyed upon because of their vulnerability.
• The impact of their continued perseverance and public testimony is profound, and their credibility now outpaces that of government officials.

“None of them came really from rich families...they were targeted based on class and vulnerability...they’re still living with that trauma.”
—Ro Khanna [19:45]

8. Bipartisan Partnership with Thomas Massie

[23:41–26:00]

• The unlikely left-right alliance between Khanna and Massie has historic roots in war powers debates; this time it succeeded in forcing action.
• Their humility, focus on survivors, and coalition-building stand in contrast to Trump’s narcissism, according to Khanna.

“Maybe in our politics, we need a little bit more humility...maybe we don’t need the charismatic showman. Maybe we need actually people who are going to make the American people at the front and listen and be humble and work in coalitions.”
—Ro Khanna [25:16]

9. The “Epstein Class” & Elite Impunity

[27:15–31:52]

• Khanna introduces the concept of an “Epstein class”—elites who play by different rules and have little concern for working Americans.
• He draws on Fitzgerald’s The Great Gatsby as a metaphor for elite indifference and blames this failure of governance for America’s political crisis.

“But here these people were raping folks on an island or watching them be raped and there were no consequences. And more broadly, it suggests elite impunity...”
—Ro Khanna [27:25]

10. National Resonance & the Moral Line

[31:22–33:28]

• Khanna posits that the country has reached a limit: “There’s one thing we agree with in this country which is like you can’t rape or abuse young girls.”
• The Epstein scandal has struck a raw nerve across party lines, symbolizing both elite corruption and the loss of American values around shame, accountability, and protection of the vulnerable.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ro Khanna: “Who are you trying to protect and why?” [12:31]
• Bill Kristol: “It’s easier to maintain a stonewall than to do one of these rolling cover ups... It’s hard to manage these things.” [09:19]
• Ro Khanna: “It’s not just that these women have been abused and abandoned, [it’s] that to this day they aren’t being believed. And this is another slap in their face.” [19:45]
• Ro Khanna: “The cover up is usually worse than the actual crime. And this is what they’re doing.” [17:36]
• Ro Khanna: “There’s a line and that line is young girls, you don’t do things. And when you have people who are doing that and getting away with [it]—it just is a symbol for everything wrong, not just of elite impunity, but also the sense of people feeling that we’ve lost American values.” [32:24]

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Suggested Listening Timestamps

• 01:31–04:35: Khanna explains the failings of the DOJ’s document release
• 04:35–07:19: Administrative panic and the reaction among the Trump base
• 07:19–09:19: Survivor mistreatment and lack of engagement with victims
• 14:01–16:47: Motives behind the continued cover up and confusion over who is being protected
• 19:45–21:42: Moving portraits of survivors and their struggles
• 23:55–26:00: The bipartisan journey with Thomas Massie and lessons for American politics
• 27:25–31:22: The “Epstein class,” elite impunity, and governing failure

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Conclusion

Khanna and Kristol’s conversation is a powerful indictment of governmental opacity and elite privilege, rooted in the lived trauma of hundreds of survivors. It is also a rare example of bipartisan urgency and humility in the face of entrenched power. With public demand for answers mounting across party lines, this episode serves as both an exposé and a call to action for transparency, survivor justice, and the reclamation of public trust in American institutions.

Transcript

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[Bill Kristol]

Hi, Bill Kristol, editor at large of the Bulwark here. Very pleased to be joined today by Congressman Ro Khanna, who's had a very busy weekend and is taking another half hour out of it here late in the afternoon Sunday away from his family on the weekend before Christmas. I feel bad actually doing this. I don't feel that bad. I feel a little bit bad.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

You know, always enjoy chatting.

[Bill Kristol]

It's good to talk to you. Thank you for taking the time because, sorry, I have a cough because it's so important and I really appreciate it. So 48 hours ago, the Justice Department started to release the documents that it was mandated to do by the legislation that you and Tom Massey spearheaded and the discharge petition and then the legislation. What have you learned? I mean, both about, I guess, the Epstein case, but also about the Trump administration's attitude towards it.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, the problem is that we haven't learned enough. I mean, they basically did not provide the documents that are most relevant. That is the 60 count indictment that was drafted and shelved. Epstein was only charged on two counts. There's a draft, draft indictment of 60 counts. They didn't provide that. They didn't provide the prosecution memo. In fact, the law was explicitly drafted saying we want decisions, communication about whether to charge or not. We want internal communications precisely to cover those documents that they have not provided. They had excessive redactions. They have not provided the FBI files. In one case, they leaked accidentally the name of a survivor, but did not release the FBI files, which she has been trying to see for years. And so then this morning, Massey and I went on Face the Nation and said, we're going to hold Pam Bondi in inherent contempt and we've got Republicans ready to do that as well and fine her every, every day after a 30 day grace period if she doesn't release the documents. And suddenly you started to see, you know, the Justice Department's been scrambling all day. Now they put out the 119 page document without redactions, with minimal redactions. They're saying there are more documents that are coming. So they're obviously scrambling. And the reason they're scrambling is they know that this is not just Ro Khanna or Akeem Jeffries. This is a lot of people in their own base who are calling for Pam Bondi's head politically. And they are scrambling at this point.

[Bill Kristol]

Well, that's good to hear. And let's see how much more you guys get. I mean, I'm a little shocked, I've got to say. It was so explicit that these, the things you mentioned, the, the witness statements which the witnesses wanted to make public. And we're not talking about violating anyone's privacy. They spoke to the FBI. They know that that's the best account of what they said. Right. They could be redacted in terms of some of the names and details. But. And then as you say, the 60 account charging document, which was just to be clear, is 2008, I guess, right. Or 2007. What? Acosta rejected that. They did the two count plea deal. I mean, how did they think they could get away? Well, let's see if they do. Don't get away. But how? What does it say that they thought they could get away with not releasing those? Why even would they not want to release them, honestly?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, this is, this is where Suzy Wilds has said that Pam Bondi is whiffed just politically. I mean, I think the Trump administration is frustrated with what they're doing and that is that they keep thinking, okay, I'll, we'll just do this kind of mythical document dump and people will move on. And they've tried this a number of times and it just increases the anger. It just increases the sense that someone is being protected. Rich and powerful people were on the Epstein Rape island that were not disclosing who they were and that they're not being prosecuted. And they make the matter worse and worse and worse. What's surprising to me is I didn't think they were going to release anything that embarrassed Trump. What's mind boggling to me is that they're protecting not just Trump, they're protecting more than Trump. They're protecting some group of people which they don't want out there. And I really don't understand it. It's politically damaging. And I think they're seeing this, I mean, they're seeing now the backlash. I mean, this is the first time you've got the Trump administration backtracking, right? I mean, usually they just thumb their nose at Congress, they don't care and they just keep doing what they want to do. Here they made an effort to comply, a pro forma effort. On Friday, they released these documents. I think they were surprised at the anger from their own base and I don't think they expected Massey and I to say, okay, we're going to hold now Pam Bondi in contempt, and we've got Republicans ready to do that. And so all day today, they've been tweeting out, putting out new statements. Oh, we're not done with the release. We're going to release more. We're going to prosecute people who committed these crimes. How can you, we believe you that you're going to prosecute these people when you're not even putting out the documents. Who's involved? So they are clearly scrambling and they know that the damage they've done to the MAGA base.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I thought Bondi's thing this afternoon, which is, well, if people come forward, we're open to prosecuting, you know, those who took, who exploited them. It's like they've all come forward, I mean, literally. Right. I mean, this is what's. So if I were a victim or a victim's family member or friend, I would be so infuriated by that statement. You know, I mean, they have not, they're not the ones who haven't. Bondi statement makes it sound like I don't Know, these people just don't want to talk to us, I guess. Right. I mean, it's really astonishing, I thought, as a kind of both a 10A or 10 error, but also sort of revealing how they think about it. They think that they're in opposition to the victims, to the survivors. Right. I mean, I was very struck by this. And maybe you can explain this. Why didn't they try to work with that? I mean, normally, if you're trying to come to the truth about something, and there are a whole bunch of people who have testified to the truth and who've testified to the FBI, you want to talk to them, Right. You say, well, is there anything that you might have gotten wrong? How can we put this out in a way that accommodates your privacy concerns? They. They seem to have been in almost no contact. Am I right about that? With the victims?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

You're right. I mean, initially, that was the whole scandal that the survivors complained to the FBI. Nothing was done. They raised alarms about being raped or abused. And Epstein, because of his contacts, was able to shut down law enforcement. And then Epstein gets this sweetheart deal because of his connection. So these survivors have felt abandoned for decades. And they felt abandoned because they often come from working class families. They come from often families where there's. They didn't have a father or they had a split parents, and they were preyed upon and they. They lacked the. The connections to be able to have law enforcement. And that's why there's such anger. But you would think now the President's campaign says, I'm going to release these files. You. You would think the first people that Pam Bondi talks to is the survivors. They ignored him. Okay, now you have the Epstein Transparency Act. Massie and I are asking to meet with the Justice Department. They don't owe us that, but it's usually pretty customary that you meet with the authors of the law to try to find the intent. Fine, you don't meet with us, but you're not meeting the survivors lawyers. In fact, Pam Bondi was supposed to meet with the survivors on the day of the release, and she cancels that because she had some kind of medical appointment. Now, I. I don't know what the appointment was, but you would think you would just give the courtesy of meeting the survivors before you release any of this. And then she puts out this tweet saying, I want to hear from survivors. Well, we know what the survivors want. They want the FBI files released. They want the witness memorandum and the draft indictment and the prosecution memo, and they want Action taken based on that. This is not a document case, it's a simple case. So people want to know who were the other rich and powerful men who abused underage girls are covered up for it. And so they have totally mishandled this and they've totally mishandled the politics because every time they think, okay, we're just going to put this behind us and go away, they just make the story bigger and bigger and unfortunately they erode more and more trust in our government.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, it is striking. I mean, I wrote something a few months in July which some of our readers didn't like so much where I said, you know, they honestly, from a political point of view, once they had that July 6 statement, we've looked at it all, we find no reason to believe that any further charges are appropriate. They should have. From a political point of view, they should have stuck to it. It's easier to maintain a stonewall than to do one of these rolling cover ups. Because once you start putting out, I mean, I think politically that's what history suggests, this is a Watergate lesson and so forth. Once you start putting out some stuff, people say, like we're just saying here, well, okay, well that's very interesting that you put out some of these photos, but we know that you have videotapes, you have, as you say, the victim statements, you have the draft indictment, where are those? And you get this. It's hard to manage these things. Not that they've maybe done as well, luckily as they might have done doing it, but I don't know.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

If you're really going to stick to the point that 119 pages are all redacted. Then, okay, redact them. But then today they release them after Massey and I go on television threatening them with contempt. So it looks like obviously they're responsive to Massey and my contempt and they put out 119 page document without redactions and it turns out they didn't need those redactions. And that's the worst of all worlds. It's sort of, they look weak, they look duplicitous, they look like they're concealing things and they look incompetent and it's horrible for the administration, which Suzy Wilds and others recognize. I'm just saddened because it's horrible for government. I mean, the biggest issue in this country is a lack of trust in government. People just don't trust us. They don't trust us to do the things we say. They don't trust us to make a difference in Their lives. And this is the kind of thing that erodes that trust.

[Bill Kristol]

And just to be clear, so the 119 page document is what document? The one.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

So there was this 119 page document for the grand jury in New York of the Epstein case. A federal judge ordered it to be released. So the federal judge said there's nothing really there that's confidential or sensitive. They put out a document. It's one of the first documents the journalists see. And it's literally 119 blank pages. And so then today they say, okay, here's a more minimally redacted version. And it's mostly text now. I haven't had a chance to carefully review it. I'm told that there's nothing there. Actually, that's deeply new. And so this is not one of these things, which that document was hidden to protect someone. It just seems such incompetence that they would excessively redact and then not redact. And that the reason they're not redacting now is because they're afraid of Massie and my contempt resolution. And so there are other documents that are concealment where we do know that other rich and powerful men are implicated. How do we know that? Because the survivors lawyers have seen these documents. They are the ones who are saying those are the documents you need to get out. And that's the big concern. And I guess if I met with Pam Bondi, I would ask her two questions. Who are you trying to protect and why? You know, and that, and that's the frustrating part. I don't, I don't understand their motive. I mean, I understand why they'd want to protect Trump, but why are they trying to protect all these other people around him?

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[Bill Kristol]

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[Bill Kristol]

Mobile.Com well, yeah, so, so okay, I just want to make clear that 119 page document YIB was the one that we saw that was all blacked out. But so this is not the victim statements and it's not the, no, it's not the counts, the 60 counts from 2008. It's not the obvious ones that you, as you say, almost specified in the legislation or the kinds of things you wanted to be able to see and that everyone agrees would be the most revealing. I mean, why is she covering it up? I don't know. She's worried that if some of these other people get exposed, they might talk about other people, including Donald Trump. Right. Once they're under the gun, I mean, don't you think? I feel like they're not, I mean they are, they aren't the most brilliant people in the world, but they're not totally foolish when it comes to their self interest. And I think got to think they're worried it gets too close to them. I mean, one thing I'm curious about, we were talking about Bondi. People criticized Todd Blanch, I think correctly, for his performance on TV this morning. But I mean, it ultimately goes to Trump. This is not, it's not an administration that respects the distinction between the Justice Department and the White House, as we know. And Bondi said she discussed this with Trump. She told Trump what was in the files. Right. I mean there's no big mystery about that was a while ago. Right. And I mean, I, I don't know, do you have even a sense of who's making these decisions. Is she checking in with Trump before.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Doing these things in this case? I don't think she is. I mean, I think she was. I think that Trump probably said, look, just handle this and I don't want to hear about this again. I think Trump is genuinely very frustrated because the reality is usually he just lies about something or says move on and his base moves on. And you know, if he wants to bomb people in the Caribbean, he'll bomb people in the Caribbean. He wants to have ICE agents rip people away from their families. They have the ice ages do that. He wants to threaten universities, he'll threaten universities, wants to gut usaid, he'll get usaid and usually the Congress, the Republicans in Congress don't say anything. And here's this one issue which he probably thinks is not with the same stakes as some of the other things he's gotten away with, in his opinion. I mean, I have gotten to know the survivors, so I think what's happened to them is just horrendous. But in his opinion, he just doesn't understand it. Why is it that he's losing his MAGA base over this issue? And so he probably, my guess, this is speculation, says just make it go away. Do whatever you need to do to make it go away. Pam Bondi does this stuff and it blows up even more. And I'm sure he is livid. I'm sure Susie Wells is livid that they're bringing more and more life to this story because it shows that Donald Trump has become part of, part of the swamp that he said he would drain.

[Bill Kristol]

But I mean, it might also be that Trump does know, of course, what's in there to some and some things that are in there. And he's not, you know, he's not quite as hand. I mean, he may be hands off in practice, but he also doesn't want some things to come out. And so he's. But he can be angry at Bondi on the one hand and still not want everything to come out on the other, right? I guess, yeah.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, I think, you know, he is, he's not a reasonable person. He probably expects her to be able to keep the stuff that keeps him out of trouble confidential and release everything in a way that makes the story go away. And if that was their intent, they did it in one of the most clumsy ham handed ways. I mean, it's not like this was some elegant attempt to shield Donald Trump and have others exposed. My thought was that they would give a few names and have the story be about these, a few other politicians, few other billionaires who were involved. And so it looks like they were being transparent. And I thought they would take, take steps to keep some of the most potentially incriminating things about Donald Trump or things that got closer to Donald Trump that they would redact that. What I didn't expect is them to just think that they could get away with doing nothing and that just being pro forma responsive was going to be enough. They made the matter a lot worse. I mean, I have had more people searching about the Epstein Transparency act for my digital team now because of the incompetent release than when we passed the bill. And so, you know, like you've covered a lot of American politics. The COVID up is usually worse than the, the actual crime. And this is what they're doing. They're just digging themselves in a deeper and deeper hole.

[Bill Kristol]

Do you think we will see the victim statements? Do you think we'll see the original, the 60 count indictment?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

We will see it now. The question is, are we going to see it in this term, in this presidential term? I do think we will see far more even in this term because I, because the response of the MAGA base has been just flabbergasted at Pam Bondi. I mean one, one, one MAGA supporter said, I, I usually don't retweet Indians, but I'm going to make an exception and retweet Khanna now. And you got to have a sense of humor in this business. But I mean, you know, you've got people who would never, who would never give me the time of day or taking my side and Massey's side because they're so flabbergasted at the corruption and they don't understand why these documents are being withheld. And so I do think they're going to, they're showing today that they're bending and they're going to release more. But whether it'll be a full transparent release, I don't know. But the metric that Massie and I have always said is are they going to expose the other people who are really involved in this and if they think this is just a much ado about nothing and a hoax, then release the stuff and people can say, okay, there's nothing there to be seen. But if you release the indictment, if you release the prosecution memos and if you release the witness memorandum and there's still not much new evidence, then you would have some leg to stand on. But it's not like we're being vague it's not like we're sending people on a fishing expedition. We're specifying exactly what documents we're asking for them to release.

[Bill Kristol]

Say a word about the victims of the survivors you've gotten to know. I mean, and I'm just what strikes you about them? I mean, it must be very moving talking to them.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

I mean, they're really heroes. What struck me about them is how vulnerable they were. None of them came really from rich families. Very few came even from upper middle class families. A lot of them came from working class families. Some of them were daughters of immigrants. Many of them didn't have a father figure. And the, the way they were targeted in, based on class and vulnerability to be exploited, the guilt they still live with. I mean, some of them talk about having to recruit other junior high girls to be raped or, or, or, or abused because they didn't want to face that themselves. And then they're facing the accusation that, oh, they were the ones trafficking these girls when they were just trying to escaped that abuse and they're still living with that trauma. I was really moved by Annie Farmer, who's, who spoke about her sister in the 1990s bringing up this complaint to the FBI. And the FBI didn't believe her and didn't do anything. You could have had thousands of victims lives protected if someone had acted on it. And even on the day she was on the steps of the Capitol and he was saying that her sister still was not being bullied, still being called a liar. And the one thing that did come out with this release is that her sister was telling the truth. The FBI had a documentation of her complaint and didn't do anything. So it's not just that these women have been abused and abandoned, is that to this day they aren't being believed. And this is another slap in their face because there's still people saying, oh, this is, this is not, this is just about Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell. There are no other people involved. This is all an exaggeration. And they're saying there are people involved. We know who those people are. And until those files come out, they are not going to feel a sense of fully being seen and heard and respected.

[Bill Kristol]

You know, I want to get to a couple other things quickly in the 10 minutes we have left. But the, there's a Justice Department fact sheet that got put out an hour or two ago. And in the one part they just, it's uninteresting and uncommunicative, I would say, of defending themselves. And at one point the fact sheet Says something like, look, if. If there were places where we didn't, we did redact. We thought we had redacted things. Maybe we didn't. And we heard from, I think, the alleged victims or. Or their lawyers. And if, if so, if. If they're right, we'll, you know, we'll fix it or something like that. The alleged victims, really. I mean, is.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Is.

[Bill Kristol]

Are there people in these. In these photos who aren't victims? I mean, I guess I just struck that. That seems to be. To say something about there. This isn't a legal document. They don't have to say alleged every time they say the right.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

These are 1200 survivors. I've met dozens of them. There's not a single person who I met who I don't believe went through extraordinary abuse and trauma. No one stands up in front of the Capitol, in front of the country, and talks about being raped at the age of 13 or 14 and having to recruit other people to do that for any sense of. Of their own advancement. I mean, they're not making any money off this. They're not getting any benefit of this. They're in tears after they do it. They're reliving their trauma. They're sharing a very deeply traumatizing experience with the country. Many of them have their own kids. They have family. I mean, it's awful. And they have been not respected, not just by this administration, by our country, for over decades. And so their courage is really the story here. And the fact is that they moved a nation to actually get Donald Trump to try to comply. I mean, at least he's there responding to Congress. For a year. No one could get them to answer Congress. I mean, sort of like Massie and I have been able to get them to respond to Congress not because they're afraid of Mass, hear me. Because they understand that these survivors have more credibility than they do.

[Bill Kristol]

No, that's very well said. Say a word about how you and Massie came to do this. I mean, an unlikely combo, as you said. But I don't know. Just curious, what's the backstory here?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, Massie and I have teamed up before on issues of war and peace. I mean, we've been trying to reassert Congress's role in. And saying, look, if you want to go bomb Iran, if you want to go bomb other countries, we can debate the merits of it, but at the very least, you got to come to Congress. That's why the system was designed. And we did that when Biden was president. We did that when Trump was president. So we developed a trust and a relationship of respect. And so it was natural when I introduced this bill to get a release of the Epstein files. Massie saw that we flipped one Republican, Norman, and he had the ingenious idea. He said, if you could flip one Republican on the Rules Committee, in a committee of about 12, my guess is, statistically, he's an MIT guy, we'll be able to flip enough Republicans. And his thesis turned out to be right. And, you know, for nine years we've been on the losing side of all these war powers resolutions. It turns out this one succeeded. But, you know, we don't, we don't have an ego about it. And I was happy to let people think it was the Massey bill for the longest time, even though it was my underlying bill, because I wanted it to be seen as a Republican bill. And we showcased Republicans. And Massie is very, very happy to amplify my content. And he doesn't think, oh, there's a progressive Democrat that I'm aligning with. And I think it shows, in my view. I mean, in an age where Donald Trump has made it all about himself, you know, he makes it about himself even when Rob Reiner dies, he makes it about himself in terms of getting a jet. He makes it about himself in every single moment. What the American people, I think, respond to with Massey and me is we're actually trying to make it about the survivors and we're not trying to make it just about ourselves. And maybe in our politics, we need a little bit more humility. Maybe we don't need the charismatic showman. Maybe we need actually people who are going to make the American people at the front and listen and be humble and work in coalitions. And that's, that's what I hope our coalition, our partnership can pave the way forward.

[Bill Kristol]

Does Massie think he can get other Republicans? Let's assume they don't come forward with these bills in the next two, three weeks. You guys reconvene on January 5th or whatever that is. Does Massie think he can get other Republicans to get serious about holding the administration accountable?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

In various ways, we do. That's why we went with inherent contempt, which is saying we're going to likely give a 30 day grace period to get more documents and then after that pay a bonding fine. Every day we're working out what that fine would be. And you need the House of Representatives to do that. And the sergeant of forums can enforce it. We can talk about the difficulty of the enforcement, but the point is that Massie believes that there are three or four Republicans who are ready to sign on to that. And that would be enormous signal that it's not just a Democrat in Massey. The Republicans are upset about it. And when you look at the influencers online, there's very few MAGA influencers who are defending Pam Bondi. In fact, we were joking that he says that the problem the MAGA folks are upset with what we're doing or upset that we're talking about holding Pam Bondi into in contempt or impeaching her. And we're not just letting Trump fire her. So even, you know, they're quibbling over who should get rid of Pam Bondi. But there's not much organic sympathy for Pam Bondi in the MAGA vase.

[Bill Kristol]

And say a word about the Epstein class, a phrase that someone used to you, I think in a conversation that you've used yourself and I think very interesting one, it seems to have real resonance.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, I think it goes to the sense that there are rich and powerful people in this country who play by a different set of rules and have a different set of values than what I grew up with in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And you know, you or I, we run a red light or have a speed and you're going to get a ticket and you better pay it. If you don't pay a parking ticket, your car is going to get booted. But here these people were raping folks on an island or watching them be raped and there were no consequences. And more broadly, it suggests elite impunity that there are powerful and rich people who don't think that the rules apply to them and that they were not concerned enough about the rest of America, not concerned enough as they outsourced jobs, not concerned enough as they saw income inequality rise, not concerned about the fact that 70% of Americans don't believe in the American dream. They're just kind of self absorbed. And so this to me is what needs to go in American politics. And it needs to be replaced with a politics that actually has the American people first and foremost.

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[Bill Kristol]

Interesting, interesting. And you've got a good response when you say Epstein class, or people say, oh, you shouldn't say that. Not every lot of people are perfectly decent billionaires. They're not doing what Epstein did and so forth.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

You know, I don't know, the billionaires certainly say the latter, but I'd say 70, 30. I think that some people say, are you saying everyone's a pedophile? I say, no, I'm not saying that everyone's a pedophile. I'm saying that, you know, one of my favorite novels is Great Gatsby, and there's this line about Tom and Daisy Buchanan and they accidentally kill someone and then they don't suffer the consequences. And Fitzgerald says, you know, they retreated into their vast money and indulged in their carelessness. And I think that's really the indictment of the governing elite. When I'm in my provocative, feisty moods, I say, look, this is not the greatest generation. This is a failed generation. This is a generation of governance that really let down the American people. And you want to. I'm not saying they're not decent people. They didn't get fancy educations. But the proof point is we got Donald Trump twice. You can't argue that we've had good governance if this is the. If this is the outcome. And so we need to acknowledge the anger at the system. We need to acknowledge that there's a class of folks who really have not paid enough attention to the abandoned Americans who built this country, who climbed the Scaled the cliffs in Normandy, who were beaten on Edmund Pettus Bridge, who built the steel, the coal. That was the resonance of Donald Trump that he was saying that there are people who were left out. And we've got to say, look, we're going to hold these folks accountable in a way Trump didn't. And we're actually going to build something positive, affirmative with people and we've got to re earn that trust to be able to do that.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. So interesting. It would be kind of amazing. But history's full of these kind of ironies and unexpected turns. Right. This scandal which has gone on for so long, I mean, as you say, it's a 30 year cover up, not a, you know, not just a Trump cover up, becomes the moment for a real reconsideration of some of the Trump administration, but of many other things as well. I mean it wouldn't, it wasn't what people. There are many other issues we could have predicted that people would have used as the reason to reconsider things. Right. You know, income inequality and immigrate million stories. Right.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

But I mean, certainly I would not have guessed it. And you know that. And I think that's partly what makes it have resonance because no one's sitting there thinking Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna were thinking about how are they going to take down Donald Trump. I mean, in fact, in the beginning we thought maybe Trump would actually support our legislation. We were calling for transparency. It campaigned on it. And it's the fact that we've done this with survivors at the forefront that we've done it saying it doesn't matter if they're Democrats implicated and that we just want the files released is something about the non politics of it I think is also what has resonated with folks. And you know, it's just the, there's one thing we agree with in this country which is like you can't rape or abuse young girls. You can't do that to young American girls. Like there's something still sacred about that. You know, we, we've had womanizers as presidents and billionaires and you know, the country is very forgiving for a lot of things. But there's a line and that line is young girls, you don't do things. And when you have people who are doing that and getting away with just is a symbol for everything wrong, not just of elite impunity, but also the sense of people feeling that we've lost American values. We've lost the sense of people who went to church or synagogue and were in the community. And yeah, there were people who had affairs, but there was a sense of shame about it and there was a sense of accountability. And now you just have this globe trotting elite free from shame, free from the values that they, that people grew up with. And that. That's why I think this really strikes at the heart of what so many people in the MAGA movement were upset about.

[Bill Kristol]

That's so interesting. Well, I will thank you for taking the time you get. Maybe see your family a little bit here at the end of this weekend and, and then we'll all be back and will anything happen? I guess they can put out stuff in the next two weeks while you guys are gone. I mean, but what do you think? We.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

So I think they're. I think they're going to continue to put out stuff and I. What I would say to, to your listeners and viewers is please continue to be active on social media and calling out the inconsistencies. I mean, a lot of people are the ones who've pointed out that they put out a picture and then took it down. They had excessive redactions. All of that things is making them scramble and respond and they're obviously scrambling and responding. So Massie and I will continue to lead the charge. But to the extent the American people continue to hold them accountable, there's more chances that we're going to get more information. But Massie and I are not going to drop this. I mean, this is something we. It started out as something more intellectual for me and it became very personal given the time I've spent with the survivors and given their reaction. So this is something I'm deeply committed to.

[Bill Kristol]

No, that's. That's great. I can imagine it has become very personal, as it, as it should be from. For many, for all of us really, at some level. Right. I mean, as you say, it's a indictment of the country we've all lived in now for quite a long time and government of administrations of both parties. And so maybe really could be a turning point. Well, have a great holiday to the degree you get one if you can avoid. I'm sure you won't be entirely disconnected from work, but have a nice break and thank you for coming on today and thank you for what you've done, honestly.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Thank you, Bill. Happy holidays.

[Bill Kristol]

Happy holidays to you.

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