Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes
Episode: Ro Khanna on Trump’s Endless Epstein Stonewalling
Date: December 21, 2025
Host: Bill Kristol (The Bulwark)
Guest: Congressman Ro Khanna
Episode Overview
This episode features a timely and candid conversation between Bill Kristol and Congressman Ro Khanna regarding recent developments in the Justice Department’s handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case. Khanna, who spearheaded recent transparency legislation alongside Rep. Thomas Massie, discusses the ongoing frustrations with the Trump administration’s stonewalling, the bipartisan push for greater accountability, the significance of the so-called “Epstein class,” and the personal impact of his advocacy on behalf of survivors. The tone is urgent, at times incredulous, and deeply empathetic—underscoring the bipartisan outrage and gravity of what’s at stake.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. DOJ’s Insufficient Document Release
[01:52–04:35]
- Khanna: Despite legislation mandating transparency, the DOJ has withheld critical items: the 60 count indictment draft, the prosecution memo, and the full FBI files. Instead, they have provided either excessively redacted documents or “mythical document dumps” that avoid real accountability.
- Key Insight: Both Democratic and Republican lawmakers are collaborating to hold DOJ officials, including Trump appointee Pam Bondi, accountable—going so far as to threaten inherent contempt proceedings and daily fines.
“The problem is that we haven’t learned enough... They basically did not provide the documents that are most relevant... They have not provided the FBI files.”
—Ro Khanna [02:21]
2. Political Backlash and Administrative Panic
[04:35–07:19]
- Khanna & Kristol: Trump officials underestimated the bipartisan backlash. The initial pro forma compliance has amplified public and political anger, with even Trump’s MAGA base expressing outrage at Pam Bondi’s handling of the case.
- Notable Moment: After Khanna and Massie publicly threatened contempt on national TV, the DOJ scrambled to release a less redacted 119-page document, underscoring the administration’s reactive and clumsy response.
“They keep thinking... we’ll just do this kind of mythical document dump and people will move on... and it just increases the anger. It just increases the sense that someone is being protected.”
—Ro Khanna [04:35]
3. The Administration’s Mistreatment of Survivors
[07:19–09:19]
- Khanna: The government systematically ignored and sidelined Epstein’s victims, many of whom suffered additional trauma and stigma by being disbelieved and by the lack of legal action.
- Pam Bondi’s Snub: She cancelled a scheduled meeting with survivors on the day of the document release, opting instead for a generic, belated public appeal to survivors.
“You would think the first people Pam Bondi talks to is the survivors. They ignored [them]... it’s not a document case, it’s a simple case.”
—Ro Khanna [07:19]
4. Ineffectiveness and Erosion of Trust
[09:19–12:31]
- The administration’s inconsistent document releases and excessive redactions serve only to erode public trust further and make the political optics worse for Trump.
- Khanna highlights that even journalists and survivors’ lawyers confirm there are still unreleased documents directly implicating other powerful figures.
“They look weak, they look duplicitous, they look like they’re concealing things and they look incompetent, and it’s horrible for the administration... I’m just saddened because it’s horrible for government.”
—Ro Khanna [10:11]
5. Who Is the DOJ Protecting?
[14:01–16:47]
- Kristol & Khanna: There is uncertainty about Bondi’s ultimate motives and who she is protecting—including, but not limited to, Donald Trump.
- The hosts speculate Trump delegated the matter, but both recognize the stakes are high and the risk of exposure is fueling the stonewall.
“Who are you trying to protect and why? ...I understand why they’d want to protect Trump, but why are they trying to protect all these other people around him?”
—Ro Khanna [12:31]
6. Will Transparency Prevail?
[18:01–19:45]
- Khanna is optimistic that persistent bipartisan pressure and MAGA base outrage will force more disclosures in the current term.
- The metrics of success are clear: will the DOJ publish the original indictment, prosecution memos, and all survivor witness statements?
“We will see it now... because the response of the MAGA base has been just flabbergasted at Pam Bondi.”
—Ro Khanna [18:06]
7. The Survivors’ Courage and Social Class Dynamics
[19:34–21:42]
- Survivors were mostly from working-class and marginalized backgrounds, preyed upon because of their vulnerability.
- The impact of their continued perseverance and public testimony is profound, and their credibility now outpaces that of government officials.
“None of them came really from rich families...they were targeted based on class and vulnerability...they’re still living with that trauma.”
—Ro Khanna [19:45]
8. Bipartisan Partnership with Thomas Massie
[23:41–26:00]
- The unlikely left-right alliance between Khanna and Massie has historic roots in war powers debates; this time it succeeded in forcing action.
- Their humility, focus on survivors, and coalition-building stand in contrast to Trump’s narcissism, according to Khanna.
“Maybe in our politics, we need a little bit more humility...maybe we don’t need the charismatic showman. Maybe we need actually people who are going to make the American people at the front and listen and be humble and work in coalitions.”
—Ro Khanna [25:16]
9. The “Epstein Class” & Elite Impunity
[27:15–31:52]
- Khanna introduces the concept of an “Epstein class”—elites who play by different rules and have little concern for working Americans.
- He draws on Fitzgerald’s The Great Gatsby as a metaphor for elite indifference and blames this failure of governance for America’s political crisis.
“But here these people were raping folks on an island or watching them be raped and there were no consequences. And more broadly, it suggests elite impunity...”
—Ro Khanna [27:25]
10. National Resonance & the Moral Line
[31:22–33:28]
- Khanna posits that the country has reached a limit: “There’s one thing we agree with in this country which is like you can’t rape or abuse young girls.”
- The Epstein scandal has struck a raw nerve across party lines, symbolizing both elite corruption and the loss of American values around shame, accountability, and protection of the vulnerable.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Ro Khanna: “Who are you trying to protect and why?” [12:31]
- Bill Kristol: “It’s easier to maintain a stonewall than to do one of these rolling cover ups... It’s hard to manage these things.” [09:19]
- Ro Khanna: “It’s not just that these women have been abused and abandoned, [it’s] that to this day they aren’t being believed. And this is another slap in their face.” [19:45]
- Ro Khanna: “The cover up is usually worse than the actual crime. And this is what they’re doing.” [17:36]
- Ro Khanna: “There’s a line and that line is young girls, you don’t do things. And when you have people who are doing that and getting away with [it]—it just is a symbol for everything wrong, not just of elite impunity, but also the sense of people feeling that we’ve lost American values.” [32:24]
Suggested Listening Timestamps
- 01:31–04:35: Khanna explains the failings of the DOJ’s document release
- 04:35–07:19: Administrative panic and the reaction among the Trump base
- 07:19–09:19: Survivor mistreatment and lack of engagement with victims
- 14:01–16:47: Motives behind the continued cover up and confusion over who is being protected
- 19:45–21:42: Moving portraits of survivors and their struggles
- 23:55–26:00: The bipartisan journey with Thomas Massie and lessons for American politics
- 27:25–31:22: The “Epstein class,” elite impunity, and governing failure
Conclusion
Khanna and Kristol’s conversation is a powerful indictment of governmental opacity and elite privilege, rooted in the lived trauma of hundreds of survivors. It is also a rare example of bipartisan urgency and humility in the face of entrenched power. With public demand for answers mounting across party lines, this episode serves as both an exposé and a call to action for transparency, survivor justice, and the reclamation of public trust in American institutions.