Van Lathan (3:42)

Yeah. So that particular protest was interesting because I. A lot of my friends went and these are black people.

Tim Miller (3:50)

Black folks.

Van Lathan (3:51)

Black folks, yeah. I love folks. I love the term folks. A lot of black people win. There's a tension right now, though, and I think a lot of black Americans. I'm not going to speak for all of them, but I think a lot of black Americans are asking the question about what and how they should show up. There was. There is a sense of prescience for danger that exists for black people. We can see it and we can feel it coming. We have this sixth sense, or maybe this developed pro evolutionary trait to be able to see when something is particularly dangerous. And normally we're good enough to warn people as we're warning ourselves. Normally we're good enough to say, don't walk down that block. There's a guy down there. Don't do that. We don't walk down the block. Some of us do, but mostly we don't do it. But normally we're good enough to also tell other people, don't do it. Like this is going to sound so stupid. I'm sure you've heard the trope about black people in a movie theater seeing somebody about to do something crazy and going, don't go down there. That's because danger is not exhilarating.

Tim Miller (5:09)

Shouting at the screen.

Van Lathan (5:10)

You mean shouting at the screen, Right? Danger is not exhilarating for us. Danger is danger.

Tim Miller (5:15)

Yeah.

Van Lathan (5:16)

And there's attention right now, at least to where a lot of black people saw this danger that we were going to be in and saw how it would be particularly different than the first time we went through this and tried to yell at the screen of America not to go down that alley. People did it anyway. So there's a lot of people that.

Tim Miller (5:41)

Are wondering not to go down the alley of Trump 2.0. I'm just making sure I'm following the metaphor here. Of course. Trump 2.0 is the alley. Okay.

Van Lathan (5:46)

Trump 2.0 is the Alley. There are a lot of people that are going, hey, we try to warn you. We try to tell you. You didn't listen. Godspeed. Now, I do think that that's maybe being a little bit overplayed, but there is certainly, certainly some black people that feel that way.

Tim Miller (6:06)

Yeah. Okay. I have two. I have two questions. One is sociological. The one's like, what to do about it on the sociological side, I just got to tell you, I don't. I love. I don't fucking know shit. You're in this business. You're in the podcast business. I have certain things I'm an expert in, but a lot of things are happening, and I'm, like, popping my mouth off. So I don't mind when people are telling me, hey, man, you didn't think about it like this. And that's true. It was true sometimes. In this case, it's particularly true sometimes with the black experience in America. What bugs me, though, is, like, I had a lot of white ladies messages, me going, saying, hey, Tim, black people are tired. Black people are tired, and we gotta stand in for them. And there was something about that sentiment that just rubs me the wrong way. And I can't put my finger on why it rubs me the wrong way, but it does. It's just like a little bit of a speaking for an entire other identity part of it, like making excuses. I don't know what it is. How does that strike you?

Van Lathan (7:01)

I'm gonna be honest with you. I appreciate it.

Tim Miller (7:03)

Okay, cool. That's interesting.

Van Lathan (7:07)

How can I really articulate this? So there's just a part of me reflexively to where it's going to bother me. It's going to bother me anytime white people are speaking for black people. Because it just seems like when we start down that road, we never end up in a good destination. Right?

Tim Miller (7:26)

Yeah. Okay.

Van Lathan (7:27)

However, in this case, if the sentiment is, look, black people are tired of being protest mules or. Or they're tired of being issue mules, or they're tired of being particularly black women in this incident, should I say that? Always show up for America and show up to me for what's right in America. If they're tired for being a standard bearer of that, let's just pull a little bit of extra weight and do our part a little bit more. I mean, I don't have any problem with that. I would say that allies tend to speak with you and not for you. However, they weren't speaking to black people there. They were talking to you. So if they were giving you that. If they were giving you that. That perspective, whereas, you know, always rubs me the wrong way a little bit. I do think there's some value there. I think there's some value in them having talked to the black people that they share community with and. And getting some. Some information from them about what they're prepared to do. I don't know how long we can stay out of the fight. And I don't think that all black Americans, by any standard, are staying out of the fight at all.

Tim Miller (8:39)

Absolutely not.

Van Lathan (8:40)

Kalika went to the protests. I had other homies hitting me up, telling me, like, how we going to do it, how we're going to go to the protest. I think there's also something that exists to where I'll take myself, for example. I'll stop talking about all of black America. My vision and version of American justice is oriented through the black American struggle for justice. So I always think about, should I say, how hard it's going to be for us. I'm from South Louisiana, and my introduction to America was through disparity. It was through going to Maryland to hang out with my father and his family and just to kind of see the. The world that they existed in. And I loved it. I love being out home. I love riding. I love doing all of this stuff. But I used to look and I'll be like, why does this exist this way and not on the other side of Maryland? There was a guy that we used to go tend towards horses, and he had an electric fence around his horses. So if the horses touch the electric fence, it would buzz them. And he had this great big house and it was all manicured and it was all of that. There was a lot of money there, right? For us, we had a lot of stuff. But we were living at the country poor away the rural poor way. And I'm like, what's the difference? Like, what is this? And so the world was explained to me through a set of choices and priorities. The choices that weren't made for us and not priorities, the priority that we weren't. So when I think about justice, American justice, I think, how do people that are have nots become haves? And it's difficult for me to detach that particular struggle from other groups as well. So when I see it, I go, well, if due process is meant to protect us, then it's meant to protect everyone. If due process is meant to be the thing that stops me from stop and frisk happening or the police coming into here with a no knock warrant or whatever, these things that exist that are right on the fringes of it, I think that protects me. So it should protect you, whoever the you is. I think a lot of black people feel that way. I think we just have a problem with unfairness and injustice, and it's only so long we're going to be able to take it no matter who the target of it is. So I get the feeling of. Last thing I'll say I get the feeling of exhaustion, but I think once a lot of people catch their breath, we'll jump back into.

Tim Miller (11:20)

All right, so that's my question. And it's interesting that you say that you kind of broadened it out, because I wanted to broaden this out beyond black folks, because I don't even think I actually mentioned black folks in the thing because I was really thinking broadly about who was not there, you know, in a group that had a lot of upper middle class white folks. And it was a lot of the people that Kamala really struggled to reach. And so the broader point I made was a political point which is like, this was a good start, these protests, but there's still this nut we gotta crack, which is a lot of working class people of all colors, a lot of younger people are like not being activated at this moment by the kind of protecting democracy type of protest they are a little bit on the anti ice protests, I'll say, which is why I kind of put that in a separate bucket. But like the democracies have there been activated. And that's a lot of. Obviously it's a lot of younger men too. We've spent a lot of time talking about that. So I'm just wondering if you have any kind of thoughts on that. Like, what is not resonating there? What might, you know, what would you advise fucking Democrats who are like, man, I just don't know why I'm only reaching the, the NPR substack bulwark audience. You know, how do I get. Question that.

Van Lathan (12:29)

It's amorphous, it's, it's formless, it doesn't, there's no meat to it. Saying that we should fight, speaking to a certain group of people and saying that we should fight for democracy, it seems like the most important thing in the world. And it also seems like something that you don't really know how to distill. Like fighting for democracy is a big, huge thing. Democracy is the biggest thing in the world. But it doesn't seem like a direct piece of pizza, you know? It doesn't.

Tim Miller (13:04)

It's.

Van Lathan (13:05)

If you tell me right now, I'll give you an example of something that the right uses. They go, do you think that boys should play girl sports? And people go, no. And they go, well, the other side, that's what they want. Yeah, they want boys to play girl sports.

Tim Miller (13:19)

Very tangible. You think it might be kind of silly or a small group of people, but it's tangible. You get it? That's easy to understand, right?

Van Lathan (13:25)

They go, do you want to be rich or poor? Well, fuck it, I want to be rich. I mean, it doesn't even matter if the policies that are undergirding what they're telling you it are going to lead to that for you. Because it's not even about you being rich. It's about you being able to actually have food and sustenance and a living wage. Like right now, you know, how you going to work to be rich when you hungry? How you going to work to be rich when you don't have a living wage, right? But they tell you, they go, we're giving you a pathway to not to be Donald Trump, to be a big shit talking motherfucker who never has to say he's sorry and who has a gold toilet. That's what you want, right? That's what we. That's. You don't want all of this other stuff. You don't want Kumbaya. You don't want to sit around in a circle. You don't want to have to work to understand people. You want to be a big dick with a gold toilet. That's what we've given you.

Tim Miller (14:21)

I mean, that's small dick. But what.

Van Lathan (14:23)

Yeah, exactly. But you Know, it's so funny when he talks about that. He goes, hey, let me tell you, it's. There's no problems down there. It's so funny if you say, that's.

Tim Miller (14:33)

Not what Stormy had to say.

Van Lathan (14:35)

Right, exactly right. Storming, by the way, Baton Rouge.

Tim Miller (14:37)

Yeah.

Van Lathan (14:38)

Making a lot of difference.

Tim Miller (14:39)

We are br.

Van Lathan (14:40)

We are so it. Democracy. As important of an issue as it is, you can't put it on a T shirt.

Tim Miller (14:48)

Yeah.

Van Lathan (14:49)

It doesn't work in the same way. And honestly, I don't know what to say to those guys because I'm a humanist. So when. Yeah, I am. So when they ask me, why are you on the left? I go, because I don't think your grandmother should have to die broke from cancer.

Tim Miller (15:05)

Yeah.

Van Lathan (15:06)

That's what I say.

Tim Miller (15:07)

Right.

Van Lathan (15:08)

I'm on the left because I. I don't think that the police should be able to kill you whenever they want. I'm on the left because I don't think that the government should be able to tell you what to do with your body. I'm on the left because I believe in equality and upward mobility of all people and the destruction of hierarchy. That's why I'm on the left. But some of these guys like hierarchy.

Tim Miller (15:32)

Yeah.

Van Lathan (15:34)

They're alpha males.

Tim Miller (15:36)

Well, it's the nut we're going to keep trying to crack over the next couple months. If you come up with a good idea, you just let me know. All right. Before I lose you, I do want to talk about the Ryan Garcia thing. I refer. You know, I'm a sports guy. I do basketball and football, but like boxing, mma, this is out of my wheelhouse. My one boxing friend tells me that Ryan Garcia is or was an up and comer and kind of a big deal. I don't know what his status is. You could tell me about that, but he's this. He's American, from Cali, and he was a Trumper and he tweeted. He tweeted this. I'm going to read the tweet for people and then I want you to kind of tell me what you think about the whole story he wrote. I may have voted for Trump, but I can't stay silent about what's happening with ICE in la. These aren't just illegals or statistics. They're people. Hardworking immigrants, especially Mexicans, who pay taxes, raise families, build our communities, and are part of the people we love. Ripping them away from their homes is not just policy, it's pain. We can have borders without losing our humanity. I read that. I was like, shit, is there maybe, is there something here on immigration? I don't know, Joe Rogan talking out about the Venezuelans or this Ryan Garcia guy. I don't know. Or is this just a personal thing for him? I don't know. What do you make of the story?

Van Lathan (16:39)

There's definitely rumblings, right? There's, there's. I mean, Ryan Garcia is a fucking moron, I just gotta say that.

Tim Miller (16:46)

But hey, hold on. Morons coming to our sides. A good sign, I always said. I knew it was a bad. I knew it was a bad sign in 2024 when everybody's like, all the cranks and idiots are coalescing around one party. And I was like, well, shit, that's gonna be the majority.

Van Lathan (16:59)

Yeah, you need some idiots, right?

Tim Miller (17:00)

You need some idiots on your side. So we'll take.

Van Lathan (17:02)

And you also need to believe in the idea that, like, today's idiot is tomorrow's genius. Like, people just need to be informed, right? The reason why I say he's a. Is because Trump ran on this. He ran on it, he ran on it, he ran on it, he ran on it. And look, people talk about vibes. Here's the thing about vibes. Trump was a vibes candidate. I get it. But when people say that, there's something that they never talk about with vibes. Nothing is more fickle than vibes. Want you to think about it, Tim. You've been in a party where the vibe is great, everything is vibing, the DJ plays the wrong song, vibe killer over. Wrong person walks into the party, Vibe killer. Wrong memory gets brought up. Vibe killer. A vibe is very fragile. So when you vote on vibes, you're voting for fragility. You're voting for something that can change on a dime. You're not voting for something that has any structure to it. So Ryan Garcia, the entire time he was looking at Trump and going, that's a cool guy I can vibe with. He wasn't actually paying attention. So Trump was actually saying things that were going to impact his community very directly. And the same thing with all of these guys who thought that Trump was something different than the rest of the neocons who want war at the drop of a hat everywhere, and now are seeing the level to which he's willing to be engaged in u. S. Dominance over a region on behest of a foreign ally. They're seeing all of that and they're going, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. This is not what we voted for. But it is, it is. What you voted for. So I would say to Ryan Garcia and to the rest of those guys, maybe pay attention to the fine print or like you're going to find yourself in this situation as an American, but.

Tim Miller (19:01)

Okay, I'm with you on all of that. I guess I'm just looking for you to give me a little hope, which is, you know, I'm usually a downer on the pod, which is, is there something here? The MMA guy, I mean, like, you just, you're in this world more than me, right? Like where these guys are starting to like kind of be like, well, I didn't sign because there I kept saying to people like this crowd, the manosphere guys, the MMA guys, like, they're different than Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro. Like Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro are partisan ideologues. These bros just kind of signed up for something they thought that they were, that was, you know, cool or the vibes are good on. And so that means they're gettable. So I don't know, do you think that there's. Is this just a one off thing with this Garcia?

Van Lathan (19:38)

Real with them? You got to keep it gangster with him. You gotta, you gotta tell them straight up, you got over, you got played. You know what Ryan Garcia is used to? He's used to getting punched in his chin whenever he drops his left hand. That's what he's used to. That's how he learns. He learns by getting sat on the canvas. That's what he learns. That's the way you got taught to him. You can't baby these, which is what we've been trying to do. Ryan Garcia got played. He got used like an idiot. And now the pain of his community, because he's from the ie, I think the pain of his community is on him. He is one of the people that told those people to go out and vote for that guy without paying attention to the stuff. It's on him. It's his fault. And so to me, yeah, there is something there. You've seen Joe Rogan backtracking a little bit over the El Salvador stuff. He hasn't really been talking about the freedom of speech stuff, which is pretty interesting. I thought that, that, that would get him going a little bit, but he hasn't really dug into that. You see all of this stuff happening. Those guys are gettable, but they're not gettable about by dancing around it. You're not gonna nice them back into the situation. You're gonna have to talk straight to them.

Tim Miller (20:45)

Yeah, I'm gonna note Ryan Garcia's handsome. So is there any. Are there any lefty MMA or boxer guys that I could, you know, start to follow? Is there anybody, anybody speaking?

Van Lathan (20:54)

Nah, brother, it's the whole, bruh.

Tim Miller (20:57)

It's uniform.

Van Lathan (20:58)

The ufc, like a pit of maga, I'm telling you.

Tim Miller (21:07)

But that might be our path out. We just got to find one. We just got to go recruit one to be. Oh, there's one guy, lefty MMA guy, you know, so.

Van Lathan (21:14)

Philip Rowe. Yeah, Philip Rowe. Philip Philly fresh. He's kind of cool, you know, that's my guy. I wouldn't call him a leftist. He's cool. But in the combat sports era, you have to remember it's going to be hard for you to be a lefty when your goal is to beat somebody's face.

Tim Miller (21:37)

Muhammad Ali did it. I don't know.

Van Lathan (21:39)

Muhammad Ali was Sugar Shane.

Tim Miller (21:42)

Mostly was. Wasn't for W. I don't think Muhammad Ali. The only boxing names I got.

Van Lathan (21:49)

I don't know that Muhammad Ali would have been political in the way that I wouldn't call Muhammad Ali a leftist at all. He was.

Tim Miller (21:55)

I didn't mean leftist. I just meant, like, you know, culturally.

Van Lathan (21:59)

What we need now from the MMA UFC is whoever is a non straight up Nazi.

Tim Miller (22:05)

Yeah.

Van Lathan (22:06)

Like, we'll take them, we'll try to rehabilitate them. That's it. That's where we got to go there. Just non Nazis. We'll. We'll. We'll see what we can work with.

Tim Miller (22:14)

All right, you go recruit them. Van Lath and everybody go check out higher learning. It is awesome. It's more of this all the time, constantly. And you'll be back soon. All right, man. I appreciate you.

Van Lathan (22:21)

All right, brother.

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