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- [00:02]
Andrew Iger
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- [00:30]
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- [00:30]
Andrew Iger
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- [01:01]
Sam Stein
Sam Stein, I'm back from vacation, joined by Andrew Egger, who did not take vacation last week, did the week before. We're here to talk about Westmore, Donald Trump, the possible deployment National Guard to Baltimore and a little bit of like a true social hissy fit, I guess. I'll be honest, I've been kind of checked out. I haven't been really paying attention to the news cycle all that much. So Andrew is going to anchor this one and I'm just going to chime in with my thoughts when I have them. Andrew, take it away.
- [01:33]
Andrew Iger
Yeah. So let me, let me. Welcome back from vacation. Sam. Let me put this in a little bit of a context. It's great.
- [01:38]
Sam Stein
It's great to be back. I just want to be clear. I'm so happy to be back. I hated being on vacation. Checked out from the horror show that was the national news.
- [01:46]
Andrew Iger
Yeah. Welcome, welcome back. You're. You get to be up to your chin in national news again. Right away. It was bad.
- [01:52]
Sam Stein
I'd see some headlines here and there and I would just be like, oh, my God. And then I just close, I close the tabs. I couldn't go.
- [01:58]
Andrew Iger
So this is, this is a little dust up. Obviously, there's been a lot of, a lot of strife between Donald Trump and a lot of individual Democrats. Democrats. This one's Westmore, Westmore of Maryland, who is, is one of the guys who he's been getting in sort of online fisticuffs with recently. Explain to me why Baltimore crime and policing. Right. So Donald Trump has launched, launched federal troops into the streets of D.C. he's been talking about wanting to do that in a lot of different Democrat run cities around the nation. And one that he kind of comes back to over and over again as like an example of just like a true city with, with crime just really run amok is Baltimore. Merri. Now, Wes Moore is the governor of Maryland, and a few days ago he responded to Trump with a letter. He basically said, last week you responded to my concerns about the deployment of National Guard personnel for municipal policing in Washington, D.C. by insulting me personally from the Oval Office. So I wanted to write, says Wes Moore, in order to clarify the root of my frustration and extend an invitation for you to visit Maryland where we can discuss strategies for effective public safety policy. This is like the thrust of the letter. He's very polite. He's saying, look, you know, you're talking a big game about Baltimore and in fact, you've like cut a bunch of federal funding for, for us to like, you know, deploy city services and things like that. Despite these things, we've been making a lot of strides for crime in Baltimore. Violent crime is down in Baltimore. And I would invite you. Yeah, it's true. And Wes Moore says, I would invite you, Donald Trump, to come with me on one of my kind of walks through the city of Baltimore. So you can kind of see this for yourself. So it's a little bit, I mean, it's obviously a brushback, but it's a very different kind of brushback than we'd see from, you know, Gavin Newsom in the last few days where he's like, he's both pushing back strongly on the President's rhetoric, but also remaining kind of.
- [03:38]
Sam Stein
Like it's not an all cap tweet that's meant as a mockery. Right. I got you. Okay.
- [03:42]
Andrew Iger
Here's Donald Trump today on Truth Social. In response, Governor Westmore of Maryland has asked in a rather nasty and provocative tone that I quote, walk the streets of Maryland with him. I assume he is talking about out of control, crime ridden Baltimore. As president, I would much prefer that he clean up this crime disaster before I go there for a walk. Wes Moore's record on crime is a very bad one. Unless he fudges his figures on crime like many of the other blue states are doing. This is a new thing for Trump, by the way. He likes to talk about this a lot now. It's come out of D.C. he started talking about this with D.C. first that the numbers are just fake. So that's. We're just doing this from now on. I guess if Wes Moore needs help, like Gavin News Gum did in la, I will send in the troops, which is being done in nearby D.C. and quickly clean up the crime. He goes on and on and on. P.S. baltimore is ranked the fourth worst city in the nation in crime and murder. Stop talking. Get to work. Wes, I'll see you then on the streets. Also, and this is another thing we should talk about here because this is just a great little P.S. also, I gave West Moore a lot of money to fix his demolished bridge. I will now have to rethink that decision. Questionmark? Question? Thank you for your attention to this matter. Make America great again. President DJT so that's the, that's the latest broadside from Donald Trump to Westmore here.
- [04:52]
Sam Stein
I have so many thoughts on this. One is, first of all, I had my first interaction, or I guess my first view of the outsized military and National Guard presence in DC Today. Brought my kid down to the mall and there was a, you know, I don't know who was military, National Guard, whatever, a couple guys just patrolling, walking on the mall, looking bored, honestly. But that's neither here nor there in respect to this Trump, who is like the king of the churlish insults, getting offended that Westmore wrote this fairly Anandine letter is hilarious and ridiculous. Two is like, that's not his money to take back. I know he's going to do it anyway. He'll do it and whatever. But, like, that's not his money. Congress appropriated that money for the Francis Scotty Bridge. President Trump signed it into law.
- [05:39]
Andrew Iger
You don't, in a normal world, Biden signed it into law before Trump even got in, which is what makes it even crazier.
- [05:45]
Sam Stein
Yeah, it's crazier. Whatever. You don't, in a normal world, you don't rescind that money. And I wish the Supreme Court would just kind of like, you know, settle this once and for all. Be like, you can't do that. But whatever. Here we are. He's acting like a child and saying, I'm going to take back your bridge funds. But what good would that do Trump? I mean, you're going to actually hamper economic activity in the eastern seaboard because he didn't like Russ Moore's letter.
- [06:06]
Andrew Iger
That's what's so. I mean, that's one of the things, one of the 25 things.
- [06:08]
Sam Stein
This is all. Yeah, I know. This is all sideshow because what's really happening here is he's threatening to, you know, send military into major US Cities. I Mean. And it's funny, I was talking with someone about this history. I don't know if you. I remember when this happened with DC And I don't know if you felt the same way. And Bill, Bill Kristol, our colleague, was very like, you know, early on being like, this is bad. Like, this. I know people are trying to find some silver linings and maybe wait to see what happens. But, like, Bill was just like, this is bad. And this is like, you know, not just, like, borderline fascistic. It's like a playbook from. From a fascistic playbook. And I remember in the moment being like, is Bill like, you know, maybe Bill's overstating it a little bit. I'm going to. Bill was right. I honestly have come to the belief that Bill was right. And, like, the idea that they're going to send the military into Chicago, into Baltimore is crazy. And yet I wouldn't be shocked if he did it next week. I wouldn't be shocked if he did in a couple days. And I wouldn't be shocked if he did it because Wes Moore wrote this anodyne letter saying, just walk the streets of Baltimore. It's wild stuff. And for this. And I know I've talked a lot, but whatever, I'll talk because it's been a while. The other thing that kills me about all this stuff is, like, you know, the White House and J.D. vance and whoever is like, well, you know, look at the numbers in D.C. it's really worked. And I know the pushback has always been, oh, it's only been 10 days. Like, that can't be. Well, no, it's worked. If you send in, like, thousands of National Guard troops and DEA agents and FBI officials and I guess in the future U.S. military personnel, you better hope you get an actual reduction in crime. Otherwise they're not doing their job. But that doesn't mean it's worth it. That doesn't mean it's constitutional. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have adverse effects. I mean, DC Businesses are suffering right now. People are pissed. The city has this, like, really bad, bad aura right now where people are, like, legitimately scared to. To walk around. They don't like it. So, yeah, of course you're going to get a reduction in crime. Congratulations. Like, that's the easiest ever to up those resources and get a reduction in crime. Doesn't mean it's good policy. Anyways. Westmore went on to say that in his Face the Nation interview, and he made those points. And so I want to make them as well.
- [08:24]
Andrew Iger
Yeah. And let me just say one thing on that too, which is that every city in America goes through this triangulation, right. I mean, these are municipal police departments that for the most part are charged with, you know, attending to crime in, in every city in the nation. Right. And, and at the policy level for every single city, there's that triangulation. It's how much do we spend on policing, how, how sort of like pervasive of a police presence do we want and how do we triangulate that against things like, you know, you know, people's civil rights and, and, and all those sorts of things. And that, that goes double here because these, these are not municipal police. None of these people are, are people who are charged first and foremost with like, the well being of the residents of this city. These are all federal agents who report to the President who was elected by, you know, all, all the other states. And so it's like the, the D. DC residents barely get a say. You know, like they're DCs sort of unique.
- [09:18]
Sam Stein
Right. Like, because DC has, it doesn't have its own governor, so, and they have the home rule. So obviously Trump has some leeway here. He's got 30 days under the law and then Congress has to vote to extend it. He's just going to brush past that because what are laws to him? Right. But if you were to send the military into Chicago, which the Washington Post is reporting that he's planning to do, or the plans have been put together to do, I should say, I mean, that's. Now we're in like a really bad place.
- [09:47]
Andrew Iger
Yeah, that would be the moment. If any city but dc, where I think I would be totally inexpensive agreement with you and Bill, where it's like, no, like we're off the map here, like in terms of just pure power deployments. Because why aren't you in agreement?
- [10:00]
Sam Stein
Why aren't you in agreement about the dc? I mean, this DC stuff, like, what is it that has you a little bit more sort of reserved on it than Bill and myself?
- [10:08]
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- [11:34]
Andrew Iger
Just because of the unique status that you were gesturing toward of D.C. as a federal city, that by law he is allowed to do a lot more in terms of surging, in terms of federalizing the police department, in terms of pushing various troops in. A lot of this stuff I think is terrible policy. And even you could make the argument that some of it's illegal and that's gonna work its way through courts. But it's not the kind of like total in your face, like just brazen screaming illegality that it would be if he were to deploy, you know, especially non national guard troops in any of these other cities. And I think like the. So that's the big question right now for all of this is how much of this is him talking a big game like he always does with, without any kind of like sense of what the actual laws are constraining his rhetoric. And to what extent will he actually be willing to trample that down? And you're absolutely right that right now every, every indication from what they're saying is that they are gearing up to do this as many places as they want to. And they see these fights as politically advantageous even in they'll go for it for any little thing like this letter from Wes Moore. And, and that's a really dangerous place to be.
- [12:40]
Sam Stein
Why do you think he responded to the West Moore letter? I mean, it's like there's plenty of provocations there for him to pick up on. Maybe it was just that he saw something on tv. Honestly, it could be that. But like, the letter didn't seem particularly notable. Like, walk the streets of me in Maryland is like the most. It's like, it's like, like the classic political I tell walk the streets. In fact, Trump was supposedly going to walk the streets in D.C. chickened out, but he was supposed to do it. What do you, what do you think it was about Wes's letter that, like, God is go, yeah, I, I have.
- [13:10]
Andrew Iger
Been wondering this exact same thing because it does seem sort of strange. Part of me wonders if there's just something about Trump where he always tries to drag everything down to this level. Like, plainly, Wes Moore, in sending that letter, is trying to do politics on a more elevated plane than Donald Trump is, where things like the actual crime statistics matter. And you can, you can persuade even like a super hostile, super authoritarian president of the United States to, like, take your point of view into account and look at these facts and these figures that he's trying to hand him and come see for himself and all, like, to do this sort of like, hand in hand sort of thing. Like, like, maybe, maybe Wes Moore doesn't think that Trump would ever actually, like, go along with any of that. But plainly Westmore thinks Trump's not going.
- [13:52]
Sam Stein
To go along with.
- [13:53]
Andrew Iger
But maybe Westmore thinks there's, there's like an advantage at least in like, putting that publicly. Like, look, Donald Trump, come see for yourself. And Trump is, I mean, like, he, he only has the one speed, right? I mean, either he's buttering up an ally or he's like, coming down with thunderbolts on an enemy. Right? And I guess like, the, the idea is you try to drag Westmore down to this level and, and who knows? I mean, like, I, I don't think Trump even like, thinks beyond it. He just kind of punches and then he's like, that's going to work out well for me because it always works out well for me when I punch.
- [14:20]
Sam Stein
And the bridge stuff, the bridge stuff, I mean, it's just so ridiculous. Obviously. It's psychotic. I, I was thinking about it today. I know this is totally unrelated, but it did, it did sort of. It reminded me of like, the how with the Chevron doctrine and how conservatives forever were like, well, we should, you know, take away the ability of the executive agencies to interpret the laws and how they spend the money, because that's just giving too much power to these executive agencies to, like, basically interpret congressional Statutes. And then suddenly Trump's just basically saying, you know what? This bridge money passed it. I'll have the Department of Transportation cancel it, like, whatever. And not a peep. I'm sure there's not going to be a peep about it. It's just the way it is. But I don't know, for some reason, I was thinking about Chevron doctrine today. I don't know. I obviously vacation was weird for me.
- [15:12]
Andrew Iger
All of these people who, like, just hate bureaucrats. Like. Like, there are some people who have, like, this actual principled objection where it's like Chevron doctrine was making the executive branch too strong. But I think, by and large, I mean, first of all, a lot of people just haven't really heard of or cared all that much about Chevron doctrine. There's a lot of people who do care about Chevron doctrine on the Republican side, who. Their specific objection was, this gives the agencies too much power. And they're all Democrats. So it was like. And now Donald Trump's in there, he's cracking the whip, he's making these agencies do what he wants. And so let him do it. Let him ride, let him cook. The most insane thing about all this to me is just not just the fact that he's not allowed to pull that money, but it's like, it's not his money, but it's not West Moore's Bridge. You know, everybody needs work. It's an extremely important bridge. It was horrible when it collapsed. Giant. Giant commercial, like, I mean, for commerce and just for transportation. And like, it's the only way to get from point A to point B in that. In that part of the country. And it's just like the idea that he just reaches for any fucking thing that he thinks is like a political pain point. And it just doesn't matter what it's for or what it does or who else it hurts or who else it helps. All he cares about is just wielding these things against the people in his orbit. And that's the whole president. That's just how he does everything. So it's really striking.
- [16:28]
Sam Stein
It's crazy. It's crazy. I mean, it's really crazy. I mean, FEMA not paying for any disaster relief in blue states because it. They're blue states. And then going after almost not exclusive, but almost exclusively academic institutions in blue states, like the UCLA money, a billion dollars in funds for ucla. It's crazy, but that's where we're at.
- [16:47]
Andrew Iger
I gotta say one more thing, one more thing on this. Sorry, I know it's like, you've been gone so long, Sam. I got so many thoughts I gotta get off my. So I.
- [16:54]
Sam Stein
Shouldn't I be the one with the thoughts?
- [16:55]
Andrew Iger
I feel like. Yeah, come on, man, hit me. We can be here for an hour.
- [16:59]
Sam Stein
Sorry, go ahead.
- [17:00]
Andrew Iger
This is the only thing. We did a podcast last week about Gavin Newsom and, like, his strategy for hitting Trump on all this stuff. And what was your conclusion?
- [17:07]
Sam Stein
You like it or not?
- [17:08]
Andrew Iger
I have not been super taken by the whole Gavin Newsom thing, but the one thing I will say for Gavin Newsom. Go listen to the next.
- [17:16]
Sam Stein
He's just putting a mirror up to them. That's all it is.
- [17:19]
Andrew Iger
Yeah, definitely. But I think. And there's. There's something to be said for that, but I think that this fight between Trump and Westmore shows why a lot of people find it attractive. Right? Because. Because you see guy like Moore who is just trying to be, like, polite, right? And, like, normal and, like, operate on a. On a certain level that Trump is just never going to rise to. So why.
- [17:38]
Sam Stein
I want to summarize Westmore. I guess it's worthwhile to summarize Westmore's pushback here. He says, rightfully so, that policing in cities like Baltimore is more nuanced than sending the troops, and that you have a whole host of programs, including upping resources for federal law enforcement. Sorry, for local law enforcement that contribute to reductions in crime. And he has the receipts. They've had a 20% reduction in crime in Baltimore since his governorship began. And he told Trump, he's like, look, the stuff you're saying is performative, right? Like, you can send a National Guard, it might help, but it's not sustainable. It costs a lot of money, and it's not constitutional, and those things matter. And then on top of that, he said, look, come and see for yourself. Like, just walk with me. I do this all the time. Come and see for yourself. Like, you'll see that there is a nuanced approach that is working. Working here, which is totally fine and a completely acceptable type of response that you would get. And Trump just takes a sledgehammer to him anyway. So. To your point. Yeah. I mean, you can't reason with the guy, right? Like, there's not. It's not. That's not in the card. So why not try to, like, needle him?
- [18:50]
Andrew Iger
I think there's a lot of people who. Who take that exact train of thought, and they're like, yeah, so just. So just beat him up all the time and troll him back and all that sort of thing. I think if you're Wes Moore, the point here is not actually to send this letter because you think that Donald Trump is going to take you up on it. The point is to send the letter to kind of show people that there is in theory another way to go about this than the total zero sum politics only like power, only way that that Trump looks at the world. And I find, I find it very compelling, the kind of west, the sort of Wes Moore approach to this sort of thing. It will be interesting especially because, you know, both Gavin Newsom and Wes Moore are like people who are in theory in the, in the, the upper echelons when it comes to the 2028 Democratic presidential field. You know, horrible as it is for me to even talk about that right now. But it's, you know, it's two very different approaches to the same problem of this horrible pig man that we have as president. And it will be interesting to see as they kind of continue to develop these.
- [19:48]
Sam Stein
All right, man. Well, it's good to be back, I think. I'm not totally sure yet. I'm trying to figure it out. Honestly, it's so it's jarring to come back into it and it's going to be an adjustment for me, but I'm glad we did this. Andrew Iger, author of Morning Shots Myself Sam Stein, Managing under the Bulwark thank you guys for tuning in. Subscribe to the feed. Really appreciate it. And I'll talk to you soon.
- [20:24]
Andrew Iger
Sam.