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- [00:00]
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- [01:00]
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- [01:14]
Sarah Longwell
Homes Only hey guys, it's me, Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark, and it's Valentine's Day. It is a day of love and so I thought we'd bring you a conversation about, if not love, at least two dating among Gen Z. I'm joined today by Bulwark contributors Rachel Jan Faza and Sarah Matthews, and I think they found the perfect person to moderate this discussion. I think a 45 year old lesbian is exactly what this needs. So last week on the focus group podcast, Rachel and I talked about Gen Z Trump voters and how politics is affecting the dating pool, especially for younger Trump voters. Rachel, you're out with a Gen Z piece on dating that I don't fully understand. It's like mogging. I don't know what these things mean anymore. First of all, just to start, what is breadcrumbing?
- [02:01]
Rachel Jan Faza
Well, there's a lot of things that are very confusing about Gen Z dating for everyone, including the people doing it. Breadcrumbing is when you're sending sporadic text messages that are like leaving little trails of breadcrumbs behind you. There's not consistent or reliable communication. It's kind of just like little bits and pieces every so often that can really be leading people on. Honestly but you're not fully closing the book on the relationship altogether.
- [02:31]
Sarah Longwell
Is that a joke about leading people on with the breadcrumbing? Like, is that it's. It is. So it's like stringing someone along, Is that it?
- [02:38]
Rachel Jan Faza
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:39]
Sarah Matthews
You're like feeding them just enough to keep them interested, but you're not giving them fully satisfying them. So they keep coming back for more. But they want, they want to keep you around so they'll, they'll give you a little breadcrumb here and there.
- [02:54]
Rachel Jan Faza
Keeping the options open yet.
- [02:56]
Sarah Longwell
So not to be pedantic about this, but, like, that's not a new thing getting stringy. This is, this is a tale as old as time. Is it just that it's now there's like a digital way to do this and that's, that's the new. Or there's just new terminology.
- [03:12]
Rachel Jan Faza
Yeah, I mean, I think Gen Z has kind of come up with a dictionary of terms that define dating in 2020, whatever. And this is their way of describing this style of communication which, yeah, it might look different than in the past because it's on. It's with text or on Snapchat or sending dms. But I hear you. This probably has existed since the beginning of time.
- [03:37]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. Okay. Sarah Matthews, maybe just like, can you lay out for me broadly, like, what is the dating scene like? Or like, what are the quirks of Gen Z dating behavior that I might not understand?
- [03:51]
Sarah Matthews
Yeah. So technically speaking, I'm the youngest year for a millennial, but I think that because I'm right there on the cusp of both generations, I tend to find myself identifying with both. And when it comes to dating, sadly, I identify a lot with Gen Z and what Rachel laid out in her newsletter. I every single thing I can relate to. And that's probably because some of the men that I'm dating are in Gen Z. So I had an ex boyfriend who was three years younger than me. A lot of the more recent dates that I've gone on have been with guys that are younger than me. So I can relate to the Gen Z dating lifestyle. And so these terms like breadcrumbing or ghosting, when you just completely ghost someone and you don't talk to them, those are things that I definitely can relate to. And I think being in D.C. and being a 30 year old woman, I find myself to be in the trenches, as we call it. But the thing is, is that all my girlfriends in DC, 99% of them are single. And that ranges from girls that I'm friends with who are 25 to girls that I'm friends with that are 32. And all of us seem to be kind of experiencing the same dating culture where we find that there are a lot of men who don't want to commit and they want company, but they don't want companionship. So they want to keep you around, but they don't want to actually give in too much and do the requirements of what it would be to be a boyfriend or to be a husband. But they like having you around and they like the company. And I think too, with what Rachel found in her research and that I can relate to is that Gen Z women have a much higher standard for dating. So we're at a time where women are the most successful and independent that they've ever been in our society. And so we can be more selective. It's not like I need a husband anymore to help me open a credit card. I can be selective on what kind of man want to bring into my life because honestly, I have so much peace and I love my life so much that there is a very high bar for anyone that I'm going to bring into that life because I don't want you disrupting my peace. So you need to be adding value. And I think that that also is a contributing factor of why there. It's just been a tougher dating culture for. For us.
- [06:05]
Sarah Longwell
All right, Rachel, since now Sarah has alluded to it a couple times and I was just kind of jokingly opening up with the breadcrumbing. Why don't you just lay out for us the broader thesis of the piece and what you wrote about.
- [06:16]
Rachel Jan Faza
Yeah, so I wrote about basically how Gen Z is dating. This was from a Reality check, which is a qualitative survey that I do with a group of gen zers in our community. And basically it laid out that this is a very low commitment generation. And that's for a few reasons. I think one of the underrated pieces to this is that there's so much financial anxiety that plays into the picture of why people don't want to couple up, especially when it comes to young women. I hear from young women who say that they don't want to think about a relationship until they feel they can be financially stable on their own or have financial freedom. And Sarah was just talking about this. Young women are in a very position, different position today than generations in the past have been. You don't need to be dependent on someone else. And so they're very comfortable charting their own path and then slotting a man into it later on. And when it comes to young men, you know, we talk about the gender gap all the time, Sarah. We've spoken about this even just last week. And this is hard for young men to handle. I think, honestly, I think that young men, despite the fact that our societal norms have shifted, the expectations haven't. And so there's a discrepancy there. And it's hard for young men to not really know where they fit into this picture. But we hear from young men too, who say that they don't want to be in a relationship until they feel that they can handle it financially. And if you look at the state of things for Gen Z right now, the job market is really daunting. People don't know if their college degree is going to lead to the job that they thought it would. They don't know if they're going to be able to make ends meet. The idea of owning a home with a white picket fence is like completely out of the picture. And so people are questioning their relationship to marriage and family as a result. But then kind of on the nitty gritty day to day things, I think, you know, ghosting is still real, but breadcrumbing is more common. There's this idea of that people want to keep their options open. And I think social media plays into this 110%. Because, you know, social media gives the perception that there's always going to be more choice and more options out there. You can continue scrolling, even though we found that dating apps are kind of millennial coded and Gen Zers are looking to meet in person. When you're on Instagram and you're scrolling and you're already on TikTok, you see all these different types of people. And so it gives the perception that there's always going to be a different type of person out there and that you don't really need to settle down because there's always going to be options. And also there are really high expectations on what someone could look like. Also, everyone can edit their pictures and make themselves look like a different version of themselves, which doesn't match up with reality when you're actually going to meet someone in person.
- [08:50]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, so you're describing a couple of different asymmetries that are interesting to me. But I want to go back to sort of this thing that Sarah was saying because Rachel, you and I talked about this on the podcast. So, like there's the asymmetry of I can always do better, like the fomo and I don't know if that applies more to men than to women or if everybody has the same kind of fomo. Like, and fear of missing out is more like, there could be somebody of better for me, not, not just like emotionally better, but like hotter, richer, whatever. But the bigger asymmetry to me is, is like just the numbers, which is the political divide that we are experiencing creates. And I hear this a lot in the focus groups where there are a lot of conservative men, self identified conservative men who say they would like a committed partner and they would like, they'd like a conservative woman. And those conservative women seem to kind of have the pick of the litter with conservative men because there's a lot more conservative men than there are conservative women. But then like the opposite ends up being true too, where if young women do not want to date someone who might vote for Donald Trump, they start to be at like a numbers disadvantage. I'm remembering one of the funniest things anybody ever said to me is I went to Alaska one time and I was looking around and I was like, there's so many dudes in Alaska. Like I said, I was talking to a woman. I was like, you must be cleaning up here. And she was like, you know, the odds are good, but the goods are odd. And, and it sort of feels like that maybe like that, that, yeah, there's a lot of men, but not necessarily men that these women want or vice versa. Sarah, is that something that you see that there's just like a mismatch now that's sort of political and sociocultural?
- [10:36]
Sarah Matthews
Yeah, I think, as you were kind of saying, I think there's the one side of it where I do think it's both genders feel like, oh, there might be someone better who can come along. So they're, they don't want to commit because they always have that in the back of their mind.
- [10:49]
Sarah Longwell
And.
- [10:49]
Sarah Matthews
But then two, I think for the political and kind of social divide that we're experiencing right now, I know a lot of women who will not go on dates with men that are conservative because I do think that we've seen that growing divide between men are becoming more conservative and women are becoming more liberal. And so for them, they think that politics, it means kind of, at least in this day and age, it didn't matter as much back in the day. But now in Trump 2.0, we women are like, you know what? You're not with me on my bodily autonomy. You're for this guy who's a crazy person and who, you know, ICE is murdering people in the streets and you stay silent like, you don't align with my values. So I'm not going to want to go on a date with someone like you. And I think too that when it comes to dating apps as, even though they're not as commonly used now with Gen Z, I think that I do notice that with my friends and others who are on the apps that if you don't have your political affiliation listed on the app, then women just assume, oh, they're a conservative, and that's why they didn't put it. And so they immediately will rule a guy out over that. But I think that it has now become this sort of thing where it didn't matter as much. And I still kind of find myself at least personally, like, I'm not. I'm not going to ever rule out a guy that is a Republican. I still identify somewhat as a conservative nowadays, but like it, it would be really tough for me to want to date a hardcore MAGA Republican because I just don't think that we're going to align on our values. But I. So I think that that's where the, the issue is and why we have this, you know, male loneliness epidemic where they feel like, you know, sort of there's like this anger towards women because I think that women have a higher standard for, for what they want in the partner. When it comes to what you're providing me in terms of, you know, financial stability or what kind of person you are in terms of, I need to align with you on our values. And for a lot of women, that is rooted in who you vote for. And so I think that there's just a very strong divide, which also contributes to the dating culture being that much more difficult, on top of it being that people already have so many options out there, thanks to the dating apps, thanks to social media, and always feeling like there might be someone better.
- [13:13]
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- [14:14]
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- [14:44]
Rachel Jan Faza
Yeah, just to put a fine point on that too, in this era, politics equals values for so many people and especially for young women. If you look at, you know, the young men, women who have been shifting rapidly to the left, a large part of that is because of what the Republican party has done to reproductive rights and to abortion access. And that literally has to do with how women perceive themselves in their sex lives. Like the sex lives of Gen Z looks different than any generation of our mothers or grandmothers generations because we don't have the federally protected right to an abortion that our mothers and grandmothers did. And so as a young woman, when you're dating, if your potential partner isn't going to support those rights, that's really hard to stomach. And I think that's a large part of this political divide as well.
- [15:32]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, I guess I'm slightly tempted to ask maybe a, not maybe a too intimate question, but like when you say it impacts their sex life, like is Gen Z having less sex because women are saying like and is it because of that? Is it because of the reproductive rights issue or is it also because, I don't know, everyone's got a porn soaked brain now with Internet porn which by the, that wasn't around when I was your guys's age where like this was just a phenomenon that now because sometimes I do focus groups with parents around phones and Internet and I asked them about their biggest fears and for boys it is always porn. It is always that like they watch too much of it and they don't know how to develop healthy relationships with women. And then for girls it's like self esteem or even like, like, like safety, like genuine safety online. Do you think there's something different about men of this age that comes from like their relationship to sex being different and so much more influenced by like online stuff.
- [16:35]
Rachel Jan Faza
Yeah. And the way that women are talked about online and like this idea that, you know, if you look at a man's phone, like probably a picture of a woman in a bikini is going to come up. It's like so common and I am not naive. Like that obviously happened in the past. There were magazines. But it's so much more accessible and there's just so much of it. I think that's definitely changed how men perceive and talk about women. And also the expectation that doesn't match up with what the person actually looks like in person because a lot of there's a lot of editing and half the images are probably AI enhanced or made by AI altogether. It's like there's so much mess that goes into this. But I do think that there's a different relationship to sex for a few different reasons. And then one of those reasons also is that we're living in a post me too environment where there's a whole different conversation around consent. And so there's a lot of fear that comes from that, both from the perspective of young men, but also, of course, young women. Obviously consent is necessary and deeply important. But I think a lot of young men now are scared to go up to and approach a young woman because they're worried that they could be accused of this perception of all men are bad and they could be accused all of a sudden. So there's just so many dynamics that have changed how sex is talked about and it leads to less sex.
- [17:59]
Sarah Matthews
You know what I will say, commenting on it's somewhat in the same vein as this conversation, talking about how it seems like men watch more porn than men in, you know, in the past. And so it's become this hyper sexualized culture. It's so interesting because one of the first things I do and I know my friends do this too when I meet a guy, I we go through their Instagram following. If you're following a porn star out, if you're following a bunch of thirst trap Instagram models who post bikini pics and things like of that nature out because I'm like, it just tells me everything I need to know. And men, I feel like, are sometimes surprised that we do that. But like the. I'll be honest, the FBI should be run by women because we will find anything about you and we can dig up anything about you. And we're like, before I go on a Date with you. Like, you best believe I know, like, where you went to college, where you're from, like, all these things. Like, I have already done my research, but if I'm starting a relationship with someone or if I find myself interested in someone, I will look at that because it does kind of give me a little bit of insight into their mind that if you're following women who are posting that sort of content, then, like, I'm just not the girl for you. But I also think on the reverse end of that, we've seen in Internet culture this rise in the trad wife and women who are staying at home and homemakers and all that sort of content. And so men, they. While they're probably watching more porn, they also have this idea of, like, what the perfect woman looks like. And those two things are very conflicting. And so I think it's really hard for them then to find a woman that meets their ideal standards or what they're seeking in their partner. And so they. They don't like that. You know, there are women out there who are more independent and have higher standards for what they want in men, but then they also have, like, this perfect picture of what they want in a woman that just doesn't align with where majority of women are at in today's society.
- [20:02]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, I gotta say, there's a part of me that wants to tell both of you, like, what Sarah just described is a long acknowledged trope of, like, the Madonna and the. Right. Like, that's always the tension. And when Rachel talks about ghosting. We invented ghosting. Like, I don't know. This is. This isn't new. I think it's like, the problem with the Internet is that it takes all of the things that are normal and human, and it, like, both amplifies them to some degree and also, I don't know, puts them online for everybody to look at. Yeah, but I just think I'm. Yeah, but I'm not sure if it, like, the essentials are changing about who people are like young men wanting to keep their options open or liking company without commitment. I don't know that this generation invented that. And so you guys can push back on this. But I have sort of one final question, which is there's those years between sort of college and when you get married where, like, it is all very complicated and you are navigating lots of different people in your dating life. And at the end of the day, something happens. And that something is. You realize that in order to have kids, you're gonna maybe need each Other. And if you want to have kids, you know, this obviously isn't always the case. It's not how I did it. But I do think for a lot of women, they sort of. And men, they sort of hit an age where it's like, okay, I'll get serious about this now because I want to have a family. And do you think that's still possible or do you think that the trends that you're talking about are going to fundamentally alter the relationships between men and women in this country?
- [21:50]
Rachel Jan Faza
I kind of think it's both. And I think that for some these trends will stick, but for others, I definitely do hear from young women who say that they don't want kids now, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to want kids down the line. I mean, the other piece of that, though, is that you can have a child without a man in the picture. I mean, like. So I think that the options that are open now have changed kind of the possibility of what young people can see for themselves. But at the same time, I think I also do hear people who say, and it goes back to that, like, financial stability or just that they're not ready yet, but that maybe one day they will be. And then again, I think, you know, I had one young man in this reality check who said, like, simply, he thinks a silent majority of people just aren't dating because they're just not interested. And so I'm curious to see what happens to that pool of people who have kind of just said, like, this isn't for me, I'm not doing it. And we've seen that we're seeing the declining birth rate not just in the United States, but around the world. So I do think, you know, it'll be time will tell. We don't yet know, but it's not really looking like it's going in the best direction.
- [22:56]
Sarah Matthews
I was going to bring up the same point, as Rachel said, about the declining birth rate. And we know that this is something that J.D. vance and the Heritage foundation are really big on and they wanna promote, you know, saving the American family and all these things and trying to boost marriage. But then I can speak from my own personal experience that even though I'm not an active user on dating apps, I've been on three dates in the last two years. More often than not, when I do get bored. And if I do decide to scroll, I will see men who are 32 years old and their relationship says, looking for a short term relationship. It's like, buddy, what are you doing here? Like, don't you need to be getting married and settling down and starting a family soon? But that's just the thing is with this generation of younger millennials and Gen Z, they don't want to start a family yet because they either have a fear of commitment and, or it's that financial stability aspect of it. I mean, when you have Trump out there proposing things like a 50 year mortgage rate, it's like, yeah, great, awesome. Like I'll never be able to own a home at this rate. And so that kind of thing is terrifying. It's like if I, if I feel like I, I'm not in a financial place to be able to own a home, then how can I even think about wanting to start a family one day with someone and have a wedding and you know, for men, buy an engagement ring? It's like there are so many things that come with it. And so the affordability crisis that we're experiencing in this economy, it does bleed into this then where people feel like, oh, well, I'm just not ready to settle down yet because I just don't have it all figured out yet. And like, once I do and once I get that next job, then maybe I can meet someone and then I can think about settling down. But I just think it's laughable when, yeah, if I'm looking on these dating apps and I see these older guys that are older than me who say looking for a short term relationship, it's like it goes back to what I said about they want company, but they don't want companionship.
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- [24:52]
Sarah Longwell
You know, I do think it's funny. It sounds like there's kind of a couple of things like in my, our parents generation, my parents generation, nobody waited to be financially stable before they had kids. Like you just got married and were poor. I think like, I think like people were. And so now there seems to be both an expectation of being set financially and like marriage was part of sort of. And why isn't that still the case? Actually because part of the reason people got married was to make that it was a more stable financial relationship. Why isn't that still the case?
- [25:28]
Rachel Jan Faza
It's a good question. I honestly, it doesn't come up in when I have these conversations with young people, I ask them, like, what are you looking for in your future? I very rarely hear that they want to get married so that they can have two incomes and, you know, join their finances together. I think a large part of that is this idea of independence and such an individualistic Generation, like, we've all had this device in our hands our whole lives that, like, forced us to be our own brand. And so when you bring someone else into the picture, you're. They're part of your brand now too. And I think that turns a lot of people off. There was this piece in British Vogue in the fall about why having a boyfriend is cringe. And it was from the perspective of a young woman. And it was talking about this idea that, like, a lot of young women don't want to date because it, like, ruins their version of themselves. I think that's part of this why, you know, marriage, which, you know, is when you bring two people together and you form your family and you're coming together as one. I don't think many as many. There still, of course, are like, I just got engaged, but I think.
- [26:35]
Sarah Matthews
Congratulations.
- [26:36]
Rachel Jan Faza
Thank you. But what I'm hearing is that there's less of that desire in part because we've all been taught that, you know, you're looking after yourself. This actually came up in our reality check to where a respondent said that they, you know, our generation has been taught to prioritize self care. And if you're prioritizing self care and yourself and you come first, like someone else doesn't necessarily always fit into that picture.
- [27:01]
Sarah Matthews
No. I saw that British Vogue article and it was sent around my group chat of, like, my single female girlfriends. And we do joke about it with, like, our few girlfriends who are either engaged or married and that the married girls will acknowledge. They're like, we know it is cringe to, like, have a husband, but it. So that that is such part of the culture. And like, it's not that it's like, yeah, not frowned upon, but. I don't know the way to put it, but just that, like, I think the idea of, like, getting married and having a husband and stuff, it, it. It's not as desirable nowadays for Gen Z women and younger millennial women because they know that, like, they can have a very, like, peaceful and happy life with or without a partner based on their relationships with their family or their friends and their job. And it's not that they don't want those things. Like, we, we always talk about that. Like my single girlfriends and I, like, I do want a husband, I do want a family. I'm just not willing to settle to make those things happen. And thankfully, I'm in a financial position where I'm able to support myself in the meantime until that right person does come along. But I think that there is like that single tax that we do pay as a result. I mean, it would be so nice to share rent, you know, and split rent with someone. But I'm not willing to compromise on that just to have a partner to do that. Because I know that at the end of the day, when I do start that family, I want it to be a man that is going to be someone that my children can emulate and take character traits from and be the best father that I could want and hope for for them. So I'm just not willing to settle on it. So it. Even though it might be another, you know, five, 10 years until I meet that person, and maybe kids won't be in my potential future plan, I just am not willing to compromise on it because I want to make sure that whoever that person is that I'm bringing in is going to be up to the standard, which I think it just. It's not. Yeah, I think for past generations, they were getting married younger. And I also was thinking about this the other day too, where it gets tougher the older you get because, you know, your, your brain fully develops at 25. And once you're in your 30s, at least, you know, speaking, I guess, on the younger millennial side of this, I know that, like, I know myself and who I am. Your 20s is all about learning who you are, whereas I think when you get into your 30s, you have a real sense of self. And so now it's like, I don't need to waste my time with someone who isn't going to be up to my standards. And in your 20s, you can have fun and experiment and spend that time, you know, dating around and doing things. But I think that there's, I think that Gen Z women also recognize that. And so they're using their 20s to learn about who they are before they want to kind of enter into a relationship with someone because they value that independence. And so they really want to, like, make the most of their 20s and use those years to be selfish because they know that, okay, well, once I get maybe into my 30s, then I'll be at that point and ready to settle down with that guy. And hopefully he'll be in the same place in life.
- [30:18]
Sarah Longwell
Well, good luck on all of that.
- [30:23]
Sarah Matthews
Trust me, I need all the good luck and well wishes. Send it my way. Because I am in the trenches. Ladies in D.C. dating, I gotta say, when.
- [30:32]
Sarah Longwell
When Rachel was just saying, like, well, you know, you don't need a guy to have kids. That's totally true. But you do need at least four Adults to raise them. Like. Like, once you're on the other side and, like, you're in the bunker on the kids and everything. It's. It's. It's a lot of work. It's a lot. They need a lot of things, so. But anyway. Well, listen, I hope you guys have great Valentine's days. I do know Rachel's fiance is a good dude, so, you know, not all men. We got good dudes out there, man. Gives me hope. And now that you're an Internet star, Sarah, I'm sure that there's plenty of. Plenty of nice, smart, bulwark men out there who were interested in what you had to say about, you know what? Dating.
- [31:18]
Sarah Matthews
Before we sign off that you bring up a funny point. 1. If a guy messages me on a dating app, I don't even want to tell you how many times they've led with, so I recognize you from Ms. Now or I recognize you from the bulwark. And I'm like, oh, next. Like, I'm like, I don't want to talk work with you. And if you recognize me in any sort of way, then probably not. Not the best warning to everyone watching. I know. Warning.
- [31:43]
Sarah Longwell
Those are the best men. Come on. Like, maybe the best.
- [31:47]
Sarah Matthews
True. They are the best. But I'm like, maybe don't lead with it if it can come up later down the line. But then it becomes like, oh, are they just, you know, infatuated with the idea of someone rather than really, like, actually being interested in me, if you get what I mean. I hear that. I hear that.
- [32:04]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. But I struggle with that, too. It's like, is it. Is it just because I'm. I'm famous on YouTube? Like, is that the only reason? Yeah. All right, guys. Happy Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day to all the bulwark listeners out there. I hope you all have a great time and find love or solitude or Netflix or whatever it is you do. We'll catch you next time.
- [32:25]
Realtor.com Advertiser
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- [32:55]
Rocket Money Advertiser
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- [33:12]
James (No Such Thing As a Fish)
Hello, America. It's your new favourite podcast here. Yes, it's James and Andy, two fourths of the British podcast no Such Thing As a Fish. That's right. We do facts. We do weird facts, fun facts, facts you've never heard before. James, give us a fact. Did you know you may be able to cure chronically blocked noses with a snot transplant? Lovely, lovely fact. If you want to hear us, go to wherever you get your podcast and search for no Such Thing As a Fish. That's right, we'll see you there.