Bulwark Takes - Episode Summary

Episode: Sen. Cassidy Said RFK Jr. Would Not Change Autism Guidance. Now What?
Date: November 21, 2025
Hosts: JVL (Bulwark) and Jonathan Cohn

Overview

This episode dives into the alarming changes made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to its public stance on the non-existent link between vaccines and autism. The discussion explores the scientific consensus, the politicization of public health agencies, and the dangerous consequences for public trust and public health. The conversation also scrutinizes RFK Jr.'s influence, Senator Cassidy's role, and the larger trajectory of governmental institutions as their scientific integrity is eroded for political ends.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. CDC’s Shift on Vaccines and Autism

• What Happened:
  The CDC changed the language on its website, moving from an unequivocal statement that "vaccines do not cause autism" to a hedged claim that "studies have not ruled out the possibility."

• Why It Matters:
  This subtly validates anti-vaccine conspiracy theories and undermines decades of scientific evidence.

  “The claim that the studies have been ignored, not paid attention to, is just wrong.” — Jonathan Cohn [01:38]

  • The origin of the autism-vaccine myth traces back to the discredited Andrew Wakefield study, which was retracted and led to professional consequences for Wakefield.
  • Multiple forms of vaccine-autism arguments (thimerosal, aluminum, number of vaccines) have all been thoroughly debunked by scientific reviews.

2. Distinguishing Government Science from Political Rhetoric

• Politicians vs. Trusted Institutions:
  The CDC, as a "gold standard" agency, is supposed to be above political gamesmanship. When scientific authorities echo political misinformation, it fundamentally damages trust.

  “It is different for the CDC to... be a trusted vector for information. And this is kind of new territory…” — JVL [03:54]

• RFK Jr. and the Anti-Vax Movement:
  Anti-vaxxers, led by RFK Jr., are fundamentally opposed to all vaccines, not just concerned about autism. Attribution to autism is a convenient attack, not a core belief.

  “If there was no link between vaccines and autism, they would still be against vaccines. They don’t like vaccines. Period.” — JVL [04:23]

3. Eugenics Rhetoric and Stigmatizing Neurodivergence

• Eugenics Undertones:
  There’s recognition of a disturbing, implicit desire within some anti-vax circles to “cleanse” or marginalize autistic individuals, mirroring dark historical ideologies.

  “There is a eugenics component to this which is the attempt to make neurodivergent people out to be a dysgenic class of people.” — JVL [06:33]

  “You know, Kennedy is this big believer in what he calls natural immunity... there’s a sort of a sense that, well, you know, some natural selection taking place, we kind of cull the herd a little bit... which is, you know, it’s horrible.” — Jonathan Cohn [08:11]

4. Politicization and Hollowing Out of Federal Agencies

• Staffing and Leadership Changes:
  Key CDC roles, once held by senior career scientists, are vacant or filled by political appointees aligned with RFK Jr. or Trump, threatening the integrity and credibility of the institution.

  “There’s an office of the director of CDC vacant at the moment... All of them, they were all per, the rest were all career scientists. They are gone and they've been replaced with political appointees.” — Jonathan Cohn [10:23]

• Comparison to Authoritarian States:
  JVL compares the situation to China, where official data is strictly managed for political ends. He warns the U.S. is moving towards a model where information is only trusted if one's own party is in charge.

  “This is how authoritarian governments are run… there are political commissars... We don’t publish any data or studies that don’t comport with the political project.” — JVL [12:27]

5. Long-Term Impact: Crisis of Trust

• Trust Once Broken:
  Restoring credibility to scientific agencies and government data is an immense challenge. Once undermined, trust is difficult and slow to rebuild.

  “Trust doesn’t work... like trust has to be right every time. And once it’s broken once, it takes a long time to put it back together.” — JVL [13:20]

  • Future Scenario:
    The hosts wonder how public health or economic data can be credible if trust depends on which party is in power.

    “How do we live in a world where you can trust economic data put out by the government when one party is in power and when the other party is in power, we have to turn that off and no longer be able to trust economic data.” — JVL [13:50]

  • Hope for Restoration:
    Jonathan Cohn suggests hope lies with remaining career officials and the need for a bipartisan effort to restore trust, but acknowledges the difficulty.

    “Somehow you rebuild some of that trust and hope that maybe... the Republican Party decides actually this is not in their interest either, that there’s enough people, grown-ups there who say we don’t want this going forward…” — Jonathan Cohn [15:24]

    “In order for trust to be rebuilt, you need a Republican administration which is committed to rebuilding public trust in the functions of government. And I think that that project is actually wholly antithetical to the current Republican project.” — JVL [16:21]

  • Communication and Mistakes:
    Scientists and public health officials must also reflect on communication failures during the pandemic but cannot alone solve the crisis of trust.

    “[Maybe] there are ways to sort of reach out and sort of... kind of rebuild some of that, there is some measure of this that falls on the scientific community, figure out how to at least communicate better...” — Jonathan Cohn [18:29]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Science vs. Uncertainty:

  “Science can’t prove that it’s impossible that I will fly tomorrow... But I can’t prove that I absolutely won’t have it in the morning. That’s not how it works. And yet this is the standard that they’ve adopted.” — JVL [05:23]

• Riff on Neurodivergence:

  “Once you start looking for it, you see how, like, everybody’s a little bit neurodivergent in some way. Right. Maybe not you, you’re a very even keeled guy.” — JVL [07:27]
  “Oh, I wouldn’t assume that.” – Jonathan Cohn [07:39]

• Warning About Political Capture:

  “We've got a couple high profile cases of this now. But trust doesn't work... Like trust has to be right every time. And once it's broken once, it takes a long time to put it back together.” — JVL [13:20]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• CDC Website Change Explained: [00:32–01:38]
• Scientific Debunking of Autism/Vaccine Link: [01:38–03:54]
• CDC’s Unique Responsibility: [03:54–06:33]
• Eugenics and Anti-Vax Ideology: [06:33–08:48]
• Politicization and Leadership Changes at CDC: [09:55–11:00]
• Authoritarian Comparisons and Data Manipulation: [12:27–14:50]
• How to Rebuild Trust: [14:50–17:48]
• Responsibility of the Scientific Community: [18:29–19:40]

Tone & Takeaways

The hosts maintain a clear, urgent, and sometimes sardonic tone throughout, lamenting the erosion of public trust and the dangerous normalization of politicizing science. They are particularly alarmed at the CDC’s capitulation to anti-vaccine rhetoric and are deeply skeptical about the possibility of reversing these trends without a fundamental shift in the political project of the Republican Party. The episode is a call to vigor in defending scientific institutions and a warning against complacency.

End note:
Jonathan Cohn and JVL close with resigned humor—“it’s pretty thin, but I guess we’ll take it”—and urge listeners to remain vigilant as they wish America good luck in facing these challenges.