Sen. Warner on the Boat Strike Crisis

Summary

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Bulwark Takes – "Sen. Warner on the Boat Strike Crisis"

Date: December 7, 2025
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Senator Mark Warner (D-VA, Vice Chair of Senate Intelligence Committee)

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Overview

This episode features Bill Kristol in conversation with Senator Mark Warner, focusing on the September 2nd boat strike and the subsequent crisis it sparked. Their discussion centers on the decision-making, legal justifications, congressional oversight, and broader implications for U.S. military and intelligence operations. Senator Warner recounts high-level briefings, scrutinizes the administration's shifting narratives, and raises alarms about the politicization of national security.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sen. Warner’s Briefing and Initial Impressions

• Warner met with General Kane and Admiral Bradley in a confidential setting to discuss the strike.

  "I was the last interview and I was the only member in that meeting... we had a very candid conversation." – Warner [02:23]

• Felt the session was more open without others present.

2. Chain of Decision and Legal Process

• The underlying policy enabling the strike was decided in late July, but the formal legal opinion wasn't finished until after the strike.

  "The legal opinion was not even fully drafted until September 5th, three days after the September 2nd strike." – Warner [03:07]

• The execution order and real-time communication details remain murky.
• Raises doubt about whether Adm. Bradley and others had updated legal clarity during the strike.

3. Questions About the Operation Itself

• Senator Warner stresses the need for all facts before drawing harsh conclusions, especially regarding potential war crimes.

  "Anyone that jumps to conclusion on that before you have all the information is doing a disservice." – Warner [04:13]

• Points out a legal stretch in equating drug running with terrorism or imminent threats.

  "Equating basically any drunk person with the equivalent of an ISIS and Al Qaeda... is a pretty legal bit of a stretch." – Warner [04:33]

• Casts doubt on the narrative that individuals remaining on the boat post-strike were a continued threat:

  "...these individuals who were holding on to this boat were somehow still in the fight really stretches anybody's imagination." – Warner [04:38]

4. Video Release and Transparency

• Warner calls for full public release of the strike videos, noting only limited snippets have been shown.

  "For them to now say, we're going to show you the first strike, but somehow the balance of the next hour with the subsequent strikes is somehow classified. Yeah, that doesn't pass any smell test." – Warner [05:57]

• Dismisses any strong national security justification for withholding the rest of the footage.

  "I see nothing here that would display any kind of sources and methods... when they put these videos out in the first place." – Warner [07:29]

5. Chain of Command and the Role of Secretary Hegseth

• Adm. Bradley took over after the initial strike; Secretary of Defense Hegseth left the operation room early.
• Warner suggests that policy and direction from the top created a scenario with little room for alternative approaches.

  "Are all these strikes simply to kill not just the first, but all the subsequent ones as well? ...Do we really want to have the policy of America against drug runners that kill, kill, kill is the first, second and third priority?" – Warner [12:43]

6. Congressional Oversight and Approval

• The administration neither sought congressional authorization explicitly nor kept Congress fully informed, in contrast with previous counterterror operations.

  "Never vetted with Congress and never authorized by Congress, unlike previous military actions against terrorists." – Kristol [05:40]

• The War Powers notification was sent two days post-strike, but no follow-up for sustained action or funding.

  "He continues to make claims about closing the airspace or he might strike the land, he's asked Congress for nothing." – Warner [22:45]

7. Legal and Moral Implications for the Military

• Warner voices deep concern over the American military being placed in positions with ambiguous legality, potentially exposing service members to accusations of war crimes.

  "People will view this and could potentially view this as against international law. Oh boy. We're putting our military in the potential for legal jeopardy that we just... It is disrespectful." – Warner [18:04]

• Stresses the risk to morale and the need for lawful, clearly articulated policy.

8. Broader Policy Context, Hypocrisy, and Strategic Questions

• Questions the focus on Caribbean cocaine when most flows are via the Eastern Pacific; also, administration pardoned a key foreign drug trafficker while escalating lethal operations against boat smugglers.

  "The hypocrisy of going after these guys. At the same time, the President pardons a convicted drug dealer who is the former Honduran president..." – Warner [21:19]

• Asserts the buildup toward Venezuela has no transparent rationale or congressional debate.

9. Degrading U.S. Intelligence and National Security Institutions

• Warner recounts the politicization and mass firings in the intelligence community, including the ODNI, NSA, DIA, and the FBI’s counterterrorism units.

  "We could end up seeing people consciously or unconsciously start to shade the product to try to meet the approval of a political agenda. And that makes America less safe." – Warner [28:07]

• Allies have signaled they may no longer trust the U.S. as a partner in intelligence sharing.

  "Our best allies like the British, the Dutch, are publicly stating they're not sure they can share intelligence with us anymore." – Warner [29:01]

10. Transparency, Accountability, and Alarm about the Future

• Warner and Kristol both mourn the absence of congressional action or even adequate debate.

  "The degree, I think of lack of people say transparency, that's not even the beginning. Accountability and just even visibility into what's happening. I find it, it's pretty astounding." – Kristol [32:26]

• Warner highlights that the new National Security Strategy pivots away from China and Russia toward the Western Hemisphere and culture wars, leaving the U.S. ill-prepared for critical technological rivalries:

  "This document focused almost exclusively on the Western Hemisphere... spends more time about, you know, culture wars in Europe than how Europe can be our partner." – Warner [32:49]

• Warner closes with a direct appeal to both parties for responsible, legal policies that protect both national interests and the men and women in uniform.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Legal Opinion Delay:

  "The policy was decided in late July. The legal opinion was not even fully drafted until September 5th, three days after the September 2nd strike."
  —Senator Mark Warner [03:07]

• On War Crimes Accusations:

  "That is such a serious accusation that I think anyone that jumps to conclusion on that before you have all the information is doing a disservice."
  —Senator Mark Warner [04:13]

• On Video Transparency:

  "For them to now say, we're going to show you the first strike, but somehow the balance of the next hour with the subsequent strikes is somehow classified. Yeah, that doesn't pass any smell test."
  —Senator Mark Warner [05:57]

• On U.S. Military’s Position:

  "My belief is that the admiral and the troops were put in, frankly, a fairly untenable position."
  —Senator Mark Warner [04:18]

• On the Hypocrisy:

  "The hypocrisy of going after these guys. At the same time, the President pardons a convicted drug dealer who is the former Honduran president..."
  —Senator Mark Warner [21:19]

• On the Intelligence Community:

  "We could end up seeing people consciously or unconsciously start to shade the product to try to meet the approval of a political agenda. And that makes America less safe."
  —Senator Mark Warner [28:07]

• Bill Kristol on Transparency:

  "The degree, I think of lack of people say transparency, that's not even the beginning. Accountability and just even visibility into what's happening. I find it, it's pretty astounding."
  —Bill Kristol [32:26]

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Key Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Topic | |----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:30 | Introduction: Bill Kristol welcomes Sen. Warner | | 02:23 | Warner’s private debrief with generals/admiral after the September 2 incident | | 03:07 | Policy timeline confusion and late legal justification | | 04:38 | Evaluation of the strike video and the war crimes question | | 05:57 | Debate over releasing the full strike video | | 07:29 | National security concerns and video transparency | | 09:30 | Execution orders: Who decided, and when? | | 12:43 | The core question: Was "kill" the default mission? | | 16:09 | Missed opportunities for intelligence/capture; the alleged second boat | | 18:04 | Potential for international law and war crimes risks to U.S. service members | | 21:19 | Critique of administration's focus and alleged policy hypocrisy | | 24:33 | Congressional oversight and lack of transparency | | 26:16 | Warner on the politicization and gutting of the U.S. intelligence community | | 29:01 | Allies questioning intelligence sharing | | 32:26 | Kristol & Warner: The breakdown of democratic oversight and accountability | | 33:58 | National Security Strategy: China and Russia deprioritized | | 34:34 | Warner’s closing concerns—moral, legal, and operational | | 35:50 | Conclusion |

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Tone and Style

The conversation is direct and searching, with Warner measured but frank about his concerns. Kristol echoes the urgency and the sense that this represents a significant departure from established norms in both congressional oversight and military/legal accountability. The tone is sobering, occasionally incredulous, but ultimately focused on the responsibilities of policy makers and the risks to American principles and security.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is an essential listen for anyone concerned about the rule of law in U.S. military operations, congressional checks on executive power, the politicization of intelligence, and the larger strategic direction of U.S. foreign policy. It offers insight into both the technical and deeply human costs of a crisis still unfolding, with Senator Warner providing a rare, candid look inside the ongoing debate.

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Transcript

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[Bill Crystal]

Hi, Bill Crystal here, editor at large of the Bulwark. Very pleased to be joined today by Senator Mark Warner from my home state of Virginia here. I guess home, if you live, if you lived here 40 years, you can call it a home state, right, Mark?

[Senator Mark Warner]

I think that's about, I'm about 45 years in.

[Bill Crystal]

Okay, good. And, and vice chair for today's purposes, formerly chair, now vice chair depending on which party is the majority of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Very well respected, I will say, for your work on that committee by people of different persuasions and both parties and really want to talk about the current moment, the particularly the boat strike on September 2, but then the whole campaign and broader questions you've raised and a couple of very interesting floor speeches about where we are in our intelligence community. So thank you for joining me. I know how busy you are. So you were there Thursday, I think, one of what, six senators, maybe six members of Congress who had.

[Senator Mark Warner]

I was, I was the last interview and I was the only member in that meeting. And it was, I felt it was a little more free flowing. Even General Kane, the chairman.

Because I wanted to get into some of the particulars, asked a lot of the folks to leave. So we had a very, I think a good candid conversation.

[Bill Crystal]

Oh, that's great. So you spent, someone told me you spent about an hour with, with the chairman, General Kane and Admiral Bradley and as you say, very few steps. So what did you learn and what do we need to know about what happened on September 2nd?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, I learned that.

The overall policy predicate that went into this has got real questions.

The policy was decided in late July. The legal opinion was not even fully drafted until September 5th, three days after the September 2nd strike. So I had questions of whether that policy had changed. That was a document that we didn't get in the Congress until late November. And the video itself is.

Chilling, grim, whatever term you want to use. And one of the things I've been hesitant to reach.

Even though I know what I saw and I have huge questions, enormous conclusions, yet there's still the execution order, there's still the communications the admiral had with.

The folks who were firing the shots. Because in my view, Beldham, some of the most biggest claims that this could put us into the category of war crimes. That is such a serious accusation that I think anyone that jumps to conclusion on that before you have all the information.

Is doing a disservice. And I think that.

My belief is that the admiral and the troops were put in, frankly, a fairly untenable position.

And the underlying basis.

Equating basically any drunk.

Person with the equivalent of an ISIS and Al Qaeda and that the idea of drugs are the equivalent of having bombs or guns, you know, it's a pretty legal bit of a stretch of an argument. And then the whole second part, and this is where what the public sees this video, I think they will be, it's pretty chilling that these individuals who were holding on to this boat were somehow still in the fight really stretches anybody's imagination.

And so, you know, there's the actual video, then there's the legal basis. And I need to get more on the legal basis. You know, there the fact was the second strike, and the second strike was three additional strikes took place 30, 45 minutes after the first strike. And you know, I will accept the fact that, you know, Admiral Bradley made that decision. That's why I want to get the information before I make a judgment whether that was a good decision or not. But the underlying legal arguments and policy, which frankly has never been fully vetted with Congress, for that matter. The American people really is pretty suspect.

[Bill Crystal]

That's great. Well, let's go through all these different aspects. Never vetted with Congress and never authorized by Congress, unlike previous military actions against terrorists. You know, so let's just. On the video you said, I think when we see. When we all see the video, do you believe they will release the complete video?

[Senator Mark Warner]

I don't know how the President said he'd be happy to release the video. You know, the fact that this group is, you know, use these videos, frankly, as they thump their chest and show. Isn't this great for them to now say, we're going to show you the first strike, but somehow the balance of the next hour with the subsequent strikes is somehow classified. Yeah, that doesn't pass any smell test. So we're going to keep pressing them. I think the Congress needs to see it, frankly. I think the American people need to see it. So they have already started hedging their bets. But this is not something I'm surprised at. Again. Remember, Hegseth claimed total responsibility and then not dissimilar to the signal gate escapade earlier in the year. Once there's any controversy, he tries to avoid responsibility. On signal gate, he wouldn't even participate with the inspector general. Now on the case of this strike, it seems like he is trying to throw Admiral Bradley under the bus.

[Bill Crystal]

Wow. I want to come back to that. One second. But just on the video. Yeah. What is the. I mean, if they had not released anything, it seems to me, having been in the executive branch many years ago, but still there might have been. I mean, it's conceivable there would have been national security grounds and others for not releasing certain videos. I mean, sources and methods or, you know, operational whatever, you know, don't want to give away what we know and how we do these things to enemies, though. This is not like the Soviet Union. We're talking about a bunch of truck smugglers. Like truck smugglers. But still. But once you release part of it, how do you not release the rest of it? What's the consent? There's no. I just want to clarify. There is no national security.

[Senator Mark Warner]

There is argument. Right. I saw the video. You know, there were lots of parts where I think there was just that they lost the boat visibility. You know, I don't. I've seen a lot of these videos over my time as chair and vice chair. I see nothing here that would display any kind of sources and methods. And the idea that they, you know, they lost all ability to make that argument, I think when they put these videos out in the first place. So now the idea that they're suddenly trying to change the rules, it is not untypical for this administration. But I do hope all of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle will keep pressing on them because it's just.

They love this policy. They claim it's great. Well, show the American people and show Congress and I think people will, I think the human judgment people will make is going to be pretty, pretty stunning because they would make the argument that if, and there were subsequent strikes where people were in the water and in the water they were viewing shipwreck sailors and they were actually picked up. The idea that somehow these guys were still on this boat and, you know, getting it back in the fight doesn't pass the smell test. But again, I want to get all of the, the information, documentation, because it's not just about hegsef, it's about how our military will be viewed. It's about, you know, Admiral Bradley, who's had a distinguished career, how our military will be viewed in America, but also for that matter, in the world. And this is, I'm not going to rush to any judgment on this.

[Bill Crystal]

No, that certainly makes sense. So just to be clear about what happened on September 2, I take it Secretary of Defense Exeth is in the Pentagon somewhere watching this. And I, and he sort of boasted at one point that he, he, this was his decision. He wanted to be there and take, he was taking responsibility. So I, maybe he was literally the target Engagement Authority or in any case, he sort of certainly signs off under, gives that first order. I take it, Admiral Bradley, that's what.

[Senator Mark Warner]

The written execution order, as well as the written JAG opinion, the legal opinion that was, that was a documentation as well, which we've not seen.

[Bill Crystal]

So you haven't seen that yet. And that's something that you should see.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Specific, jagged. We've seen the overall legal opinion.

[Bill Crystal]

Right?

[Senator Mark Warner]

The, oh, and see, that was not, you know, was decided July 25th was not written until September 5th. And again, I don't think Admiral Bradley would know. But I, I need to know, you know, in light of what happened with this strike, because it's pretty compelling because of the time between the first strike and the second strike. And there were even people in the room, I think that were raising concern for these guys trying to surrender. Did they change the legal opinion? Because the last few pages of the legal opinion go into great detail about how American military should not be held liable. And you wonder whether that was written after the September 2nd strike.

[Bill Crystal]

That's kind of depressing, honestly, but very important to find out. So just to be clear, I don't think this is at all. There's no reason this should be classified. So Admiral Bradley, he's not in the Pentagon, though I assume he's down at Tampa at.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Yes, I believe he was.

[Bill Crystal]

I believe he was at Special Command. At Special Operations Command. Yeah.

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[Bill Crystal]

So they're in touch and they be. Obviously they will secure video conference. The Pentagon's very good at this. And they begin the operation. And then just since there's been so much publicity about where Hicks. When Hegseth left and what he was doing, he leaves after a few minutes.

[Senator Mark Warner]

And here's the part, listen, I'm not a fan of Hexath. I think he should resign. I've called for that since the signal gate. But I do want to be accurate. The first strike took place. There was then a period somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes. And you know, you could assume that the first strike might have completely destroyed and killed anyone. It wasn't anti personnel strike. It was not an attempt to sink the boat because we saw that flame come out in the smoke. So there was a period of time before you got visibility regained and the fact that these survivors were there. So as much as not a fan of Pete Hexap, it's not unreasonable to think that he saw the first and then, you know, didn't come back for the timing of the second.

[Bill Crystal]

But he doesn't, of course, as you well know, he doesn't have to come back. I mean, it might be that Admiral Bradley might have wanted to get in touch with them, which they can certainly do with in about 25 seconds with secretaries of defense on secure phone. It's not like it's like Hexef goes into some meeting and can't be reached with his, you know, military aides and civilian aids and so forth. But you have the impression, or Admiral Bradley said that Hegseth at that point is not making the decision, it's Admiral Bradley's decision to go ahead.

[Senator Mark Warner]

That was how it was conveyed that, you know, the decision in terms of subsequent action was left with Admiral Bradley. But it again goes back to.

The underlying. Was the mission, right? First and foremost to kill everybody? Because it clearly wasn't a mission to like interdict the boat. And it clearly, it didn't seem to be a mission to.

You know, retrieve the drugs. There was no effort made to retrieve the drugs. So are all these strikes simply to kill not just the first, but all the subsequent ones as well. And then it only becomes, you know, if you're not 100 effective, you know, how much further should you go if there are survivors? So again, this goes to like, do we really want to have the policy of America against drug runners that kill, kill, kill is the first, second and third priority? And again, I'm unclear.

And that's why I want to see the execution order or the or not the execution order. People will hear that and say, well, is that what the second flight strike was? No, the order to execute the whole activity sets out the parameters. I've not seen that. That should be in writing.

[Bill Crystal]

And then the after Think about the.

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[Bill Crystal]

Action Report I suppose there should be a real account of what happened when and so forth. I mean you would think back in the days of the real counterterrorism fights, if I can put it that way. Which are which? There was a lot of that and you were. You knew a lot about it. If there were people were wounded or just incapacitated, I believe we saw a we didn't think we should kill people who were wounded. I mean, we captured many, many terrorists, many horrible terrorists who were, you know, we didn't think we could just execute them. And in fact, people were prosecuted for that when people got in Iraq and Afghanistan. But secondly, that's a chance to get information. No, I mean, to question them and find out, well, who's in charge of this whole operation? Where are the drugs on land? How much more of this is there? Where is it? I mean, you'd think you'd see this as huge opportunity to take them captive. Worst case, you imprison them, presumably the way we do the Coast Guard has been doing for years when it captures people or send them back home, as we did for some reason on October 16th. But.

I just find it kind of amazing the idea that we would just kill.

The point was to kill everyone. Is that really consistent with that?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Got to drill down on this. And then in this particular case, there was the claim that they were going to meet with a second boat. There was no evidence that there was ever a second boat. But if you do assume there was a second boat that might have been bigger and kind of higher up the food chain, wouldn't you wait to do the interdiction? Or even if you say military strike, wait till they get with the second boat.

[Bill Crystal]

Right. So that's what's kind of amazing, right? This is like, typical. You want to go up the chain and. And now maybe they said, I read somewhere they didn't feel they had the authority to kill the people on the second boat. But of course, we have a very big Coast Guard and Navy who could presumably interdict it and hold it even if we aren't going to kill them. And that's why, I guess I, I come back to the kill order, apparently. I mean, that seems to have been their. Their presumption. Not just the presumption. I've read one of the reports was that that was they had a list of people who were eligible just to be killed or something like that.

[Senator Mark Warner]

I. I have not that. And, and again, this, I do think, you know, they make the claim they knew who, who all the 11 were. And I accept, again, the fact that they knew some of the people were making the communications that were the, you know, the really bad guys. Simply having the names of the others, though, doesn't necessarily mean that they were all, you know, narco terrorists. So again, this all is. Is why.

I don't want to jump to a conclusion, why I want to get the facts, why I want to give the, you know, the admiral and all those involved. But it kind of again goes back to the whole premise. If. If we've not made the case to the American people, if we've not made the case clearly to Congress, if we don't have an authorization of use of military force, if there are these actions where. Where right or wrong.

People will view this and could potentially view this as against international law. Oh boy. We're putting our military in the potential for legal jeopardy that we just. It is. It is disrespectful. And again, that probably Bill is the thing that has been the tone for as much as they. These guys thump their chest and say we love the military. You know, this is the guy that put our pilots in harm's way. Hag stuff. I'm talking about in terms of the strikes in Yemen through the signal gate. This is the secretary of defense who's fired general after general for political purposes, the head of the nsa, the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, many others. This is the guy who brings everybody into Quantico and lectures him on military behavior. And then.

This is the ultimate anti Harry Truman. Where the buck stocks here. There seems to be a controversy and immediately Hegseth is moving to fog of war. I wasn't in the room or I'm not taking responsibility.

What this is what I fear this is doing to the, you know, just the morale. And these are incredible warriors, you know, protectors of our country. We owe them. We owe them. We owe them responsible policy and we owe them legal policy. And I can't say in this case they got either.

[Bill Crystal]

Now that's so that's powerful. I mean, the fog of war thing, incidentally, there have there obviously this often is the fog of war, exchanges of fires. You're not sure if the person next to the terrorist you've identified is another terrorist or a hostage of a terrorist or a relative. You know, and then there are these very split second decisions a lot of our soldiers and officers have had to make in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that, you know, there one has some understanding that that's very difficult. This actually is the opposite of the fog of war. I mean, we have total visibility. These people are zero threat to us. They're literally a thousand miles away from our coast. You could have waited a day and taken care of them later. Right. They're not going anywhere. I mean, and that was true of the original boat and all these boats. This is the least. I don't want to minimize the pressure on someone like Admiral Bradley. I understand this is still Very difficult and, you know, operation with a lot of judgment calls. But these operations are the most straightforward in a certain way. We're pulverizing these little speedboats with our very advanced weapons, with the capacity to call on the Coast Guard and the Navy to help, you know, and so forth. And so we need to really, if we can't get this right, what could we get right? I guess that's been my sense.

[Senator Mark Warner]

The point was, as you said, we had time to follow the boat. We, we took the first action. There was a period of time and again, if people see the video, you know, there, there were indications of whether these guys were surrendering or, or, or potentially, you know, so called waving to somebody else or the, you know, there's no evidence there was a second boat. And they even paused again. So, you know, to your point, this is the opposite of, you know, you're in a firefight and people react very quickly. This had the time for judgment.

[Bill Crystal]

What about the overall campaign? So it's continued. Hexeth announced another strike. They slightly changed their mode in the sense that there were a couple of survivors whom they delivered back to whatever country. But mostly we've just been killing people.

Is Congress. Do you think Congress will act? Well, is this just going to be an unauthorized war for the next three years? I mean, what's going on?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Here's the remarkable, remarkable thing. I mean, you know, this whole policy is supposedly about, you know, narco terrorists bringing drugs in. And by the way, none of these drugs are fentanyl. This is all cocaine. Number two. The vast majority of the transit of cocaine from Colombia, Ecuador, comes through the eastern Pacific, not through the Caribbean. It's overweight. It's not even maybe five, six, eight to one. Eastern Pacific. You have this effort in the Caribbean and the hypocrisy of going after these guys. At the same time, the President pardons a convicted drug dealer who is the former Honduran president, who, who was one of the masterminds. Is hypocrisy beyond belief. And the point I want to make on this is we can argue about narco terrorists and how what, we should go after them. In that case, we should go after the ones that are doing the most damage, which are in eastern Pacific. But then also this seems to be tied up to a policy that I'm aware, unaware of what the policy is vis a vis Venezuela. And the President has asked for no authority to strike Venezuela. Now. He built up with this flotilla that is huge amounts of American military presence. And he continues to make claims about Closing the airspace or he might strike the land, he's asked Congress for nothing.

So the idea that in normal cases, War Powers act kicks in when the President has to act quickly and then you give him a 30 day grace period because usually it's in reaction to something. You know, this has been the most obvious buildup of military capabilities maybe since the first Gulf War. And yet the President has not asked Congress or gone to the American people and say, here's why we need to take out Maduro. And let me quickly say Maduro was a bad guy. And one of the many mistakes Biden made was when the Venezuelan people voted overwhelmingly against Maduro. The Biden administration put virtually no pressure on Mexico, Colombia and Brazil when we could have pushed him out. So I'm not excusing what Biden did, but boy, oh boy, that doesn't mean it's a rationale for a full fledged invasion unless you make the case to the American people in Congress.

[Bill Crystal]

Yeah, as you well know, two days after the strike, on September 2nd, September 4th, they did send a war powers notification to Congress, which in a sense is acknowledgement that, okay, the clock's ticking and we need to get authorization for this. And then when the 60 days ran out in beginning of November, I suppose it was, it turned out okay, forget about it. We don't need to, we don't need any congressional action, any congressional appropriation, I think of all the, not just the aumf, but all the fights over appropriations in Iraq and Afghanistan and all the debates about.

All the congressional oversight. I just, it's really astonishing to me. I've got to say that there's been none of that really. I mean, no public testimony, no providing you with, with all the documents you would need to make judgments. The, the, the, the Justice Department report you mentioned is, is classified for some reason, even though presumably it's an interpretation or parts of it they could redact. But a lot of it is an interpretation of legal justification for war, which is kind of important for the American public to understand though.

[Senator Mark Warner]

And again, so many of these things. As a member of the so called Gang of Eight, we're supposed to get off, even if the whole intelligence community, armed services, we're supposed to get a lot of this. We've had, I think, one Gang of Eight meeting at this level that didn't answer all my, our questions. And I just, you know, they finally went ahead and released the legal opinion to all of Congress. I'm not sure why that can't be released. All of America.

[Bill Crystal]

Yeah. Do you Think your Republican enough Republican colleagues will decide that Congress should act one way or the other or at least understand what's happening or at least understand what's happening in public hearings and with testimony and documentation and that the public should also understand or not. I mean.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, my biggest disappointment my whole time in public life from being governor and senator is I absolutely believed that my Republican colleagues, who I know love our country, everybody as much as I do, would have on at least national security items would have drawn the line. And there's been lots of private conversations I've had. Well, Mark, you're right, Mark, you're right. Even when senators in markets like you are conscience, I don't want the ear darn conscience. And this is more towards like the undermining of the integrity of the intelligence community. And so far people have not stepped up. I do think the armed services leadership on both the House and the Senate, they at least push to have this, this briefing and see the video. I hope and pray that that is a sign of more to come talk.

[Bill Crystal]

About the intelligence community. You've expressed a Laura about what's happening there. Will they still be able to willing to speak truth to power and give a couple of major floor speeches? That's your. You've been so involved in that sphere for quite a long time now, Billy, since you got to Congress almost, I think. Or. Yeah. To the Senate.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Yeah.

[Bill Crystal]

So what's going on there and how worried should we be?

[Senator Mark Warner]

I have.

I didn't have an intelligence background. I was a tech guy and a business guy. But boy, I have been so impressed with the men and women of the intelligence community, their integrity. They are not political. You know, you have the hardest job. You got to tell the truth to your superiors regardless. Because when we corrupt our intelligence, bad things happen. So, you know, we saw this early on and I think Hegseth is over, over his head. I also think Tulsi Gabbard's never been put in. We saw in terms of early days where people with secret identities, those identities were being revealed. We saw when there was a lot of, you know, kind of riffing in terms of the intelligence community point out, you know, it takes about $250,000 to train a CIA agent. If you're suddenly eliminating those new agents, you know, we're wasting money and we're as well. If you give away their identities, they can't go undercover. We've seen early on senior level members of the intelligence at the ODNI who reached different conclusions about the drug gang trend and maduro that didn't meet the political needs of the President. They got fired. And then we saw through the summer it just ramp up enormously where, you know, the general in charge of nsa, Tim Hawk, great professional, gets fired arbitrarily. Jeff Cruz, the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency and a series of other intelligence officials basically get thrown out because they wouldn't cook the bucks. In many ways, the Defense Intelligence Agency, this was the group that did the first analysis, the Iran strike, and they said it was a very powerful strike, but because they wouldn't use the words obliterated, they get fired. I fear that.

We could end up seeing people consciously or unconsciously start to shade the product to try to meet the approval of a political agenda. And that makes America less safe. And that's just on the intelligence side. We've seen some of the military activities. We've also seen almost a complete dismantlement of senior leadership at the FBI, including more recently where upwards of 25 to 45% of the agents who do counterterrorism, counter espionage, you, frankly, sex crimes have been taken off those duties and stuck as extra bodies on immigration rates and make America safer. And I just, you know, we've also seen, I guess, final comment make on this is that our best allies like the, the British, the Dutch, are publicly stating they're not sure they can share intelligence with us anymore. That's not good news for America.

[Bill Crystal]

And that's one year.

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Into the administration.

[Bill Crystal]

I mean I guess what so alarms me and I don't think people have focused on, I think it was sort of sense a few months ago. Okay, they've come in, they've done a lot of things you didn't approve of and people like me didn't think were very wise at all and pretty deplorable. But okay, that's sort of a first spasm and now we're going to go back to something resembling responsible governance. But as you said, it seems like it's success with the firings, the just the attempts to intimidate the politicization of all the national security elements of the government really that's not slowing down. Hasn't been, has it?

[Senator Mark Warner]

Seems to be speeding up and you know, because what it's also meaning is many cases our best people are leaving on their own choice and you can't replace that, you know, multi years of experience. I mean I think virtually every section head of the FBI has been fired and that's just not.

It'S just so untenable. Things that are happening in our country right now, I never thought would happen. And I again I hope and pray that you know, the level of unease from a lot of my Republican friends is growing. But they gotta be willing to not just talk to me, but they gotta be willing to say okay, no more, no month.

[Bill Crystal]

Okay, well I hope you persuade them. And you think that. I mean I do think at least the step of releasing the information, whatever they're going to end up saying or doing in terms of, you know, policy and confirming new appointees and insisting on more accountability and public testimony, all the things that we used to take for granted, you know, I mean.

At least let us know what's happening. I just, I just find it, I can't get over how it sounds. I mean I think back to the Iraq and Afghanistan, God knows mistakes were made and stuff but you know, we knew mistakes were being made because people knew what was happening and John McCain, who I was close to and you were close to too, was able to criticize Rumsfeld and others in 2003. 4. Because we knew what was happening in Iraq and we knew that, you know, in our view, there weren't enough troops. Other people thought we shouldn't have been in there in the first place, whatever, but it's not. That was a real debate that a democracy is supposed to have. I mean, here we. The degree, I think of lack of people say transparency, that's not even the beginning. Accountability and just even visibility into what's happening. I find it, it's pretty astounding.

[Senator Mark Warner]

And as you know, and you know, you gotta be a nerdy guy like me and you that. But, you know, there's this, this national security document that just happened the other day. You know, the national security document that was released during Trump 1. I agreed with 90% of it. It accurately called out China, it called out Russia, it called out our technology competition. This document focused almost exclusively on the Western Hemisphere, which frankly in America has under. Under focused on, but not to the, not to the exclusion where this document barely mentions China or Russia spends more time about, you know, culture wars in, In Europe than how Europe can be our partner. You know, I, I feel, you know, one of my overarching issues is technology competition with China. We've never faced, you know, Soviet Union was a military and a ideological competitive. China is at least a military competitor, but we've never faced the nation, a great nation like China that is investing in every technology domain at the level and rate we are and in some cases better. And this national security document barely.

Spends any time on that.

[Bill Crystal]

And the policy so far. I mean, for all the talk about China and being hawkish on China, it doesn't seem to me as a layman that the policies are very tough on China.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Well, many things you are, Billy. I've not call you a layman in this field.

[Bill Crystal]

Oh, well, I don't know, but it's. It is. I, you know, anyway, another topic which we'll have to discuss that some other day in China, but, but this is a very urgent topic and some people tell me, oh, well, this is just, you know, it's fishing boats. It's unfortunate, maybe we're killing these people, but I do feel like once you start down this road, it doesn't get contained in one place or one instance. Right. I mean, once this gets legitimized, you're in a different world in a way than we used to be in.

[Senator Mark Warner]

You're right. And Again, you've got the legitimacy of the policy. But if we accept without any debate, the policy is kill them all regardless. And if you then have settings where based not upon simply our rules of contact, but international law rules of contact. And I even hate to mention the term war crimes. I mean that is not where America should be. And you know, a lot of these sailors and others are home ported in Virginia and Norfolk. And I'm getting calls and letters saying, you know, I don't want my kid one in harm's way without.

Rationale. But two, I don't want my my kid, son or daughter potentially put in something where they may be in legal jeopardy. That's just not fair. It's not right. And again, it shows in my mind it shows a level of disrespect. An administration that claims that it's so pro defense, but then doesn't seem to treat our military services or intelligence community with the respect they deserve.

[Bill Crystal]

Well, that's a slightly depressing but important note to end on. So Senator Mark Warner, thanks so much for taking the time to join me today. I really appreciate it.

[Senator Mark Warner]

Thank you Bill.

[Bill Crystal]

Thank you all for joining us.

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