Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "Supporters Furious With RFK. Jr Over Measles Vaccine Statement"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Bulwark Takes
• Host/Author: The Bulwark
• Episode Title: Supporters Furious With RFK. Jr Over Measles Vaccine Statement
• Release Date: April 8, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, hosts JVL and Will Sommer delve into the recent controversy surrounding RFK Jr.’s public statements on the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. RFK Jr., a prominent figure in the anti-vaccine movement and current head of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), has sparked significant backlash from his supporters after making what many perceive as a moderate endorsement of the MMR vaccine—a departure from his usual stance.

RFK Jr.'s Statement on the MMR Vaccine

The episode begins with JVL introducing the controversy:

JVL (00:53): "RFK Jr has gotten himself in a little bit of hot water. He made the controversial statement via tweet that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine is the best way to prevent measles. And this has made his supporters want to set their hair on fire."

Will Sommer elaborates on RFK Jr.’s unexpected shift:

Will Sommer (01:42): "RFK obviously is a famous vaccine anti-vaccine activist, vaccine critic and of course he's now runs the, it runs HHS... RFK on Sunday gave sort of the most lukewarm endorsement you could possibly imagine for what every sane person knows, which is that the MMR vaccine for measles is absolutely something every child should get."

RFK Jr.'s statement, perceived as "milquetoast" by Sommer, contrasts sharply with his prior vehement opposition to vaccines, leading to confusion and anger among his base.

Reaction from Supporters

The hosts discuss the backlash from RFK Jr.'s supporters, highlighting key responses from influential anti-vaccine figures:

Will Sommer (04:09): "A woman named Sherry Tenpenny, who is an osteopath, who's sort of like a big, big player in the anti-vaccine world... she was really mad that he described the vaccines as needed."

Another notable reaction comes from Liz Wheeler, a former host for One America News, who expressed her disappointment:

Will Sommer (04:47): "She was saying, you know, what happened to Bobby Kennedy? He used to be so based. You know, it says like cool and he's not based anymore."

These reactions underscore a fracturing within the anti-vaccine community, where RFK Jr.'s concession is seen as a betrayal by some key figures.

Possible Reasons for RFK Jr.'s Shift

JVL probes into the motivations behind RFK Jr.’s unexpected support for the MMR vaccine, proposing two primary theories:

1. Personal Realization: RFK Jr., now holding a significant governmental position, might be experiencing the pressures and responsibilities that necessitate more moderate and scientifically backed positions.

   JVL (07:40): "He is having to govern. Is it possible that RFK, having been handed real world responsibility for the first time in his adult life, has realized that he can't do that?"

2. External Pressure: Influences from within the administration or other officials may have compelled him to moderate his stance to prevent public health crises.

   Will Sommer (08:40): "We're seeing complaints about his communication team that the White House is getting kind of fed up with how he's getting the messaging out about measles and vaccines."

The conversation suggests that RFK Jr.’s statement might be a strategic move influenced by his role in HHS and ongoing public health concerns, such as the measles outbreak in Texas.

Broader Implications for the Anti-Vaccine Movement

The hosts explore the impact of RFK Jr.’s shift on the broader anti-vaccine movement, noting internal conflicts and the potential for discrediting prominent figures:

Will Sommer (06:49): "There is this obvious, and this is what we ran into with Trump and Operation Warp Speed where there's this obvious disconnect..."

JVL echoes this sentiment, emphasizing RFK Jr.’s diminishing influence compared to figures like Donald Trump:

JVL (11:39): "It does feel like his position is weaker than Trump's. ... It seems like if you're an anti-vax insane person, you look at Kennedy and Kenny starts selling you out, you can throw him overboard and find someone else."

The discussion highlights a potential power struggle within the anti-vaccine community, where RFK Jr.’s wavering stance provides opportunities for detractors to undermine the movement’s coherence and influence.

Political Alignments of Anti-Vaxxers

Shifting focus, the hosts examine the historical and current political demographics of the anti-vaccine movement:

Will Sommer (13:03): "You have, on one hand, the Mennonites... sort of off the grid conservatives, religious types... on the left, like hippies... distrustful of the system."

They discuss how these groups, once more evenly spread across the political spectrum, have increasingly aligned with conservative ideologies, particularly under the influence of Trump-era politics:

Will Sommer (15:14): "A lot of that stuff has gravitated towards the right and particularly kind of Trumpism."

JVL reflects on the evolution of conspiracy theories, noting a shift from a balanced political representation to a predominantly right-leaning base:

JVL (15:54): "Today, if you went around looking for the people who still believe 911 was an inside job, you're not going to find too many progressives in that spot anymore."

Future of Political Alignment and Conspiratorial Beliefs

The conversation transitions to the potential for further ideological sorting, drawing parallels with historical shifts in political party alignments:

JVL (14:24): "We had this great sorting out of our political parties... Is it possible that we are having that same sort of sorting for crazy?"

Will Sommer (14:24): Affirms the possibility, suggesting that conspiratorial beliefs and fringe ideas are increasingly confined to the right, making it harder for such beliefs to gain traction within mainstream or left-leaning politics.

Conclusion

In the episode's closing segments, the hosts reflect on the implications of RFK Jr.’s statements and the evolving landscape of the anti-vaccine movement. They ponder whether political parties will continue to polarize around both mainstream and fringe beliefs, potentially isolating "crazy" elements within specific ideological confines.

Will Sommer (17:04): "I think that's a lot of that stuff has gravitated towards the right and particularly kind of Trumpism."

The discussion underscores the challenges faced by public health officials in combating misinformation and the internal dynamics that complicate movements centered around controversial figures like RFK Jr.

Notable Quotes

• JVL (00:53): "RFK Jr has gotten himself in a little bit of hot water. He made the controversial statement via tweet that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine is the best way to prevent measles."

• Will Sommer (01:42): "RFK on Sunday gave sort of the most lukewarm endorsement you could possibly imagine for what every sane person knows, which is that the MMR vaccine for measles is absolutely something every child should get."

• Will Sommer (06:49): "It is not even like sort of a shred of evidence to set this off."

• JVL (12:13): "The movement of the vaccine stuff is very interesting to me and I want to... my sense is that it is equal. It was equal parts like crazy Christian homesteader types and then crazy Marianne Williamson crystals and beads progressive types."

• Will Sommer (15:14): "A lot of that stuff has gravitated towards the right and particularly kind of Trumpism."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a comprehensive analysis of the turmoil within the anti-vaccine movement following RFK Jr.’s unexpected endorsement of the MMR vaccine. By dissecting the reactions from key figures, exploring the underlying reasons for RFK Jr.’s shift, and examining the broader political implications, JVL and Will Sommer provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the current landscape surrounding vaccine discourse and political alignments.

Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and reflects the views and discussions presented therein. For more detailed insights, listening to the full episode is recommended.