Supporters Furious With RFK. Jr Over Measles Vaccine Statement

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "Supporters Furious With RFK. Jr Over Measles Vaccine Statement"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Bulwark Takes
• Host/Author: The Bulwark
• Episode Title: Supporters Furious With RFK. Jr Over Measles Vaccine Statement
• Release Date: April 8, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, hosts JVL and Will Sommer delve into the recent controversy surrounding RFK Jr.’s public statements on the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. RFK Jr., a prominent figure in the anti-vaccine movement and current head of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), has sparked significant backlash from his supporters after making what many perceive as a moderate endorsement of the MMR vaccine—a departure from his usual stance.

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RFK Jr.'s Statement on the MMR Vaccine

The episode begins with JVL introducing the controversy:

JVL (00:53): "RFK Jr has gotten himself in a little bit of hot water. He made the controversial statement via tweet that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine is the best way to prevent measles. And this has made his supporters want to set their hair on fire."

Will Sommer elaborates on RFK Jr.’s unexpected shift:

Will Sommer (01:42): "RFK obviously is a famous vaccine anti-vaccine activist, vaccine critic and of course he's now runs the, it runs HHS... RFK on Sunday gave sort of the most lukewarm endorsement you could possibly imagine for what every sane person knows, which is that the MMR vaccine for measles is absolutely something every child should get."

RFK Jr.'s statement, perceived as "milquetoast" by Sommer, contrasts sharply with his prior vehement opposition to vaccines, leading to confusion and anger among his base.

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Reaction from Supporters

The hosts discuss the backlash from RFK Jr.'s supporters, highlighting key responses from influential anti-vaccine figures:

Will Sommer (04:09): "A woman named Sherry Tenpenny, who is an osteopath, who's sort of like a big, big player in the anti-vaccine world... she was really mad that he described the vaccines as needed."

Another notable reaction comes from Liz Wheeler, a former host for One America News, who expressed her disappointment:

Will Sommer (04:47): "She was saying, you know, what happened to Bobby Kennedy? He used to be so based. You know, it says like cool and he's not based anymore."

These reactions underscore a fracturing within the anti-vaccine community, where RFK Jr.'s concession is seen as a betrayal by some key figures.

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Possible Reasons for RFK Jr.'s Shift

JVL probes into the motivations behind RFK Jr.’s unexpected support for the MMR vaccine, proposing two primary theories:

1. Personal Realization: RFK Jr., now holding a significant governmental position, might be experiencing the pressures and responsibilities that necessitate more moderate and scientifically backed positions.

   JVL (07:40): "He is having to govern. Is it possible that RFK, having been handed real world responsibility for the first time in his adult life, has realized that he can't do that?"

2. External Pressure: Influences from within the administration or other officials may have compelled him to moderate his stance to prevent public health crises.

   Will Sommer (08:40): "We're seeing complaints about his communication team that the White House is getting kind of fed up with how he's getting the messaging out about measles and vaccines."

The conversation suggests that RFK Jr.’s statement might be a strategic move influenced by his role in HHS and ongoing public health concerns, such as the measles outbreak in Texas.

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Broader Implications for the Anti-Vaccine Movement

The hosts explore the impact of RFK Jr.’s shift on the broader anti-vaccine movement, noting internal conflicts and the potential for discrediting prominent figures:

Will Sommer (06:49): "There is this obvious, and this is what we ran into with Trump and Operation Warp Speed where there's this obvious disconnect..."

JVL echoes this sentiment, emphasizing RFK Jr.’s diminishing influence compared to figures like Donald Trump:

JVL (11:39): "It does feel like his position is weaker than Trump's. ... It seems like if you're an anti-vax insane person, you look at Kennedy and Kenny starts selling you out, you can throw him overboard and find someone else."

The discussion highlights a potential power struggle within the anti-vaccine community, where RFK Jr.’s wavering stance provides opportunities for detractors to undermine the movement’s coherence and influence.

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Political Alignments of Anti-Vaxxers

Shifting focus, the hosts examine the historical and current political demographics of the anti-vaccine movement:

Will Sommer (13:03): "You have, on one hand, the Mennonites... sort of off the grid conservatives, religious types... on the left, like hippies... distrustful of the system."

They discuss how these groups, once more evenly spread across the political spectrum, have increasingly aligned with conservative ideologies, particularly under the influence of Trump-era politics:

Will Sommer (15:14): "A lot of that stuff has gravitated towards the right and particularly kind of Trumpism."

JVL reflects on the evolution of conspiracy theories, noting a shift from a balanced political representation to a predominantly right-leaning base:

JVL (15:54): "Today, if you went around looking for the people who still believe 911 was an inside job, you're not going to find too many progressives in that spot anymore."

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Future of Political Alignment and Conspiratorial Beliefs

The conversation transitions to the potential for further ideological sorting, drawing parallels with historical shifts in political party alignments:

JVL (14:24): "We had this great sorting out of our political parties... Is it possible that we are having that same sort of sorting for crazy?"

Will Sommer (14:24): Affirms the possibility, suggesting that conspiratorial beliefs and fringe ideas are increasingly confined to the right, making it harder for such beliefs to gain traction within mainstream or left-leaning politics.

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Conclusion

In the episode's closing segments, the hosts reflect on the implications of RFK Jr.’s statements and the evolving landscape of the anti-vaccine movement. They ponder whether political parties will continue to polarize around both mainstream and fringe beliefs, potentially isolating "crazy" elements within specific ideological confines.

Will Sommer (17:04): "I think that's a lot of that stuff has gravitated towards the right and particularly kind of Trumpism."

The discussion underscores the challenges faced by public health officials in combating misinformation and the internal dynamics that complicate movements centered around controversial figures like RFK Jr.

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Notable Quotes

• JVL (00:53): "RFK Jr has gotten himself in a little bit of hot water. He made the controversial statement via tweet that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine is the best way to prevent measles."

• Will Sommer (01:42): "RFK on Sunday gave sort of the most lukewarm endorsement you could possibly imagine for what every sane person knows, which is that the MMR vaccine for measles is absolutely something every child should get."

• Will Sommer (06:49): "It is not even like sort of a shred of evidence to set this off."

• JVL (12:13): "The movement of the vaccine stuff is very interesting to me and I want to... my sense is that it is equal. It was equal parts like crazy Christian homesteader types and then crazy Marianne Williamson crystals and beads progressive types."

• Will Sommer (15:14): "A lot of that stuff has gravitated towards the right and particularly kind of Trumpism."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a comprehensive analysis of the turmoil within the anti-vaccine movement following RFK Jr.’s unexpected endorsement of the MMR vaccine. By dissecting the reactions from key figures, exploring the underlying reasons for RFK Jr.’s shift, and examining the broader political implications, JVL and Will Sommer provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the current landscape surrounding vaccine discourse and political alignments.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and reflects the views and discussions presented therein. For more detailed insights, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

People of podcasting, It's London calling. The biggest international festival for the business of podcasting is back. The Podcast Show 2025. Now in our fourth year, we've hosted over 20,000 visitors from across the global podcast community. By day and by night, this one of a kind event brings together the most recognizable voices, industry players, leading platforms and brands and the most exciting, exciting creators. Get ready for sessions, workshops, meetings, parties and wall to wall network in over two days and nights. The podcast show London the 21st and 22nd of May book now at the podcast show London.com hey everyone, I'm JVL.

[JVL]

Here with my Bulwark colleague Will Summer and I RFK Jr has gotten himself in a little bit of hot water. He made the controversial statement via tweet that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine is the best way to prevent measles. And this has made his supporters want to set their hair on fire. Well, it's like a guy comes out, it's like water is wet and a bunch of insane people lose their damn minds. Will, can you explain to me what is going on in this insane asylum that we call America?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean this really tells you where we've come to now. I mean, so RFK obviously is a famous vaccine anti vaccine activist, vaccine critic and of course he's now runs the, it runs hhs. And so the anti vax people were thrilled and they thought, you know, basically this is our king and he's going to shut down all the vaccines. But now that there's this measles outbreak in Texas and now the second child has died from it, RFK on Sunday gave sort of the most lukewarm endorsement you could possibly imagine for what every sane person knows, which is that the MMR vaccine for measles is absolutely something every child should get. And so he said, you know, the, the vaccine is the best way to prevent the spread of measles. I mean, this is such a milquetoast thing to say. And his fans have absolutely flipped out over it.

[JVL]

And it, it's not like he held a press conference and said, I was just at funeral services for these two beautiful children who I, you know, the world will be robbed of seeing them grow old and contribute to Sentinel. Like it's just, he put it almost felt like a hostage memo. Yes, because it's in the third paragraph. So his. I don't know if you have it in front of you, but it is, it's in the third. You know, he takes a long time winding up to Saying that the MMR vaccine, which everybody in America's been taking for, you know, decades and which almost made measles go away, is, yeah, okay, just take it.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, he says, he says multiple paragraphs and just, well, I went to Texas and all this stuff. And he goes, anyways, yeah, you should probably get the vaccine though.

[JVL]

Do you think he would say that out loud if he was asked at a press conference?

[Will Sommer]

You know, it's a good question. I mean even, it's interesting because even during, I think we're entering maybe now the second month of this measles outbreak, he has, every time he's done an interview or something, he's still been very said, you know, well, you know, it should be up to people whether they get it or not. And the vaccine has so many dangers. I mean, it's just this stuff he's making up. And this was the first time really he had offered support for it without qualifying it with saying, well, you know, you got to do what's right for you or saying, you know, but it might kill you, which is what he's said in the past.

[JVL]

So what, what was the reaction online? What, what were his people doing and saying, who was it? Is this like Instagram influencers or. Sure.

[Will Sommer]

I mean, so it's sort of like the, both the grassroots and sort of leaders of anti vaccine movement or also Maha, the Make America, which is maybe a little more palatable than the official anti vaccine people. A woman named Sherry Tenpenny, who is an osteopath, who's sort of like a big, big player in the anti vaccine world. You know, she said Sherry Tenpenny. Tenpenny. I know, kind of a Pinchone esque name.

[JVL]

Perhaps I was going to go in a different direction, but Pynchon, we'll go with Thomas Pynchon. That's, that's much more highbrow than what I was going to suggest.

[Will Sommer]

What were you going to say?

[JVL]

You know, not for this. I don't want to make Sebastian cut it out.

[Will Sommer]

Perfect. So, yeah, so, so they, so, so she was saying, you know, this is a mistake, this is poorly worded. This woman named Liz Wheeler, who used to host a show for One America News, who's kind of like many sort of conservative women personalities pivoted into much more kind of like a wellness apothecary space. You know, she was, she was saying, you know, what happened to Bobby Kennedy? He used to be so based. You know, it says like cool and he's not based anymore. And so, I mean, she was really mad that he described the vaccines as needed. I mean, this is like truly through the looking glass stuff where all these people are riling each other up because RFK did, you know, the bare minimum.

[JVL]

So I guess I have a couple of questions for you. First of which is, do you think they'll really stay mad or is this the kind of thing like where with Trump, like, you know, like when, when Trump started turning against free trade in like 2016, a lot of Reagan conservatives were very angry that he didn't know about what the real benefits of the free market. And they, you know, they got right real quick. Are these people gonna get right with him or do they feel like they have political lives independent of him and they have audiences independent of him and they can try to cast him out and take over his influence in the sphere? How does that dynamic work?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, it's a good question. I don't think he is as bulletproof as Trump is, certainly. I think Kennedy is obviously like a very big deal and sort of like the king of the anti vaccine world, but at the same time, you can see people already kind of picking away at him. Candace Owens, who's like a huge deal on YouTube, of course, right winger, this conspiracy theorist, Ian Carroll, they've kind of teamed up and they've been promoting this idea that, well, rfk, because he isn't outright banning vaccines yet, he must be being blackmailed by Israel, you know, and I mean, Israel, well, how convenient.

[JVL]

Yeah, to just pick a country around. I'm sure they threw a dart at a map of the world and it just happened to land on Israel. Could have been El Salvador, could have been Bulgaria.

[Will Sommer]

It was just what a coincidence. It comes back to that for them and they really, like, they obviously have. No, not even like sort of a shred of evidence to set this off. But, you know, you do see this idea that RFK is being blackmailed, picking up on kind of the far right. And so I do think that something like that could be used to discredit him. I mean, there is this obvious, and this is what we ran into with Trump and Operation Warp Speed where there's this obvious disconnect between someone who says, you know, all these vaccines are so bad for you. In RFK's case, I mean, he was saying they killed more people or could kill more people than measles itself. And suddenly now he's saying, oh, you got to get the measles vaccine. I mean, there is this, this cognitive dissonance his fans have to deal with.

[JVL]

So I, again, I have more Questions? Is it the case? I mean, we've seen this in politics before where somebody will sound like an insane person on the outside when all they have to do is criticize. But the moment they are handed governing authority, they kind of like get deer in the headlights and realize, shit, I can't just say crazy stuff anymore. I have to govern. Is it possible that rfk, having been handed real world responsibility for the first time in his adult life, has realized that he can't do that? Or are the Maha influencer types maybe right, that somebody got to him? Like somebody within, say, the Trump administration who doesn't want kids dying of measles because it's bad for the president, sat him down and said, you're going to fucking say that the MMR vaccine is okay? And so Bobby did it in a tweet. Is that like, what do we think happened to him?

[Will Sommer]

I could see it going either way. I mean, on one hand, you know, this, this tweet came a couple hours after he visited with the family of the second child to die from measles. You know, that kind of stuff hasn't really stopped him and other anti vaccine people before. They've always come up with rationalizations for why it wasn't measles or the vaccine wouldn't have helped, but perhaps that was it. On the other hand, I think we're also seeing, we're seeing a lot of, like, leaking about, about HHS under rfk. We're seeing complaints about his commun team that the White House is getting kind of fed up with how he's getting the messaging out about measles and vaccines. And so, you know, I think it's, it's not a huge leap to imagine that someone was like, all right, you know, enough is enough. We can't have these kind of creeping measles pandemics.

[JVL]

Yeah, like this is, this, this feels like it could be a Susie Wiles joint. Right? Like Susie Wiles, she wants to keep Trump's fingerprints off of it. So she's the heavy and she says, you don't ever have to use your own word. You don't have to use your piehole. You can, you can have some, some mope tweeted out for you, but you got to say that it's okay to take the, the MMR vaccine in some form.

[Will Sommer]

God. Well, I mean, you compared it to a hostage note and, you know, maybe, maybe there is something to that.

[JVL]

No, it does. Right? This is why I kind of think that he ought to be goaded the next time he Takes questions from the press like, oh, tell us what you think about the MMR vaccine, Mr. Secretary. Is it. Is it effective? Is it the best way to prevent the spread of measles? Would you like to say it? Say it. The old Sam Kinison.

[Will Sommer]

Right.

[JVL]

Say it. It's. It's really something. And I feel like we. Then. So we got another tidbit from him this late today on fluoride where the. The FDA is going to, I guess, what is this? Remove their.

[Will Sommer]

I think the CDC is going to stop recommending to local municipalities to, to say like, we don't recommend you do fluoride anymore.

[JVL]

Is this his like, hey, I'm still on the team, guys. Hey, I'm one of you. Or, or do you think there's no, no linkage?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah. I mean, trying to prove, you know, to be clear. Yeah, I mean we should say like, it's not like this is now, you know, Mr. Mr. Sober Reality here. You know, a few, A few hours after he sent the tweet about the vaccine, he posted a picture with some sort of questionable doctors who have claimed to have treated all these kids for, for measles with sort of alternative remedies. Guys who have faced like medical discipline in the past. And now this.

[JVL]

Vitamin A and cupping. Yeah, candling. We're going to fight measles with ear candling.

[Will Sommer]

Not too far off. And then now this fluoride thing. I mean, I don't know how much, perhaps that was already happening, but it is like very much. I think he's still delivering most of the sort of maha kook agenda.

[JVL]

Yeah, I do. You know, now that we've said it, it does feel like his position is weaker than Trump's. Like he was the avatar of the anti vax kooks and the reason they loved him was because like, at least he was a little famous. And so they found one famous person to carry their banner with Trump. It's more like Trump is the savior and he does so much winning and we have to place our trust in him. It seems like if you're an anti vax insane person, you look at Kennedy and Kenny starts selling you out, you can throw him overboard and find someone else.

[Will Sommer]

Well, you can just say, well, this guy's next Democrat. You know, we should have trusted him perhaps.

[JVL]

Yeah, well, I guess. And that, that really gets to the, the movement of the vaccine stuff is very interesting to me and I want to. Wanted to know what your thoughts are because you go back 15 years, 20 years ago, and you looked at the social profile of anti vaxxers. And I mean, I don't have any hard science on this, but my sense is that it is equal. It was equal parts like crazy Christian homesteader types and then crazy Marianne Williamson crystals and beads progressive types. Does that. Is that about right? Like it was, you know, they were fairly evenly distributed across the political spectrum.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, as you said, sort of like on, on one hand you have, you know, I mean, we're seeing, for example, a lot of this outbreak in Texas is with the Mennonites who sort of code more like kind of off the grid conservatives, religious typ or. And then previously, you know, on the left, like hippies maybe, you know, people sort of distrustful of the system. Now I think a lot of the people on the left, you know, it is kind of classic horseshoe theory. They have, they, they have joined up with sort of the cranks on the right and you know, they really united around Kennedy in that.

[JVL]

All right, so let me throw one last thing at you. And this is one of my, one of my hobby horses. Beginning in the 1970s and 1980s, really the 1980s, we had this great sorting out of our political parties. So our political parties, the Democrats and Republicans, used to have lesser, more unfairly even number of conservatives and liberals in both. And the differences were much more regional than ideological. And over the course of the 80s and then into the 90s, we got very real ideological sorting where the Democrats became the liberal party and conservatives became the Republican party. Is it possible that we are having that same sort of sorting for crazy?

[Will Sommer]

I think, I think that's possible, yes. I think, you know, I obviously wouldn't rule out like all the, you know, no crazies in the Democratic Party, but I do think, you know, obviously I cover a lot of, you know, fringe elements and people always want to say to me, you know, after talking about the right or you know, all this stuff, they'll say, but, you know, what's going on the left. And it's like, you know, there's really, there's certainly nothing. I mean, it doesn't get, it certainly doesn't get validated in the way that it does on the right. Right. Where you have, let's say that, you know, the health secretary, you know, promoting these ideas or the president. And so in that way, like, I really think the, a lot of the sort of cranks, people who are kind of cut off from society perhaps, or have various grievances that have turned to conspiracy theories into kind of fringe stuff. I think the majority of those people are on the right.

[JVL]

Yeah, it is. I mean, I think of the last big conspiracy theory in America Pre Covid was 9 11. And it was the 911 was an inside job people. And they were at the time there were again, like a fairly even amount. There were the Noam Chomskyites on the left who were like, you know, America is always the root of every evil. And so America must have planned this out. And then you had like the Timothy McVeigh kind of crazy, right? As I feel like today, if you went around looking for the people who still believe 911 was an inside job, you're not going to find too many progressives in that spot anymore.

[Will Sommer]

I think that's right. I mean, you think about 911 conspiracy theories. I mean, Laura Loomer, right, who's now purging the National Security council and the NSA has promoted 911 consciousness conspiracy theories. And so I think, yeah, I think a lot of that stuff has gravitated towards the right and particularly kind of Trumpism.

[JVL]

All right, I'll put you on the spot. Just as a question of raw numbers and vote getting. If you could have the party that had the lock on the crazies or the party that had the lock in the normies, which do you think holds a larger percentage of Americans?

[Will Sommer]

Well, I think I certainly like to hope it's normies, but. But I think, you know, I think the most recent election suggests you might want to be the crazy party. I think Democrats at least should consider getting more, like, a bit more appeal to crazies with things like, you know, like, I think Jeffrey Epstein stuff was at least once very potent in terms of. Because, you know, if you just say, like, there's nothing weird out there, you know, there aren't any conspiracies, people say, I don't think that's true.

[JVL]

And I think often rightly interesting, invites the Democratic Party from the bulwark, maybe be open to some conspiracies.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[JVL]

God help us. All right, Will, Thanks a lot, guys. Hit, like, hit subscribe, follow the channel. We'll be back with all of the insanity probably in like, three minutes because there will be more. Good luck, America.