← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
Tim Miller
I'm welcoming you to the Bulwark Podcast live on Substack. This is the first attempt at this for us, so hopefully it goes well. For folks that don't know you, I assume everybody here knows you, but you were senior national correspondent for ABC News up to about two seconds ago. Previously chief foreign correspondent, chief White House correspondent, co anchor of Nightline, and now you're a free man. How's that feeling?
- [00:23]
Terry Moran
Oh, well, it's. Somebody said somebody used the word skiting, which is a combination of scary and exciting.
- [00:30]
Tim Miller
Okay.
- [00:30]
Terry Moran
Which I'll buy. I would say it's exhilarating and daunting and scary. But, yeah, exhilarating. I was at the point in my career, 65 years old in a business that just as a matter of demographic fact is dying. I was having less impact in abc. ABC having less impact in the world. I'm like, well, what's next? Because I have these inappropriately young children and so court substack in a lot of all these new spaces. And now that I'm here on an accelerated timetable, it's a brave new world. And for all the things that come with job loss, there is a great deal of excitement and joy in my heart, genuinely.
- [01:21]
Tim Miller
All right, well, this is my first hard hitting question. You look great for 65. What's your skincare regimen? Are you moisturizing?
- [01:27]
Terry Moran
You know. Yeah. Well, I will say this. So I met my wife in 2006, and I'd never put anything. I just washed with bar soap and everything, like, what is problem? Because she's up on all that. And so, yeah, I would use a little moisturizer or whatever.
- [01:44]
Tim Miller
It's working. Okay.
- [01:46]
Terry Moran
And name her.
- [01:48]
Tim Miller
Let's get to business. So the tweet that started it all for folks who missed it, I just want to read a little bit from it. The thing about Stephen Miller is he's not the brains behind Trumpism. It's not brains, it's bile. Miller is a man who is richly endowed with the capacity for hatred. He's a world class hater. You can see this just by looking at him, because you can see that his hatreds are his spiritual nourishment. What prompted that? What was behind it?
- [02:19]
Terry Moran
Yeah, one thing I can say is that it wasn't a drunk tweet. Everybody assumes it was because it was after midnight and it wasn't. I had been thinking during the course of the day, on and off, thinking about the country. Right. As we all are ruminating, whatever. And I was out for a long walk with the dog. And something kind of came to me, and I thought. Cause I was thinking about that guy. Like, what is it? And what is it in this moment? And there was something there. And I thought, all right, well, so I came back. We had a family dinner. We then watched a family movie. We watched Ocean's Eleven. And I can't blame that. Cause that's such an excellent caper movie. And then put the kids to bed. We were up for a little while. And it was not a rock and roll wild night. It was a normal family night. And then got into bed, and I thought, what was that? And I typed it out and I looked at it and I thought, that's true. And I hit sin.
- [03:26]
Tim Miller
I mean, you gotta forgive people who think that it might have been a drunk tweet. I mean, are you usually popping off at midnight? Is it a concern that you're thinking about Stephen Miller at midnight? I mean, I guess maybe it says something about the state of the country that you're thinking about Stephen Miller at midnight.
- [03:42]
Terry Moran
I believe so. It was more the moment that we're in, which he represents in such a vivid and, to me, quite disturbing way. I do, I will say this. I looked at it, I thought, okay, what is that? And I thought, that's a description of the public man that I'm describing him.
- [04:02]
Tim Miller
Yeah. I mean, there's no lies detected from my side of things, but I'm an opinion podcaster. And you do gotta admit, like, you went a little hard in the paint there with that, talking about how his hatreds are his spiritual nourishment. So, you know, I guess it does leave people to wonder, like, were you and Stephen Moore fighting? Was there a news story that prompted it? Was it something out of your Trump interview? I mean, given your background as a newsman, obviously you had a perspective. But that's hot. That's hot material.
- [04:35]
Terry Moran
It's way hot. And I wish I had a better story, Tim. It was something that was in my heart and mind. And I would say I used very strong language deliberately, because he. I felt. And it wasn't any. You see him all the time doing the same, spitting venom and lies into our debate, degrading our public discourse, debasing it, and using the power of the White House and what he's been given to grind us down in that bile. That's very disturbing to me. I'm actually, you know, not that liberal. You know, I'm like a lot of people, Some conserve, some liberal. But there was something about that and what it represented about that movement and Trump himself, that I felt to describe it accurately, needed that language.
- [05:30]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's interesting. It does feel like it was something that was weighing on you. I don't have it in front of me, but like, maybe a week before that, you'd sent kind of a long tweet about. About immigration. And it wasn't a lefty tweet, really. It started, you know, a comment about how, you know, we need to be able to have self government and have our borders. Here it is. It's like people have a right to say who comes into our country and at what pace they're admitted. That's not racism. It's self government. By turning migration into a moral demand, a matter of right rather than policy advocates, have ignited a backlash. And that was. This was you like a week before. Then you go on to talk about how we are seeing a bunch of people who are being racist in the way and in the ways that they are treating immigration. So, like, there's something about this issue that has been obviously noodling in your head for a while.
- [06:20]
Terry Moran
Yeah, yeah, I would say that, you know, I'm a member of the most despised political tribe in America. I'm a proud centrist. But you know, what I mean by that is, I guess I'm old. And the viciousness and the intolerance that you feel when we argue politics. Somebody asked me the other day in connection with all this, so what are your politics? And I said, well, I guess I'm a Hubert Humphrey Democrat. I mean, I'm old enough to remember him and get practical things done that people need in a decent way and stand up for what's right. And that is my politics. So someone liked Stephen Miller, in my judgment and in my observation, which is what reporters do is degrading all that and is a danger. And that's what was in my heart.
- [07:20]
Tim Miller
I don't feel this way, but I used to be a Republican. So I want to steel man the Republican argument for a second with you, which is, I think that some of my old friends over there, or former friends, maybe better put, would say, look, he just admitted it. Terry Moran just admitted it. He was a Democrat. He was hiding it his whole life. He was a Hubert Humphrey Democrat. And one night at jail, just the mask came off, you know, and this is the problem with the media. What would you say to that?
- [07:47]
Terry Moran
I have at it, you know, but my own feeling is, you don't sacrifice your citizenship as journalism, and your job is not to be objective. There is no Mount Olympus of objectivity where A Mandarin class of wise people have no feelings about their society. We're all in this together. What you have to be is fair and accurate. And I would refer to the interview with the President that I did or a lot of my work. And I would also say that this, while very hot, is an observation, a description that is accurate and true.
- [08:24]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And we got 10 years evidence. You know, it's the 10 year anniversary today of the escalator. Did you know that?
- [08:29]
Terry Moran
Did not know that. One of the most significant moments in American history. No question about it.
- [08:32]
Tim Miller
10 years. What were you thinking about it back then, that day? Do you remember?
- [08:37]
Terry Moran
You know, he was a sideshow to me at that point. But I quickly came to understand I was actually in London because I was the foreign, chief foreign correspondent. So I'd covered Brexit. And as soon as I started hearing what he was talking about, I thought I told colleagues who didn't believe me, I teach in the summer. I said, he's gonna win in 2016. Because partly cause I had covered Brexit, partly also cause I thought I did not understand why what Hillary Clinton was saying to me in terms of what she wanted to do with that power. And if you had taken a poll a week before the election, what does Donald Trump stand for? 95% of Americans are gonna start something, build a wall, Dinah, whatever. What does Hillary Clinton stand for? I think harder to get a hold of that. And I think that was kind of an issue. But I also felt like he was onto something, just like Brexit was onto something. Brexit was a catastrophe and a disaster and a tragedy for Britain, but there was a reason it happened. And I could see the same thing happening with Trump.
- [09:36]
Tim Miller
Yeah, that bile and that hatred, though, goes back to that very speech. You know, I mean, it's like the rapists and the murderers, the cantaloupe legs and the grievances. Right. I mean, it's not a lot has changed there over the decade. I mean, your observation, we've got a decade of evidence, I guess, about your observations about Stephen Miller and the Trump movement.
- [09:56]
Terry Moran
Well, I would say this, I agree, yes. That that's part of the sale, that's part of the revving up of the resent and all of that. And you saw it also in Britain and in other places where Trump is a nationalist. The night he was elected, I was on ABC News as we were covering the election, and I said, trump's not a Republican, he's a Democrat, he's a nationalist. We haven't seen one in a long time. And he's now basically reframing the political debate, which he's now successfully done. The Republican Party is a nationalist party, and I do think that that part of that is going to be hard to get out of our system once it gets there. It's. And I don't mean a patriot, I mean a nationalist. One thing about them, they're. They're sending their rape. They're sending rapists and murders. I did. I covered a mock election in a little town in the middle of Pennsylvania as part of the story. And it was school election. And the teachers were kind of gathered around watching the kids vote. Trump won overwhelmingly. And the teacher said, yeah, you guys in the media, you saw that thing and all you said was, yeah, he's sending the rapist. And I said, well, yeah, that was kind of bad. He said, I bet you don't remember what he said next. And I said, all right, what'd he say next? And they said, they're sending the drugs. He said, the guy said, you go into any one of these classrooms, you ask how many kids have a loved one or somebody they know who's been in drug addiction? And I did it. And we put it on Nightline because every hand in that classroom went up.
- [11:26]
Tim Miller
Yeah, that's another. I want to get into a couple other news things for you. Just a few more things on. On the tweet that changed your life. So I. Were you expecting the next morning, you know, obviously it leads to you leaving abc. I'm sure there's some limitations what you can talk about, but, like, what were those conversations like? Like the next morning, were you kind of expecting that it was over that? Were you bullworthing it? Were you Jerry Maguiring this, or were you kind of upset that there was even an issue because you felt it was so accurate?
- [11:55]
Terry Moran
Yeah, well, the Bulworth reference, absolutely. I hate that movie. But. But the Jerry Maguire. No, I wasn't Jerry Maguiring it either of. I don't want to go into all the gory details about what happened, but it was. I was rocked, clearly. And. And full of fear. Okay. And. And I realized that this was going to be a very serious situation and had to stand up, you know, and. And deal with it. And. And activity is one of the best things to assuage fear. But also, I thought about it in my own conscience first. And I thought, as I tell you, I. I wrote it because I thought it was true. And at the end of the day, when all the bad stuff has happened, my Children will know that. Whatever it means, it means that.
- [12:50]
Tim Miller
Did you feel like you should have been able to stay, though, within the context of what you wrote?
- [12:55]
Terry Moran
You know, I don't know. That's a bureaucratic thing. I don't know. You know, actually, it wasn't bureaucratic. It was their calculation and had the Stephanopoulos press. I shouldn't get too close to the line because there's still that stuff. But I. It was a business decision. From my perspective, it looked like a business decision and I, I became bad business. It feels like.
- [13:15]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I understand those limitations. But just one more thing on that. It is worth seeing what happened to you in that context. Right. Like there was a settlement with Trump over the Stephanopoulos thing, which to me was pretty borderline. We're seeing this in some of the other areas 60 minutes we've seen folks have to walk away from. So I like. What do you make of just the broader environment around you having to leave with regards to the media's response to Trump 2.0, that's a huge challenge because.
- [13:48]
Terry Moran
These media companies are part of bigger companies that have major business interests. And Trump has demonstrated with law firms, with universities, with companies that he will bring all the power he can. Rhetorical and the power that is the people's to destroy them if they don't kowtow to him. That is the story in industry after industry. The media is no different. And that has to be the calculation in the. In the calculation of. And I'm not talking about any particular person of any executive. And we can't live like that. So, you know, one of the great things about where we are right now, Tim, is that we are free to speak our minds here in a way that people in other ways aren't. I'm not dislagging anybody.
- [14:38]
Tim Miller
Sure. Were you worried after the settlement. Were you worried after the settlement that things might be going away that concerned you?
- [14:45]
Terry Moran
I should have been, but no, I wasn't. I was kind of known at abc, as somebody put it, and I think I know who it was. Somebody who I don't think enjoyed my explorations of the issues and such, that he's always had a very high opinion of his opinions, which is nasty when somebody's been fired. But it's fair comment, I suppose. But no, I didn't think anything like that was.
- [15:11]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I mean, you got the Trump interview in the meantime, like in between.
- [15:15]
Terry Moran
That that was accidental.
- [15:17]
Tim Miller
It was.
- [15:18]
Terry Moran
There were factors like the settlement, like the debate, like other things. I was kind of low man on the totem pole and some of the others were kind of knocked off.
- [15:27]
Tim Miller
So three days later, it was accidental that it was you. You mean, like, you were kind of the default choice, that's what you're saying? Yeah, yeah.
- [15:34]
Terry Moran
Which I was. I had that last. Of all the things I've done at ABC News. I've been in 86 countries and lots of elections and conflict zones. I've had a wonderful career there. I love a lot. I love most of my colleagues who were there and have tremendous respect for the work they do under difficult circumstances. But, yeah, it was clear that I was not first choice there, and I had three days to prepare, and that was the most fun I've ever had.
- [16:03]
Tim Miller
All right, I want to get to the interview. Right. Next. But just really quick, have you seen Pally's commencement? I assume you have since he left 60 Minutes.
- [16:09]
Terry Moran
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:10]
Tim Miller
I mean, like, quite powerful stuff. It is. Your departure from ABC is within that context. Right. You have somebody leaving 60 minutes and giving a commencement who is basically warning that we have real threats to democracy, to freedom of speech, to the free press, to diversity. And what did you make of his remarks?
- [16:31]
Terry Moran
I thought Scott was absolutely spot on. I'm now in a position where I can help in that good work, and that fills my joy as well. We can all put our shoulder to the wheel, because I do think he's right. This is a moment of danger, and I'm happy to be able to help if I can.
- [16:53]
Tim Miller
All right, back to the Trump interview. I have many thoughts on it. I've now watched, like, the Zapruder film, like, three or four times through. What was going through your head when he starts arguing with you about how Kilmar Vergo Garcia actually did have the letters MS.13 tattooed on his hand?
- [17:16]
C
Wait a minute, wait a minute. He had MS.13 on his knuckles.
- [17:20]
Terry Moran
He had some tattoos that are interpreted that way. But let's move on.
- [17:23]
C
Wait a minute. Okay, Terry, Terry, Terry.
- [17:26]
Terry Moran
He did not have the letter MS.13.
- [17:28]
C
It says MS.13.
- [17:30]
Terry Moran
That was photoshopped. So let me.
- [17:32]
C
That was Photoshopped, Terry. You can do that. Hey, they're giving you the big break of a lifetime. You know, you're doing the interview. I picked you because, frankly, I never heard of you. But that's okay. I picked you, Terry, but you're not being very nice. He had ms.13 tattoo.
- [17:46]
Terry Moran
We'll agree to disagree. I want to move on to something else.
- [17:48]
C
Terry, do you want me to show you the picture?
- [17:51]
Terry Moran
I saw the picture.
- [17:52]
C
We'll Photoshop.
- [17:54]
Terry Moran
Here we go. Here we go.
- [17:55]
C
Don't Photoshop it. Go look at his hand.
- [17:57]
Terry Moran
He did have tattoos that can be interpreted that way. I'm not an expert on them. I want to turn to Ukraine. I want to get to Ukraine.
- [18:03]
C
No, no, no, no. He had Ms. As clear as you can be. Not interpreted. This is why people no longer believe. Well, the news. Because when he was photographed in El Salvador, in.
- [18:14]
Terry Moran
In El Salvador. They aren't there, but let's just go. They aren't there when he's in El Salvador.
- [18:19]
C
Oh, they want to take a look at the photo there now, right?
- [18:21]
Terry Moran
No, but they're in your picture, Terry. Ukraine.
- [18:24]
C
Sir, he's got MS.13 on his knuckles. All right, okay, we'll take a look. It's. You do such a disservice.
- [18:31]
Terry Moran
We'll take a look.
- [18:31]
C
Why don't you just say, yes, he does, and you know, go on to something else.
- [18:36]
Terry Moran
Contested Ukraine. I couldn't believe he went there. And also. So we were in the Oblovens and we had a time limit, so I had a couple of issues to get to, and then I couldn't let it slide. And so I said no. So no, not right. You know, no Photoshop. And it was like a dog with a bone. Okay. It was like he was nuts about it. And I'm thinking. And so I'm a little freelancing at this point. This is not something I had attended to grill on him. To grill him on and had fact checked everything. But I. I'm kind of know that in the photographs when he's in El Salvador, they're not there. And da, da, da them. I don't know, It's. I'm not an expert in tattoos, all that stuff. And he kept at it so much so he was very angry at the end of the interview and he. We were supposed to do a rose garden walk, and he said, not after that interview. You know, it's a bad feeling. And he stormed out. And of course, then I said, okay, that good. Good day's work. And of course, we were gonna put an hour in prime time, so we were short, so we had to get him back. And there was executives who went. And Susie Wiles, chief of staff, went back. And then he managed to come back and he said, look, I'm just gonna sit at this desk. You're gonna stand there, I'm gonna point some things out, and then that's it. No rope for me.
- [19:55]
Tim Miller
Oh. So that was. Cause it ended up being at the beginning when he's showing you the photos of my Favorite one part of that exchange is you asked him why he has the James Monroe photo up there, and he's like, well, the Monroe Doctrine. And you're like, well, what was it about the Monroe Doctrine? And he's like, very important. It's very. It was very important. So I was like, I'm not. I think it leaves. Leaves some questions about his familiarity with what the Monroe document actually was. The. So my nitpick of you. I know you're doing it live. I have to live through all this. I rewatch my shit now and it's like, it's harder than it looks.
- [20:29]
Terry Moran
But.
- [20:29]
Tim Miller
But, you know, at one point you're like, you know, he's adamant that it's like it said Ms. 13. And you go, agree to disagree. I want to move on to something else. And he would not let you stop. Then he continued, and you're giving him agree to disagree, which is maybe wrong. And it's kind of like if Trump was saying the moon is made of cheese. And you're like, agree to disagree. Let's move on. And then he's like, no, the moon is made of cheese, Terry.
- [20:56]
Terry Moran
Well, and the last thing I said in that. That's fair. And I've seen people who said I should have gotten up on my soapbox and say, how dare you? The president. First, I don't do theater. And second, I felt the facts had been well established for anyone who to look at them. And third, the last thing I said was, it's contested.
- [21:17]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [21:18]
Terry Moran
So, yeah, the agreed to disagree thing was an error. I agree.
- [21:21]
Tim Miller
But he was adamant. That's the funny. And like, you had him. But he really thought it. Right. I mean, like, there's no way to interpret that other than that he really thought that the MS.13 was on his fingers.
- [21:31]
Terry Moran
Yes. Not only. So back in the. In his hold or wherever he went, because we were in the Oval, he apparently told Stephen Chung, go get the photograph. I'm going out there, I'm going out there, I'm going to show him. And A, that shows he's got terrible staff work who are too afraid of him to tell him the truth. B, that he was still fixated on. Yeah.
- [21:55]
Tim Miller
And that he's, like, extremely gullible. It also shows. I just. I mean, truth is truth. It wasn't a convincing tattoo, really. On the fingers.
- [22:07]
Terry Moran
It wasn't. But he has demonstrated the capacity to bend reality, to bend truth for tens of millions of Americans simply through sheer force of will. And he can do it.
- [22:19]
Tim Miller
Another thing, when I was rewatching the interview this morning that struck me was there's this. There's a section on his meeting with Zelensky that happened in Vatican City. And you were talking about how striking it was and, like, how there's this historic photo, this moving photo maybe, or historic meeting between the two of them in the Vatican. And, you know, there's that somber photo that people have of Trump leaning forward and staring at him. And I just watched that with like a month's difference. And it really is striking how that actually was nothing. Trump is very. You said you don't do theater. Trump does theater. He was happy for that to be theater like him and Zelenskyy having this serious meeting in Vatican City. But unfortunately, it's changed nothing. Right? And I guess we had over the weekend that Trump got a happy birthday call from Putin, and nothing has changed.
- [23:18]
Terry Moran
Well, has nothing changed, though, Tim? Because he's. It's like he's disappointed. And I think he's still gonna abandon Ukraine. Trump's fairly bent on that. But I do feel that he thought he could just wave his bending reality wand and make peace there. And the reason I did kind of lay it down a little thick, this moving photo, this historic photo, whatever it was, was to get him to open up a little bit about it.
- [23:48]
Tim Miller
Yeah, no, I was. I wasn't really criticism in that moment. It felt that way. You know, there was like a moment of, okay, well, gosh, we've got a new Pope. They're meeting there in the Vatican. And, you know, his fake reality about what Russia wants is, you know, crumbling. Right? And, you know, we had. It had been a month prior that they had had the shouting match, you know, the kids, you know, food fight in the West Wing, right? And maybe this is a sign of progress. And it's kind of like this guy is not movable. You know, I don't. I guess my point is the majesty of the Vatican and the reality of Putin's behavior, like, just in the directionally hasn't really changed where Trump's posture is on all this.
- [24:33]
Terry Moran
He came into office bent on abandoning Ukraine. He has, as far as he has this kind of thing. He's one of the world historical figures. Henry Kissinger, just before he died, saw it. He said, Trump is one of those figures that history brings forward who marks the end of one era, right? And I thought, that's Trump. How much he has a grand theory, I don't know. But he does, as far as he does sees great power politics as the world. You get Ukraine, we get Greenland and Canada or whatever. And that's the way he sees the world.
- [25:09]
Tim Miller
Like Risk again, was there anything else that struck you from the interview and you mentioned earlier you got more and more mad over time. I do think it said something about, says something about his personality. Right. That he comes in his tone at the beginning of the interview like he's malleable. Right. Like if you had just kind of sucked up to him and just said, sir, look at all this progress on the border and you know, whatever. Like, and Henry Kissinger said you were, you know, you marked the end of history. Right. Like he would have, you could have, you know, he would have went along with you throughout it. Right. Like the dramatic change of his temperament I think is pretty noteworthy because, you know, I mean, a lot of politicians you've interviewed probably keep it a lot cooler than that, even when challenged.
- [25:51]
Terry Moran
Yes, I'd say a couple things about that. First, I did say that the accomplishment on the border is staggering and a judgment on Democrats. The fact that arrests at the border are down to close to zero, basically simply because obviously there's cruelty, I believe there's the actions in courts have found to be illegal. But simply saying we will enforce our laws and you will be arrested, that it's the force of that more than any individual arrest and the terror campaign that it amounts to against people who are here, you know, without the authority of law. But it really is the credibility that was lacking, whether in a vicious way or a virtuous way, there was no credibility to our border. So I gave him that. I said, you know, it's amazing. The other thing I'd say is that I tried to be as respectful as I could. He's the President of the United States. People in the Constitution put him there and he deserves respect in that regard. And I just don't think he brooks anything but praise. And that I couldn't, obviously I wasn't going to do.
- [27:01]
Tim Miller
Right. And that's the striking thing to me. It's not like you went in there with Trump going at him in the hardest possible way or being rude or whatever, but he just is unable to handle the slightest amount of pushback. And that is a noteworthy trait when you consider he's going to have to make some high stakes decisions here on the next. Over the next three and a half years.
- [27:27]
Terry Moran
Over the next three and a half years. That's it. Yeah. No, he's a, he's a piece of work, as we all know. And I just will also say this, you know, just kind of batting it back and forth with him for that amount of time. You're looking into someone's eyes, you know, what do you see? I saw. He's mean. He's. There. There's. He can lash out at any moment. You can feel that. And I think there's also, obviously, he's a. You see him on the golf course. He enjoys people, and he's a sociable person. But what. I don't think. I don't think he's that tough.
- [28:04]
Tim Miller
If he can't handle you. You mean. He's not that tough.
- [28:07]
Terry Moran
At one point, he said something like, you know, because I asked the question, you know, do you have 100% confidence in headsets? And he said, stupid question. I don't have 100% confidence in anything. Out of my 100% confidence this interview is going to end. Even is gonna. Whatever. We're gonna finish the interview. And I just said, no, we will. And he just said, all right, go on. He just gave that up. I just felt like. And I didn't really even intend to back him down, but he did. He's never mentioned me. I have a name built for a Trump tweet, and I've heard it since I was in third grade. Terry Moron. I was waiting for the. Everybody, and everybody. Everybody says it, thinks they invented it, right? I've been hearing it my whole life, and he hasn't whispered anything about. Not even about this. He hasn't even dunked on me for this. Not that he. Not that he. And I want him to. I don't. But I don't know what that means.
- [28:59]
Tim Miller
It's the weirdest part of the whole Trump phenomenon. I mean, you said, you know, you said you were kind of on to it. You saw the appeal of the nationalism and really to Brexit at the beginning. But something I can't really grasp is that, to me, he's just obviously weak, Right? And that he's not. He's not the traditional, you know, kind of tough man and the John Wayne, you know, kind of. Which is obviously fake, but like, you know, like this sort of strong, silent type that, you know, conservatives and folks have traditionally held up as being what it means to be a tough, strong guy. Like, he's the opposite of that. He's like a whiny child. And it is interesting to me that. That. That that myth of him as a tough guy persists.
- [29:45]
Terry Moran
Yeah.
- [29:45]
Tim Miller
What do you think that is?
- [29:47]
Terry Moran
That's a great point. Although there's one moment when he rose from the ground after being shot at that was Tough. And told him. Told his. I gotta stand up. And he had enough of a sense of his own Persona in front of the country to do that. I'm not gonna take that away from him, but I.
- [30:06]
Tim Miller
That's a fair point.
- [30:08]
Terry Moran
But I hear what you're saying, which is that my dad was. I was thinking of my father yesterday, and he was in World War II. He joined right after Pearl harbor. Ended up in the airborne paratrooper in the Pacific on the islands, Philippines, Okinawa, and then the occupation of Japan. Never much talked about it. He hated braggart. He hated blowhards. Because men of that generation and by tradition, Americans, we used to, like, think those guys. Bullies, all those. And now he is, you know, the leader of the biggest and most important political movement certainly of my lifetime. If not, you know, one of the. One of the biggest in history.
- [30:52]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Wild. You are right about the Butler thing. I know. It almost feels like it's fake. It almost makes me think we're living in a simulation. What happened in Butler, to be honest, the. Just one more thing I just was thinking about right now, thinking about the interview you had with him and the Ms. 13 fingers and his ability to kind of suspend disbelief when it benefits him. You did ask about the other thing that I'm obsessed with, which is the Venezuelans that we have now kidnapped and sent to El Salvador without any due process. And you asked him about that. And you asked it, and you did push him on it about how, we don't know, some of these people might not be bad people. And he kind of had the same response to you that he did on the fingers. He's like, no, Terry. He's like, we know these are. These. These people are bad. And I do wonder. I do. I do think that he's convinced himself of that. Right. And. And to me, that, like, presents an opportunity in the same way that the Fingers did, that like, the bubble can be punctured, like the dis. Reality bubble can be punctured. That does happen with Trump from time to time. It didn't happen on the 2020 election, but it's happened on. Garcia was able to come back. You know, his buddies in the hotel industry now aren't going to have deportations. Right. Like, there's certain ways that the stuff can. And I don't know what. What do you make of that? His response to you on the Venezuela issue?
- [32:13]
Terry Moran
You know what? I hear what you're saying to me, and I agree. I left a trick on the table there, if you will. Right. I did. And it was. And it was the way we figure it out, if they're bad guys is through due process, some version of you cannot. And you know what? You get large majorities of Americans who agree with that he will be stopped. But he needed to be pressed on that because it's circular. How do you know? Well, I know and it. That's easily punctured. And I did leave that trick on the table.
- [32:46]
Tim Miller
I'd say, yeah, on this. He did a bleep over the weekend on his feed. I want to get your reaction to, because it's related to sort of all these issues. ICE officers are here with. He's come up with an old English word he likes. Now, herewith, ICE officers are here with, ordered by notice of this truth to do all in their power to achieve the very important goal of delivering the single largest mass deportation program in history. In order to achieve this, we must expand efforts to detain and deport illegal aliens in la, Chicago, New York, where millions upon millions of them reside, and other such cities which are the core of the Democratic power center, where they use illegal aliens to expand their voter base. I wonder what you made of that.
- [33:31]
Terry Moran
That's the real thing. We're there. He wants to send troops into the homes, homelands, the strongholds, political strongholds of his opponents and punish them for objecting to his policies and trying to stop him from exercising the authorities of the office that he has in this way. And I think that. We're there. We're there. Right. This is a threat to send troops into the cities run by Democrats so he can do what he wants there. And I also get a feeling, is.
- [34:13]
Tim Miller
The there in that sentence, authoritarianism. What is the there?
- [34:17]
Terry Moran
Yeah. At a crisis where. We're there, at the crisis of our free government. If a president of the United States is sending. I'm sending troops into cities in part for political reasons, because my political opponents are in power there, and I want the troops there in defiance of the black letter of the law. I think it's safe to say this is. We can't turn our eyes from it anymore. This is an attempt at changing the nature of the American democracy. Right. And they do so with lies. Let me just raise Stephen Miller once again. When the Supreme Court said that Abrego. Marcia. That the government must facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia, Guillermo Abrego Garcia, to the United States, Stephen Miller came out and said with his venomous demeanor, the Supreme Court, nine to nothing, upheld the president's right to what the Supreme Court says. No, no court can tell you how much money to spend, what flight they have to be on by what date. But the order is law and you must facilitate it. You must, you must do it under this order. And he spit on that with his lie that the Supreme Court upheld the president's position nine to nothing. That kind of lie and then this kind of decree. What would you call that? If you saw that in another country, what would you call it?
- [35:47]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I mean, it's a path to urbanism, for sure. It's a crackdown on due process. And so we can come up with other words. You want authoritarianism, light urbanism? We can debate that, academics can debate that. But I think the true facts are there. To me, Terry, it's like, and I see Stephen, in this, in this post from Trump, it is, in addition to everything you said, it is him ensuring that there is no misunderstanding about his statements from last week about how maybe trips should, maybe, maybe the ice agents should chill out on the farms and the hotels. Right. Like, and I think that he, that there was a concern that there was a misread of that, and he wants to reassure everybody that, no, my top priority authority is we are going to deport these people. We are going to deport these people no matter what, no matter whether they've committed crimes or not. Like, we want to have the biggest deportation in history, and we're going to come into your towns and to your businesses and do it. And I think that was the point.
- [36:55]
Terry Moran
It was the point. But combine those two social media posts and statements, and what you get is we're going to come into their towns and their cities, and if you are on my side, I can do a deal with you. But if you stand up to me, then I will send the troops into, into your, your towns and cities. And that is not just urbanism. Look at the godfather of all this is Putin. Right? Kgb, but never forget, was a lawyer, Right? And I think he. If you look at how, because I cover. I've been in Russia since 1999, probably, I don't know, 12, 15 times. And I have seen and have felt, and my friends and colleagues there have felt the civic space shrink more and more. And in Poland as well, dear friend, in Poland, when the law and justice government there was trying to destroy the judiciary. And I asked my friend and colleague Tom McRolski, I said, we were late one night at the bureau in London and I said, what does it feel like? How do ordinary people do? And he said this, he said, your life gets smaller. You don't Put your head up over the parapet. You don't look at it. You go to the cafe, you have the best life. You can think how many people are already leading that life in the United States and may be soon.
- [38:15]
Tim Miller
And you see that happening here, not just among immigrants, but also among the broader population. Or right now, you're saying that's kind of limited to the. That's kind of the first step as the immigrant class.
- [38:27]
Terry Moran
Well, whatever one decides about the journalistic ethics of my post. Right. And I'll let that conversation continue. I'm happy to. I think it's an important conversation at this moment, and people can make up their minds one way or the other. I'm proof that you don't want to get in the way of this, of this administration. Not that I want to make it about me. Let me withdraw that. But say a lot of people, a lot of people are watching what they say and where they say it.
- [38:57]
Tim Miller
And just from your experience in Russia, like, how much of a parallel are you seeing?
- [39:04]
Terry Moran
Well, all right.
- [39:04]
Tim Miller
I mean, look, obviously, right. I mean, like, we're at a different level now, but it's been a long arc from Gorbachev to now. It's like, do you see our, do you see us on that trajectory somewhere?
- [39:15]
Terry Moran
I would have to say we're such a different country. The instruments of oppression were at hand in Russia, and their civil institutions were not. We have a robust system and it'll withstand a lot, but the idea that one person defines the national interest, one person defines what's good about the country, what's not. One person defines who's a good guy, who's a bad guy. One person exercises the power that they have in, in those ways. Yeah, it's similar. But I, what I feel is the experience of, of that. That's that space shrinking, right. For, for people. And I, I don't think it'll work. I'm. I mean, I could be wrong, but the, the good guys are going to win. And as I said in one of the first substacks, you know, what a joy it is to be an American and alive at this moment in our history. This is a privilege that we have right now to speak out and use our voices and to say no. Those no Kings protests were a moment. Right. Gotta build on it. But it was a moment.
- [40:29]
Tim Miller
All right. So that takes us to the last thing. So you are free now. You're a free man. Just you. You and your substack, your subscribers, people can go check them out on Terry Mariah substack You know, at least until the ice troops come into, come into Frederick, Maryland, you're a free man. What, what do you want to do? What are you wanting to pop off on? I mean, it could go a lot of different directions. Are you going to be, get let all those opinions out. You've been stifling. Are you going to do interviews? What do you think is the most valuable thing for you to be doing right now?
- [40:57]
Terry Moran
Yes, all the above and more. Look, I'd like to do some more of what I was doing at abc. Look, the great thing about ABC and all those legacy media organizations and they are great in their way and I, as I say, I've got nothing to say against them. I had a wonderful career. We're working out some details at the end. But the great thing is the resources that they can bring around the world to doing that. I don't have those resources at this point, but I'd like to keep doing reporting as I did. I'll tell you the first place I want to go. I want to go to Springfield, Ohio. Go back to Springfield, Ohio, where I spent a week or so twice during the campaign. And I want to go back to the Haitian community that was there and their neighbors now that they are being sent out, sent back to Haiti and what that's going to do to the town and not just the Haitian people there, but the town had come to depend on them. That town was falling flat and now it had risen. The mayor wanted them there. Governor DeWine wanted them there. And now that's going to be a radical and cruel change. And so that kind of thing I'll do. But interviews, I hope, newsmaker interviews. And, and you know, have you. I love, by the way, I love the bulwark and it's why I wanted to be with you. It's, it's, it's absolutely thrilling to be in these new spaces. I don't have a great idea what the brand is going to be, but if there is such a thing. But I'm keen to find out.
- [42:27]
Tim Miller
I'm obsessed with that Springfield story, too, so that's great. Check in. Let's do a check in when you get out there. I would love to do that. And final thing, do you, do you see a beer summit coming for you and Stephen Miller or are you planning to meet in his cave somewhere or any thoughts on that?
- [42:45]
Terry Moran
I'm going to emphasize I was describing the public man. I don't by my nature want people to feel bad from something I said or wrote or did, but sometimes that's.
- [42:58]
Tim Miller
The difference between you and me, Terry. We found the one area of disagreement.
- [43:02]
Terry Moran
But you got to tell the truth, right? That's the job. You got to tell the truth. So I don't see a beer summit. In fact, I see probably maybe a couple of cop cars pulling up. And then I need a lawyer.
- [43:15]
Tim Miller
Good luck out there, man. I really appreciate you doing this. I'm excited to watch what you're going to be doing going forward, and let's check in from time to time. How about that?
- [43:23]
Terry Moran
That's great. Thanks, Tim.
- [43:24]
Tim Miller
All right. Good luck, brother. We'll see you soon.