Bill Kristol (3:46)

The intelligence cut off just for me. First of all, people should watch that or listen to that podcast or at least read the transcript. It's really interesting and moving. And this young man is over there. And where's he from originally? I can't remember.

Tim Miller (3:59)

Ireland.

Bill Kristol (3:59)

Ireland. Yeah. And reminds one of the kind of human what's at stake, and he's. Anyway, it's depressing. The intelligence cut off, I do think, is another level of pro Putinism, you know, not committing to make to further aid, not committing to NATO membership. Some of that Biden had been ambivalent on the NATO side. The further aid, they maybe don't need it right now. So you could resolve that in a month or two. The intelligence in real time. Cutting off the intelligence, that's just pro Putin. I mean, I mean, I don't even see how you can say it's Anything else. Right. It just helps him fight the war, kill more Ukrainians.

Tim Miller (4:34)

No, it's what everybody says. I mean, if you're on these kind of Ukrainian military feeds, like, it's just like that has been the most dramatic, like real result. And I mean, Zelensky's tweeted a couple of these examples, but there are more of, you know, I mean, just massive bombing. They're going after infrastructure, but like people getting injured. There was one case, one instance in particular, where the Russians bombed a factory. The, you know, the first aid team, first responders came in to kind of help deal with it. Then they bombed the same spot again. You know, I'm just. Horrific stuff. The kind of stuff that was happening at the beginning of the war that was still happening, but that, you know, had been, had been tapered by the Ukrainian defense. So, you know, this is the whole thing. It's just like we are doing it for like, like what? And I guess I forget who I was talking to this about on Friday, but you know, the only argument that you have is, is, is just to say that like they are trying to pressure Zelensky to the negotiating table so that he can surrender.

Bill Kristol (5:35)

Right.

Tim Miller (5:35)

Like, like what is the other rationale for this? Right. Like, besides they want it to get worse. Worse. So he feels pressured to, you know, negotiate on their terms. And so I mean, that again, like just puts you squarely on the side of Russia.

Bill Kristol (5:52)

Yeah. Or they just want to, you know, destroy Ukrainian morale. I mean, that double tap that they've used in Syria and elsewhere, you attack a civilian target, then you attack the people who were the emergency teams coming to help the wounded. And, and it's, it's a horrible thing. Obviously it's supposed. Maybe it breaks morale, maybe it doesn't. But they also kill people, which they seem to want to do. I mean, it is just brutal. And.

Tim Miller (6:18)

Yeah, then you have JD Vance complaining that Ukraine protesters were shouting at his daughter.

Bill Kristol (6:23)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (6:23)

If you saw this, he's like tweeting, complaining that. And if you looked at the video, they were totally appropriate and what they were doing, the protests. But you know, I, somebody had sent this video of a three year old girl in Ukraine that had like lost a leg that's walking and it's like, I'm sorry, okay. Like if you want to abandon a free people that are being attacked, then like you're going to get criticized for it. And I'm sorry that you're on a walk with your child, but like there, there are actually people dying and being, and being injured because of it. And in that exchange, I watched the full video on the Cincinnati TV stations, put it up. Like the most interesting part of just like listening to him off the cuff is one of the women who was protesting was like, Russia has a history of this. It was Crimea. It was. And it's kind of muffled what else she mentions. But then, and then, you know, she's like, then Ukraine, they're aggressor. Like they're always the one that's responsible. And JD says basically, like, well, that's your opinion, you know, like you can't even acknowledge even in like these private exchanges, like Russia does anything wrong. And like meanwhile Marco Rubio shit. Posting the Polish. Like it's a very dark situation.

Bill Kristol (7:29)

It's horrible. And I mean, I don't care about the J.D. i mean, it's not worth getting into at great length. But it looks like the Secret Service I worked for Vice President have some familiarity with how this might work. So he wants to go to his home as opposed to the Vice President's residence here, which he lives at the Naval Observatory for the weekend with his family. I suppose that's fine in Cincinnati. And they've got the street pretty well blocked off, though the protesters are not outside his door right there. I don't know what a block away, I'd say it looks like on the video. I mean, and he wants to walk with his walk his three year old, which is fine obviously. And he could walk around in many ways without approaching the protesters. He wants to kind of have a bit of a confrontation with them or maybe let's be nice and say he wants to talk to the public. Then he gets all offended because these people are not willing to what these tell them, that it's not a terrible thing they're doing to cut off the aid to Ukraine.

Tim Miller (8:18)

Right. I mean, there is no. I mean it's Calvin Ball. There's nothing that they could have done. You know, I mean the whole thing was just him wanting to be. Play the victim. You know, meanwhile he's responsible for just this horrific turn on, you know, on the ground in Ukraine.

Bill Kristol (8:35)

Anything to be done about it. I mean, do you find that Democrats who you talk to think it's conceivable that, I mean, this is an issue which half the Republicans voted to aid you less than a year ago, including the speaker of the House. And a rather eloquent speech, actually. I went back and looked at it for a minute about how important this was and it was a morally right and just cause and so forth. I Don't know. Is anyone going to do anything about this? Or.

Tim Miller (8:57)

I mean, I don't. Yeah, I don't think anyone's gonna do anything. But I do think this is an issue that is worth, you know, everybody's kind of tired of, like, shame Republicans, like, do the right thing, because we all know they're never going to do the right thing. But I, I do think this is an issue where they, so many of them have public statements like that, as you mentioned in Mike Johnson's, that are eloquent, that are passionate, that are committed to, like, the Ukrainian cause. You know, I mean, that Brian Fitzpatrick from Pennsylvania, you know, is saying that he would do everything that he could to defend and defend Ukraine. You know, Don Bacon's on six minutes. So, like, you've seen this. Even Thune back in the day, like, Thune and Johnson both have said that. So I do think shaming them. And just at least on the intelligence thing, being like, they're like, you have power. Like, these Republicans have power now if they want to. They have a big budget vote that's coming up this week. Right. And. And if you want to protect the Ukrainians, you could just say to the White House, like, I'm not going to vote for your budget unless you turn the intel back on and we start working with Ukraine. Like, they could say that's not a crazy ask. Given the severity of the situation. I don't have any expectation any of them will do it. But I think it's a pretty simple message and it's worth, you know, at least humiliating them on.

Bill Kristol (10:16)

It is. And I get it. Just, I feel like you're just shouting into the wind at this point, obviously, on the Republicans on the Hill. But I feel like there's a little different. They are way other issues they haven't opined on one way or the other. They're vaguely in favor of cutting government, so they're not going to take on Doge even when it's terrible, or they'll take it on in the way some of them are, which is they'll protect their own little districts. Tom Cole is very proud that in Oklahoma, three things have been reopened. You know, I mean, it's fine. He represents Oklahoma. He is also in the leadership of the House Republicans. Maybe he could represent the country a little bit, you know, but on Ukraine, I think it's. They're all, it's foreign policy, people don't care. But it's sort of the opposite. I think of all the issues, it's the one many Republicans have been to Kiev. They've spent a fair amount of time to be fair to them, learning about it, thinking about how to help them best criticizing the Biden administration for not doing enough. The Mike McCall's of the world. Former with the Republican rank, former chairman I guess of House Foreign Affairs. People like that. And yeah just the idea that they can't. What would it take three of them. Three of them. Three of them have to say what you said. You know what? We can't. Maybe it takes a few more of some Democrats to fight but not really. Right. We can't support the Republican budget unless. We're not even asking you to change the overall orientation. We're not asking you to change on NATO involved. We're not you know, we're not asking for everything here.

Tim Miller (11:32)

We're not asking for more funds. We're not even asking for more military material. It's like, it's like we're just asking that we continue our alliance with you with the Ukrainian victim.

Bill Kristol (11:44)

Provide them intelligence that saves lives. And it does save lives. That's what it does. It doesn't necessarily change the course of the war obviously.

Tim Miller (11:51)

Right.

Bill Kristol (11:51)

Cut off. We're going to cut off the aid. They're going to have trouble anyway. Europeans will or won't step up. Etc. This is. Yeah, I, I'm okay. I'm gonna. Maybe I'll write about that tomorrow morning. I was thinking about Ukraine anyway but it's so simple and it sounds so simple minded to say, you know, three of them or six of them or something could just say that what do we. It's not that hard. Right. Well it's hard because they.

Tim Miller (12:10)

And there's more than many more than six of them that privately hold that view I guess is the other point. Right. And so you know, it's not like it's a request that is outside of what they would prefer.

Bill Kristol (12:24)

Right. It's like give up your huge part of your agenda, whatever it is. He didn't run on cutting off intelligence in real time to Ukraine in the first or second week of March. Right. That was not, that was not. I mean he was never going to be pro Ukraine the way others might have been. But depressing.

Tim Miller (12:40)

Extremely.

Bill Kristol (12:41)

Meanwhile, on the domestic front, what strikes you about what's going on with the Justice Department and everything else? Doge Musk Rubio fight that I've ignored. I think you may have paid more.

Tim Miller (12:52)

Attention just because that's funny because we went to such a dark place. I think it's worth enjoying it. If you haven't read The Times piece, I think it was Swan and Haberman on this white Oval Office meeting between Trump and Musk and Rubio and Duffy. And I said online, I was like, I think this is like a reverse Portlandia. There's a show Portlandia that, like, spoof solved, like, the progressive, you know, verbiage and, you know, silliness of progressive meetings. This was like a reverse of that. Like, you have a reality TV show star and a. Like, a rich billionaire and, like, a guy who used to be a normal Republican. And they're all arguing, and, like, their arguments are not. Are just not even sensible. Like, Duffy, actually, the reality show star is the one making the most sensible argument, which is like, I need more FAA officials. Like, Elon, can't fire them. Can't, like, just fire them randomly. Then Elon's like, oh, no, we were just filing the DEI FAA people. It's like, it must have been DEI that was the problem. It's like, what are you even talking about? And then. And then Trump, like, chimes in and he's like. And, you know, he's saying, well, what you should really do is replace the DEI people with some MIT grads, you know, and put them in the FAA. It's like, I mean, how much is an FAA person making? 160 grand. Like, you think that MIT people are going, like, it's just. The whole thing just shows a total disconnect with the reality of how the government works. And it's really alarming. Like, the. And that's the funny part. But at the Atlantic, Isaac Stanley Becker has a piece today about just how, like. About how the FAA staffing situation is worse than we'd realize. And. And, you know, here we have just, like, the Keystone Cops, like, shouting about DEI in the Oval Office. It's. It's telling. The other thing about the exchange that was interesting is Trump did have to bleat. Everything is good with Musk and Marco, right? Like, they are not in a fight. That is fake news. So it's always a sign of real news when Trump has to tweet that something is fake news.

Bill Kristol (14:53)

I thought that was actually, like, a fake tweet. I thought that was like a joke, you know, like a parody tweet.

Tim Miller (14:58)

All right.

Bill Kristol (14:58)

So comical that Trump in caps is saying there's not a. After everyone. After this fight is reported on quite reliably. The principles don't really deny it. Right. I don't think Trump has to say, oh, they're getting along great. You know, Sean, it's an easy guy. To get along with, you know, and it's amazing Rubio found some spirit there. But anyway, but, you know, it's, it's disconnect with reality, but also just to disdain and contempt for reality. Like actually, FAA people are helping planes land safely and fly safely. It's kind of important, you know, and if it takes X number of people, it takes X number of people. It's a tiny, trivially small investment in a country that's flying billions of passengers. I don't even know how many.

Tim Miller (15:40)

Right.

Bill Kristol (15:40)

And then millions of flights and, you know, making that system as safe as possible. And the idea that we, you know, you're going to fire the. We're getting tough. We're cutting that bloated faa. I mean, it's so farcical. Maybe there are particular people who could be moved and stuff, but that's what they're doing. That's not what they're doing. Someone in government pointed out, if I could take a second on the DEI thing. So the government made a point to me, someone who's in an agency and is in DEI world and is not sympathetic to it particularly. But a lot of the people who are working in dei, they were just assigned there. I mean, it's not like if you're in government like in any corporation, right? It's like you don't get to choose exactly what you work on. And someone say, we need some people to do this. Go do this for a year, then we'll bring you back to, or move you to a next job, which is the one you've wanted in something else. I'm making this up, obviously. Enforcement. And I'm making it up, but I'm not making it up in the sense that this really happens. And the person went there for a year because they just. His, his or her boss told him to. And, and, and then suddenly they're like DEI agents hostile to American principles and they're fired. It's really insane.

Tim Miller (16:43)

It's really insane. And you kind of went over the Tom Cole thing, but I haven't had a chance to talk about that.

Bill Kristol (16:48)

Well, go ahead, talk about it.

Tim Miller (16:49)

Yeah. No, it's just crazy, right? Like that you have this Oklahoma congressman, this old line Republican, like, tweeting about how he saved these three things in Oklahoma from Doge. And like the whole thing just betrays how ridiculous it all is and how capricious it is. And, you know, it's like, okay, well, if you don't have somebody like Tom Cole, if you have a MAGA member who doesn't actually care about his district, then you're boned if you have one of those veterans hospitals, you have a Democrat, you're boned if you have one of these Social Security offices. Like, it's just an insane way to run the business. And I don't know. I was. I don't know if you saw it. Stacey Abrams was on Chris Hayes trying to defend her program.

Bill Kristol (17:27)

I don't actually think about it. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Miller (17:29)

I don't know anything about the program. All I know is I watched her explanation and it made it worse rather than better. And so I just pointed that out. I was like, Democrats, you know, people just genuinely. Including Democrats, by the way, including. This is a big initiative of Clinton Gore. Like, people genuinely don't. Like when there's just obviously waste and corruption. I don't know if it was either of those things for Stacy, but it surely didn't seem like it was useful. And, you know, I had these guys like, oh, now you get it. Now you're pro doge, like, replying to me and I'm like, no, like, you guys, like, this is not complicated. Right. Like, we can review programs, we can streamline things. God knows every. Every organization could use that. But, like, what is happening here is inhumane. I like your boy Al Green's comment on this. Maybe that can get us into Al Green. Al Green was talking about how it was just inhumane. Like, you're not treating people with dignity and you're not being serious about it. Like, it is just. And. And like, that's the part that is awful.

Bill Kristol (18:26)

Yeah. And Tom Cole, I think, is chairman of House Appropriations. He had been chairman of House Rules. He's a very senior member. And that has been sort of the establishment wing, you might say, of. Of the Speaker Johnson out, you know, group. And if he thinks it's wrong to close VA hospitals, he should stop them from closing everywhere, at least until there's a thorough review and so forth. And the same with Social Security officers or whatever else he saved in Oklahoma. It's really irresponsible, actually. He literally is going to sign off on a budget that's going to allow these things to continue to be closed, Right?

Tim Miller (18:57)

Yes. So they're working on this week. Crazy.

Bill Kristol (19:01)

What do you think of the budget stuff? I haven't followed it as closely as I should have.

Tim Miller (19:04)

I don't know. I'm interested. I do wonder if, like, the fact that things are going bad for them just objectively might make the House Republicans more likely to just be like, okay, like, we'll Just do a clean budget here and I'm not going to stir up trouble right now because like it's, we already have enough trouble out there, but who knows, right? I mean it's going to, I mean it is, it's a ridiculous budget, as if you are talking about cutting the deficit and debt, right? I mean even the most friendly assessment of it, I think by one of the MAGA economists had like 890 million increase and it's going to be much more than that. It does have the Medicaid and Medicare cuts and they haven't specifically said what they are, but it's, it's from this bucket that there's no other, you know, there's no other program that has that, that level of funding. And so it just like it's going to have to come from Medicare or Medicaid. And so I don't know. I mean I, at the beginning of the year I would have said I think that they shut this thing down. But now like Elon's kind of shutting the government down ad hoc and maybe they don't feel like they need to fight it right now, but it will just kind of depend on, you know, you're asking me to get inside the brain of Chip Roy, you know, like it's going to depend on like the brain of like these couple random people. Are they gonna want to stand by their, you know, commitment to cuts or a handful of people in the center, which I have no hope for, you know, stand by their opposition to Medicaid cuts.

Bill Kristol (20:42)

I mean, I feel like it sounds like there's some momentum behind this clean, quote, clean CR continued resolution for the rest of the year. It's not really clean. That's another question. Maybe they Democrats can expose some of the actual kind of hidden cuts there. But, but that's different of course from the actual reconciliation bill that has I think the right billion and all this, which has to which coming up soon. I mean they do have a pretty heavy lift just as a kind of even a normal circumstances they do.

Tim Miller (21:07)

The reconciliation bill will be. So it's worth mentioning both these things. The reconciliation bill on some levels will be easier because, you know, you only need 50 in the Senate. But on another way, it's going to.

Bill Kristol (21:17)

Be much harder in the Medicare. I mean the CR is just the cr, you know.

Tim Miller (21:21)

Exactly. So we'll have the details and, and that, and you know, the devil's going to be in the details on this stuff. The other thing I should have mentioned about this continuing resolution though is you do need Democrats on this one in the Senate. Right. So this is a little bit of a different calculation. I've had gone round and around many times about how Democrats should not be supporting a clean CR in the House because, like make Mike Johnson govern in the Senate because of the filibuster. They do actually need 60 from my interview with Fetterman, which was not exactly encouraging, he, to me it seemed like he would be for, he's going to be for keeping the government open.

Bill Kristol (22:02)

So.

Tim Miller (22:02)

But you're gonna need six other Democrats so that it might end up like that, that part of this might, might get a little pinky.

Bill Kristol (22:11)

That could be pretty interesting. Well, since we're talking transition down to the Democrats, so to speak, you mentioned, quote, my man Al Green. I don't know. I just woke up Friday morning and I was so annoyed by all that. Well, at first it got censured and, but I was actually kind of moved to see them singing We Shall Ever Come there in the well of the House and Mike Johnson ineffectually trying to gavel them and everything's quiet and then shutting the House. And then I went back and looked at the little video of I didn't watch the State of the Union but of Greene interrupting and everyone's being so high and mighty. Oh my God, decorum and respect for the presidency. And some Democrat even said it was something about I have a deep reverence for the presidency. You know, you're not supposed to have reverence for the, for the office of the president. He's the president. He's elected. You should respect him. You probably shouldn't routinely do what Al Green. Green did. But it was kind of an extraordinary moment anyway. So I went by slightly over the top morning shots Friday morning defending Al Green. And then there was various huffing and puffing. But, but then reading this weekend, there's, I want to ask you about, you know, the various Democrats hand wringing and worrying. We can't look this, we can't seem at all angry because that would be terrible, you know, and we have to look very calm and cool and collected. I thought, oh, what do they do? You know, I'm still, I mean, I'm in the pro Al Green mode.

Tim Miller (23:21)

But no, it's funny though is I forget who wrote it. So I'm sorry for not shouting you out, but there was like another substack post for somebody who's like the, the, the, the dividing lines on the left right now in the pro democracy movement are not really ideological and they're more about like tactical and what posture to take. And, you know, they're like, you got Al Green and AOC and Bill Crystal that are like, we should be more aggressive. So those are your new, new partners in crime there. But I count me in that bunch. I just, I don't. I don't. I think things are very bad. I think that there are a hundred different things that you could rant and rave about right now. I do not think that these people should be given any quarter. I don't think that they should be treated in the way that they would never treat Democrats. And, you know, I mean, I think that there's risk associated with that. You know, I've been joking on the pod. I'm like, every time I'm like, the Dems should do more Dems go do something. And I'm like, ooh, I don't know about that. So, you know, so there's risk associated with all that. But I don't think that much. I think a lot of this stuff is a conversation. I guess my main point is this. A lot of these tactical conversations are a little bit of fart sniffing among a bunch of people who are hyper engaged in politics and they have different views and some views are better than others. But, like, the only people that are even aware of their views or their tactics are people that read the Morning Shots or Political Playbook or the Punch bowl newsletter, right? Like, and in order to reach other people that are not political junkies, in order to like, break through and the fucking algorithms that they are consuming. Like, the only way to do that is to try to play on Trump and Elon's turf and to use, like, really highly emotional and passionate appeals and talk about things that regular people are interested in. And, you know, maybe there's a trickle down. I also don't know that. Who care. Like, we're also very far away from the election. But, like, that's like my basic view is this. Like, it's a lot of conversation around what we should do that is focused on what a bunch of people who have already. Who are already in the tent think, you know, and a bunch of people who are already in the tent read. And we appreciate all the people that are already in the tent reading us. But, like, from a strategic standpoint, it is not incumbent on me to not to talk, not talk about something on the podcast because it's not politically salient for the Democrats. Whatever. It's like the people listening to my podcast have pretty. Have a pretty developed view, right? And I think that, like, the Democrats should Just think about how to, how to come and, and you know, use the people that listen to our podcast as like an army of their own to kind of go post their own things and get out into their communities. I think that's useful and I think they should think about how to get outside of the bubble. So to me, the algorithm thing was a net, was fine, it was a net plus. I don't think it's, you know, whatever, you know, gonna be the memorable moment of Iwo Jima. There won't be a statue of him or anything. But I think more like that. Less timidity.

Bill Kristol (26:20)

Yeah. Anyway, they also have Alyssa Slotkin giving a good response afterwards, which I like. I like Alyssa and I. So that's fine, you can do both. I mean this is where they're also wrapped around the axle. It's a big opposition, you want a big opposition movement, you want a big opposition party. But really more than a party movement, which I will incently say they should use more non politicians to convey their messages. In that respect, people watching this are often going to be better messengers scattered around the country who know a lot about what these cuts are doing to their communities are better messengers than some, you know, 20 year Democratic politician. But it's also good to have Alyssa Slotkin give a thoughtful response and good for Al Green to show some righteous indignation. I don't think anything the idea that this is hurting voters or damaging the Democratic brand. No one cares about the Democratic brand right now. There's no election except in Virginia and New Jersey and New York City. I guess for until November 2026, you know, whatever the Democratic brand will be, it'll be the candidates who show up and what the issues of 2026 are and so forth. But for now, I think energizing people who like Al Green, while reassuring people who like Alyssa slot and you can do both. The party is a big party. They're too much think that they have to control it all. On my experience having been on the other side of this a little bit in government, it helped the Democrats when they were in opposition to the Republican administrations I was part of or to the Bush administration, which I was mostly friendly to, it helped the Democrats to have a lot of different voices actually. It helped to have the kind of troublemakers and indignant people and then the kind of sober, oh no, we're going to govern a responsible way. They got the best of both worlds in some ways. I mean, so I very much object to the kind of pretending the election is tomorrow so they have to control the message, A and B, that the politicians matter more than the people, if I can put it that way. Yeah. And see this notion that, that they can't have more than one voice or attitude or the one attitude might be reasonable for something for some set of issues and another for different kind of issues. Al Green's constituents are going to be hurt by this budget. He's allowed to say that. You know.

Tim Miller (28:16)

Yeah. I mean, we were talking about this a little bit on the phone, but, like, my view is, like, one thing that's missing, that is the void we're filling, I guess, is we could use some people in the Democratic Party that are moderate in policy, but radical and temperament and tactics. You know, like, that's fin. And by the way, I think they. I'm, as I always say, I'm like, I think the Democrats should have a populist left part of the party. To your point, like, you got to appeal to a lot of different people. But I was annoyed about the censure vote. Like, the types of politicians that I would like the most in the Democratic Party, you know, Guzen, Camperez, you know, Moscowitz. Right. Like, they were the ones that were, you know, saying we should play nice and hold hands and voting to censure Al Green. And I don't know, we could use. Everybody's talking about how the left needs a Rogan. I want the center left to have an aoc, like somebody with some balls, like she has.

Bill Kristol (29:10)

That's a good, that's a good. That's a good formulation. I may have to steal that to the.

Tim Miller (29:15)

Yeah, I'm your muse. I don't have to write anything.

Bill Kristol (29:18)

No, it's good. No, you're, you're.

Tim Miller (29:19)

Will you. Before we go, one of the things we want to talk about that I want you to rant about is the DOJ stuff, because I, I skipped over that and what they're targeting, Perkins, Cole, etc, because I do think it's really alarming.

Bill Kristol (29:30)

I mean, just the degree to which I, I. Yeah, the degree of politicization. I mean, it's so beyond the kind of marginal stuff that Bush tried to do a little bit with roe, with the U.S. attorneys, some stuff that I guess the Obama administration did. But again, I mean, they're just. You have Ed Martin, this, I guess acting now, was the interim U.S. attorney for D.C. very important job. Just doing stuff that you people couldn't have believed. I mean, really is. You pick it up and you think this is a maybe hungry or maybe a little worse than Hungary. I mean, it's. Why not worse. But it's more dramatic to see it suddenly here. It's. It was hungry. It's a little more gradual perhaps, in the way they went in this direction. Targeting the law firms. Targeting, you know, no due process, no nothing. Executive orders. Again, it's one thing Ed Martin, just do something, okay? He's an irresponsible jackass who's. D.C. the U.S. attorney for D.C. the EO. The executive order targeting Perkins Coy, I think it's pronounced the. The law firm was signed by the President. That's a presidential executive order targeting one law firm for what? For representing Hillary Clinton commissioning a study which may or may not have been perfect at the time. The people who did it happened to have left the firm, but that didn't leave in disrepute. It's just what law firms do. And sometimes the studies they commission aren't 100% accurate. It's actually more accurate than people think now. But that's a whole nother debate, I guess. They settled one case of. I can't remember some charge against them, which I'm sure every law firm has done in the last 10 years. And what. And they have some internal DEI procedures which again, every law firm basically, at least in Washington and New York and so forth, had over the last bunch of years. And for that they're supposed to what, they lose. People there lose security clearances, they. They don't have access to the government officials are instructed by Trump not to deal with them. Basically, if I'm not, if I'm not mistaken, maybe they can't get into government buildings. Who knows how much of the state ends up in court. But I was on one thread with some lawyers and there's a lot of we've got to stand solidarity with them, which is good. And I think they're a great firm. They can survive that. They can fight back. It's good that they're going to fight back. And someone else said, look, this is damaging. I mean, to them. This is where you can't be complacent about this. If you're a corporate CEO and you're thinking you've had a whole bunch of cases, possible cases and negotiations with the US Government, which most big corporations do follow.

Tim Miller (31:49)

Yeah.

Bill Kristol (31:50)

You can you hire a law firm or keep a law firm as your main legal representative, who the president of the United States has ordered cabinet officers not to deal with. It's. You got to kind of owe it to your shareholders to get someone who can get draw and make your case. So this will could well damage that firm, especially if the other law firms don't show civil solidarity, which I'm not sure if they will. It isn't there. I think there's a piece today, I haven't read it yet. I've got in the Times, maybe a journal. So thinking about how there's not a lot of solidarity so far to either Perkins or to Covington. So which is previously targeted again, the degree of authoritarianism, the degree of purposeful targeting, of trying to shape outside things. It's one thing to ruin the government and shape the government, do huge damage to government institutions. They're now trying to shape all the institutions on the periphery of the government or outside the government in business world and civil society and so forth. And that is real authoritarianism. Right? It's not just authoritarian government. You try to create an authoritarian society.

Tim Miller (32:48)

Yeah, no, and this is just another one of those examples, kind of the political we were talking about earlier, which is this is so alarming. Obviously white shoe DC lawyers are not going to be the sympathetic victim here that you run a campaign on. But it is extremely scary and alarming to have like the federal government individually targeting law firms, limiting their ability, limiting people's ability to get good representation. You know, there's only so many law firms that have expertise and security clearances and all this kind of stuff. I just think it's a real, it's a big deal.

Bill Kristol (33:18)

And the white and the white shoe guys may not be sympathetic, but a lot of what they're also being targeted for now, it looks like is doing pro bono work for poor immigrants and for poor, you know, victims of police brutality or any other liberal cause. That liberal cause, just a decency cause. I'd say that the Trump administration doesn't like. Whoever steps up to help the Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio that Trump advance are going to want to throw out. I mean, they're going to be targeted. So it does really have an effect on, on pro bono work and on, on sort of legal representation and advocacy for groups throughout society, not just for the, you know, the corporation that has to, you know, that's representing its presumably kind of, it's not such a sympathetic figure. So.

Tim Miller (34:02)

Right.

Bill Kristol (34:04)

Okay. That's great chat.

Tim Miller (34:05)

Thanks for doing this.

Bill Kristol (34:06)

Inappropriate, inappropriately, slightly worried and dire. Note 10 Don, thank you for joining me today here Sunday. Tim and I look forward to seeing you in SC Cup Monday and then resuming things with you a week from Monday.

Tim Miller (34:19)

All right, sounds good. See you later, Bill.

Bill Kristol (34:20)

Thanks. Thank you all for joining us.

Tim Miller (34:22)

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