Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "The Emperor Without Empathy" (Live Chat w/ Steven Beschloss & Jonathan V. Last)

Date: November 9, 2025
Host: Stephen (Steven Beschloss, guest host)
Guest: Jonathan V. Last (JVL), Editor at The Bulwark

Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This episode of Bulwark Takes explores the absence of empathy and the presence of cruelty in current American political leadership, particularly under Donald Trump’s second term. Host Stephen is joined by Bulwark editor Jonathan V. Last for a candid, sometimes darkly humorous discussion about recent events, the erosion of democratic norms, institutional weakness in the face of authoritarianism, and what effective political resistance looks like in 2025 America. The live chat is framed by breaking news, the aftermath of the most recent election, and a search for hope, practical action, and historical perspective.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Molecular Biology to Political Analysis

• Transition to Journalism
  JVL reflects on missing out on medical school and landing at The Weekly Standard (now The Bulwark), highlighting how his scientific background shaped his granular approach to politics and demographics.

  "There really is not a lot of difference between studying the rates of reaction than there is like studying population dynamic flows... it's just that you're talking about people in one of them and molecules in the other."
  — Jonathan V. Last (04:11)

2. The "Emperor Without Empathy" — Trump’s Oval Office Incident

• Metaphor of Cruelty & Sociopathy ([05:06]–[09:19])
  Stephen introduces the viral incident of Trump appearing detached in the Oval Office during a medical emergency—seen as an emblematic metaphor for his broader indifference to suffering.

  "Human distress is real. And it's weird. I just don't understand how a person can be like that."
  — Jonathan V. Last (07:40)

  • The conversation notes similar callousness in others present (e.g., RFK Jr. fleeing the room).

3. SNAP Benefits, Power, and Policy Cruelty

• Trump's Attempt to Halt SNAP Payments ([09:19]–[11:24])
  The hosts talk about the Trump administration's legal effort to block food assistance, analyzing the political calculus of targeting perceived "others" and a pattern of power for its own sake.

  "They've taken this position because they do not believe that it is legitimate for a court to order them to do anything."
  — Jonathan V. Last (11:12)

4. Authoritarianism and the Dissident Roadmap

• Lessons from Authoritarian States ([12:40]–[15:23])
  Stephen reads JVL’s March article on how Americans must start thinking like dissidents in autocracies, outlining a playbook for political resistance: organize mass movements, target bad actors, politicize everything, and focus on clear narratives of corruption and power.

  "We now see that most institutions are weak in the face of authoritarianism. We must stop viewing political life through the lens of American politics as we have known it..."
  — (Article, read at 12:40)

  • Both agree normalcy is an illusion; much of the right is invested in claiming things are unchanged to excuse inaction.

5. Erosion of Norms – Papers, Due Process, and Fear

• Concrete Effects of Illiberalism ([15:23]–[16:02])
  Discussion turns to ICE crackdowns, street detentions, and the real shift in American daily life.

  "We are a society now where you have to carry your papers with you."
  — Jonathan V. Last (16:01)

6. Election Reflections – A Referendum on Trump

• Interpreting the Results ([16:51]–[20:54])
  The hosts assess the recent election blowout as a rebuke to Trump, with particular focus on the alienation of Hispanic communities and the consequences of the administration’s deportation policy.

  "Trump ... had made real gains in those communities from 2016 to 2020 ... Those places swung by something like 50 points against Trump. ... This is about the deportation policy and ICE."
  — Jonathan V. Last (19:02)

  • Deep dive into shifting voting patterns in New Jersey and the inability to “walk back” draconian enforcement once implemented.

7. Information Ecosystems & Civic Engagement

• Catalysts for Change ([22:18]–[24:40])
  Stephen asks why protest numbers, while unprecedented (7 million at latest No Kings protests), don't scale even higher. JVL credits organizers for mobilization and highlights the critical importance of lopsided election margins to prevent extralegal power plays.

8. GOP’s Authoritarian Project

• Entrenchment of Illiberalism ([26:18]–[30:10])
  JVL estimates 35–55% of Republicans "just reject" liberal democracy, warning that a two-party system cannot survive if one side refuses the social compact.

  "You can't have a stable political system in a two party system where one party is not sure that it's committed to liberal democracy."
  — Jonathan V. Last (27:52)

9. Declining Faith in Democracy & the Lure of Authoritarians

• Structural Shifts and Historical Echoes ([31:41]–[34:50])
  The episode traces the weakening powers of political gatekeepers (parties, Congress) and how this opened the door for an overt authoritarian to gain mass support.

  "Once the Republican Party lost the power to gatekeep and an actual authoritarian got on the ballot, the voters saw it and were like, oh, I like this."
  — Jonathan V. Last (30:10)

  • Comparison to post-Civil War leniency and the dangers of failing to hold authoritarians accountable.

10. “Affordability Crisis” — Perception vs. Policy Reality

• Limitations and Inequalities ([36:10]–[42:40])
  JVL pushes back against the idea that affordability could easily improve, highlighting structural, global economic trends; Stephen drives home the optics and consequences of policy for everyday people.

  "Prices go up, they don't go down. ... We have a system that is red in tooth and claw and it always has been..."
  — Jonathan V. Last (36:10)

  • Rising oligarchy, tax policy, and the risks of unchecked billionaire power are discussed, with both agreeing that some change (redistributive, structural) is necessary for national security.

11. Policy Prospects: New Deal, Social Democracy, or Stalemate?

• Structural Reform or Authoritarian Backlash? ([44:17]–[48:55])
  They debate the appetite for sweeping social-welfare programs (e.g. Medicare-for-all or Scandinavian models) versus the persistent electoral strength of illiberal politics.

  "You are banking on the American people being different than who they are right now. And I don't think I want to take that side of that bet."
  — Jonathan V. Last (48:55)

12. The Future of the Authoritarian Project

• Outlook Beyond Trump ([49:32]–[52:07])
  JVL predicts the current illiberal trend will persist at least through 2032, with the GOP increasingly defined by its embrace of anti-democratic values, regardless of Trump’s eventual exit.

  "You're looking at almost a 20 year run where the Republican Party has been openly in favor of illiberalism."
  — Jonathan V. Last (50:39)

13. Call to Action: Everyday Engagement

• What Should Dissent Look Like? ([52:54]–[56:57])
  Both hosts stress the need for ongoing, multi-front activism: protests, candidates, direct action, and relentless solidarity.

  "There’s no reason to pick and choose. You can do everything everywhere all at once..."
  — Jonathan V. Last (52:54)

  • Stephen urges listeners to vote down the ballot, participate, support neighbors, and not imagine democracy can be saved by elections alone.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It’s one of those moments that seemed to encapsulate...the sociopath, who’s indifferent to [an] emergency." — Stephen (06:05)
• "Once you've bought the ticket for that, you have to take the ride." — JVL on immigration policy (20:54)
• "I don't yearn for more pain...but I think it's kind of unavoidable." — Stephen (54:15)
• "America is a place where we don’t hold onto things and we tend to just go for the next shiny object." — JVL (31:41)
• "If you look at not just recent years, you can go back...20 years or more and talk about...the decline of belief in democracy." — Stephen (31:41)
• "You can't have a system in which Democrats have to win every time. That's just not sustainable." — JVL (28:00)
• "You cannot allow individuals to be so wealthy that the size of their wealth makes them competitors to the state." — JVL (43:39)
• "Citizen...responsibilities...extend beyond...voting...extends to speaking out, defending your friends and neighbors..." — Stephen (56:04)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:45 – 04:11: JVL’s path from molecular biology to journalism
• 05:06 – 09:19: Trump’s detachment in medical emergency, empathy in politics
• 09:19 – 11:12: SNAP benefits legal fight & regime priorities
• 12:40 – 15:23: Excerpt and analysis of "How to Think Like a Dissident"
• 15:23 – 16:02: Loss of due process and normalized fear
• 16:51 – 20:54: Interpreting election results as Trump backlash, Hispanic vote swing
• 22:18 – 24:40: Protest/civic engagement—what moves the needle?
• 26:18 – 30:10: Republican embrace of illiberalism—party and system-level threats
• 31:41 – 34:50: Historical roots, leniency, and consequences of unaccountable power
• 36:10 – 42:40: Affordability and structural injustice in the economy
• 44:17 – 48:55: Prospects for social democracy, appetite for reform
• 49:32 – 52:07: Projecting the future arc of American authoritarianism
• 52:54 – 56:57: Resistance: ongoing activity, not just voting

Conclusion

This live conversation provides a sobering yet energizing analysis of America’s current political emergency, rooted in both daily headlines and historical arc. The hosts paint a picture of institutional fragility, social division, and persistent threats to liberal democracy—but also identify protest, collective action, and overwhelming electoral margins as essential weapons in the fight ahead. The episode ends with a call for ongoing civic participation: voting, organizing, protest, and defending vulnerable communities every day, not just on election days.

"Fingers crossed," JVL says with weary hope. (52:06)