Podcast Summary

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Episode: The FDA’s Vaccine Death Email Looks Like a Political Stunt (w/ Demetre Daskalakis)
Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Jonathan (The Bulwark)
Guest: Dr. Demetre (“Dimitri”) Daskalakis

Overview

This episode dives into the recent turmoil around US vaccine policy and communication under Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The hosts discuss the FDA director's controversial email claiming newly found deaths due to COVID vaccines, changes to CDC statements on vaccines and autism, and the politicization of vaccine safety oversight. Special guest Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, who resigned from the CDC in protest, offers a candid scientific perspective on what these moves mean for public trust and public health, and previews what to watch for at this week's advisory committee meetings.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The FDA Director's Email: Deaths Linked to COVID Vaccines

• Event: The FDA director sent out an “explosive” email, alleging 10 deaths were linked to COVID vaccines and suggesting future changes in vaccine safety review. (03:28)
• Dr. Daskalakis:
  • Criticizes the email as a "very well curated" message seemingly intended for public release rather than internal scientific review.
  • Points out lack of transparency: “We need to see the work...understand how these deaths were reviewed.” (04:01)
  • Notes myocarditis concerns were already known but are now "exquisitely rare" due to changes in vaccine scheduling.
  • Questions the appropriateness of announcing such findings via email during a holiday (“a Thanksgiving email”) and without emergency meetings or data disclosure.

2. Understanding Vaccine Adverse Event Systems

• Jonathan: Clarifies role of reporting systems like VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System): “Anybody can report what they believe to be an…injury. There’s no verification.” (05:23)
• Dr. Daskalakis:
  • Explains VAERS is a "hypothesis generator," not a system to establish causality.
  • Real investigation requires higher-quality data systems and rigorous review.
  • Points out that other systems have not shown a credible signal of vaccine-related deaths.

3. CDC Website Changes – Vaccines and Autism

• Event: The CDC revised its website, now stating “it is not scientifically accurate to say vaccines do not cause autism.”
• Dr. Daskalakis:
  • Slams this as “a very strange formulation” that mirrors anti-vaccine talking points. (08:22)
  • Calls out cherry-picking and distortion of data: The document now falsely “creates enough doubt and confusion.”
  • Warns this serves to undermine vaccine trust and could destabilize the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

4. Undermining the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

• Context: The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program protects manufacturers and compensates legitimate claims.
• Dr. Daskalakis:
  • Explains the program’s structure and its intent to keep vaccine supply stable.
  • Warning: If autism is added—without evidence—a surge of claims could bankrupt the fund and scare off manufacturers. (10:39)
  • “That means they’re going to start saying it’s not worth being in this environment in the US producing vaccines and they may just stop making them.”

5. Politicization and Restructuring of Vaccine Advisory Panel (ACIP)

• Event: RFK Jr. fired the entire Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), replacing members with his own appointees.
• Dr. Daskalakis:
  • “All of the major medical associations…don’t trust the ACIP anymore.” (13:54)
  • Says many committee members are “ideology clones” of RFK Jr.; insurance companies are ignoring new recommendations, sticking to the “pre-zombie” ACIP.
  • Jokes about the “Zombie ACIP” and references “The Last of Us” fungus analogy.

6. Upcoming ACIP Meeting: What to Expect?

• Day One: Expected to be a "conspiracy theory fest"—discussions on vaccine adjuvants and safety concerns with little transparency or scientific rigor.
  • “They’re going to be talking about safety concerns around adjuvants that have not played out in any science before.” (18:01)
• Day Two: Focused on hepatitis B vaccine. RFK Jr. wants to delay the hepatitis B shot until age 12, despite clear life-saving data for early doses.
  • Risks of removing infant hepatitis B vaccine: “If a child gets hepatitis B early in life, 90% of them go on to chronic infection…25% will die early, either from liver cancer or from scarring of the liver called cirrhosis.” (20:49)
• Lack of Transparency: Meeting agendas are vague, with presentations not posted for public comment—deviating from traditional scientific standards.

7. The Danger of “Shared Clinical Decision Making” Label

• Dr. Daskalakis: Explains that while it sounds benign, in policy terms it creates paperwork and billing hurdles, adding barriers for vaccine access. (23:08)
  • “Their game is let’s really destabilize trust in the vaccine and make people really anxious…”

8. Trust in Institutions & Doctors

• Jonathan: Raises concern about mistrust in public health voices.
• Dr. Daskalakis:
  • Admits “never thought I would be” telling people not to trust the CDC (25:45)
  • Offers advice: “If you don’t trust me, trust your pediatrician…ask your doctor, ask your pediatrician about your kids and that should really guide you correctly.” (24:22)
  • Warns against trusting “politicians or people who are trying to promote conspiracy theories.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the FDA Director’s Email:
  “It would be foolish to send that email out, not expecting that it was going to somehow…be released to the media.”
  — Dr. Daskalakis, 04:13

• On CDC’s new autism language:
  “It is like saying that I have no evidence that umbrellas do not cause kittens. Right. Like, it’s a very strange formulation.”
  — Dr. Daskalakis, 08:55

• On ACIP appointees:
  “He just fired all 17 members…and now there’s more that were added…some are fabulous…[but] there’s a lot of other people that just sort of have their own agenda or who are ideology clones with RFK Jr.”
  — Dr. Daskalakis, 13:54

• On diminished trust:
  “All of the major medical associations really have said that they don’t trust the ACIP anymore.”
  — Dr. Daskalakis, 14:11

• On public health advice:
  “There’s so much noise going on right now that identifying…signal from noise is hard…what’s more important is that you have that interaction with your healthcare provider.”
  — Dr. Daskalakis, 24:36

• On the CDC’s current status:
  “…the scientists are hijacked on a plane that’s being run by people and the hijackers are running the website. So it’s hard to trust it.”
  — Dr. Daskalakis, 26:09

Important Timestamps

• 03:28: Start of FDA email discussion and skepticism about its intent
• 04:13: Dr. Daskalakis calls for transparency and data release
• 05:44: Explanation of VAERS and its limitations
• 08:22: CDC autism statement shift and its consequences
• 10:39: Detailed explanation of the vaccine injury compensation program and its risks
• 13:54: RFK Jr. fires ACIP, installs new (often ideologically aligned) members
• 18:01: Preview of ACIP meeting topics (“conspiracy theory fest”)
• 20:49: Life-or-death stakes of hepatitis B vaccination in children
• 23:08: Critique of “shared clinical decision making” in the vaccine context
• 24:22 & 25:45: How to find trustworthy vaccine info in a “hijacked” environment

Tone and Speaker Style

• Dr. Daskalakis is direct, scientific, and occasionally wry, using humor (“umbrella and kittens” analogy; “Last of Us” joke) to make complex topics accessible.
• The conversation is urgent, critical of current federal direction, and deeply concerned about public trust, but remains grounded in data and professional experience.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand the stakes and scientific realities of current US vaccine debates, as well as the dangers of politicizing public health processes. Dr. Daskalakis urges listeners to seek guidance from medical professionals rather than politicized or ideologically driven sources.