The Most Disgraceful Action By A Law Firm Ever (w/ George Conway)

Summary

Bulwark Takes: The Most Disgraceful Action By A Law Firm Ever (w/ George Conway) – Detailed Summary

Release Date: March 21, 2025

Hosts and Guests:

• Tim Miller – Host from The Bulwark
• George Conway – Legal commentator and critic

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Miller hosts George Conway to discuss what Conway describes as "the most disgraceful action by a major law firm"—a situation involving the prominent New York law firm, Paul Weiss. The conversation delves into the firm's capitulation under pressure from former President Donald Trump, exploring the implications for the legal profession and the broader fight against authoritarianism.

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2. Background on Paul Weiss and George Conway's Involvement

Paul Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP is introduced as a prestigious law firm based in New York City, renowned for its litigation prowess and influential legal work. George Conway provides a historical perspective, highlighting the firm's origins as a Jewish-founded counterpart to traditionally WASP-dominated firms and its legacy of high-profile legal engagements.

Conway emphasizes the firm's stature:

“It is one of the top four or five law firms to my mind, in the city of New York. It is considered to be one of the two or three best litigating firms in New York, I think by many people.” (00:58)

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3. The Capitulation of Paul Weiss

The core issue discussed is Paul Weiss's response to an executive order issued by Donald Trump targeting law firms that oppose his administration. Conway outlines the situation:

• Mark Pomerantz, a former partner at Paul Weiss, led investigations into Trump's business practices, which Conway and others deemed as targeting a "recidivist criminal."
• Under Trump's directive, Paul Weiss was ordered to dedicate $40 million in pro bono legal services supporting the administration's initiatives, including fairness in the justice system and opposition to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) policies.

Conway criticizes the firm's response:

“Paul Weiss agrees to conduct $40 million worth of pro bono legal services over the course of Trump's term to support the administration's initiatives...” (10:54)

He further condemns the firm's failure to stand up against Trump's overreach:

“It's like the dude, the guy's not even there anymore, and he didn't do any of this stuff of which you were probably guilty...” (06:56)

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4. Analysis of Trump's Actions and Authoritarian Tendencies

Conway characterizes Trump's executive orders as blatant attempts at authoritarianism, aimed at punishing and controlling entities and individuals who oppose him. He draws parallels to actions seen in other authoritarian regimes, such as Hungary, where institutions bend under pressure from centralized power.

Key points include:

• Divisive Tactics: Trump’s strategy divides entities and discourages resistance by making organizations feel isolated.
• Abuse of Power: Conway asserts that Trump is using government mechanisms to settle personal scores rather than uphold justice.
• Threat to Rule of Law: By undermining law firms like Paul Weiss, Trump is portrayed as eroding the foundational principles of the legal system.

Conway underscores the severity of Trump's overreach:

“He is engaging in the overturning of legislation by executive order, essentially USURPING the Article 1 powers of Congress. And he's continually undermining the courts.” (12:57)

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5. Broader Implications for Law Firms and the Private Sector

The capitulation of Paul Weiss is seen as a harbinger for other law firms and private sector entities, setting a dangerous precedent where financial incentives or pressures from powerful figures lead to ethical compromises.

Conway warns of a domino effect:

“But once people start making those concessions, the ramifications are very real. And it gives power to authoritarian style power to this president without even making them fight for it.” (15:24)

He draws attention to other firms like Perkins Coy and Covington & Burling, noting their resistance as commendable contrasts to Paul Weiss’s compliance:

“Their willingness to step up is such a sharp contrast to Paul Weiss and a lot of other firms.” (20:17)

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6. Conway's Moral and Professional Reactions

George Conway expresses profound disappointment and moral outrage over Paul Weiss's actions. He calls for immediate resignations of partners and associates who comply with Trump's orders, stating that failure to do so would signify a breach of ethical and professional standards.

His stance includes:

• Moral Obligation: Lawyers are officers of the court with a duty to uphold the Constitution and the rule of law.
• Professional Integrity: Continuing to support a morally compromised firm tarnishes one's reputation irreparably.

Conway insists:

“Any lawyers at the firm, partners or associates who don't promptly resign will defile their moral and professional reputations beyond repair.” (22:29)

He emphasizes the existential threat posed by such capitulations:

“If it is not [the case that lawyers resign], it is only because this country is lost.” (22:29)

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7. Conclusion and Reflective Thoughts

The episode concludes with Conway reflecting on the broader dangers of authoritarianism and the critical role that legal professionals play in safeguarding democratic institutions. He underscores the necessity for law firms to resist undue pressure and maintain their commitment to justice and ethical standards.

Final remarks include:

• Personal Impact: Conway shares his personal dismay and the emotional toll of witnessing such ethical failures.
• Call to Action: He urges lawyers to introspect and take a stand against compromising their principles for financial or political gain.

Conway poignantly states:

“People need to start doing the right thing because it's the right thing.” (23:59)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• George Conway on Paul Weiss's Legacy:

  “It is one of the top four or five law firms to my mind, in the city of New York.” (00:58)

• On Trump's Abuse of Power:

  “He is engaging in the overturning of legislation by executive order, essentially USURPING the Article 1 powers of Congress.” (12:57)

• Conway's Moral Standpoint:

  “Any lawyers at the firm, partners or associates who don't promptly resign will defile their moral and professional reputations beyond repair.” (22:29)

• Warning of Authoritarianism:

  “The biggest security threat to the United States of America is the President of the United States.” (21:29)

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Implications for the Future

George Conway's analysis serves as a stark warning about the erosion of ethical standards within the legal profession under political pressure. The capitulation of Paul Weiss could lead to a chilling effect where other firms may hesitate to take strong stances against powerful political figures, thereby weakening the checks and balances essential for a healthy democracy.

The episode calls on legal professionals and institutions to uphold their integrity, resist authoritarian overreach, and ensure that the rule of law remains inviolable.

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This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Tim Miller and George Conway, highlighting the critical issues surrounding Paul Weiss's actions and their broader implications for law, ethics, and democracy.

Transcript

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[George Conway]

Void where prohibited by law 21 +.

[Tim Miller]

Terms and conditions apply hey everybody, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark. Look who I got. It's George Conway. We're doing a little bonus segment of George Conway explains it All. He's going to explain to me, and this is the impetus for this, is that I was watching his blue sky Skeets. I call them Skeets. Nobody else does, but I'm going to. And he.

[George Conway]

We need to call him something.

[Tim Miller]

Yes, I like Skeets. People don't like it because in rap culture in like the 90s, Skeets had a. Had a term that you shouldn't Google if you don't like sexy talk. But I think that to me that just kind of makes it a little bit more exciting.

[George Conway]

Anyway, George, I can't help myself.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, I'll tell you offline. George wrote this. The Paul Weiss capitulation is the most disgraceful action by a major law firm in my lifetime. So appalling that I couldn't believe it at first. Paul Weiss, to be clear, for people like me who are not lawyers, is not a person, but is a firm, it's Paul Comma, Weiss that has done a lot of work in, in D.C. related cases. And they essentially just groveled and capitulated and were extorted by the President of the United States. George, why don't you explain what happened and why it's so outrageous?

[George Conway]

Yeah.

Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison is one of the preeminent law firms in the city of New York. It is a law firm that.

It's one of these firms that kind.

Of form because way back in the day you had your wasps and they didn't care much for Jews. And so the Jews formed their own law firm.

And this became one of the prominent.

Law firms to this day. And the full name of the firm is Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison. And Rifkind is a man who became.

Who became lionized in the bar, not.

Only because he was a very, very talented Lawyer, but he later became a judge and a very, very well respected judge.

And the firm, I mean, look, it's a stellar law firm.

It is, it is one of the top four or five law firms to my mind, in the city of New York. It is considered to be one of the two or three best litigating firms in New York, I think by many people. I've worked with them in the past. I've had many good relationships with people at that firm.

I think in more recent years, it's.

Become, as a lot of law firms have become, they've become much more mercenary and much more oriented toward the bottom line. Not that these firms in New York never made a lot of money, but they make oodles and oodles of money. I work for one right across the street from Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison. And, you know, I mean, one of the reasons why I can shoot my mouth off today is I made a lot of money there and everybody can. You know, I have no Fs to give anymore.

And I. And here what happened was Paul Weiss had a former partner, a retired partner named Mark Pomerantz.

And Pomerantz decided, because he was a patriot and because he reached the same conclusion that I and a lot of people did early on in the Trump administration, that Donald Trump was a recidivist criminal. And, you know, there were a lot of suspicions about the shady real estate.

Deals he engaged in and whether or.

Not he paid taxes and in particular, whether or not he, for example, overstated valuations for the purposes of valuations of his real estate properties for the purposes of getting bank loans and for the purposes of making insurance claims, while at the same time understating it for tax purposes and just playing, you know, having double sets of book and doing all sorts of bad things.

And Palmer Ants. And another very prominent lawyer, a former partner at another one of the stellar.

Law firms in New York, Davis Polk and Wardwell, and a guy named Carrie Dunn, who at one point was president of the association of the Bar of the City of New York, one of the most prominent local bar organizations in the country, if not the planet. They joined as special Assistant District attorneys the Office of District Attorney, then District Attorney of Manhattan, Cy Vance.

And they proceeded to investigate Donald Trump.

And that resulted in some litigation. Fast forward to the present. Donald Trump is settling scores now that he is President of the United States again, and he is settling scores in particular with law firms and conducting, you.

Know, a campaign against law firms and has said that he is going to get all the bad lawyers, basically the ones he feels did bad things to him.

And there was the Perkins Coy executive order, which I'm sure you've discussed on other podcasts. I've discussed. We've discussed it on my podcast. There was an order against a law firm in Covington and Burling, and then they issued an order against Paul Weiss.

And the order was basically based upon the fact that Paul Weiss had an association with this longtime partner, former partner Pomerantz, who then retired and then went on to the DA's office and prosecuted Donald Trump, even though his actions in working for the District Attorney of the City of Manhattan county of New York county had nothing to do with his.

Work of Paul Weiss. It just happens to be that he.

You know, Paul Weiss is on his resume.

And the President issued an executive order saying that Paul Weiss was some kind of a danger to the nation and.

All terrible and needed to be punished and placing. Yeah, I mean, all sorts of stuff. And it's like, the dude, the guy's not even there anymore, and he didn't do any of this stuff of which you were probably guilty, at least from.

A civil burden of proof while he.

Was at Paul Weiss and Paul Weiss, you know, I mean, lots of people, Paul Weiss go in and out of government. Mostly it's a Democratic firm, which makes.

What happened all the more shocking. I mean, one of the partners there is Jeh Johnson, a former head of what, DHS under Obama in the. I think, was it the Obama administration? Very, very smart and capable guy. Damian Williams, the former United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, who was the United States. One of the United States attorneys, most recently, he was during the Biden administration, who indirectly oversaw the prosecution of Mayor Adams.

And basically, they punish this law firm for basically nothing. I mean, first of all, everything Pomerantz did was legal. He was conducting a legitimate investigation, the facts of which ultimately resulted in civil sanctions against Trump. And the only thing you could criticize Pomerantz for is really no business of Trump's. It was the fact that he later wrote a book about the investigation and.

His experience about the investigation.

And people have raised questions about whether that was ethical and proper, but that really is a question of his ethical obligations to the office of the District Attorney. So, anyway, what happens is this happens, and everybody thinks, well, Paul Weiss is.

Going to fight, because this is completely ridiculous.

It's unconstitutional.

It is a violation of the First Amendment.

It is an abuse of the public power of the presidency, as was the Covington and the Perkins Cooey memos and.

All these other memos and all these other executive orders for all sorts of reasons. The abolishment of the Department of Education for different reasons, because he doesn't have the power to overturn the statute of Congress with an executive order.

But this one was particularly outrageous. Everybody just assumed Paul Weiss was going.

To give Donald Trump the finger.

And because it's a, you know, it's known as an aggressive litigation firm that is their bread and butter, they fight, okay? You know, they're tough guys. They fight defending banks and defending, you know, defending their corporate clients, which, you.

Know, I would be perfectly happy if I were the general counsel of Citibank, which has been a big client of theirs over the years, to have them.

On my roster of people who defended.

My company from claims.

And yet what happened was the managing.

Partner who I dealt with in the past, I know him, he's a very kind of slick guy in a very. A very smart guy and a very able guy.

And he's kind of remade.

Helped. He's kind of remade that firm in a lot of ways. Some good, some bad, in my opinion.

You know, the news was, he's coming down to the White House to talk to the President. And everybody was like, what? What's there to talk about? And then last night, there was this settlement announced by Donald Trump where Paul Weiss agrees to conduct $40 million worth of. If I have this right.

I mean, I saw it in the middle of the night.

[Tim Miller]

I have it right here. I'll just. I'll just read it to you. You can read it. Yeah.

[George Conway]

Read it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Paul Weiss will dedicate the equivalent of 40 million in pro bono legal source Legal Services over the course of Trump's term to support the administration's initiatives, including fairness in the justice system. We know what that means for these guys. And the President's Task Force to Combat Anti Semitism also said that Paul Weiss will not adopt, use, or pursue any DEI policies. Paul Weiss will take on a range of pro bono matters that represent the full spectrum of political viewpoints of our society. Especially. He doesn't say especially including, including conservative, quote. So there you go.

[George Conway]

I mean, you know, look, I have.

No problem with pro bono conservative work.

I've done some myself over the years.

[Tim Miller]

Demanded to by the President of the United States as part of an extortion scheme.

[George Conway]

And also, the definition of conservatism under the Trump administration to my mind, isn't conservative. It's fascistic and authoritarian.

And it's, you know, I Mean, this is stuff that would make, you know, make Ronald Reagan go, you know, roll his grave and certainly stuff that would make the founders of Paul Weiss, such as Judge Rifkin, Rollover and Gray.

They believed in the public interest. They didn't believe in the use of.

Government authority in a narcissistic and self serving fashion by a man who not only fails to conduct himself in accordance with his oath to faithfully execute the laws and the Constitution of the United.

States, but outright act, abrogates it and.

Seeks to destroy the laws and undermine the laws in the Constitution of the United States.

And that's my, you know, and that's why I just found this so appalling.

There's no lawyer of any degree of intelligence who can't, who shouldn't be, who.

Could misunderstand the fact that Donald Trump.

Is engaging in a mass accretion of.

Power, trying to belong to the other branches. He's engaging in the overturning of legislation by executive order, essentially USURPING the Article 1 powers of Congress. And he's continually undermining the courts.

His people are misleading the courts.

They are attacking the courts, they're attacking judges who rule against him.

They are essentially trying, they are, in.

A rather, not, in a rather obvious way, but not in an open declaration.

Sort of way, disobeying court orders.

I mean, this is the, we are down the path to authoritarianism and that's what causes, that's what caused this capitulation. And it is just the, it is just an astounding, astounding display of moral cowardice by people who have to know better, people who heretofore, I mean, you.

Stay, you raise your hand to become a lawyer.

I mean, you are an officer of the court. You're bound to support the law and.

The Constitution of the United States.

You have a moral obligation as a lawyer too, because you, you have defeated, you have dedicated yourself to joining a profession that is based upon the rule of law. You make money off the rule of law. You have, it's, it's a very special profession. I know everybody says let's shoot all the lawyers like Shakespeare did, but it's not like, I don't know, I pick.

Some other profession, although other professions have different ethical obligations and lobbying commitments.

[Tim Miller]

We can make fun of lobbyists down the hall.

[George Conway]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Could you. Down the hall, the same firm?

[George Conway]

Okay, yeah, you've written about that.

And it is, it is. I just, I don't think this would have happened in some other age. I think these law firms have become so Obsessed with the money that they make, which only makes it worse to my mind. I'm not against anybody making money. I am grateful for 30 years I.

Spent at a big New York law firm where I made more money than I probably had any right to make.

But that should, that should be the reason, a reason why you should be able to stand up to these people.

[Tim Miller]

Yes, right. And it should come with obligations.

[George Conway]

How many houses in the Hamptons do you need? I don't understand.

[Tim Miller]

And to me, George. So there are two related things to this. One is the. Because I want to come back to their individual choices, because I think you're calling for some people to quit. But before we get to that, just really quick, the bigger picture. This cowardice will have real ramifications across the country in how the private sector and law firms do their work and what they're willing to do and not willing to do. You're saying this wouldn't happen in another age, but it is happening right now in Hungary where companies are just folding, people are just folding, institutions are just folding. They're saying, look, if I get any pressure from the autocrat, then I'll let them dictate my hiring policies. We won't take on cases that will make him mad. And once people start making those concessions, the ramifications are very real. And it gives power to authoritarian style power to this president without even making them fight for it. They're just submitting to it. They're just handing it over to him.

[George Conway]

I couldn't agree more, Tim. And I think there are two levels.

Upon which you can look at it. First off is one of the things that authoritarians do is they divide and conquer. You think you're alone, you don't want.

To be single out, so you capitulate. And that sets an example for the next one. That's the general level.

And that applies to corporations, media entities, for example, like ABC when it settled that absolutely nonsensical lawsuit about George Stephanopoulos calling Trump an adjudicate, essentially an adjudicated rapist, when the judge had said three.

Times that what Trump had been found.

To have done by the jury, while not technically rape under New York law, was in any ordinary colloquial sense rape. Because, you know, I mean, there's no real moral difference to my mind between violently inserting one's penis into a woman.

A non consenting woman's vagina and inserting.

Your finger in there. But some, for some reason, that Trump decided that was a big moral difference.

To him and he filed a lawsuit.

And then ABC shamefully threw Stephanopoulos under the bus and settled it.

But this is the second point to go back to. The second one is that one is the sort of you, you divide and conquer, and everybody feels like they're standing out there alone and they can't do anything, and they just don't want him to come after me.

And, and, and, you know, there's sort of a domino effect.

But the second is, who is Paul Weiss? This is a law firm. These are the people you hire to defend yourself when you have been wronged. These are the people who you would hire to defend yourself against wrongful action by the government, against your business. And if they capitulate like wormy cowards the way they have, what is that? That's the message that, that in particular sense that a, an aggressive, litigating law firm acts like, like just, I, I don't even. There's got to be a better word than just shameless, slimy coward that I.

Can'T, you know, I need. We need.

The problem with the Trump era is we need, we need an extended thesaurus to come up with more negative descriptions.

Of people and things we need to think about.

[Tim Miller]

I need, or we need a more.

[George Conway]

Familiarity with why should any other law firm fight? Why should any of, when should any corporation fight?

[Tim Miller]

And, and, or, by the way, if you're, if you're an individual who wants to fight that you're losing people that you would go to, to potentially defend you. Right. Like, so if Perkins Cooey can't do it because they're under executive, you know, they're getting attacked by the President, you can't trust Paul Weiss to do it. Right. Like you're running out of qualified people to do it.

[George Conway]

Yeah. And as the judge pointed out in the Perkins Cooey hearing that I had.

The good fortune of sitting in and watching last week, they could go after.

Perkins Coy's lawyers now, Williams and Connolly, which showed an incredible degree of courage. And I admire them even more now.

Because their willingness to step up is such a sharp contrast to Paul Weiss and a lot of other firms.

There's no end to it, because these orders, these executive orders, are premised on the notion that Donald Trump can just declare anyone he doesn't like to be a threat to the, I guess, national security of the United States. And he's arrogating to himself, he believes that if he makes that determination in his sole judgment that somebody is a threat to the United States, then he.

Can do whatever he wants to them. And have the use every mechanism available.

To him to punish that entity. And what. What in fact is going on is these people aren't threats to the United States of America.

The biggest threat, the biggest security threat to the United States of America is the President of the United States.

But let's leave that aside. He's just using the government as a proxy. He's just using it as an extension of his own personal interest, as a way to convene. You know, these people did me wrong while I was not president. Therefore, now that I am president, I'm going to use the arms of the mechanisms of government to destroy these people, or at least bring them to heel and make them grovel. And that. That is just straight out authoritarianism. That is we are there.

[Tim Miller]

This is last thing. I'll let you go. The. You wrote also that any lawyers at the firm, partners or associates who don't promptly resign will defile their moral and professional reputations beyond repair. You've had a chance to sleep on that. You still. You still think that?

[George Conway]

Yeah.

I believe that to be true. I hope that to be true.

If it is not, it is only because if that is not true, if that turns out to be true, this country is lost.

Okay?

Because if the people who are standing by Paul Weiss and staying there and allowing this to happen, you know, are not morally shunned, then we're done. We're done. Because that means that people are willing to put their own personal interest, their own fears, their own pocketbooks and whatnot ahead of the Constitution and the laws of the United States, the system that made it possible for these people to achieve the success that they have achieved. And I cannot believe that there aren't going to be lawyers who are just.

Going to be sick about this and who aren't. Who are going to leave. And I think the associates ought to be. I mean, I think. I hope that this backfires.

And if it doesn't, we've got a big problem. People need to start doing the right.

Thing because it's the right thing.

People need to look themselves in the mirror and say, do I care about my country? And I'm going out there and I'm saying this. I attacked Brad Karp, the chairman of.

Paul Weiss, the other day, who I know and. And also an old friend of mine who I think had something to do with organizing this.

[Tim Miller]

Have you heard Paul?

[George Conway]

I think it was done more than more by some guys in Washington.

But.

[Tim Miller]

You know, no return phone call from him yet.

[George Conway]

I. I don't think he'd want to call me, basically. You know, I don't want to give.

More of it to him. And it hurts me, it pains me.

To have to do that.

I mean, I, you know, I, I, we, And you have this, had this experience, too.

I, I know, given you came through, you know, the political road. Yeah. To where you are today. And I came through kind of the legal thicket to where I am today. But, you know, I get people capitulate and do the wrong thing. I've done the wrong thing in the past. You've done the wrong thing in the past. No doubt a whole book about it.

And, but there's a certain point where you have to look yourself in the.

Mirror and say, how did we get here?

And it has been so distressing to me to see how many people who know better, who should know better, basically, out of moral, moral apathy, moral cowardice and moral corruption, some combination of those three basically accede to or join in on things that they know to be wrong. That's the thing I will never get over. I mean, I can understand there's going to be some of it, but I can't get over the degree to it. And the Paul Weiss thing, to me was just absolutely flooring. I did not believe the news at.

First when I first saw a couple of tweets about it, because I thought, oh, maybe some reporters just getting fed some bullshit from the White House. And then I saw Trump's statement was like, well, Trump's full of shit. Although, gee, it looks to be some carefully worked out text.

And then I saw, you know, the time story, and it was true. And I called some friends and they said, yep, Karp did this, Paul Weiss did this. And to finish it off, I.

Lost.

My train of thought here, but I really, here's what the point I wanted.

To make and one of, maybe this is a good way to finish.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[George Conway]

I am more upset this morning about.

What happened with Paul Weiss than I.

Was the morning after the election.

[Tim Miller]

And because you held them in higher regard, you'd expected more from them.

[George Conway]

I held them in a higher regard, I guess, than the average voter. Than the average voter, I guess. But I think it's more, I guess that's true, but I think it's more that I was psychologically prepared for a.

Trump victory after seven years, eight years of watching this show that we have will someday, someday, historians will reflect as just a black mark on the history of the United States, if it ever, if it survives.

I was prepared psychologically for Trump's win. I mean, that's why I spent so much effort trying to defeat him. Even though I had convinced myself by the end that I thought Kamala was.

Going to squeak by and pull it off.

I woke up that morning, I said, okay, well, it happened.

And I did my best, you know, with a lot of other people, to try to make sure it didn't happen.

I was psychologically prepared for it. I knew that it was a possibility that I put anywhere from 20 to 40%, sometimes 50%, depending on how things were going.

You know, I knew it could happen.

But last night is something I couldn't ever.

I couldn't imagine it.

I couldn't imagine working at that firm. I couldn't imagine, you know, just capitulating in such a shameful and weak and cowardly fashion. And in the same way I can't imagine going to.

If I were Paul Weiss, going to.

Work today without cleaning out my fucking desk.

And.

I hope. I mean, I hope this turns around somehow, but it really.

This is just a very, very disheartening moment.

[Tim Miller]

That is a good place to leave it. Thank you, George Conway, for explaining what was happening to me. And we'll be talking to you soon, brother. Hang in there, all right?

[George Conway]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

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