Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: The Trump Administration's Plan to Crush Dissent (w/ Tom Joscelyn)
Date: October 12, 2025
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Tom Joscelyn

Main Theme

This episode delves deeply into the Trump administration’s accelerating efforts to suppress dissent domestically, with a particular focus on how tools designed for combating foreign terrorism are being redirected at American citizens and organizations. Bill Kristol and Tom Joscelyn discuss the implications of mass deportation plans, the blurring of legal boundaries between foreign and domestic threats, the militarization of law enforcement, the erosion of civil liberties, and the dangers of normalizing authoritarian tactics. The conversation also explores points of resistance and hope, and the role of civil society in pushing back.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mass Deportation as a Pathway to Authoritarianism

• Trigger Event: Tom argues mass deportation is the "shortest path to an authoritarian regime." (01:45)
  • Quote: “The shortest path to an authoritarian regime is a mass deportation regime, and that's what they're pursuing.” — Tom Joscelyn (01:47)
• ICE and DHS are running a propaganda campaign to recruit operatives and justify raids by branding targets as “the worst of the worst,” which is often not the case in reality (01:53).
• Recent militarized raids, e.g., the Chicago apartment raid with Black Hawks, disrupted hundreds for two alleged gang members, showcasing disproportionate use of force (03:17).

2. Militarization, National Security Rhetoric, and Civil Liberties

• Legal Innovations: The administration has begun leveraging the foreign terrorist organization designation against domestic groups, despite the absence of legal precedent or process (05:33).
  • Efforts to define domestic groups as terrorist organizations circumvent the First Amendment and threaten broad categories of dissent.
• Domestic Crackdown: Use of militarized force justified by overblown threats, e.g., linking non-violent Portland protesters to “Antifa terrorism” (08:15).
  • Quote: “It's just not true that Antifa is this sort of looming threat that's really threatening ICE… Just a brazen lie.” — Tom Joscelyn (09:14)
• Aggressive surveillance expansion: The new National Security Memorandum broadens the definition of indicators for violence to include anti-Americanism, anti-capitalism, and critiques of Christianity, risking the surveillance of millions for protected speech (10:33).
  • Quote: “They're just describing the opinions and beliefs held by millions… This is really opening the floodgates to potentially use federal law enforcement against… people and organizations who just hold views that disagree with the administration.” — Tom Joscelyn (11:32)

3. Legal and Social Chilling Effect

• Investigations, even without charges, can destroy lives and intimidate organizations (12:55).
• The administration is reportedly targeting mainstream protest groups (Indivisible) and philanthropic organizations (Soros’ Open Society), often without credible evidence (12:55).
• Quote: “The federal government can destroy somebody's life without even bringing charges, right? Just by investigating them and putting them under the microscope of the federal government's awesome power.” — Tom Joscelyn (12:55)

4. Weaponization of Law for Personal and Political Ends

• Selective Prosecution: Example of NY AG Letitia James’ mortgage investigation—used as an example of how trivial infractions can become harshly prosecuted when politically targeted (14:17)
  • “They don't have to have the criminal charge… but once you target these groups, everyone has to turn over all their records and their expenditures… God knows.” — Bill Kristol (15:11)
• Expansion of raids and arbitrary detentions—Americans with legal status are routinely caught in immigration sweeps, violating multiple constitutional amendments (15:29).
• Personalization of Justice: The administration openly claims the right to declare who is a criminal irrespective of longstanding norms.

5. Judiciary, Guardrails, and the Risks of Normalization

• Many actions are slowed by litigation; however, the administration continues pushing boundaries and evading court injunctions (17:25).
• Normalization of previously unimaginable abuses: Trump is openly breaking established DOJ-White House boundaries that go back to Watergate.
  • Quote: “Trump… just used those words. He just went in and totally broke down that wall very quickly… and they've been operating that way ever since.” — Tom Joscelyn on Trump's “I am the nation’s chief law enforcement officer” speech (21:08)
• Pardons of January 6 insurrectionists indicate willingness to use the clemency power as a tool for impunity and to reward personal loyalty (22:31).
  • “He just did a blanket commutation of sentences… including the leader of the Proud Boys who actually led the attack on the U.S. capitol.” — Tom Joscelyn (23:53)

6. Institutional Capture and Purge

• Removal of “roadblocks” within DOJ, FBI, Department of Defense, and other agencies: most senior positions now filled with loyalists (26:07).
• Culture is one of contempt for oversight and rule of law; new officials resist basic questioning or accountability (28:20).
• Importance of firing as an assertion of unchecked executive control over personnel—firing of diverse voices and those unwilling to comply across agencies (27:23).

7. Avoidance of Judicial Obstacles

• Strategic avoidance of invoking the Insurrection Act to minimize opportunities for legal challenges (29:32).
• Use of other authorities (e.g., 12406) for deploying the National Guard and military in U.S. cities—evidence of growing sophistication and bureaucratic learning (29:32).

8. Sources of Hope and Resistance

• Despite the onslaught, Tom remains more optimistic than some other Bulwark contributors:
  • There is still “a critical mass of people who don't want this” (30:48).
  • The “American multiculture” is still present despite the dominance of MAGA-centric narratives; cultural diversity and resistance remain strong.
  • The regime's victory is not inevitable; historical outcomes are contingent and can be changed by civic action and protest (32:01).
• Importance of peaceful protest: Growing civil disobedience and public demonstrations can alert wider society to the extremity of the administration’s actions (33:02).
  • “Peaceful, nonviolent civil disobedience… that's one of the keys going forward.” — Tom Joscelyn (33:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Mass Deportations & Authoritarianism:
  “The shortest path to an authoritarian regime is a mass deportation regime, and that's what they're pursuing.” — Tom Joscelyn (01:47)

• Militarized Raids Example:
  “Blackhawk helicopters hovered above this residential premises…ripping people out of their homes, zip tying U.S. citizens and possibly even children.” — Tom Joscelyn (03:20)

• Expansion of Terrorism Powers Domestically:
  “[They’re] trying to use this foreign terrorist organization, this combating foreign terrorist architecture… and turn that against domestic groups.” — Tom Joscelyn (06:08)

• Targeting Speech, Not Just Acts:
  “[They] open the door for… investigations… purely based on speech... anti Americanism, anti capitalism, critiques of Christianity… these are beliefs held by millions.” — Tom Joscelyn (11:32)

• Weaponization of Justice:
  “Trump is claiming he’s the nation’s chief law enforcement officer and the criminals are, in fact, whoever he says they are. That’s just terribly dangerous territory.” — Tom Joscelyn (15:42)

• Normalization of Authoritarian Behavior:
  “Trump… just went in and totally broke down that wall [between DOJ and White House] very quickly… and they’ve been operating that way ever since.” — Tom Joscelyn (21:08)

• Blanket Pardons — Rewarding Violence:
  “He just did a blanket commutation of sentences… including the leader of the Proud Boys who actually led the attack on the U.S. capitol.” — Tom Joscelyn (23:53)

• Broken Reality and Victimhood as Ideology:
  “Their entire movement is unaccountable to the truth of reality whatsoever. So the same types of lies that gave us January six are the same types of lies that they say that Portland’s on fire.” — Tom Joscelyn (24:52)

• Hope and Counterculture:
  “The American multiculture is still there…after the 2024 election, I think it’ll get its groove back. The MAGA monoculture has Kid Rock, we’ve got Lin-Manuel Miranda… I’ll go with Miranda any day over Kid Rock.” — Tom Joscelyn (32:06)

• Peaceful Resistance:
  “Peaceful popular protests and growing peaceful, nonviolent civil disobedience… I think that’s one of the keys going forward.” — Tom Joscelyn (33:10)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Psychological Divide among Commentators: 00:00–00:59
• Mass Deportation’s Significance: 01:45–02:46
• Militarized Domestic Raids: 03:17–05:33
• Legal Distinction: Foreign vs. Domestic Terrorism: 05:33–07:43
• Antifa, Portland Protests, and Rhetoric: 08:15–09:28
• National Security Memorandum — Chilling Effect on Speech: 10:33–12:00
• Impact of Investigations Without Charges: 12:55–14:17
• Selective Prosecution Example (Letitia James): 14:17–15:29
• Removal of Institutional Guardrails: 26:07–28:20
• Avoidance of the Insurrection Act; Legal Sophistication: 29:32–30:31
• Sources of Hope, the “American Multiculture”, and Protest: 30:48–34:21

Conclusion

Kristol and Joscelyn paint a detailed, sobering picture of the Trump administration’s ongoing authoritarian project, with clear warnings about the dangers of using national security tools against dissent at home. They underscore the normalization of extreme abuses, the systematic purge of institutional checks, and the importance of civic resistance, peaceful protest, and holding onto the American tradition of pluralism and liberty. The episode ends on a note of cautious hope, emphasizing that history is not predetermined, and that society has both the means and the responsibility to push back.