← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:02]
Tim Miller
Actuaries use their math skills for good. They take on the world's greatest challenges, reducing risk and increasing opportunity. And that means the only thing higher than their pay is their job satisfaction. Hey, guys. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with managing editor Sam Stein. We were watching the morning shows this morning, much to get to, but two things that jumped out are two of my old people, two neocons, Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio. Both were making the rounds. Lindsey Graham was on CBS's Face the Nation as, as was Marco Rubio, actually. And they both had some pretty interesting, interesting takes as they tried to rationalize the attacks on free speech coming from this administration. I want to play both clips. Do you have any top line thoughts, though, Sam?
- [00:49]
Sam Stein
No, let's play it and react.
- [00:50]
Tim Miller
All right, here we go. Let's. Let's watch. First, little Marco Big Ears, can you.
- [00:56]
Lindsey Graham
Substantiate any form of material support for terrorism, specifically to Hamas, from this Columbia student? Or was it simply that he was espousing a controversial political point of view?
- [01:09]
Marco Rubio
Well, not just the student. We're going to do more, in fact, every day now. We're approving visa revocations. And if that visa led to a green card, the green card process as well. And here's why. It's very simple. When you apply to enter the United States and you get a visa, you are a guest and you're coming as a student, you're coming as a tourist or what have you. And in it, you have to make certain assertions. And if you tell us when you apply for a visa, I'm coming to the US to participate in pro Hamas events that runs counter to the foreign policy interest of the United States of America. It's that simple. So you lied. You came. If you had told us that you were going to do that, we never would have given you the visa. Now you're here. Now you do it. You lied to us. You're out. It's that simple.
- [01:48]
Lindsey Graham
But is there any evidence of a link to terrorism or is it just his point of view?
- [01:55]
Marco Rubio
Yeah, they take over. I mean, do you not? I mean, you should watch the news. These guys take over entire buildings. We vandalize colleges, they shut down.
- [02:02]
Lindsey Graham
I'm asking about this.
- [02:03]
Marco Rubio
Well, then you should know.
- [02:04]
Lindsey Graham
Justification for the revocation of his visa. Was there any evidence.
- [02:08]
Marco Rubio
Was the negotiator on negotiating on behalf of people that took over a campus that vandalized buildings? Negotiating over what? That's a crime in and of itself that they're involved in being the negotiator the spokesperson, this, that, the other. We don't want. We don't need these people in our country. We never should have allowed them in in the first place. If he had told us, I'm going over there and I'm going over there to become the spokesperson and one of the leaders of a movement that's going to turn one of your allegedly elite colleges upside down. People can't even go to school, library buildings being vandalized. We never would have let him in. We never would have let him in to begin with. And now that he's doing it and he's here, he's going to leave and so are others, and we're going to keep doing it. And by the way, I find it ironic that a lot of these people out there defending the First Amendment speech, alleged free speech rights of these Hamas sympathizers. They had no problem, okay, pressuring social media to censor American political speech. So I think it's ironic and hypocritical, but the bottom line is this. If you are in this country to promote Hamas, to promote terrorist organizations, to participate in vandalism, to participate in acts of rebellion and riots on campus, we never would have let you in if we had known that. And now that we know that, is.
- [03:14]
Lindsey Graham
It only pro Palestinian people who are going to have their visas revoked or are other points of view as well?
- [03:20]
Marco Rubio
No, I think anybody who's here in favor. Look, we want to get rid of train Naragua Gang members. They're terrorists, too. The president designated them, asked me to designate, and I did, as a terrorist organization. We want to get rid of them as well. We don't want terrorists in America. I don't know how hard that is to understand.
- [03:36]
Tim Miller
I mean, you have to admit. We'll get to the substance. You have to admit it's kind of astonishing. Just like the size of the ears. It's like a Pinocchio situation. The. Where. Where do you want to go with this? The. The fact that he's gonna do that. There's plans for more revocations of visas like the one we've seen with.
- [03:55]
Sam Stein
I just find. Yeah, I just think it's. I guess it brings up the perennial question is, like, does he believe it? Like, do we think he believes this stuff? Because if you just sit back and you listen to it, it's. He's not even. There's no pretext that this guy, even. That Mahmoud Khalil, even supported Hamas. I mean, he can't come up with any evidence whatsoever that he was related to Hamas. That he had any involvement with Hamas, merely that he was part of this protest of the. Of the war, and that that group that he protested with was generally sympathetic towards Hamas. But that's not. I mean, if that's what we're going on, that's thin stuff. And it's sort of like, you know, this is just the start, and we don't want these people in our country. If he had applied stating that he felt this, we never would have let him in. I mean, take that to its logical conclusions. And it's kind of a little bit frightening, right? Like, we're going to police people and have thought. Police for people entering the country. No diversity of opinion. I get that this dude's radical. Mahmoud Khalil. I'm not. I don't support.
- [04:58]
Tim Miller
I also understand, like, I guess here's the most generous thing I can say about Marco's answer.
- [05:03]
Sam Stein
Okay.
- [05:04]
Tim Miller
In the. In the most micro, right. If you were applying for a visa, you know, and when you do apply for a visa, they ask you various things. The purpose of your travel.
- [05:13]
Sam Stein
Do you support a terrorist group? Yeah.
- [05:15]
Tim Miller
Right. So if you said on that visa application, I intend to come to America because I am going to start protests on the campus, you know, where I will organize in defense of foreign terrorist groups, we can quibble over whether that's what he's doing. But. But then you wouldn't get a visa. Right? Like, we're not. We're not like, handing out visas to.
- [05:36]
Sam Stein
I get that. Yes.
- [05:37]
Tim Miller
Right. So. So, like, in the. In the very narrow. And I understand that, but it' What. That. That does not give any rationalization for the treatment of him at, like, post hoc.
- [05:49]
Sam Stein
It's also. It's also sort of. What's the word? It's. It's dealing in absolutes. Right. Obviously, he wouldn't say, hey, I, you know, I support terrorism and I'm, you know, blocking. You know, I'm causing disruptions because I. I want to genuinely prop a Hamas. And also, there's less, you know, clear examples of protests where you start getting in that slippery slope.
- [06:14]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [06:14]
Sam Stein
I mean, what if someone was just on the campus and they were, you know, holding a sign, but not disrupting a student's entry to a building? I mean, at what point do you say, okay, you're acceptable or not? And I personally am not comfortable with the line that they've drawn. But my question is, is Marco Rubio in his heart?
- [06:31]
Tim Miller
I think he is, actually. I think that there's a. I think that there's another clip of him defending the tariffs on champagne, where he sounded a little less compelled. I think he is. I think that Marco is.
- [06:43]
Sam Stein
What is the level of protest that Rubio is comfortable with? Like, if Mahmoud Khalil.
- [06:48]
Tim Miller
I think Marco believes that we should only be allowing people into this country that love Maga, that love America, that think America is great, that want to. That don't think, you know, that want to wear back to back World War champs T shirts and like, whatever, you know.
- [07:03]
Sam Stein
I think that that's a good question, though. If someone came in and they were supporting the Democratic Socialist Party, right. Like, would he say, that's not in America's foreign policy interest? I mean, these are obvious questions that this conduct raises. And would you use the power of the Secretary of State to deny someone a student visa who was part of a socialist institution on campus?
- [07:24]
Tim Miller
Yeah. I mean, possibly with him. And we'll see. Because we're going to have more of these.
- [07:28]
Sam Stein
Yes.
- [07:29]
Tim Miller
That's the thing here are the most alarming things for me. Number one, the chill. Like he's clearly saying, yeah, we're trying to chill your speech. So you're here on a visa. Don't consider yourself to have free speech rights. This is China. If you're here on a visa, like, treat it like China. If you're an American, maybe it's different. We'll see how things shake out next year once we get rid of all the visa people. The thing that you can get into this interview, which the last time we got together, we talked about this on the pod on Thursday. I had not yet seen the video of Khalil's detention. Have you seen it?
- [08:01]
Sam Stein
Yes. Where his wife is shooting the footage and just asking them for a name.
- [08:04]
Tim Miller
Let's actually, in case some people haven't seen it, I'll just dump in a little clip from that right now.
- [08:08]
Marco Rubio
But you're going to be under arrest, so turn around, turn around, turn around.
- [08:12]
Lindsey Graham
Turn around, turn around.
- [08:14]
Marco Rubio
Stop. Resist.
- [08:15]
Mahmoud Khalil
Okay. Okay. He's not resisting. He's giving me his phone. Okay. He's not. I. I understand. He's not resisting.
- [08:23]
Marco Rubio
We have.
- [08:23]
Sam Stein
You.
- [08:24]
Marco Rubio
You're going to have to come with us.
- [08:30]
Mahmoud Khalil
You guys really don't need to be doing all of that.
- [08:32]
Tim Miller
That's fine.
- [08:33]
Sam Stein
Maybe it's fine.
- [08:38]
Mahmoud Khalil
Okay. Hi, Amy. Yeah, they. They just like handcuffed him and took him. I don't know what to do. Okay. What should I do?
- [08:55]
Marco Rubio
I don't.
- [09:02]
Mahmoud Khalil
Nor let me ask. Can. Can we get a name, please? Of. Of. Can we get your name? I understand the lawyer is asking for your name. The lawyer's asking for your name. She's saying that. He's saying they don't give their names.
- [09:26]
David French
Oh, yeah, that's right.
- [09:30]
Mahmoud Khalil
I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
- [09:32]
Sam Stein
Immigration custody at 26 Federal Plaza.
- [09:34]
Mahmoud Khalil
She said. She said they're taking him to 26 Federal Plaza. Can you. Can you please specify what agency is taking him? Please? Excuse me. There nobody that. They're not talking to me. I don't know. Excuse me, the lawyer would like to speak to somebody. Oh, my God. They're literally, like, running away from me.
- [10:05]
Tim Miller
So to me, it's just like, even in the generous view of what Marco is saying, which is that. Which is that we're going to have some new rules. You know, people that have associations with foreign groups. We're not going to this country. I'm not for that. But even the most generous, then, like, there's ways to go about it. It's like, okay, we're going to take your visa. You have. You have time to, you know, challenge that in court if you want. Like, if you lose, then, you know, you're going to have to go back to Algeria or. Or Syria, you know, where your residence is. Like, at least that would be a defensible argument that they'd be putting forth. This is insane. Like, this isn't. This is Gestapo shit. Like, they. They sent a plain clothes guy in an Avengers tee. Wouldn't tell the wife who you.
- [10:46]
Sam Stein
Who they were. Right.
- [10:47]
Tim Miller
Wouldn't. Putting him in the back of an unmarked car and taking him and then flying into Louisiana. And then when the judge says, why did you fly him to Louisiana? They're like, well, there were bedbugs in the New Jersey holding cell. It's like, this is fucking ridiculous. And let him stay in his home. You know what I mean? Like, what. What is the risk here? There's no. You don't. You're not in. Yeah, he's not flight risk. He's trying to stay.
- [11:08]
Sam Stein
In fact. Yeah, you would.
- [11:10]
Tim Miller
You're trying to get him to leave. He's trying to stay. What's the flight risk? And you've provided no evidence that he's violent. It's absolutely insane treatment of this person. And. And so, like, that, to me is where, like, Marco is just really alighting. Like, the most, like, is doing everything he can to just focus on, like, this one narrow thing about how he wants to change the visa rules, which I think we can have a debate about, and just totally alighting. The horrific way that this guy has.
- [11:38]
Sam Stein
Been treated I totally agree. I come back to two things. One is, like, if it were on the other foot, I mean, I'm just painting hypotheticals. The Democratic administration going after, you know, right wing kids on campus who are here on visas because they're too closely associated with white nationalism.
- [11:55]
Tim Miller
Or how about, like, abortion rights? You know, like, they're going.
- [11:58]
Sam Stein
That's a good one.
- [11:59]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Pro life, Rat. They're going to pro life. And they're being, they're being a little.
- [12:03]
Sam Stein
Bit aggressive and, you know, abortion clinic. Get them out of the country. You would freak. You would freak out. Yeah, rightfully so. Secondly is, I just think, you know, look, if the goal here is to marginalize Mahmoud Khalil's viewpoints, this is about as dumb a move as you could possibly make. You've turned him completely into a cause. We're talking about it. We see all the videos all over the place. People are rallying behind him like maybe. And that might be it. They might want this fight. They might like this fight. I'm pretty sure they like this fight because it's the same thing with the, with the Aliens Enemies act that they're doing, right? They're going after Venezuelan guys. They're saying they're all gang members. They want Denver Democrats to engage in this fight and say, oh, no, don't, don't deport the gang members. But, you know, I just think it's, it's chilling.
- [12:48]
Tim Miller
Okay, I have one nitpick with you on this because I've heard you at this point a couple times about how he's going to become a rallying cry and all that.
- [12:54]
Sam Stein
You don't think so?
- [12:54]
Tim Miller
Well, maybe. I don't know. Maybe he is. I do notice, though, it is notable to me that the, like, the big Genocide Joe protests, like the big protests that were happening against Biden and against Kamala, still not really seeing that. I mean, like, there are some protests about their protests.
- [13:12]
Sam Stein
Are you seeing any? See, none.
- [13:14]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I mean, very. There's. I don't want to sound like there's nothing happening, but very minimal.
- [13:19]
Sam Stein
Yeah.
- [13:19]
Tim Miller
And I don't know, I think there's something maybe revealing there about the fact that the folks are very excited to protest Joe Biden on.
- [13:29]
Sam Stein
Maybe they're excited for Trump Gaza. Maybe that was the end result there.
- [13:35]
Tim Miller
So tbd, I'll be, I'll be monitoring you. Protesters protest on Maverick Leela, and then we can agree on something. But, you know, don't, don't intimidate Jews while you're doing it, if possible, please. Okay.
- [13:45]
Sam Stein
Fair enough.
- [13:46]
Tim Miller
The Lindsey Graham. Lindsey, let's go to his clip. This is just to set the scene here for people who haven't paid that close of attention to this. There are these two law firms in D.C. that Trump has gone after.
- [13:58]
Sam Stein
Three now.
- [13:59]
Tim Miller
Three now. They're private law firms. They were either representing the, you know, the Jack Smith, you know, they're, they're either representing the whistleblowers that went after Trump in certain cases. They have associations with the people that were investigating Trump, Steele dossier stuff, things like that. Yeah, some of them were related to Steele dossier. So it's all, it's the bad lawyers, the lawyers that Trump says we're going after him, the ones he doesn't like. He's gone after both of these law firms, or, excuse me, all three now. And, and revoked security clearances, banned them from having meetings at the White House, basically trying to intimidate and trying to hurt their businesses so they can. Well, the big one.
- [14:40]
Sam Stein
Yeah, the big one is Perkins Coy. And that one, he said, if you're a government contractor and you hire Perkins Cooey, you're going to lose your contract. And of course, if you're a law firm and you can't represent government contractees, that's like a death sentence.
- [14:56]
Tim Miller
So that, that was insane behavior. And compare this to a. It's an attack on the free speech rights which me and David French got into on the pod. If you missed that, go listen to that. But it's just like, again, this government, like going after enemies and picking friends in the private sector. It's just completely anathema to the way that we do business here in America or should. Like they were having Tesla sales on the White House lawn. And meanwhile, we're targeting law firms that Trump thinks have been too mean to him. Right. It's just, it's, it's, again, if you.
- [15:27]
Sam Stein
Like Trump, you get his, you get his business, and if you don't, you get his ire.
- [15:30]
Tim Miller
It's crazy authoritarian behavior. So you might think that Lindsey Graham might have some issues with that. Okay, maybe not. Let's watch Lindsey.
- [15:37]
Lindsey Graham
Orders from the president this week targeting some of the country's most prominent law firms, including Paul Weiss. He wants to restrict business activities of the firm, despite a federal judge ruling in a different case that it's unconstitutional. The president suspended security clearances at the firm. He stripped clearances from lawyers over at Covington and Burlington as well because they were involved in representing former special counsel Jack Smith. Do you support this?
- [16:08]
David French
Yeah, I think all of These things. I think Jack Smith was politically motivated. I think the Russian hoax. A lot of people should have gone to jail, and they didn't. I think the idea that President Trump was an agent of Russia was manufactured. The Steele dossier was based on lies and false falsehoods coming from a source that said he never meant it to be used in the fashion it was used. I think Jack Smith's effort to prosecute President Trump for January 6th was politically motivated. And people who engage in trying to destroy President Trump, I don't mind him going after them in a lawful way. I don't mind. Is this lawful?
- [16:44]
Lindsey Graham
Is this good for the US Legal system, Senator? Because the president's trying to use government power to punish private business because he didn't like some of the work they had been doing.
- [16:56]
David French
Private business aided government power in a fashion to destroy Donald Trump's life. You know, on our side, nobody in your world gets it, but our people believe that the Justice Department was used as a weapon to destroy Trump's campaign and his business interests and to ruin his family. That they made up bogus charges and they pursued, proceeded in a fashion that was designed to destroy him politically and personally. I believe that if these people involved pay a price, they got nobody but themselves to blame.
- [17:29]
Tim Miller
That's the.
- [17:29]
Lindsey Graham
But these are lawyers working on cases that. You're making it sound like the work that they take on is somehow part of a conspiracy and they should be punished for it.
- [17:41]
David French
Yeah, I think. I think these law firms were pushing legal theories that, to me, were designed for political outcomes more than legal outcomes. You know, we can have a debate about, you know, holding a lawyer accountable for his client's actions. I genuinely don't like that. But these. But these law firms.
- [18:03]
Lindsey Graham
That's what this sounds like.
- [18:04]
David French
Jack Smith, using the power of government, incorporating these law firms, in my view, were trying to disrupt and take down the Republican nominee for president. That this was an orchestrated effort and Biden only regretted they didn't do it sooner. So it was politically motivated and everybody with their fingerprints on it. I hope they pay a price.
- [18:30]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I mean, like, look, it's just. What is there to say? Again, I wonder if he really believes this shit, because I hope he doesn't. The idea that a lawyer would be held responsible for their client and then be punished for it is totally at odds with how we've conducted our business and should. Honestly, everyone deserves representation. He. Lindsay's point is. Well, these were political cases, but, yeah, I mean, that's also part of the law. And you have to accommodate that. And just as there are firms that represented those clients, Jones Day, other firms, Sullivan, Cromwell, they represented Trump. Would Lindsey be okay if in the next Democratic administration, those firms suddenly were kicked to the side and got no business and were shuttered because contractors were forbidden from working for them? It's crazy and it's statism. And look, I, I happen to know, like, people in the, in the business in dc, in these law firms, and it is like they're freaked out. They are legitimately freaked out. They're wondering if they should help. I mean, obviously Perkins Coy wants a big show of solidarity, but there are lawyers in town who are just like, if we do that, if we go and represent Perkins Cuy, if we show solidarity, going to come after us. Now, Williams and Con of the big firm did take the case. They did get a big ruling in their favor. But then Trump then responded by going after another firm, Paul Weiss. So we're in a really bad place. Like, this is a really bad place. These firms. I don't want to pity Big Law.
- [19:58]
Tim Miller
You know, like, I talked about this today in French. You know, it's like, okay, sure, the, the big law, the, the rich lawyer in D.C. is not a sympathetic case, but if you're a whistleblower in this next Trump administration, are you a regular person or you're somebody that the government is targeting. Right. Right now. Right. Just a regular person. And you need to get, you need to hire lawyers that have expertise in this.
- [20:23]
Sam Stein
Yeah.
- [20:23]
Tim Miller
And there's a chilling effect. Like a. You can't hire these firms because they might. Because the government won't work with them. And then the other firms might.
- [20:32]
Sam Stein
Or Trump firms.
- [20:33]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Or they're either Trump firms or they might be scared to hire you because they don't want to look at it.
- [20:38]
Sam Stein
They'll get targeted. No, it's crazy. And look, I think the through line here is just everything is run on retribution. Like, that is all he cares about is retribution. Even this. Like, you know, going after DC's budget in this, in this bill, though, hopefully it gets reversed. But, like, all he cares about is just going after what is, who his perceived enemies are. There's no, there's no pretense to it. That's it. And so it's, it's the through line through all of this stuff. And I, I watched the Sunday shows this morning. I looked for instances of Republicans speaking up, and I found none. No one seemed to have any bother over any of these things.
- [21:13]
Tim Miller
Yeah, the one quote from the Lindsey Graham bet that I Just want to just drill in on really quick is people who engaged in trying to destroy President Trump. I don't mind him going after them in a lawful way. In a lawful way, yeah. But even still, is that right? I mean, we want, like, it's hard to think of a precedent for this, like, when it's. When you're talking about domestic, is there a precedent where it's like, somebody's like, I want the president to go after his domestic political enemies.
- [21:44]
Sam Stein
I want that.
- [21:45]
Tim Miller
Like, there have been certainly cases, obviously, going back to Nixon and. But even in every administration, w. Alberto Gonzalez, I'm sure there's some Democratic examples of this, of. Of. Of administrations targeting political foes over various things. But it's always like, we're gonna try to create a patina of a rationale for this. Right. You know what I mean? Like, we're not just doing this because of politics. Like, we're also doing this because we're this. Like, this is not. This is just like, No, I want. I want the President to use the power of the White House to go after his domestic.
- [22:19]
Sam Stein
And then he shows up and Trump shows up at the Justice Department and basically is like, yeah, I'm gonna go after them. Like they went after me. You're next. And it's just. We're in a bad place, man.
- [22:30]
Tim Miller
Bad stuff. Okay, thank you, Sam Stein. Happy.
- [22:32]
Sam Stein
Thank you, Tim Miller.
- [22:33]
Tim Miller
Everybody else will be back here tomorrow with Bill Crystal.
- [22:35]
Sam Stein
Subscribe to the feed.
- [22:36]
Tim Miller
Subscribe to the feed. Maybe something will happen in the meantime, and I'll see you then. Otherwise, we'll see with Bill Crystal tomorrow.
- [22:40]
Lindsey Graham
Peace.