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- [00:00]
Tim O'Brien
Hey, everybody, Tim O from the Bulwark here. I kept hearing about this guy on TikTok, Hawk from TikTok. If you're like me and you know you only use TikTok for your niche interests like indie rock and gay gossip, you might not know about some of these political commentators that have huge followings on TikTok. And I wasn't familiar with Hawk until I had, like, cousins and random people in my life messaging me saying, Hawk from TikTok talked about you. And like, that is the media world these days. A lot of people are getting their information not even from independent media outlets, but from individuals who comment on the news and have devoted followings. And so for anyone on the pro democracy side of this, it is critical to engage in this stuff. And it's great that there are people out there like Hawk who are their own voice, reaching people and connecting people in a way that the mainstream outlets and a lot of Democratic politicians have been unable to. And so I was super pumped to get to go do a live TikTok with him. We taped it on Friday, kind of in the spirit of the discourse. It was super casual. I gave a lot of my thoughts on Epstein, did a little bit of recap of the Oasis concert. We talked about social media and the Chinese and the Democrats and a bunch of conspiracy theories, a lot of conspiracy theory talk. And it was a nice chat. It was casual. We're BS and I show you a little. Give people a little tour of the studio here. So. So if you're interested in that, stick around, subscribe to this feed regardless, because we're trying to give everybody a fresh, independent, straight, no bullshit view on what's happening out there in this crazy world. So subscribe to this feed, stick around for me and Hawk, and if you like what you see and you're on TikTok, go follow Hawk and the Bulwark on TikTok.
- [01:45]
Hawk
You got to turn your camera on, Tim.
- [01:48]
Tim O'Brien
My camera's on. What's up? What's the deal? Where it is? There we go. Here we go. We got what we're doing. We know what we're doing. This isn't a shit show. We're trained how it was meant to be. What's up, man?
- [02:00]
Hawk
Good. I'm good, man.
- [02:01]
Tim O'Brien
How you doing? You dressed up for me? You put on a collared shirt and everything?
- [02:05]
Hawk
Yeah, you know, I'm nervous. What do you want?
- [02:10]
Tim O'Brien
Well, you're nervous. You've got like eighty hundred billion followers on here. You're speaking to, like, most of Shanghai as best As I can tell, that's true. So I wouldn't. I wouldn't be too worried about it. I'm see the studio. Should we do back behind the scenes? This is not fake studio. This is. Yeah, that's where the flamingo is. We used to replace the flamingo with the pinto beans bag.
- [02:31]
Hawk
Nice.
- [02:32]
Tim O'Brien
Serious, serious fun with the pinto. Pinto bean bag was such a staple then back here. Oh, yes. It doesn't look as cool back there, but, you know, this is how we're doing it. This was. This was my favorite piece by Slate ever. They wrote about how, oh, you can't see it, it's backwards. But they wrote about somebody asked her advice because their son was spending too much time reading the Bulwark, you know, and now we're back here behind the lights, you know, we got it. My grandpa was on the St. Louis Billikens Championship team. There you go.
- [03:00]
Hawk
Nice.
- [03:01]
Tim O'Brien
This is where the magic happens.
- [03:03]
Hawk
That's outstanding.
- [03:05]
Tim O'Brien
What do we think? Do you see that? We're going to pardon Jelaine. Jelane wants to be pardoned. Ghislaine Maxwell, her lawyer is officially requested a pardon. Just. Just right before we popped on and, And, And Trump this morning. I'm sure you saw that Trump this morning said he. He can do it if he wants. He just has about it yet. This is pretty. I mean, this is insane, man.
- [03:30]
Hawk
It's such mob boss telegraphing and phrasing it that way. I can do it if I want to. I haven't thought about it yet, but if I want to, I can.
- [03:38]
Tim O'Brien
We'll see.
- [03:39]
Hawk
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
- [03:41]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah, man. I don't know. It's. I mean, I think that like their playbook. He's never subtle, right? It's just so obvious. Like they got two days meeting with her, Todd, Blanche and the whole thing. I talked to Andrew Wiseman about it for the pod today. She'll be out here any minute, but.
- [03:53]
Hawk
Oh, good.
- [03:54]
Tim O'Brien
So people can go check that out after we hang. And. But he's like, it's crazy. The deputy attorney general doing this meeting with a convict personally. And then. And then the lawyer and Todd Blanch and Max's lawyers are like buddies. Like he's been podcasting with them. You know, it'd be like you and me went and did this together. Like, they're like pals. Like multiple podcasts. And so two days of meetings and then they're like, we want to pardon. Like what? Like, it's so obvious. Like she's going to, you know, be like, oh, it was really Bill Clinton, and who probably was Bill Clinton, by the way, and Prince Andrew. And she'll point her finger at anybody that Trump doesn't like, and that's going to be there. And in exchange, she's going to get some kind of commutation. I mean, that's at least the plan. We'll see if they can execute. It is wild that they think they can get away with it.
- [04:45]
Hawk
It's so wildly unethical on the part of Todd Blanche because he was Donald Trump's former criminal defense attorney. He was lead counsel in Donald Trump's criminal. Criminal case in Manhattan last year that resulted in him getting 34 felony convictions. And now he's number two at the DOJ and he's meeting with someone alone who could implicate Trump. Yeah, there's nobody else from the DOJ who's sitting in on these meetings. It is Todd Blanche. It is Ghislaine Maxwell and her attorney, and that's it. And I guarantee you they're not being recorded.
- [05:21]
Tim O'Brien
And she got. Do you see the little box she got? A little gift that she offered to bring back to prison. Did you catch that? Drudge is on that. You know, Drudge is kind of like the Tim of this sort of thing. I don't know. Were you ever a Drudge band? You were always a lib, right, Hawk? Were you a hit lib from day one? Look at that haircut. You were obviously a lib from day one.
- [05:39]
Hawk
Yeah, I mean, I used to read Dredge every now and then just for entertainment.
- [05:46]
Tim O'Brien
Dredge has gone to full. Has a full thing, and I always like to check him out before the pod because he's mysterious. We don't even know where he is these days, but him and whoever is doing this page has a good nose for news and sometimes they see shit I don't see. But there's this little picture here. I'm looking at my computer instead of my phone, and there's a little picture of her walking into the prison with. With like a little. A little box, A little mystery box. What could that have been? I wonder.
- [06:15]
Hawk
I mean, I wonder if it's that book of birthday cards. Did you see the one from Clinton? From Bill Clinton?
- [06:24]
Tim O'Brien
I saw that he wrote one, but I haven't actually read it yet. What did it say he wrote?
- [06:29]
Hawk
It included some unfortunate wording. In hindsight, he praised Jeffrey Epstein's childlike curiosity.
- [06:43]
Tim O'Brien
Yikes.
- [06:44]
Hawk
Yeah.
- [06:46]
Tim O'Brien
Yikes.
- [06:47]
Hawk
I mean, this is like.
- [06:49]
Tim O'Brien
Here's a question I have for you, Hawk, that you could. Maybe you're better suited than this maybe, than me, because I'm like. My sense is that, like, the Dems, like regular Democrats and people don't give a rip if Bill Clinton ends up being collateral damage in this thing.
- [07:06]
Hawk
No, not at all.
- [07:07]
Tim O'Brien
Do you. Would that bug you? Do you have any sort of, like, old allegiance to him? I don't know. Do you have any, like, Clinton memorabilia around the house or anything?
- [07:16]
Hawk
I mean, just. Just the hats and the flags and the shorts and the socks and the T shirts and, you know, the wrap on my motor vehicle. No, I. It's just whoever. Whoever's guilty, I can lock them up.
- [07:34]
Tim O'Brien
Dirty and I don't know. What do you, like? I think that's going to be the standard view. Right. Right. Among them.
- [07:41]
Hawk
For normal people. Yeah, for normal people. Yeah. I mean, I've been getting comments on my videos all week from MAGA chuds that are like, bill Clinton's on the list. Checkmate libs. And I'm just like, we don't. We don't give a shit. We don't care. We really do not care. Lock him up.
- [08:02]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah. Do you. I mean, why do you think we got banned and you didn't? Was it. If you're doing. If you're doing Epstein talk? Do you think it was the Chinese worried about Epstein talk? What's. What's happening over here on Tick Tock?
- [08:16]
Hawk
Well, two things. One, I hate that the last decade has made me as prone to conspiracy thinking as it has.
- [08:25]
Tim O'Brien
Okay?
- [08:27]
Hawk
But I looked, and it's like, you guys, your page got banned for misinformation.
- [08:32]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah.
- [08:33]
Hawk
Which I'm like, huh, Ludicrous. I mean, I think I texted you that their moderation at TikTok is all AI and it's a mess. It's just a total mess. It's unruly, it's unpredictable, it's arbitrary, and it's just a complete mess.
- [08:51]
Tim O'Brien
It's actually useful that you're prone to conspiratorial thinking. I was discussing this with JVL and Sarah this week that, like, we need more left conspiracists. This is the problem. A lot of the left conspiracists, like, went with RF and Tulsi over to maga. And there's value in conspiracy thinking because every once in a while, it's right. And also because it, like, you know, people, there's a reason why they put National Enquirer at the front at the grocery store, you know, up on the front rack and not the Atlantic. You know, that's just how you the masses are attracted to that. Look at those glass shades. That's cool. Do you like, do you have any hot conspiracies that you're on right now?
- [09:34]
Hawk
I mean, there are so many with Epstein about what's going on. Like, first of all, it's like, I mean, if you just look at the timeline of this year, it's not so much conspiracy. It's like in February, Pam Bondi hands out those binders to the MAGA chuds at the White House. And then right after that, she's like, I have the Epstein client list on my desk. And then the next month in March is when somebody ordered 1,000 FBI personnel to scour the entire Epstein file 24 7. And then in May, according to the Wall Street Journal, Pam Bondi and Todd Blanch go tell Trump in the Oval Office. Yeah, your name is all through this thing.
- [10:20]
Tim O'Brien
Then Elon tweets that he's in there.
- [10:22]
Hawk
Yeah. And so it's like all the Elon stuff, I'm like, wow, how much, how much access to information did he really have?
- [10:33]
Tim O'Brien
Okay, so there's your conspiracy thinking. I think Elon was inside, in. In the.
- [10:37]
Hawk
Because he's just going in and copying all these hard drives and networks. And so who knows, maybe he's got a complete copy of the Epstein file that he'll roll out if. If Trump tries to cancel his SpaceX contracts.
- [10:52]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah, that's an interesting conspiracy. The Kara. I never really bought the Kara Swisher. You can call it conspiracy, whatever theory that Elon just wanted to go in there and get as much data as he could for Grok. Like, it was like an AI, you know, content grab. And like, who has more data than the federal government? I don't know. I always thought Elon was kind of. I think Elon got like, literally red pilled and went crazy. I think he was kind of earnest in his crazy views more than this. It was like a grand strategy. But, like, he did have all those little nerds in all the corners of the government and they definitely, they definitely exfilled some shit out of there.
- [11:29]
Hawk
Yeah, I mean, I, I look at Elon as, you know, kind of childlike and loves drugs and he's smart, but I think his level of malevolence has developed over the years. Especially, you know, he did not get a good reception when he entered the political arena last year. And that's, that's borne out from, you know, the stock price and the international sales figures for Tesla, which I think that brand is done.
- [12:02]
Tim O'Brien
I mean, you don't Think it's rebounding.
- [12:04]
Hawk
Begin to rehab, something like that.
- [12:07]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I feel like my friends that have Teslas, my, like, non political friends are feeling a little less embarrassed about it now. So, yeah, it can be a slow recovery. And I think his bigger threat is, like, Chinese are fucking running circles around him right now.
- [12:23]
Hawk
So I'll tell you my least favorite conspiracy theory on the left, all right, and it'll probably light up the comments section, okay? The blue MAGA election deniers from 2024.
- [12:34]
Tim O'Brien
Thank you for bringing this up. Can I rant about this to the people in the comments? Here's the thing. Like, a. Just the principle is a matter of, like, do you really want to be like them? Do you really want to be like these stupid red hat people that are storming the Capitol and being like, there's the Chinese and the Italians, satellites. So. So just before I even get to the facts, just, like, have some dignity, all right? Like, we're trying to have a little. Yeah, but here's the thing about the facts on this is, you know, people send me these links all the time. I'm like, what? Like, you don't have to do deep data research. These swing states were closer than all the other states. Kamala did the worst in the states that didn't matter. Like, where you wouldn't bother to rig the election because you don't. Who cares what is happening in New York? People send me, like, what about this precinct, York? And I'm like, nobody was monkeying with the numbers in New York. Nobody cares. Convoy's gonna win New York. The states that she did the best in were Wisconsin. I mean, she didn't win, obviously, but were Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, you know, Michigan. She. She only lost, like, basically, what, two, three points from where Biden had been in 20. In those states, you know, in, like, New Jersey, she lost, like, 18 points. So. So it doesn't make any sense that they would rig the election. Like, why would it be closer in the swing states than it was in the blue and red states, right? Like, if the truth was, like, if it was a rig. Let's just game theory this. If it was a rig, you'd figure they would go try to rig it in the swing states where the Republicans had a governor, you know, so luckily that wasn't too many of them, but Georgia, for example, and you would see Kamala do very well, say, in, like, Alabama and South Carolina, but then do, like, suspiciously poorly in Georgia, right? Like, that is what you would see if there was. If There was monkey business. So anyway, that one isn't true. I'm sorry, guys. I know that people want to believe it, but I also just think it's important. It's not enjoyable, that it's important for us to just accept that the people wanted this. Because you cannot learn anything.
- [14:48]
Hawk
Yes.
- [14:49]
Tim O'Brien
You can't learn anything for the future. You cannot, you cannot be clear eyed about the state of the country if you're in denial about what happened.
- [14:59]
Hawk
So I think, I think that's a really, really good point. And I say that frequently. I'm like, you guys need to just accept the fact that this is what the electorate voted for, period. I mean, if you look at what we knew about him before the 2016 election versus what we knew about him from his four years out of office before the 2024 election, it couldn't be a worse picture. It just couldn't. I mean, multiple felonies, insurrection, tried to overturn the election, owes the state of New York $600 million for fraud. On and on and on and on.
- [15:35]
Tim O'Brien
The unclassified documents.
- [15:39]
Hawk
In the electorate was like, no, he's a good businessman. I want that. He's gonna get rid of brown people.
- [15:49]
Tim O'Brien
I love people in the comments like, I disagree. I respectfully disagree. I respectfully disagree with you as well. But like, Democrats run Michigan. How did, how did they sneak it under and have it under Gretchen Whitmer's nose and Josh Shapiro's nose? Right. How did the Republicans. How did the Republicans rig it in Pennsylvania when Democrats run Pennsylvania anyway? Okay, I'm not gonna stop.
- [16:10]
Hawk
Yeah. I mean, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Democratic governors, Democratic lieutenant governors, Democratic attorney generals, Democratic secretaries of state. But Elon came in with his satellites and got it done.
- [16:25]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah, dude, Elon is tweeting and trying to cheat at video games. That's what he was doing. Elon was trying to get up his score in that video game so that it's a. He. Elon rigged one thing last year. It was the rankings on a video game. Okay. That's what he was.
- [16:40]
Hawk
I forgot about that.
- [16:41]
Tim O'Brien
That's what he was focused on.
- [16:45]
Hawk
Oh, man. I gave. I gave up video games like 20 years ago. My game was Gran Turismo. It was a racing game.
- [16:56]
Tim O'Brien
Oh, yeah. Okay. I played a little of that.
- [16:58]
Hawk
Yeah, that was. And it's just like I could sit down and play that game for like 10 hours. And then I was just like, I'm a grown up. This is bad. And so I stopped.
- [17:09]
Tim O'Brien
That's good. Yeah, I'm a sport gay. So it was like you know, Madden 2K for me, I never got into the rest of video game culture, which I. Which I appreciate. I waste enough time on other. What are you doing, Hawk? Tell me about this. I want to learn a bit about Hawks. Like when you're not tick tocking and, you know, Bulwark simping and like reading that. Like, what do you. What are you doing, like, in your free time? Like, what's Little Thursday looking for you?
- [17:37]
Hawk
Well, I mean, I still have a full time job. I'm working full time as a trial attorney. I've been doing that for about 26 years. On Thursday nights. Last night I posted a video from this on my TikTok page. On Thursday nights we have band practice. I've been in a band out here forever. I've been a drummer since I was 8 or 9 years old. And on the weekends, you know, I hang out with my brother.
- [18:08]
Tim O'Brien
What, what are, what are your favorite covers that you're doing for the band? With the band?
- [18:13]
Hawk
Oh, we're doing two right now.
- [18:15]
Tim O'Brien
Okay.
- [18:17]
Hawk
I mean, you gotta remember it's all guys that are my age.
- [18:20]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah, I'm not gonna judge.
- [18:23]
Hawk
And we're doing big country cover right now, which is actually a very complexly arranged song. It's been a pain in my ass lately. And then we were doing. We're doing an NXS song. I think it's called Don't Change. I'm terrible at song titles. Yeah. Okay.
- [18:46]
Tim O'Brien
It's an NXS song that's like, what, 80s? NXS is 80s. What do you think about my Bulwark podcast Outros? Do you listen to it on the audio? So you get my outros or do you get it on YouTube where you don't get.
- [18:57]
Hawk
Yeah, well, I hear new stuff that I've never heard before, so I appreciate that. I appreciate the curated outros very much.
- [19:08]
Tim O'Brien
I was really proud of the Frank Ocean one this week, which was about. Which I did not get enough feedback on. And I was like. I felt like it was like my Mona Lisa and, you know, we got a little Hunter Biden chat and then we just went out straight into a Frank Ocean song. It was like, about Hunter Biden's life and, you know, nobody. I got a little bit of feedback, but I work, I spend about as much. That's how. That's my. This is my escape. I spent about as much time as choosing the song for the episode as I do on the actual episode, you know, because you got to have an outlet that's not Donald Trump, you know.
- [19:44]
Hawk
I Mean, do you have any free time?
- [19:47]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah, I do. I noticed a couple people in the comments say you look tired. And I do appreciate that feedback. I do. I love getting told I look tired. And I. I am tired.
- [19:58]
Hawk
Yeah, it's been a rough year.
- [20:00]
Tim O'Brien
I just don't. Yeah, it's right there. I just don't. I'm just not. Like, I. I do take every day. I did it already today. I take a 10 minute cat nap, 10 minutes for energy, and then I'm not sleeping that much at night. And I'm just like, Janet. Like, I'm just always doing stuff. Like, there's just not a lot of time to do nothing. You know what I mean? So, like, we're either doing YouTubes, doing videos, doing interviews, preparing for them, or I'm parenting, you know, taking my daughter to the basketball court. Luckily, my husband's doing a lot of the boring parts of parenting right now, so thank you. Big shout out to my husband. But I'm, you know, I'm like taking her to the basketball court, going for a bike ride or something, or I'm out with my buddies drinking and going to a show. So that's.
- [20:40]
Hawk
There you go.
- [20:41]
Tim O'Brien
All three of those things. I would probably look less tired if I cut out the drinking. And it would probably be more healthy for me to, like, spend that time reading history or something. And I did, I did used to read a lot more. I'm like, I read a lot on my vacation two weeks ago because I love reading. But, like, reading is kind of what is hitting the cutting room floor right now for me because I'm doing so much news and hanging out with my buddies and parenting.
- [21:05]
Hawk
Well, as far as the drinking with your buddies, thank God for Zebiotics.
- [21:11]
Tim O'Brien
Thank God for ZBiotics. Yeah. What a great sponsor. We can't get many freebies here on this one, Hawk. You got to make sure you're getting paid. Someone suggested the comments that I do the full booted judge and drew a beard. I tried to do that. So I did not shave in Europe. So I went to. I went to Madrid and then Amsterdam and then ISIS in Manchester for my vacation.
- [21:30]
Hawk
Yeah.
- [21:31]
Tim O'Brien
Which is unbelievable. And.
- [21:34]
Hawk
Yeah.
- [21:35]
Tim O'Brien
And I didn't shave the whole time. And I came back and I was like, maybe I'll have a beard. You know, now that I'm in my 40s, maybe I can grow a beard. Like, grown up now. Nope. I'd like huge holes.
- [21:45]
Hawk
I get that. Yeah. Dude. I'm 57. I've never been able to grow a beard. And I'VE never been one. I've never been one to be like, maybe I'll just grow a mustache.
- [21:55]
Tim O'Brien
You look good with a beard, I think. Too bad.
- [21:59]
Hawk
Yeah. Because the just mustache thing will never not be creepy.
- [22:02]
Tim O'Brien
What about handlebar? Could you do it if it was handlebar? Handlebar.
- [22:06]
Hawk
I've never tried a handlebar. That might be an option.
- [22:11]
Tim O'Brien
All right. What else would you have? Any burning questions? Things you want? You want my take on, or you want to know about happening behind the scenes of the Bulwark?
- [22:20]
Hawk
I mean, it seems like you guys work a lot.
- [22:25]
Tim O'Brien
Thank you. Yeah, we do.
- [22:27]
Hawk
I mean, really? Yeah, I can't.
- [22:30]
Tim O'Brien
I can't.
- [22:31]
Hawk
I can't keep up with all the content you guys put out.
- [22:34]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah, we're getting some complaints about that from people, but I'm like, you know, like, you don't consume everything that ESPN puts out, too. You know, sometimes you just gotta pick and choose what shows you like and stuff, and that's cool. There's a lot happening, man. There's a lot in the news. Like, some stuff I think we don't get to that. I wish we could, like. I wish we had, like, better econ.
- [22:52]
Hawk
Yeah.
- [22:53]
Tim O'Brien
You know, and, like, we're working on that, and I wish that, you know, our legal stuff is pretty good, but I think that some other folks are doing a little better. But. So, I mean, you know, political politics, pure politics, is kind of our bread and butter. But, yeah, there's so much happening. I think it'd be a different. Different. I could combo one right at Kamala one. I had, like, all these thoughts, you know, I was like, we're gonna do a book club. You know, I'm gonna do a life advice day. You know what I mean? Because it's gonna be boring. Right? Like. Like, we'll do. I'm gonna do a day of the podcast where we go deep history. That's just.
- [23:26]
Hawk
Can you even imagine. Could you even imagine what right wing media would be if Kamala had won? It would be hair on fire every single day, man.
- [23:35]
Tim O'Brien
And that's what we would really be doing. So just making you up. Did you get to watch the South Parks? This is another thing that, like, my watching is behind. I don't. I'm not consuming as much time. I've seen clips. Me and Sonny did a video on it. He watched the whole thing. But have you, like, watched it all?
- [23:50]
Hawk
I haven't watched it all. I've seen some clips from it. And I mean, the one clip where he walks in on the painting.
- [23:55]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah.
- [23:56]
Hawk
And Then he goes to bed with Satan. I was just like, oh my God, man. I mean, I've been watching those guys since their first season. You know, kind of ebbs and ebbs and flows.
- [24:08]
Tim O'Brien
But I like that they took the shot at 60 minutes. I like that they went at 60 minutes here. They didn't just go at Trump, which is like, you know, their colleagues essentially. Like, I thought that was pretty. And it's interesting. My buddies over at Puck who do kind of like insidery, you know, media reporting, right. About as good as anybody there. They just had an article came out. I just read before we popped on that, like the south park episode went to the top of CBS and they were like having discussions about whether to kill it. Yeah, they hadn't got the merger through yet and it just got through.
- [24:39]
Hawk
Well, the, the two guys, Matt Stone and Trey Parker, I think I got those names right. They were at Comic Con yesterday and they said, yeah, we had like a four day fight with Legal about airing that episode. They wanted to blur his tiny penis. And we said, no, you're not going to do that.
- [25:00]
Tim O'Brien
What the fuck story said was they put the two eyes on the pe to make it a character. They were like, oh, they're like fine now. Now it's a character so we don't have to blur it because it is not a sex object. It is a penis, man. So that is why they googly eyes on the penis there.
- [25:19]
Hawk
Well, that's, I mean, which, which that's, that's like the one episode of south park that you can no longer see anywhere. The episode they did where they made Muhammad a character.
- [25:32]
Tim O'Brien
Right?
- [25:34]
Hawk
Yeah.
- [25:34]
Tim O'Brien
Is that still not put that back on?
- [25:38]
Hawk
I don't know. I don't know if that ever came back.
- [25:42]
Tim O'Brien
But what other stuff? Go ahead.
- [25:44]
Hawk
Well, one thing I wanted to ask you. I heard you say that you watched that Netflix documentary on Jeffrey Epstein last weekend.
- [25:54]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah. Have you watched it?
- [25:55]
Hawk
Yeah, I rewatched it again like a couple weeks ago. I think I watched it again the week before you did.
- [26:01]
Tim O'Brien
This is when I was talking about not sleeping because it's like watching that and I watched it till like three in the morning. I binged it for five hours.
- [26:09]
Hawk
Watching that now in this context is a wildly different experience than when it first came out.
- [26:15]
Tim O'Brien
Well, the thing that you come, the main thing I come away with watching it isn't actually related. Well, it's related to Trump. That's related to the COVID up, but it isn't related to Trump himself. His behavior was like, they're obviously are other co conspirators and they're, you know, you cannot say we reviewed all the documents. Maybe you could say we reviewed all the documents. There were other people that behaved badly that were involved in the conspiracy, but statute of limitations ran out or whatever. We don't feel like we could prosecute them. Sure, maybe. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not a lawyer. Andrew Weisman could talk to you about that. But like their promise wasn't to prosecute people, it was to release the information so people could know who was involved. And there were obviously, obviously many, many other people involved. Yeah. And so to me, that was like one thing that was, that really stood out. Another thing was their interview with the guy that was like the maintenance man on the island was really eye opening because he's talking about how many people had to know. Like that's the depressing part about all this. Like, he's like, they would land because I was under the impression that the plane landed on his personal island. Not true. It landed on the US Virgin Islands and they took a boat. So they get off the plane and it would be like Epstein, Prince Andrew and like three 17 year old girls. And it's like, what? And so it's like everyone knew the, you know, the, the head of whatever the US Virgin Islands, whatever the political figures are there, you know, the local, the people at that airport. So that was like another thing that was really eye opening and then the last thing. And I think I mentioned this on a pod this week, but it's important because I hope I'm getting her right name right. I think it was Maria Farmer. There are those two girls that were, that are very important in the documentary because.
- [28:00]
Hawk
And they were at like the very beginning.
- [28:02]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah, because of his activities.
- [28:06]
Hawk
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:07]
Tim O'Brien
And. And so they're underage at the time. So again, sometimes people, like I get feedback from people that are like, you're saying young women and girls interchangeably. And I'm like, well, because it's both like they, they trafficked girls and molested girls, but they also assaulted and abused adult women. Young adult. Yeah. Anyway, in this case they were girls. They were under 18 and it was her and her sister and they brought them to Ohio. So it's an interstate trafficking thing. And this is important because when Epstein gets caught, right, he gets caught by the local police in Palm beach, you know, because people are like, what is up with this house where all these girls are going into the house all the time? So he gets caught by the local police and Then there's a cover up in Florida, like, where the Florida officials try to protect him. Epstein. And so the local sheriff, who's like the hero of the story, really, in Palm beach, gets no credit, right? He calls the FBI and he's like, they're trying to kill this thing. And he's like, you guys should look into it. Maybe there's a federal story. And when he calls the FBI, they look up Jeffrey Epstein. They're like, oh, shit. We have a report about him in 1996 from this girl, Maria Farmer. This makes it a federal case because now we have accusations in Florida and Ohio and New York, because they were traveling. And that is all important. It's worth explaining all that because she also mentions Donald Trump in that same report to the FBI in 1996. Now, she doesn't say he abused her, but Epstein brings her to Trump Tower, and he says to Trump, this one isn't for you. And so she mentions that to the FBI. It's like, you should also look into Trump because the way he said that made it seem like there are other.
- [29:48]
Hawk
Girls that are for him.
- [29:49]
Tim O'Brien
Him, you know? Right. And so to me, it's like, that is like, such a key part of. Of, like, why, why I'm so glad I watched the documentary. But also in this story of, like, what's in the files about Trump? Well, it's like, we know that there were FBI files that mentioned him dating back to 96. Like, you know, that's a long time. So anyway. Yeah. What? Was there anything in the documentary that jumped out to you?
- [30:16]
Hawk
Yeah, I had not before I saw that documentary, I didn't have any sense of the connection between Jeffrey Epstein and Les Wexner.
- [30:26]
Tim O'Brien
Oh, yeah.
- [30:27]
Hawk
And when the first time that I watched that documentary, I graduated from high school in 1986 in New Albany, Ohio. I lived about two miles from where Jeffrey Epstein got started doing all of this. Oh, yeah. But when I. When I grew up there, it was all just hillbillies and cornfields and then Wexner.
- [30:52]
Tim O'Brien
So why did Wexner live there? That's what I didn't understand. Why does this rich, like, this rich man have a place in the middle of Ohio?
- [30:58]
Hawk
He had this grand vision of building an entire community with these, like, Georgian mansions with wings on them and like that. And so he came in and started doing that and just started buying up huge parcels of land because it was rural. I mean, it was farms out there. And learning that the person in his organization who was handling all of those transactions was Jeffrey Epstein, which is like, holy shit balls, man. And I don't know if it's in the documentary, but I read that there was one occasion where Maria Farmer got out of the house and called the sheriff and went up to the front gate, the New Albany sheriff, and they, like, shoved her back in the gate. And we're like, nothing to see here. Unless Wexner's wife came out and grabbed her and took her back to the house. Yeah.
- [31:55]
Tim O'Brien
Again, like, there are obviously these other co. Conspirators, and that's the Wexner thing, is the money. Like, that's the other thing with that Epstein thing. It's like. Like, where did his money come from? It was just odd. Did Les Wexler just give it to him? He creates this mansion in Ohio that's right next to Les's. It's the second biggest house in Ohio, and he had the biggest house in New York and is an island, and he has a plane. I never. He didn't work.
- [32:21]
Hawk
I've. I've. So Les Wessner gave Jeffrey Epstein power of attorney over his finances? Yes, I have. I have never gotten what I would consider to be a reasonable explanation as to why. Because even if it's like, some kind of blackmail or something, because there have been allegations about Les Wexner being gay for decades.
- [32:41]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah. People joke that Epstein was his boyfriend or whatever.
- [32:45]
Hawk
Yeah. But it's like, even if it's blackmail, that seems excessive to be a multi billionaire with a massive organization of companies, and you sign over power of attorney for your finances to this guy who up to that point, you know, he didn't have a college degree. He was a math teacher for, like, one year. It's just like, I've never gotten a good explanation for that kind of origin story on the money.
- [33:12]
Tim O'Brien
And there's a good thing, except I guess that he was doing the Young girls, too. I've been like, even still, it's like, okay. I mean, I don't. I guess you don't want it to get out that badly. But other people around Wexner thought it was really crazy. Like, he would introduce Epstein and be like, treat him like he's family. And it's like, why? Yeah, I don't know, man.
- [33:32]
Hawk
But then I also saw, you know, speaking of Florida and that investigation, I also saw an interview this week with author Michael Wolf. I have very mixed feelings about him, but he. But, I mean, the dude managed to get a hundred hours of recorded interviews with Jeffrey Epstein. Nobody else has gotten that done. And he said that Epstein told him that Epstein thought that Trump was the one who put the Palm beach police on his tail in 2005 because they had some falling out over a real estate deal in 2004. And Epstein always thought that Trump was the one who put Palm Beach PD on his tail the next year in 05.
- [34:20]
Tim O'Brien
I think that, I mean maybe he thought that that gives A, Trump too much credit. And B, and if you just watch this documentary, it's like, like, no, bro.
- [34:28]
Hawk
Yeah.
- [34:28]
Tim O'Brien
What put the Palm beach cops on your tail was that it's a small little town and you kept bringing 17 year old girls to your house. Right. Like when you shower. Yeah. And younger and like 12, 14, I think. Well, I don't know about 12. Definitely 14. Maybe younger than 14. I forget. But if like they had one of those in that store they showed like in the Palm Beach Police Department, like they had like appearance. They created like on the wall like you see in cop movies, like Connections. And they made it of these girls. It's so sad. Like, it's like breaks your heart to even bring up. Right? Because it's like we met so and so Janie and then we're like, who did you introduce to Jeffrey? Then she'd say three girls and they go find them and they would say five more girls. And so it's like, yeah, man, you had a hundred whatever girls come by your house and like they talk. You know what I mean?
- [35:16]
Hawk
Yeah.
- [35:17]
Tim O'Brien
Like I don't think there was a conspiracy. I think that you got caught.
- [35:20]
Hawk
Right.
- [35:21]
Tim O'Brien
So I don't know, man.
- [35:22]
Hawk
But well, and it's like, I mean with what's going on with Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell, there were several young women in that video who were like, no, Ghislaine Maxwell was a perp. She was not a victim. She was a perp. She was willingly participating in this. And now it's like MAGA is trying to twist her into a victim so they can make a deal with her and be, and have it be acceptable.
- [35:46]
Tim O'Brien
She's. Yeah. And she organized all this. She's in the room sometimes when he's doing this to the girl. So she knows everything. She's telling the girls what he likes and stuff and she. I just. For what? I. I don't know. Somebody put a, put a what if this is Obama? I usually don't like the what if it was Obama thing, but it is, it is worry. It is just, it's, it's less about the debt and this is less about Democratic, Republican and more about like race. Like if you don't believe in racism and structural racism. Like, imagine if Obama was like on his third wife and there were, there were stories about him in between the wives, like sleeping with a 19 year old girl. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, even if ever, it's like, oh, Black man has three wives and is cheating on 19 year old girls, you know, in between marriages. And like the, the treatment, there's no, there's no plausible imaginary way where that person becomes the President of the United States. Like. Yeah, anyway, I mean, mamas.
- [36:51]
Hawk
You know, and I mean, it's like everything that this administration is doing is just so rooted in racism and bigotry and trying to restore, you know, a turbocharged version of, of patriarchy and, you know, I mean, I kind of joked in a video, you know, what the 14 words are.
- [37:12]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
- [37:14]
Hawk
I made kind of a joke that, you know, Stephen Miller has made the 14 words official policy of the United States government. Just adding on to the end. I mean, the 14 words are we must secure the existence of our people in a future for white children. He's just added on to the end. Unless they're sick or poor.
- [37:36]
Tim O'Brien
I mean. Yeah, or like, right makes. Right. The dhs. Did you see this? I don't. Maybe it was an accident, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. But they, they've been posting these, this like traditional art with like very weird comments about. It's crazy about how I'm trying to find the one. But they did one recently. Where is it that. Where there were 14 words. Yeah, here it is. It's a picture of this white angel with white settlers and then like Indians and like Native Americans and like traditional Indian garb. So it's about kind of white settlers taking over Indian land with a white with an angel standing over them. Okay. Yeah. And then the caption they put in there, a heritage to be proud of. A homeland worth defending American progress. John guest. So it's 14 words, but heritage and homeland are both capitalized, which is kind of weird. Someone pointed out maybe that's Heil Hitler defending is also capitalized. So maybe not. Oh, wow. I mean, it's just like.
- [38:44]
Hawk
But this is what I'm saying.
- [38:46]
Tim O'Brien
It is not subtle.
- [38:47]
Hawk
I read, yeah, I read something like that and I'm like, oh, it's 14 words. Oh, they capitalize both H's. It's just like my brain just goes to that now. Oh, God. This post is 1488. It's 1488.
- [39:04]
Tim O'Brien
I mean, it goes without because that's who these people are. I mean, that's what these.
- [39:08]
Hawk
Yeah, like dumb and racist.
- [39:11]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah. And I think about the type of person that is volunteering to be the Department of Homeland Security social media manager. I mean, like, we all watch the media, the Jubilee people. It's one of those kids. It's one of those kids. It's a 24 year old that's like, oh, yeah, I want to go be the shitposter on behalf of ICE and Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller. I mean, you know, again, ICE be Republican. I like capitalism. I think about the markets, think about the supply and demand here. Like, what is the. What. What are you drawing in? Who is. Who is the demand? Who's the pool of applicants going to be for that job? And it's going to be people that know about the 14 words. Let's just put it that way.
- [39:52]
Hawk
Yeah, no doubt. Absolutely. And probably have, you know, we the people tattooed on their forearm and shall not be infringed tattooed on one of their butt cheeks.
- [40:05]
Tim O'Brien
You got any tats?
- [40:08]
Hawk
I have, I have. I have one that I got on one of my ankles during a. During that. I got during the first summer that I spent in San Francisco almost exactly 30 years ago because, you know, I grew up in Ohio. So I came out here and I was like, I'm going to get a tattoo. And of course, it's a couple of little Chinese symbols.
- [40:29]
Tim O'Brien
Oh, that's cliche.
- [40:31]
Hawk
It's about as cliche as you get.
- [40:33]
Tim O'Brien
What do they say? Is it about earth? Trees?
- [40:37]
Hawk
You know, it's supposed to say honorable soul, but for all I know, it means, you know, soup. Who knows?
- [40:44]
Tim O'Brien
Honorable soul. That's nice, though. I used to make sentiment is good signaling. You know, I used to be anti virtue signaling for a while. Yeah, it's kind of like there's something to be said for virtue signaling because at least you're trying to exhibit virtue. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people take it too far and some people use it as a shield for bad behavior. I get that. But you know. Yeah, aspiring to be an honorable soul is a good thing. That's good. I'm scared of needle, so I don't have any. I don't have any ink, which is. It served me well back in my troublemaking days in college that I was scared of needles. So I'm just. I'm honoring that gear and not getting any tattoos.
- [41:26]
Hawk
Yeah. Okay. Full breakdown on the Oasis show in Manchester, their hometown.
- [41:32]
Tim O'Brien
I'll give you that. Then we'll do rapid fire I gotta go. I'm on Nicole Wallace in 13 minutes so people can jump TikTok to terrestrial cable. You know, there's this thing old people do.
- [41:41]
Hawk
We can save the Oasis thing for next time.
- [41:43]
Tim O'Brien
No, no, let's do it really fast. So they're from Manchester for. People don't. Yeah, they haven't played in 16 years, so we're in their hometown. Their first shows were in Scotland, and they're there this weekend. They're in London. So, like, Manchester is, like, a little hard to get to. And so there weren't. And it was a lot. It was very local, you know, like. Like, when I started speaking with my American accent, people, like, were excited. They're like, where'd you come from? I'm like, Louisiana. And people were like, we got gifts. Locals, like my girlfriend both got bucket hats as gifts from local Mancurians who were excited that we cameians who were excited that we came. And so anyway, everybody knew every word to every song, and they're, like, doing, you know, little by little stuff. Like, obviously, everybody knows Wonderwall, but, like, the Deep Cuts, all the people around us knew everywhere, every song. Everybody's hammered. Like, everybody is like, people. Strangers are hugging me. The guys sound great. The Bittersweet. What's that band? The Verve. It wasn't the Verve. It was Richard Ashcroft from the Verve opened. Yeah, I love him. Seems great. That's a great song. He sounds horrible. Like, his voice sounds horrible. My voice is going to sound horrible. You know, he sounds like. I don't know if Liam got vocal cord surgery or if he quit smoking or what's happening, if there's an AI solution or. Like, he sounds amazing. And it just. It sounded so good, the emotions, like, people crying. It was really, really cool to see it. And it was in this huge field. All their other shows are in stadiums, but they are Man City fans. The B list soccer team, Manchester. So the big stadium is Manchester United. They refused to play in the Manchester United stadium since they're Man City fans. And so they just played in this huge open field. It was really. It was really special. I mean, who's in my top three? Daft Punk at Red Rocks, LCD sound system at Madison Square Garden. And this, I think, are probably my three. My three. That's. That's my era.
- [43:37]
Hawk
That's awesome, man. I mean, how special to be able to see them in their hometown after they've been gone for 16 years. But, yeah, I did. I did hear a few people say that Liam quit smoking when they announced these gigs. Last year.
- [43:49]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah. So maybe that was it. He sounds amazing.
- [43:53]
Hawk
Seems wise. Yeah. I mean, because those guys are a couple years younger than me, man.
- [43:59]
Tim O'Brien
Yeah. Right.
- [44:00]
Hawk
Getting up there.
- [44:01]
Tim O'Brien
So we are. I'm getting out there. Commenters are telling me about it, how much I'm aging. That's. I don't know if you feel this way, being on Tick tock, being on YouTube every day. It's like I've watched myself age during the Trump years. You know, you just look at your videos from last year, and you're like, yeah, I was a baby. Yeah.
- [44:17]
Hawk
It's like, I check them and I'm like, I had, like, spots on my face now, like, what the hell, man?
- [44:24]
Tim O'Brien
I got.
- [44:25]
Hawk
I gotta get. I gotta get some of that one skin. Yeah.
- [44:29]
Tim O'Brien
Look at you supporting all our sponsors. Don't. Don't do it for free. You gotta get some of this stuff for yourself. All right. Hey, everybody. Dude, it was so great to meet you in Nashville. Thank you for coming. That's cool.
- [44:40]
Hawk
That was awesome.
- [44:40]
Tim O'Brien
It was so great to meet you. Thank you for coming. This is so fun. Let's do it again soon. I'm sorry to everybody that wanted it to be last week. Wasn't our fault. It was the Chinese AI fault. You know, it was probably getting bad information. I'm going to go do Nicole, and then we'll go. We'll hang out soon. All right, Brett, come on down to New Orleans.
- [44:57]
Hawk
This was definitely. This was awesome. I very much appreciate the invite, and good luck on Nicole.
- [45:03]
Tim O'Brien
All right, homie, we'll see you soon. Bye, everybody.
- [45:06]
Hawk
Bye, everybody. Thank you.