Tim and JVL Watch Mehdi Hasan Humiliate 20 Far-Right Clowns

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "Tim and JVL Watch Mehdi Hasan Humiliate 20 Far-Right Clowns"

Release Date: July 21, 2025
Host/Author: The Bulwark
Episode Title: Tim and JVL Watch Mehdi Hasan Humiliate 20 Far-Right Clowns
Description: Bulwark Takes delivers concise takes on daily news from The Bulwark team, including insights from Tim Miller, Sarah Longwell, Bill Kristol, and more.

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Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, hosts Tim Miller and Jonathan V. Last (JVL) delve into a provocative showdown where journalist Mehdi Hasan engages in a debate with 20 far-right conservatives at Jubilee's "Zateo." The episode dissects the interactions, highlighting the troubling ideologies and behaviors exhibited by the far-right participants. Through a series of video clips, Miller and JVL provide commentary, offering both humor and critical analysis of the current state of the MAGA youth movement.

Overview of Mehdi Hasan's Debate

The central focus of the episode is Mehdi Hasan's attempt to counterbalance a group of 20 far-right conservatives in a debate setting orchestrated by Jubilee. Hasan, framed as a progressive protagonist, faces off against opponents espousing various far-right ideologies. The debate structure involves Hasan presenting claims, which his adversaries then challenge.

Tim Miller introduces the debate format:

"[00:00] Tim Miller: ... it's Mehdi Hassan over at Zateo and he goes into the lion's den at Jubilee... one progressive versus 20 far right conservatives featuring Mehdi Hassan."

Key Clips and Discussion

Clip 1: Mehdi’s Stance on Trump and the Constitution

In this segment, a participant named Connor argues vehemently against former President Donald Trump, claiming Trump is "pro crime" and "defying the Constitution." The clip reveals a selective interpretation of constitutional amendments, favoring the Second Amendment while dismissing others.

Notable Quotes:

• Connor [02:42]: "Donald Trump is defying the Constitution. ... immigrants overall are good for America."
• Mandy [03:34]: "Donald Trump is defying the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the 14th Amendment."

Analysis: Miller and JVL critique Connor's hypocritical stance on constitutional amendments, noting his willingness to defend the Second Amendment while dismissing others he disagrees with.

"[04:01] Jonathan V. Last: ...he said, 'Autocracy.'"

Clip 2: Open Fascism and Support for Carl Schmitt

A particularly alarming moment occurs when Connor openly identifies as a fascist and downplays Nazi atrocities, sparking significant concern among the hosts.

Notable Quotes:

• Connor [08:08]: "I am a fascist."
• Mandy [08:37]: "But you don't condemn Nazi persecution of the Jews."
• Connor [08:35]: "Absolutely. I don't care."

Analysis: Miller expresses both horror and a fascination with Connor’s blatant fascism, highlighting the normalization of such extremist views among youth.

"[09:04] Mandy: I'm just checking who's clapping just to get my set of where everyone is on this because you know that millions of people are going to be watching you on YouTube and checking out who the fascists and the Nazis are."

Clip 3: Discussing Immigration and Citizenship Revocation

The debate touches on immigration, with participants advocating for stringent measures such as deportation and revocation of citizenship for those deemed undesirable.

Notable Quotes:

• Connor [14:55]: "There was a little bit of persecution."
• Mandy [18:07]: "Why do we have to bring in immigrants?"
• Connor [18:12]: "Because you come here and say all this about how Americans are lazy."

Analysis: The hosts discuss the precarious nature of advocating for revoking citizenship, noting its historical roots and potential for abuse.

"[19:36] Jonathan V. Last: ...you can create the populace we want by unpersoning and revoking the citizenship of the people we don't like and making them stateless."

Clip 4: Further Far-Right Extremism

Additional clips showcase the continued display of extremist beliefs, including racial theories and anti-immigrant sentiments, reinforcing the depth of far-right indoctrination among participants.

Notable Quotes:

• Unknown Participant [14:14]: "I am Native American. Whites are Native Americans."
• Mandy [26:17]: "This is a free speech debate cast. It's not your country, my friend. It's our country, whether you like it or not."

Analysis: Miller and JVL express disbelief and concern over the distorted historical and cultural narratives presented by the participants, emphasizing the dangerous conflation of nationalism with extremist ideology.

"[24:38] Tim Miller: There's not that much demographic change. ... it's all a cultural, I mean, I don't know, I don't think that like Germans in 1940 in America would have seen that wops were any different than the Mexicans, I don't think."

Analysis of Far-Right Mindset

The hosts analyze the attitudes and beliefs underpinning the far-right participants, noting a disturbing embrace of autocracy, selective adherence to constitutional principles, and a deep-seated animosity towards immigrants and marginalized groups.

Key Insights:

• Normalization of Extremism: The open identification with fascist ideologies suggests a troubling acceptance among youth.
• Selective Constitutionalism: Participants defend certain amendments while disregarding others that conflict with their beliefs.
• Impact of Leadership: The influence of figures like Donald Trump and Stephen Miller has shaped the young conservatives' worldview, embedding a "Great Man" narrative.

"[06:54] Jonathan V. Last: ...the Overton window has moved such an insane way that he could say that bluntly."

Demographic Changes and Political Shifts

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the United States' demographic evolution and its impact on political ideologies. The hosts debate whether demographic shifts are driving the rise of far-right extremism or if other factors are at play.

Key Points:

• Demographic Statistics: The shift from a predominantly white population to a more diverse society.
• Impact on Far-Right: Concerns that increasing diversity fuels fears among white nationalists, leading to extremist ideologies.
• Possible Remedies: The hosts struggle to identify effective countermeasures beyond demographic changes, emphasizing the difficulty in combating deeply ingrained beliefs.

"[23:42] Jonathan V. Last: ...here's the thing... we’re over the last 60 years... we’ve gone from being 85-80% white to about 50-60% white in the next 20 years."

Conclusion and Future Implications

Tim Miller and Jonathan V. Last conclude the episode by reflecting on the unsettling trends revealed through Mehdi Hasan's debate with the far-right participants. They express concern over the entrenched nature of extremist ideologies among the youth and the challenges in addressing such deeply rooted beliefs.

Final Thoughts:

• Generational Movement: The far-right extremism observed is seen as a generational issue, potentially persisting if not effectively countered.
• Need for Counter-Narratives: The hosts emphasize the importance of developing strategies to counteract the spread of fascist and nationalist ideologies.
• Hope for Change: Despite the bleak outlook, there is an underlying hope that societal and demographic trends may eventually mitigate these extremist views.

"[25:59] Tim Miller: ...what could help, do you think? ... All right, Producer Jared, I said that was last one. ... hope Maddie will come on. We can do a little bit more if you guys are obsessed with this as I am."

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Overall Summary: In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Miller and Jonathan V. Last critically examine Mehdi Hasan's debate with 20 far-right conservatives, uncovering alarming trends in modern conservative youth. The hosts highlight the normalization of fascist ideologies, selective adherence to constitutional principles, and the influence of demographic changes on political extremism. Through incisive commentary and notable quotes, they shed light on the urgent need to address and counteract the rising tide of far-right extremism shaping America's future.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Hey, everybody, Tim Miller from the Bulwark here with my buddy Jonathan V. Last jbl, you got to subscribe to his newsletter over@the bulwark.com if you haven't. Boy, I was watching this video over the weekend and I was like, me and JBL got to react to it together. It is Mehdi Hassan over at Zateo and he goes into the lion's den at Jubilee. If you've seen one of these videos where it's one person that argues with 20 youth, and in this case, the frame was one progressive versus 20 far right conservatives featuring Mehdi Hassan. I want to talk to Mehdi, get to get his reaction. But while we're, while we're negotiating that, I feel like we should play you some of the clips because it's so great the way that these things work. Is the protagonist in this case, which is Mehdi, makes a couple of claims, then he argues with his opponents about it. Maddie's claims were Donald Trump is pro crime and pro criminal. Check for me. Donald Trump is defying the Constitution. Another check for me. Immigrants overall are good for America. We're going to go a lot over these clips. That's a check for me. And then Donald Trump's plan for Gaza is ethnic cleansing, and then he replies to a claim about birthright citizenship. So those are. That is the format. Jvl, have you consumed a Jubilee video before or is this going to be your inaugural journey?

[Jonathan V. Last]

So this is essentially like, you know, when they do a stunt with chess where they take Garry Kasparov into Central park and they line up 20 chess boards with people and he just moves from position to position playing 20 games at once. That's what this is, right? Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Except with.

[Tim Miller]

That is what this is.

[Jonathan V. Last]

An English public school boy who's Oxford educated against a bunch of idiots from Twitter. Great. Fair fight.

[Tim Miller]

And some of the people are eating the pieces. I think in this game, I don't know that all the people are actually playing chess on the other side.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Wild. Wild.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. We need to experience it together. So I want to play a couple of the highlight clips and, and I think that we're doing this in part for the laughs, but in part because I, I do think that there is an insight here about the nature of what is happening with the MAGA youth that I think is important for everybody to sit with. It's not a, not a, not an optimistic insight. If you, if you're not surprised by that, let's start. Wait, they don't want to go back up. Producer Jared, firing up some. What's that?

[Jonathan V. Last]

The manga youth don't want to go back to Nikki Haley, Tim?

[Tim Miller]

I don't believe so. We're about to find out. Okay. Yeah, we're about to find out. I don't think compassionate conservatism is the future. Jared, why don't you fire up the first clip? Okay. That guy's excited to go. Nice to meet you.

[Connor]

Pleasure to meet you, sir.

[Mandy]

Mandy, lovely to meet you.

[Connor]

So, I would say that with Trump being anti Constitution, I don't really care, to be quite frank, because in regards. Notice the nodding in regards to the Constitution. The Constitution is a document that should seek to serve us. And when it fails to seek to serve us, that can be amended, laws can be changed. And quite frankly, the fact is we're defending things in this country that shouldn't be defended. The First Amendment should not defend pornography and making children and women be victimized. Making women and children be victimized. As a result of that, I think things like blasphemy shouldn't be allowed per the First Amendment. I think that, quite frankly, there are a lot of legal processes that are enabling criminals and bad people to fully enact their will in this country in the name of the Constitution or following the Constitution. So, quite frankly, if Trump is anti Constitution, good. And I think he should go further.

[Mandy]

So this is. This is wonderfully revealing of the modern conservative mindset. So I appreciate you spelling it out so openly. Just checking. Do you support the Second Amendment?

[Connor]

I do.

[Mandy]

Okay, surprise. I was shocked to hear that. I'm saying that Donald Trump is defying the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth Amendment, the 14th Amendment. He's thinking of defying the 12th and 22nd Amendments. You're saying you don't care about the Constitution, but actually you do because you quite like the Second Amendment. You just don't like the bits that you disagree with. Can I just be clear on that?

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

[Connor]

I'm more than. I'm more than willing to amend it and whenever it's in your favor. Yeah, absolutely.

[Mandy]

Can Democrats do the same when they're in office?

[Connor]

No, absolutely not. Because you don't believe in democracy. No, I don't. Absolutely not.

[Mandy]

What do you believe in?

[Connor]

Autocracy.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, okay, we'll stop there. We'll come back to him. Quite frankly, at le Points for honesty. At least it's an ethos.

[Jonathan V. Last]

At least it's an ethos. What a. What a wild ride this guy goes on. And he. I guess this is what this is. I'm fumbling for his name. It's not Patrick Deneen. Who's the other?

[Tim Miller]

Adrian Vermeule.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Right. This is the Twitter level of Adrian Vermeule, which is, I just want my Catholic theocracy. But what I don't quite understand is, like, where's the popular sport for that? Because, like, you know, practicing Catholics in America are no longer a practicing Christians are not a majority anymore. We have a whole bunch of unchurched people. Like, I don't. That's the weirdness of, like, this guy doesn't seem to understand that he's representing, like, a group that's like 25, 35% of the country. He's not sitting on 65%.

[Tim Miller]

Well, that's why he doesn't want democracy.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, I guess that's right. But you can't, like, again, autocracy, even. Even. Like, the. Even theocratic autocracy has to have some fair, significant base of support. Right? And the whole thing is.

[Tim Miller]

The thing I love about it is that is just like, that they. The thing that is concerning, that I also love about it is that they have this framework even at all. Like, I don't know. I was once. I always feel like, a little bit at home in these settings with these crazy conservative children, because I was one, you know, and I remember being around and we were like, you know, we were contrarians. We said shit just to piss off the liberal teachers, to see if we could get a rise out of them. I was a child. I did all of that. I grew and matured. Many, unfortunately, way more than I would have expected, have not done so. But, like, even then, even, like, I think about myself in that world in 2000 or whatever, it's like the notion that somebody in one of my, you know, young Republican groups would have been like, you know what? I'm actually for autocracy. I'm actually for autocracy. It would have been so far afield. Right? Like, the Overton window has moved such an insane way that he could say that bluntly. And then you go around the room and people are, like, nodding, Nodding.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, yeah. It's wild. I want to show my favorite part, against blasphemy laws. I mean, do you remember when. Back when people were worried about Sharia coming to America? Right around two, too. And, you know, wow, we gotta have the First Amendment and the freedom.

[Connor]

You know, they.

[Jonathan V. Last]

They hate us because we got all this awesome porn, and now we want Catholic Sharia.

[Tim Miller]

It's like, hey, man, wow, let's go on to the. To a little bit more of this guy's interview, my favorite part is when he explicitly defines his worldview even more. And the response in the room has Mehdi Shook. So let's go to that.

[Mandy]

How does the United States look like under. Sorry, what's your name?

[Connor]

My name is. Well, my name's Connor. It's a pleasure to meet you.

[Mandy]

Took a little bit of a doubt.

[Connor]

I use a pseudonym on.

[Tim Miller]

Fair enough.

[Connor]

Fair enough.

[Mandy]

How would Conor's America look? What would it look like?

[Connor]

Well, quite frankly, I think we would deport people who shouldn't be.

[Mandy]

What does the government look like?

[Connor]

What's the government look like? Yeah, I would say, quite frankly, it's under a sort of benevolent leader such as Franco. It could be a kind of aristocratic class. Could be someone who picks the autocrat, frankly, the people. I mean, we could hold a vote on it.

[Mandy]

Kings, democracy.

[Connor]

Well, sure, you can have a vote.

[Mandy]

To get to that and then no more votes afterwards.

[Connor]

Absolutely. 100.

[Mandy]

Wow. And if that autocrat kills you and your family, you're fine with that?

[Connor]

Well, I'm not. I'm not going to be a part of the group that he kills because that's the whole thing.

[Mandy]

How do you know?

[Connor]

Everyone makes this point very well in his work. It's the friend enemy distinction. Right.

[Mandy]

You Carl Schmidt, the Nazi theoretician.

[Connor]

Absolutely. I don't care.

[Mandy]

Are you fan of the Nazis?

[Connor]

I don't care. I frankly don't care. Being called the Nazi?

[Mandy]

I didn't say that. I didn't actually say that. I said, are you a fan of the Nazis?

[Connor]

Well, they persecuted the church and I'm not a fan of that.

[Mandy]

But what about the persecution of the Jews?

[Connor]

Well, I mean, I certainly don't support anyone's human dignity being assaulted. I'm a Catholic.

[Mandy]

But you don't condemn Nazi persecution of the Jews.

[Connor]

I think that there was a little bit of persecution.

[Mandy]

We rename the show because you're a little bit more than a far right Republican.

[Connor]

Hey, what can I say?

[Mandy]

I think you say I'm a fascist.

[Connor]

Yeah, I am. Absolutely.

[Mandy]

I'm just checking who's clapping just to get my set of where everyone is on this because you know that millions of people are going to be watching you on YouTube and checking out who the fascists and the Nazis are.

[Connor]

I'm not ashamed of that.

[Tim Miller]

That was my favorite bit of the whole thing. Then he's like, I'm just checking. He's like, wait a minute, there. There are many people clapping. It's like 1, 2, 3, 4. That is alarming. JBL. What is your state of alarm after watching that exchange?

[Jonathan V. Last]

I mean, here's the problem. The problem is that these are just far right Republicans, and far right Republicans are now, by their own admission, because their program is fascism. Right? I mean, this is. This. This is the thing, right? It isn't the. It isn't like you have the far right Republicans or the people with their pocket constitutions. And then over there somewhere, there's like five guys in a corner at a cafe who, you know, who want fascism. That's not how it is anymore. Now that's like all the Claremont Institute and, you know, maybe 40 or 50 or 5,000 people inside the executive branch and all these young guys on Twitter. It's really fucking bad.

[Tim Miller]

Are you ready for this? Just in case there's anybody that's like, you guys have tds, like, this is not true. These people, you know, these Jubilee assholes are libs that they found the craziest people they could find. This was one of my favorite little factoids I found digging deep on this over the weekend. The leading Republican candidate for Texas Attorney General follows that man on Twitter. The Nazi boy. The Nazi boy. And so it's like, yeah, like, these guys are in the firmament, you know, it's like the guys that are running for office and Republicans. It reminds me of that Joe Kent video I did way back in the day where Joe Kent was running for Congress and against Mary Guzen Camp Perez of the Pacific Northwest. And, like, there's these, like, dorm room Nazis, like, in his district. Those little groipers, right? Yeah, yeah. And he had to do. He did, like, a zoom call. Yeah, he did a zoom call with them where he's kind of, like, apologizing to them for not being white nationalist enough. It's like that, like, these guys, like, Mark, the core of the MAGA kind of youth movement, like that is they are representative, and I think it is accurate to be representative to have that man say, I am explicit fascist. And having that room of 20, it's like, you know, about half of them are like, yeah, yeah, super into it.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Carl Schmidt.

[Tim Miller]

And then there's like, one girl they show. He's kind of like, wait a minute.

[Jonathan V. Last]

That side eye she gives when he won't say anything. But it's like, I just signed up.

[Tim Miller]

For the abortion restrictionism here. Okay? I don't know. I just signed up because I went to pro life camp, all right? I don't know. I didn't. I didn't realize who I was with. So there is A little bit of that happening. But, man, Carl Schmidt shout outs. You don't see that. You don't see that every day.

[Jonathan V. Last]

And also, you know, like, I don't know. Carl Schmidt isn't the deepest pole in the world, but it's a little bit of a poll. Right? I mean, this is somebody who's done some reading. This is somebody who's done his own research.

[Tim Miller]

He's probably not in the social studies book for the juniors in high school.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

You know, when you're just kind of doing the one test on. On Nazis on World War II.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Eichmann gets mentioned.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Eichmann, Goebbels, Mengele and, you know, Eva Braun and.

[Tim Miller]

Right. That's kind of.

[Jonathan V. Last]

To get down to Carl Schmidt. Anyway, I just.

[Tim Miller]

He did his own research, I guess. I guess it's safe to say he did his own research to get to Carl Schmidt. That's.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. He seems, like, weirdly pleased with himself, too, in ways that I can't tell if that. Well, here's the real. I guess he tweeted it out.

[Tim Miller]

His video.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Like his own video. He treated. He's using it to get followers.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Does he strike. And I feel bad using this word because I don't mean it, but does he strike you as neurotypical? Does he strike you as normal? Because everything about this kid sort of feels wrong, and I can't tell if it's because, like, he's on camera and he's not used to be on camera, and he's amped up, you know, because he looks like he's had about 50 Red Bulls in the last.

[Tim Miller]

Here's. Here's my answer to that question. Do Stephen Miller and Elon Musk and J.D. vance strike you as neurotypical? Because I don't know if. Even if he isn't, I don't know that it's limiting potential political power.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Fair point.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. All right, Jared, we have a couple of. I don't want to pick on the one Carl Schmidt fan alone. Let's just get. Let's just give you a little more taste. Just a couple more clips.

[Unknown]

I don't know where you're at in the uk. You're from India, so I don't really.

[Mandy]

I'm not from India.

[Unknown]

Are you. Sorry. Your parents are from India, so.

[Mandy]

I'm an American.

[Unknown]

You have your own state.

[Mandy]

I'm an American.

[Unknown]

You know, you're an American citizen. Okay, fair enough. I don't know how you got that, but fair enough. Here's the thing.

[Mandy]

Are you an American citizen?

[Unknown]

Absolutely.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Okay.

[Mandy]

But here's not sure how you got that.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Born here.

[Mandy]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Born here in my. My family lineage is settlers from the 1500s, so I have some stake in the claim here. Okay, but you're a little different.

[Mandy]

You're a descendant of immigrants, et cetera.

[Unknown]

I did not.

[Mandy]

Colonialists.

[Connor]

Yeah.

[Mandy]

You don't look very Native American to me.

[Unknown]

Native. I am Native American. Whites are Native Americans. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Whites are Native Americans.

[Tim Miller]

Really?

[Mandy]

What was happening before the 1500s?

[Tim Miller]

I think you're getting confused with it.

[Mandy]

I don't mind going on a tangent, but what was happening before the 1500s? I think you're getting what was happening before the 1500s.

[Unknown]

There was indigenous people here that came here.

[Mandy]

Do you know what indigenous means?

[Unknown]

Listen, before indigenous people come from somewhere else, why do you ask a question? If you going to interrupt?

[Mandy]

I'm not sure if you know what the meaning of indigenous means.

[Unknown]

I do know what it means. I came here first. Right. They came here from Asia by way of land bridge. Have an argument with Neil DeGrasse Tyson or anybody else about that. I don't care.

[Mandy]

Is he in America?

[Unknown]

I genuinely don't care. Yes, he is.

[Tim Miller]

That's a fair question.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Mandy]

Nothing to do with crime. So far you've agreed with me that.

[Unknown]

These people are derailing. Dude, I'm like, I'm trying.

[Mandy]

You literally sat down and asked me where I'm from. I think you derailed this conversation by that. But I'm not offended.

[Tim Miller]

I'm just wondering. Okay, I've seen enough of this. I've seen enough. This. The whites is the Native Americans. That's a theory. It's a theory. It seems like a popular theory in the group.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yeah, it's. You know, it's. It's not. I guess this is the real tension. Do you want Christo fascism or white nationalist fascism? And I feel like a few more.

[Tim Miller]

Claps for the white nationalist fascism. Actually, you know, I have a. I.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Have a pretty strong belief that those two groups can hold hands and make it work initially. But, you know, like, if they get what they want, these things never last. Right. And none of them seem to realize that. And there do.

[Tim Miller]

There does become. And I got. I once got into a Twitter fight myself. I'm not above it with Adrian Vermeul, the aforementioned gentleman who's more the kind of the Harvard Winnie the Pooh and the tuxedo version of these guys. And. And the main thrust of my argument with him was that there's a pretty big flaw in theory of the Christo fascism and the Catholic whatever fascism coming to America, which is that you're going to need the Hispanics. They'd be a pretty key part of the coalition. Like, if you're going to. You need every Catholic you can get, and a lot of them these days are Hispanics and are recent immigrants. And eventually you're gonna hit a crux point with the white nationalists on this. And he got really offended about that and said that of course you would include the Hispanics. And I was like, I don't know then why you're in coalition with Stephen Miller. Because that's. They're the tip of the spear of the target of the white nationalists. So, yeah, a conflict does arise eventually, but for, you know, as long as they can just pick on media, it's okay for now.

[Jonathan V. Last]

It's a. It is what. I mean, I guess I don't quite understand where this idea of. Well, we have stakes in it because I can trace my lineage back to 1500. Like, what stakes do you have? Like, it's just nonsensical. Like, it doesn't.

[Tim Miller]

It's European. I mean, it's traditional European view. Right. Like, you're not a real German. You're not a real Frenchman. You know, your ancestors did not come from the Rhine or whatever. But traditionally not American. It's not something that you'd heard here a lot.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Not. Not for some time.

[Tim Miller]

Not for some time. Yeah. You know, the Mayflower Americans, like, I always laughed at Dalangachamath Palihipatia was talking about how we have. Need to have greater respect for the Mayflower of traditional Americans. And I was like, yes, the traditional Mayflower Americans. You know, Smith Wright, Palihepatia. Anyway, let's just do one more. There's so many. We could do a lot. Let's just pick one more. Just for fun. Jared Dealer's choice.

[Mandy]

This is the point they created to this country. So far, every one of my assumptions about you has been correct. But listen to me. I am an immigrant. I'm speaking from personal experience. I don't even. Like, I should get the hell out.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Mandy]

Why?

[Unknown]

I don't want you here.

[Tim Miller]

Why?

[Connor]

Because you come here and say all this about how Americans are lazy. You push your left one.

[Mandy]

I never said Americans.

[Unknown]

I don't know why you say this.

[Mandy]

I never said Americans are lazy.

[Tim Miller]

Attacking people coming to this country so.

[Unknown]

They can do jobs that we don't want to do.

[Tim Miller]

When.

[Mandy]

When did I say. When did I say it YouTube. Guys watching on YouTube, rewind to the time where I said immigrants are doing jobs we don't want to do. When did I say those words? Words that came out of my mouth.

[Connor]

Okay, so why don't, why do we have to bring in immigrants? Why do we have to bring in immigrants to the country if we have.

[Unknown]

People who are going to do the jobs?

[Jonathan V. Last]

Pause.

[Tim Miller]

You've been voted out.

[Mandy]

Nice token tough.

[Tim Miller]

Loaded up by his own little Carl Schmitz.

[Mandy]

You're going to have to go, bro. Is what he said as I left to an American citizen.

[Tim Miller]

Good.

[Mandy]

Good to know where you stand on immigration. It's not about immigration, is it? That's what it's not about.

[Tim Miller]

Well, that guy, that's part of a longer clip about economics. He had a very lengthy exchange about where his main argument was that immigration, if you look at certain studies, decreases native born earnings by like 0.5% in certain industries. And so as part of that we need to just make sure that only whites can get the jobs. But I don't, it's, I, to me it's like the main takeaway. You see, you mentioned the first guy being potentially not neurotypical. That dude is just a totally normal.

[Jonathan V. Last]

That's totally normal, right?

[Tim Miller]

He's just a frat dude. Yeah. And it shows you. This is like kind of my Bill Kristol view about like how like things are not inevitable actually. Like leadership matters, you know, you know, things are, history is contingent. And you just, you can imagine a world where in 2016, Marco Rubio's attempt to make fun of Donald Trump for having a small penis worked. And he ekes out a victory, and he ekes out a victory over Hillary. And this guy is kind of just like for whatever, you know, tax cuts and bombing Arabs. Like he's not going to be Mr. Compassion. And I'm not not saying that's good or whatever, but like you can just see like the way that this like white nationalist, white genocide, they get, a couple of them say they're for white genocide in this, in this long jubilee or not for white genocide, but they believe white genocide is something that's happening. Like that is the central identity of young conservatives is something that has been molded by Trump and Stephen Miller and, and that it's going to be like a generation to roll back if ever.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Yes. And I, you know, there are two things which I, they are not yet totally mainstream in conservatism, but I think they're close. And that is the idea of ending birthright citizenship, which until Donald Trump mentioned doing it, like in an aside in his first term was something that nobody, you know, like the five people at the Claremont Institute had thought about and nobody else. You could walk around and ask in 2016, every registered Republican America, do you think we need to get rid of birthright citizenship? And literally all but 12 would have said, what are you talking about? No. And now we're at a point where that's basically table stakes. The next one is going to be revoking citizenship. And this is a thing which, again, there is a law on the books which allows you to do it. You can revoke people's citizenship. It's an old law from the Red Scare days meant to protect us from commies and Soviet spies. But you can see in this and in the Trump tweets, which have started about, you know, oh, we're going to revoke Rosie o' Donnell citizenship. He's talking about revoking Zoran Mamdani's citizenship. That's coming too. I think, like, I think we're headed towards a place where one of the tenets of conservatism is going to be we can, we can create the populace we want by unpersoning and revoking the citizenship of the people we don't like and making them stateless. And that's. Man, that is down the path to some really, really bad shit.

[Tim Miller]

I've got a question for you. Maybe you don't know, maybe there is no good answer to. But if the serious learning from this, right, is that this is now a generational movement and it is going to be animated by these types of issues, and you think, okay, you need to come up with a counter narrative or counter message. What is the objective now for the rest of us? I think the first step is just acknowledging that this is going to be. This is going to be very pervasive among the young, right, in this country for at least the short term, at least foreseeable future, what can be done about it? And I think that at some level, some of the, this is not to blame, the woke stuff, but some of this is related to kind of backlash, the guys feeling like whatever, that they're, you know, that's. That the more, you know, credit or attention is being given to these marginalized groups and that makes them feel less, you know, less than in their back. Some of it's related. So if that, and so I don't know that, like, forcing that stuff down their throat is going to really help. What could help, do you think?

[Jonathan V. Last]

No idea. Demographic progress is probably the answer, right? I mean, the, the, the answer may be. I'm just theorizing here and thinking out loud that these are the sort of reactions you have when big societies are in the midst of large scale demographic change, which we are over the last 60 years or so, we've gone from being. I don't have the numbers in front of me, so I don't have them exactly right, but like, you know, 85, 80% white to down. I think we're like 50 to 60% white at something 20 years, though that.

[Tim Miller]

Is based on the notion that Italians are meaningfully different from Venezuelans. And, and you know, from a race standpoint, you know what I mean? Because it does include Hispanics.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Well, includes Hispanic, right. So Hispanics blow up from, you know, like 6% to like 25%. You know, African Americans hold, hold serve at like 11% Asian percent.

[Tim Miller]

There's not that much demographic change. There's an uptick in Asian population. There's not that. If you're, if you, if you consider Hispanic people not any different from Southern Europeans, right. From a racial demographic standpoint, like, that's all a construct. It's all a cultural, I mean, I don't know, I don't think that like Germans in 1940 in America would have seen, would have thought that the wops were any different than the Mexicans, I don't think.

[Jonathan V. Last]

But they did, right? I mean, those, those constructs did used to exist and then they faded away. So like, you know, maybe moving to a majority, minority demographic mix here could, I mean, I guess it could make it worse or it could solve it. I don't know is the answer. And I just don't see a way because it isn't really about opportunity. It's not about economics. It's not about economics. Look at those kids in their, their Vineyard Vines shirts and shit, you know, so it isn't like that. You can solve it by, you know, slicing the pie and giving those people more of it.

[Tim Miller]

None of these guys were like mowing the lawn and had their lawn mowing job taken by Honduran immigrants. Like, that was not, that's not the case.

[Jonathan V. Last]

And so like what, what is the remedy? And the remedy is to make them stop wanting fascism. And like, I don't know how you do that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know. I feel like there should be a remedy comment if you have some thoughts. I'm going to think more deeply about this rather than popping off. All right, Producer Jared, I said that was last one. Producer Jared said there's One real good one. So we'll do a real fast. We'll give everybody a little dessert. One more. One more clip from the video. Oh, wow.

[Mandy]

That's three people so far. Let's keep counting. We should be nicer to you, otherwise you'll deport us. What a great argument. This is a free speech debate cast. It's not your country, my friend. It's our country, whether you like it or not.

[Tim Miller]

That's a nice place to leave it. I want to. We're inviting Maddie on because I kind of want a behind the scenes. I'm desperate for behind the scenes. You know, you do these things, and it's like, off camera, were they nicer, were they meaner? You know, did that. Were they scared of him, didn't want to talk to him? I'm. I'm desperate to hear Maddie's take from inside the lion's den, so hopefully he'll come on and chat with us about it.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Can I ask you just a. Just a judging, you know, figure skating judging on points.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Jonathan V. Last]

These kids all seem supremely confident and like, they were. They thought they were winning.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Jonathan V. Last]

And I don't quite understand it. I mean, Mehdi is, again, he's. He is a British public school boy. He went to Oxford. This is what they fucking do with that educational system. You know, his degrees in philosophy and politics. That means at Oxford, he spent all of his life debating people. Like, he's really, really good at it. And he basically undressed all of these kids. And there seems to have been no recognition of, like, ah, you know, I hate him and, you know, but he's crafty. And, you know, I'm a little. I should have made my points better. Oh.

[Tim Miller]

Like I said, the one. The first kid we showed posted his entire thing on Twitter. I saw it. The. And. And part of what got me to watch these things, because I got to be honest, these things, you know, online debate stuff, it's a dime a dozen. It's for some people. It's not really for me. But what got me to watch it was that I was seeing a back and forth about the backwards hat kid and his debate with Mehdi on the economics of immigration and a lot of, like, right wingers sharing it and being like, the dude beat Mehdi. And so I was kind of like, oh, well, I'm kind of curious about that. Like, that can't be true. Maybe it's true. I'm wondering what happened. So that was what drew me in. And I watched that whole exchange, and it's like, again, he got. The core of his argument was that, you know, some studies show that native born Americans lose 0.5% on their, on their salary. And it's like, okay, I mean, that's great, but on the grand scheme of things, of all the other things immigrants bring to a society, it's like, okay, I'm happy to give up 0.5% of my salary to have a more welcoming nation. But you know, I think that it shows that again, it's more than being in a bubble. Right? It is. These guys were 14 when Donald Trump came down to the escalator. They have been forged in this they now believe a great man narrative about Trump and about the fact that America was being overrun by the wokes and the immigrants and leftists. And it's Donald Trump that's fighting him back. And we need to reinstate, you know, a more traditional white America, you know, in order to save America and the West. And that like that is to your point, about table stakes, about being for birthright citizenship. Like that that framework is like, is unimpeachable to them. Right? And so like the arguments that Pierce it don't work. You know what I mean? It'd be like a very faithful Catholic arguing with Christopher Hitchens. And like some, you could, we could want, you know, somebody could watch and be like, well, Hitchens is winning on the points, but it's like other faithful Catholics are watching. It's like, well, Hitchens won't even acknowledge though that. Right. You know what I mean? It's like it is so fundamental to their worldview that America is a white nation. Right. I think that they don't even, they can't even allow the counterargument, I think.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Is what it was. It was like, you know, like he was there to fight Mehdi on the idea that Donald Trump doesn't care about the Constitution. And he just concedes that Donald Trump doesn't care about the Constitution. And he then tries to argue that actually it doesn't matter and the Constitution is bad and it's only a tool to be used for oppression. And again, like I. That means you lost, right? Like, dude, you. And there doesn't seem to be any, any understanding.

[Tim Miller]

It's weird.

[Jonathan V. Last]

Weird.

[Tim Miller]

No acknowledgment. You're a loser. Okay, that's jbl. We had to do that together. Hopefully Maddie will come on. We can do a little bit more if you. Hopefully you guys are obsessed with this as I am. And we got more coming for you here, so subscribe to the feed. Subscribe to JBL's newsletter over at thebork. Com. Give us a like. We'll see you all soon. Bye.