Tim & Bill on the Creepiest Trump Propaganda Yet

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Tim & Bill on the Creepiest Trump Propaganda Yet

Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: Tim Miller & Bill Kristol

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Overview

In this timely episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Miller and Bill Kristol analyze a new social media campaign from the Department of Labor under the Trump administration that, in their view, crosses the line into explicit white nationalist territory. They break down the campaign's imagery, discuss its resonance with 1950s nostalgia and blood-and-soil nationalism, and highlight the dangers of self-radicalization in American right-wing politics. The episode also delves into Tucker Carlson’s recent interview with white identitarian Nick Fuentes, exploring how extremist ideas are becoming increasingly normalized among Trump allies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Reaction to the Department of Labor Campaign

[00:37]–[03:32]

• Tim Miller describes the campaign's visual style:

  • Imagery is “definitionally white nationalist"—"nationalist social media campaign that only includes whites.”
  • Photos feature “Muscly white men, a blonde, another blonde, a blonde, a blonde … Oil rigs, refineries, Statue of Liberty, ironically… white family, American flag…all look vaguely like they're from the 1950s.”
    (Tim Miller, 00:37)

• Bill Kristol’s skepticism and concern:

  • Initially thought the images were a fake or parody due to their retro and extreme style.
  • Sees "Germany in the 30s resonance," finding the campaign grotesque and “cartoonish.”
    (Bill Kristol, 02:08)

• Historical echoes:

  • Emphasize the way this kind of propaganda draws from historical fascist imagery.

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2. The Power and Danger of "Trolling" as Radicalization

[03:32]–[05:00]

• Tim Miller warns against dismissing the campaign as mere trolling:

  • “Sorry, I don't like the fact that it's a troll is not an excuse… eventually, over time, you start posting more and more of those things and you start to believe it, and you self-radicalize.”
    (Tim Miller, 03:32)

• Kristol on the "fever swamp" expanding:

  • The fringe of extremism within the Trump movement is “now…25%, 40%, 60%” of the movement.

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3. Tucker Carlson’s Interview with Nick Fuentes

[07:32]–[12:09]

• Tim Miller recaps watching the full two-hour interview:

  • Notes that Carlson is “credulously trying to understand how Nick [Fuentes] got radicalized.”
  • Fuentes presents himself initially as merely a disaffected youth, but is “explicitly white identitarian.”
  • Concern that Fuentes, for the first hour, “does not come off as a wild eyed freak.” This makes the message more seductive to potentially radicalizable listeners.
  • “Tucker uses that word. You are ascendant in the movement. And Tucker has the number one most listened to news podcast… so it's extremely important.”
    (Tim Miller, 08:04)

• Absurd and disturbing turn in the interview:

  • Fuentes expresses admiration for Joseph Stalin and embraces inceldom—“not wanting to have a girlfriend and get laid… being celibate and liking Stalin”
    (Tim Miller, 10:23)
  • Tim’s take: This extremism may be self-limiting, as such views are inherently unappealing to most.

• Bill Kristol’s concern:

  • “I would have assumed that was the case a few years ago. I'm a little uncertain these days. Everything is sliding away…”
    (Bill Kristol, 10:56)
  • The radicalization pipeline is accelerating, and the normalization of figures like Fuentes is deeply troubling.

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4. Dissecting the Department of Labor's “Project Firewall” Post

[12:09]–[17:22]

• The campaign’s message:

  • "Restoring the American dream... Project Firewall will restore the American dream by ensuring American jobs go to Americans first."
    (Tim Miller reading, 13:25)
  • Interpretation: Thinly veiled white nationalist message. Tim points out, “The only way to interpret that…is working on a project to ensure that white Americans whose stock goes back to the early parts of the country have advantage in job and getting jobs.”

• Kristol contextualizes Project Firewall:

  • Ostensible focus on H1-B visa reductions, but the imagery is all “blood and soil nationalism replacing American patriotism.”
    (Bill Kristol, 14:05)
  • Critically, "the American Dream" is framed as a racially exclusive concept rather than a universal one.

• Rhetorical lineage:

  • Miller likens the messaging to previous rhetoric: “America is for Americans and Americans only.”

• False nostalgia:

  • Campaign visuals appeal to an imagined 1950s America, ignoring the diversity and reality of the contemporary labor force.
    (Kristol, 16:19)

• The stakes:

  • Miller: “It would be very creepy and wrong if it's a campaign. But the Department of Labor actually is a department for all Americans, no matter their race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, religion. Right. And this administration does not think that.”
    (Tim Miller, 17:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tim Miller on radicalization:

  “Eventually, over time, you start posting more and more of those things and you start to believe it and you start to become—you self radicalize…”
  (03:32)

• Bill Kristol on fascist echoes:

  “…two thirds of me, thinks this is really grotesque and it really is white nationalist and it has a vague Germany in the 30s resonance to it.”
  (02:08)

• On the potential normalization of extremists:

  “Tucker has the number one most listened to news podcast … and so it's extremely important.”
  (Tim Miller, 08:04)

• On false nostalgia and blood-and-soil nationalism:

  “It is really European blood and soil nationalism replacing American patriotism.”
  (Bill Kristol, 14:05)

• Summing up the Department of Labor campaign:

  “It would be very creepy and wrong if it's a campaign. But the Department of Labor actually is a department for all Americans ... And this administration does not think that.”
  (Tim Miller, 17:05)

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:37 – Miller’s breakdown of the campaign’s imagery
• 02:08 – Kristol’s initial disbelief and comparison to 1930s Germany
• 03:32 – Discussion of self-radicalization and “trolling”
• 07:32 – Recap of the Tucker Carlson/Nick Fuentes interview
• 10:23 – Fuentes’s Stalin admiration & incel talk
• 13:25 – Reading and interpretation of the Project Firewall post
• 14:05 – Kristol critiques the redefinition of the American Dream
• 16:19 – Discussion of America’s actual diverse labor force
• 17:05 – The core issue: The Department of Labor’s exclusionary stance

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, direct, and laced with dark humor and alarmed incredulity. Miller and Kristol maintain a tone of urgent concern, frequently referencing historical lessons and critiquing the normalization of extremism—while still delivering their signature dry wit.

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Summary Takeaway

Tim Miller and Bill Kristol see frightening signs in recent Trump administration moves: both in the Department of Labor’s propagandistic, exclusionary campaign and in the growing mainstreaming of formerly fringe figures like Nick Fuentes. The episode closes with the stern reminder that this is no longer just trolling or fringe rhetoric—the dangerous slide from ironic racism to full-blown radicalization is now being powered from the highest levels of government and media.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here. We got some bonus content with our editor at large, Bill Crystal. After yesterday's banger pod, you people just wanted more, more, more. How you doing, Bill?

[B]

I'm fine. I don't quite believe what you. I don't believe what you just said, but that's nice. If some people wanted more, more, more.

[A]

It is True. Read the YouTube comments. I never read YouTube. Subscribe. Yeah, subscribe to the feed and comment. Yeah, the YouTube commenters.

[B]

I should actually, you know, it's like just in the early days of the Internet, you couldn't read the comment, you know, and then when I was on Twitter first in 2014, I was a war criminal, so I didn't particularly feel like reading those comments. I don't know why. I mean, I'm sure I would have learned a lot from them.

[A]

So, yeah, I still wouldn't read the comments on Twitter. But the YouTube, the Bulwark YouTube page, we've cultivated some good people. I mean, some of you guys are wrong sometimes, and we're going to go over that. But, like, I appreciate your comments. Okay, so the Department of Labor has put out a social media campaign, and I don't think that there's any reason to kind of mince words about what it is. I just think that it is definitionally white nationalist in the sense that it's a nationalist social media campaign that only includes whites. And so I want to put up on the screen just kind of a collage here of images and go through them with you. So we've got a family behind an American flag. White guy and wife with two kids. All these people look vaguely like they're from the 1950s. There's like a 1950s,'50s aesthetic to it. Then we do have some diversity here. We've got, let's see, about 11 pictures of Muscly white men, a blonde, another blonde, a blonde, a blonde, a kind of a brunette, reddish head guy, a brunette, a blonde, brunette, brunette, blonde and blonde. So a lot of blonde white men with muscles and collared shirts on in various scenes. Oil rigs, refineries, Statue of Liberty, ironically. And then we got one of another family and church, white family, American flag. So we've got another specific campaign I want to get to, but just at the biggest picture. Is there anything there you notice, Bill?

[B]

No, I'm with you. I first couldn't believe it was real. So I think someone on. I first saw it. Maybe you did, too, on a tweet where someone had assembled those. There's those Images, Right. Yeah. It's good for that person to do that. But I thought maybe it was like, fake. Maybe it was a joke almost.

[A]

And I. I also gave me in.

[B]

Slack, you said, is this a joke? And I had said the same thing to whoever I was on texting with at that moment. You know, are we sure this is real? And I believe it is, and I think people checked and. And you can go to the Department of Labor Twitter account and see it. So that kind of suggests it's real. Yeah. Only we can go back to the good old days of these healthy white men doing American jobs in an American way. And then the family in church with the wife looking adoringly at the man and the two cute little kids. Really? Yeah. In the pew there. That's really. I mean, it is. It's so retro. I mean, again, it's like, it's so retro. It's so stupid. It's so pointless in a way. And one doesn't want to, in a way, take it too serious. I mean, I don't know, what do you think? I see it like, half of me, two thirds of me, thinks this is really grotesque and it really is white nationalist and it has a vague Germany in the 30s resonance to it. You know, just literally in terms of the kind of insane, maybe not even vague, you know, kind of. Anyway, the cartoonish character of what they're glorifying and stuff. Then a bit of me thinks, ugh, I'm being too serious here. That just. It's just a stupid advertising campaign.

[A]

So here's what I think about all this. It is a troll. It's obviously a troll, right? But I think there are obviously some white racists in this administration. And we've seen the texts, like, we've seen the texts from people that work inside the administration now. So we know that there are some racists in the administration. We know that it attracts racists. And here's the other thing. I get this a lot. And I always, like, I've seen this with younger Republican types and with people that I've followed over the course of the last 10 years. There is a psychological effect that if you keep doing racist jokes over and over again just for the laughs, and maybe it really does start with, like, I just want to trigger the libs. I just want to make old Bill Kristol, you know, and Tim Miller clutch their pearls and like, talk about norms and I'll point, laugh at them. But, like, eventually, over time, you start posting more and more of those things and you start to believe it and you start to become you self radicalize and, and, and I and so that's why where to me it's like sorry, I don't like the fact that it's a troll is not an excuse. Like there's plenty of evidence that I have in my life and that people who are researcher this have seen that like you go down a radicalization pipeline a lot of times with things that start ironic or funny and then you end up finding yourself in a position where you're working for the Department of Labor posting right national as agitprop and like that's what's happening here.

[B]

And other people are also being radical, you know, being starting off semi laughing and ending up fully on board and radicalize the self radicalization. I guess I wrote about this in morning shots of Trumpism as of other past movements of that kind is kind of astonishing and I feel like we're seeing it, we are seeing it in real time. For me it's the Nazis thing here. And you followed this more closely and I'll let you talk more about it. So this Fuentes guy who was Trump had to pretend he didn't know who he was and basically sort of apologize for having a dinner with him at Mar A Lago. What was that, 20, 23 or 4 or something like that. Now he's. And Tucker Carlson wasn' even okay with him though Tucker Carlson himself has already waved down this road and now what is it he's speaking at the next. Well, Tucker Carlson interviewed him on the, on the, on his program yesterday and he's sort of and this other guy is saying, you know, I'm letting the Nazi streak in me run a little bit. That was the guy who they did have to withdraw from, you know, consideration for the Justice Department post, but he'll probably end up somewhere else in the administration. And he said, well, he's certainly in good with I think that parts of Trump and again that part the fever swamp has gotten awfully big. That's the other thing, right? I mean the fever swamp starts out as 2% and is now, I don't know, 25%, 40%, 60% of the Trump movement. I don't know.

[C]

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[A]

Quince.com bulwarktakes I suffered through all two hours of the Tucker and Nick Fontez interview last night while you were watching the World Series. And I had a friend chastise me about this actually, because I was live texting one of my group text chains about like the crazy like things that were happening on this Tucker Nick Fuentes interview. And somebody's like, you know, the World Series is on. I'm like, I'm sorry, this is just my life now your friends, you should.

[B]

Listen to that friend. He seems like a very sensible. He might have some good life advice for you. Your friend there.

[A]

Yeah, and here's the thing about that interview is that speaks exactly to these memes is like the first 45 minutes of it is Tucker just very credulously trying to understand how Nick got radicalized. And Nick, for people who don't know, has questioned the amount of deaths at the Holocaust and has just said as overtly neo Nazi things you can say and has a group called the Groipers that is explicitly white identitarian. Explicitly. So that part I don't know. Nick, I don't believe somebody can correct me, has never said I am a Nazi. But he is explicitly white identitarian and thinks we should talk about white identity more and that whites are getting discriminated against. And so anyway, he's explaining this to Tucker and I gotta say the first 45 minutes is him sort of walking through how this happens. Like I was a Ron Paul person and then I thought it was a troll. And then I got. And then I started wearing my MAGA hat around and people were mean to me. And then I, you know, and I noticed it was a lot of black and brown people that were mean to me. And then I started saying, you know, whatever. And then he kind of walks through this whole process and I'm listening to it and I'm like, this is so dangerous because he does not come off as a wild eyed freak for the first about hour. He comes off as racist like me, as anyone who listens. But I can imagine like an 18 year old like white kid being like, oh, okay, like that makes sense and it is working. Nick Tucker says in the interview that he has him on because he's ascendant. Tucker uses that word. You are ascendant in the movement. And Tucker has the number one most listened to news podcast. Sorry, I wish it wasn't true. But he does in politics and so it's extremely important. Here's the only ray of light. Anytime we bring this up, it's important to bring on their extremism. I want to play one clip from you for you from that interview. So it was like mid December, mid late December. It's actually funny, it was December 18th. I remember because that's an important date.

[B]

To me and it's Joseph Stalin's birthday. I'm a fan. You're a fan of Stalin's.

[A]

Always an admirer. But we don't need to go into that.

[B]

Okay, let's get back. We'll circle back to that.

[A]

So there you go. I mean there is light at the end of the tunnel. They're extremely weird. Like the last 30 minutes you have the Stalin admiration followed by like a very uncomfortable section about how he hates women basically and how he is scared. He doesn't want to date women because women are terrible. And so that's like the only part that gives me a little bit of hope that I think that women hating and like not maybe not women hating, but I think that like not wanting to have a girlfriend and get laid. I think being celibate and liking Stalin seemed likely to be unpopular. But I don't know. What do you think about that?

[B]

I would have assumed that was the case a few years ago. I'm a little uncertain these days. Everything is sliding away, you know, I mean I, yes, I, I sort of agree with that. I kind of tried to make it an analogous point actually in morning shots that at some point the extreme, the self radicalization of Trumpism is really extraordinary. Well, it's historical, has historical precedence, but it's really dangerous. And it's why you can't assume that we've seen the worst because it's, it's clearly accelerating. I mean, right. Just in terms of the movement itself and MAGA world and then within the administration too there, you know, let's, let's try blowing up one boat. Well that worked. Okay, let's just do seven a day now, you know, whatever. And let's forget about all flawless norms, etcetera, etcetera. So no. So on the one hand it's very, very dangerous. On the other hand, one does think it gets so extreme and so crazy that there's got the reaction, gets a real reaction to it gets more likely at some point. Now how much destruction they do along the way is another question anyway. So I guess, yeah, I take the point that it's, it's, it's somewhat hopeful that is that crazy and that normalized. And we'll be having this conversation a year from now. And Fuentes will be speaking at the biggest conservative conference. But he went further, went further than we could possibly justify because he's defending God knows what. The Stalin thing is interesting. So he likes all mass murderers basically, right?

[A]

He likes Stalin and Stalin, I should say. At the end of it, Tucker says, okay, we'll circle back to that. Viewers will be surprised to learn that Tucker never did circle back to that. I don't think he wanted to explore that any deeper. I was curious though, and so I went and did some searching to see if he had mentioned his Stalin love before. He has. You won't be surprised. And what he admires about Stalin is Stalin is like him. He is five, six, pockmarked, ugly, rural from the outside of society and then achieved success. And so that's his explanation. So there you go. He thinks that incel turned mass murderer is something that people should aspire to. Okay, where are we? Oh, we got waylaid. Final thing. Going back to the. We should circle Back to the U.S. department of labor because here's the most recent post. I want to read it to everybody. We'll put it up on the screen here again. It's restoring the American dream. White guy, you know, kind of dishwater dishwasher, blonde hair here, strong chin in a New England town. It's weird that they're always in these New England towns that are, that are all dead, that all would vote for Kamala by like 80%. But anyway, he's in a New England town and here is the. This, the text that goes along with this image. The American dream belongs to the American people. The process is in place and the mission is set. Project Firewall will restore the American dream by ensuring American jobs go to Americans first. I mean, I don't. There's no other way to interpret that as the U.S. department of labor is working on a project to ensure that white Americans whose stock goes back to the early parts of the country have advantage in job and getting jobs. Like reverse affirmative action and racism and anti immigrant sentiment is the only way to interpret that.

[B]

Right, right. That's the broader meaning. I mean, I think this project Firewall, which I googled for two seconds, is some H1B attempt to cut back on H1Bs and get those jobs for Americans. So they would I suppose say, well, this is just this one particular tweak of change of the H1B visa law. But no, the whole message is what you say. There's so many creepy things about it. I just looked at, you know, the American dream. Capital D belongs to the American people. Capital B, what is that? Trump does that too. Capitalizing nouns. I believe you do that in German. So maybe I'm not, not. Not to go all. Not to go all Nazi reductionism on F1, but I feel like it, look, has a certain feel to it. As you say, repeating America, but the American dream belongs to the American people. Not to over interpret this stupid trolling thing is actually revealing. Right? Because that is kind of tells, telltale, I think. I mean the whole Jefferson, Lincoln, everyone thought the American dream is entrusted to the American people to try to carry out as well as we can. But the American dream is a universal dream, right? It's for free. It's equal. All men are created equal. Everyone deserves freedom and rights. Not everyone, unfortunately can have it now. Maybe never, maybe everyone won't ever have it. But it's our privilege, our opportunity if we inherited this, our duty for the people who had to fight for it to try to make this happen here. So it is, in that respect, it is really European blood and soil nationalism replacing American patriotism.

[A]

It's reminiscent of what Stephen Miller said at the Madison Square Garden rally, which is also reminiscent of some German rhetoric, which is America is for Americans and Americans only. And this is just a policy version of that type of rhetoric. And yeah, I don't know, I don't really think that the H1B visa jobs are taking jobs away from muscly Lumberjacks in the Northeast. But it doesn't really quite work. Their image for the pictures to be Bay Area multicultural tech workers, skinny nerdy Bay Area tech workers that are Chinese American and Indian American and also some white Americans. That's who's really losing jobs to H1V. That it doesn't work with the agitprop that way.

[B]

So I mean, just to make the obvious point, I mean, it doesn't work for the labor force as a whole. People have made this point, obviously that most of the labor force is not, you know, a lot of women. 47% of the labor force is female. Obviously a lot of non white Americans in the labor force. So it is. Yeah. In that respect. It's not about anything except this, if you want to be nice to it, I guess, nostalgia for an America that some people have remember with a very rosy and hazy glow from 1950, with none of the downsides, if you want, of that America. And if that's the nice side of it, which I don't think is actually what they deserve. And then the true side of it is the creepiness of the. Yeah, the race. The racists and misogynists for that matter, appeal being put out by the US Government. I mean. Right. And I think it. I wonder.

[A]

Yeah, not a campaign. That's also an important thing. It would be. It would be very creepy and wrong if it's a campaign. But the Department of Labor actually is a department for all Americans, no matter their race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, religion. Right. And this administration does not think that.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Okay. Well, this was enjoyable. Hope everybody enjoyed that. A little ditty, a little bonus. Bill and Tim for you and subscribe to the feed. As I mentioned, tell your friends this is where they can find uplifting content like this and we'll be talking to you all again soon.