Tim is Totally Starstruck: It's Cussin' Katie Couric!

Summary

Bulwark Takes Podcast: "Tim is Totally Starstruck: It's Cussin' Katie Couric!"

Date: September 19, 2025
Host: Tim Miller (The Bulwark)
Guest: Katie Couric

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Episode Overview

This episode features a lively, candid, and unfiltered conversation between Tim Miller and legendary journalist Katie Couric. In the wake of the rapidly shifting news cycle, the duo tackles the fallout from the controversial suspension of Jimmy Kimmel, corporate and government threats to free speech, political intimidation, media consolidation, and ongoing redistricting battles. The discussion is loaded with sharp insights, cussing, and mutual frustration about the trajectory of American media and democracy, peppered with humor and memorable asides.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jimmy Kimmel Suspension & Media Intimidation

Timestamps: [01:58] – [10:28]

• The Kimmel Controversy:
  Tim and Katie react to the regulatory threats that resulted in Jimmy Kimmel’s suspension from late night TV. The pressure originated from FCC commissioner Brendan Carr and was amplified by MAGA media personalities.

  • Tim frames the debacle as “a mob shakedown”:

    “This is a free speech story for sure… but it’s like a lot of the other Trump stuff. It’s a straight corruption story. And this is a mob shakedown, right?” [03:44] (Tim)

  • Katie finds Disney CEO Bob Iger's compliance “shocking and infuriating,” expressing concern for chilling effects across the industry.

• Government Overreach & Free Speech:
  Both discuss longstanding patterns of Trump and allies using the threat of regulatory action to intimidate critics, referencing Trump’s public musings about stripping broadcast licenses from uncooperative media outlets.

  • Katie quotes Trump after Air Force One landing:

    “They’re 97% against me. I mean, they’re getting a license. I would think maybe their license should be taken away.” [06:29] (quoted by Katie)

• Republican Silence:
  Tim doubts that GOP politicians will break ranks to defend free speech in this context, citing their reluctance to cross Trump on signature issues.

  “They’re not going to get on the other side of him now. I think we’ll see kind of non-politicians… But from the politicians, no, I think they’ve signed up for this.” [05:38] (Tim)

• Call for Corporate Backbone:
  Tim and Katie lament media executives’ lack of resistance, arguing that major players like Bob Iger should “call his bluff” and force the administration’s hand—believing most viewers would not support losing beloved programming over political vendettas.

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2. Media Consolidation, Sinclair, and Local News Takeovers

Timestamps: [13:35] – [17:55]

• Sinclair’s Influence:
  Katie reveals Sinclair owns or operates 185 TV stations, shifting national news coverage to the right and turning local stations into “propaganda tools for far right political figures.”

  “I think you have reason, we all have reason to be concerned about sort of how many of these news stations are turning into basically propaganda tools for far right political figures, including Donald Trump.” [15:50] (Katie)

• Chilling Effect on Streamers:
  Both express concerns that streaming platforms are increasingly hesitant to host any political content critical of Trump, not just for partisan reasons but to avoid corporate risk.

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3. Cancel Culture vs. State-Sponsored Retaliation

Timestamps: [17:55] – [20:55]

• Obama's Critique:
  Katie reads Obama’s blistering statement on X condemning the administration for surpassing “cancel culture” and threatening regulatory action against unfavorable media.

  "After years of complaining about cancel culture, the current administration has taken it to a new and dangerous level..." [17:55] (quoted by Katie)

• False Equivalence Warning:
  Tim distinguishes between social media-driven cancel culture and government-driven censorship/control, emphasizing the latter’s far greater threat.

  “This is not that… The issue here, the story here is that the government is pressuring companies to fire him and to stifle his speech in order for them to be able to get something out of the government.” [18:31] (Tim)

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4. Vice Presidential Conspiracy-Mongering & Double Standards

Timestamps: [24:28] – [26:56]

• Official Conspiracy Theories:
  Tim draws attention to the Vice President’s baseless public suggestion that unnamed networks “motivated, inspired, and maybe even funded Charlie Kirk’s murder,” lamenting how outrageous claims by top officials now go largely unchallenged.

  “The Vice President would spread a conspiracy theory like that, and nobody even talks about it because we’re so used to their conspiracy theories… You could not imagine that in the past.” [25:24] (Tim)

• Kimmel’s Actual Comment:
  Katie clarifies the Kimmel quote at the heart of the controversy [26:56], emphasizing he was pointing out partisan exploitation, not peddling misinformation about the shooter.

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5. What’s Next for Kimmel and Network Comedy?

Timestamps: [28:39] – [29:53]

• ABC’s Dilemma:
  Tim doubts the likelihood of Kimmel returning to network TV given pressure from affiliates:

  “ABC’s pressure now is going to come from… even if they put him back on, wouldn’t those NextStar stations put them on now?... If you’re Jimmy, what would you do?” [28:39] (Tim)

• Alternative Distribution:
  Katie shares media writer Bill Carter’s proposal to air Kimmel on streaming platforms (Hulu, Disney+) while threatening affiliates with loss of NFL rights—though both are skeptical Bob Iger would take such an aggressive stance.

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6. Epstein Files—Transparency & Accountability

Timestamps: [30:50] – [32:51]

• Calls for Release:
  Tim and Katie briefly shift to public frustration over the lack of progress on Epstein-related investigations and files. Tim labels government responses as preposterous and expects more to emerge only if Democrats regain House control.

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7. Redistricting Battles, Gerrymandering & 2026 Midterms

Timestamps: [32:51] – [35:54]

• State-Level Power Plays:
  Tim gives a rapid-fire overview of redistricting fights across California, Indiana, Missouri, Florida, Ohio, and more.

  • He predicts Republicans will net four or five more favorable seats due to gerrymandering.

    “My guess is… what we’ll have is less fair maps. The Republicans will probably have four or five seats more that are favorable to them than they would have before this fight.” [34:15] (Tim)

• Midterm Outlook:
  Both agree the next midterm looks fraught, with Tim suggesting Democrats will be highly motivated to turn out but pessimistic about a net improvement in fairness:

  “If you want to be sad, if you want to be depressing about it, then, yeah, you can summarize it. I think it’s going to work. It might not work as well as they had hoped, but it’s going to work.” [35:54] (Tim)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “I just, I still kind of pinch myself sometimes in talking to Katie. And she's cussing Katie now—it's not Today's Show Katie.” [00:58] (Tim)
• “It’s shocking and infuriating, actually.” [02:33] (Katie, on the Kimmel suspension)
• “This is a mob shakedown, right?” [03:44] (Tim)
• “Free speech is fine as long as it doesn’t criticize me. Right?” [11:35] (Katie, on Trump)
• “Sinclair owns or operates 185 TV stations in 86 markets... the shift to the right.” [15:50] (Katie)
• “There was no real threat from this government on Jimmy Kimmel... and all these guys folded in six hours. And it’s truly embarrassing and shameful.” [23:18] (Tim)
• “It’s been a weird week, Katie. I don’t know. And on a long list of weird, strange, screwed up weeks…” [30:18] (Tim)
• “If you want to be sad... I think it’s going to work.” [35:54] (Tim)

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Additional Highlights

• Cussing Grandma Katie:
  The running joke of Katie Couric’s evolution into “cussin’ grandma Katie,” marking a feisty, no-holds-barred tone.
• Media Industry Nuances:
  Insightful asides about Sinclair’s historical influence, the chilling impact on both traditional and streaming media, and the hollowing-out of local, objective news.
• Humor and Candor:
  Several moments reveal the mutual respect and irreverent humor between Tim and Katie, keeping the conversation punchy even as they express deep alarm about American democracy and free speech.

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For Listeners

This episode is essential for anyone following the intersection of media, politics, and free speech in America, delivering both rage and wit in response to deeply worrying trends in 2025. Hear how two media veterans process the news, lament institutional weaknesses, warn about the encroaching dangers to democracy—and yet still manage to make each other laugh.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Can T hey, guys, Tim Miller from the Bulwark here. I popped on Substack Live with the inimitable, the legend, the icon, Katie Couric. I just, I still kind of pinch myself sometimes in talking to Katie. And she's cussing Katie now. It's not today's show Katie. So it's kind of like cussing Grandma Katie. That's not an age joke. She's literally has become a grandma. It was like right around when I first met her. So, you know, just kind of turning over a new leaf. Anyway, we discussed all the news and I think that she is somebody who's been in the corporate media and kind of adjacent entertainment space was really shook by the attacks on Jimmy Kimmel and how swift it was and how quickly Disney folded. So we got kind of deep on the Jimmy Kimmel news. She asked me about a couple other things. Redistricting, some other stuff, more in MySpace, political world. And we had some laughs and we cussed. So it's great. Stick around. Katie Couric and me.

[Katie Couric]

Tim, wtf? I mean, it's so insane that every week is another crazy news cycle, but here we go again. What was your reaction when you heard about Jimmy Kimmel?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, it's like so ridiculous and absurd. It was my first reaction, right? Like, my initial reaction. Sometimes this stuff is like, you almost have to, like laugh and roll your eyes at these guys, like how pathetic they are. It's so embarrassing, you know, and then you go upsetting.

[Katie Couric]

It's so upsetting for me. It's hard to laugh and roll My eyes, I'm so, it's so shocking and infuriating actually.

[Tim Miller]

Right, yeah. And that's what I was going to get. I get there as I learn more about what happened. Right. Like, you know, because this is how you're seeing this stuff. It comes out of nowhere. It springs from the fever swamps. I mean, I don't know about you, but I wasn't watching Brendan Carr on the Benny Johnson Show. You know, I'm not viewer of the Benny Johnson show. He's this MAGA podcaster. But like that's where this stuff stemmed from which he's on the show when he starts threatening these, these local affiliates like the, the, the conglomerates, you know, NextStar, which wants to buy tech, like these companies you never heard, people have never heard of, but they own like your local news stations, right. And they want to merge and CAR is basically threatening them, you know, saying, look, I mean, you know, if we can't have this Jimmy Kimmel on the air saying this inappropriate stuff. And that is when things to me start to get very chilling and you start to dial in on the corruption side of this. Because this is a free speech story for sure and it's a threatening of free speech and chilling of free speech. But it's like a lot of the other Trump stuff. It's a straight corruption story. And this is a mob shakedown, right? That's what this is all about. These local affiliates want to merge. They need Brendan Carr to approve it. He's popping off about how they should crack down on Jimmy Kimmel. They did it, right? They did it. Why Disney and Bob Iger went along with it. And I think that's concerning and embarrassing for him in particular. But that is like what was driving all of this, right? It's these guys, resentments, these kind of pathetic guys in the Trump White House that can't handle criticism combined with the corruption that we've seen throughout the administration. And you know, to me that is what kind of takes the story from just like just a pathetic, know, embarrassment to something that's really kind of pretty concerning about where we're, the trajectory we're on.

[Katie Couric]

I know that some Democrats are, demanded the resignation of Brendan Carr. Earlier today they accused him of forcing ABC to suspend Jimmy Kimmel's late night show through regulatory threats which we were just talking about. Think any Republicans will grow up here and join them?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I, I don't think so. I mean we haven't seen them on any, on any of these other really issues growing a pair I don't know why this would be the one. You know, look, I think that on this, on this sort of stuff, these guys are unwilling to get crossways with Trump on stuff that's important to Trump. And I think that's the key thing here. Right. You saw Pam, Bonnie, let's just look at that example. Last week, Pam Bondi comes out and says, we're going to go after hate speech following the Charlie Kirk assassination. And you did, you saw a rare little bit of outrage from the right going after Bondi, right, Saying that, no, this isn't right. You know, we're for free speech. People have a right to say what they want. The government shouldn't target them. And then she kind of has to back down. But then Trump goes out there and says, no, no, he endorses that, right? He's like, yeah, we should, she should go after them. Right. And those same people don't go after Trump. Right. Like, and so, you know, they might differentiate from the administration on some niche issue that matters to them. But on stuff that Trump cares about, and this is obviously stuff that Trump cares about, this is what motivates Trump. The revenge tour is why he's in there. They're not going to go get, get on the other side of him. Now. I think we'll see kind of non politicians, like we're already seeing some of the MAGA comedian types speak out against this and podcasters. This is important. You know, free speech is something that's obviously important to them since it's in their wheelhouse. I think we'll see some of that. But from the politicians, no, I think they, they've signed up for this. They're along for the ride now, you.

[Katie Couric]

Know, now he said, I mentioned. I just interviewed Bill Carter, by the way, who's fabulous. I don't know if you know Bill, but he was the longtime media writer for the New York Times and I've known him for a long time. But I read this quote, but let me read it again for you, which I'm sure you heard that after he landed on where Air Force One, what He said, They're 97% against. They give me wholly bad publicity. I mean, they're getting a license. I would think maybe their license should be taken away. And this plays to your full out corruption angle of the story. It's basically, you say not nice things about me. I'm not going to give you your license, which is so outrageous.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And, and he's trying to intimidate. Right. Like that's what this Is like he, he's try, he, he, he did it with the universities, he did it with the law firms. And, and, and now he's going after the networks. And this is, he's testing everybody, right? Like, this is why what, what Iger did is so shameful. I think, in folding, right, is that, you know, I, I, you know, I don't want to be over here saying, you know, call my bluff, but I kind of like feel that way. I kind of feel it's like, call his bluff. Like, really, he's going to pull abc. I don't know how that's going to go over with, you know, regular Trump voters that like watching the Voice or whatever they watch on whatever's on ABC these days, you know, or people that.

[Katie Couric]

Want to watch American Idol, I think.

[Tim Miller]

Which one?

[Katie Couric]

NBC?

[Tim Miller]

NBC. All right, sorry. I get them mixed up. I'm more in my wheelhouse. How about this? SEC football just moved to SEC to abc. You think people really want their local ABC to be taken down? Because downtown man, left, right, Collins blood.

[Katie Couric]

But to your point, I don't think he would do that. He's trying to put a chilling effect on all these people, on newscasters, on showrunners, on anyone that will challenge him. Elaine H. Says NBC is next. Fallon and snl. A lot of my friends have been saying this too. Is he gonna go after Fallon? Is he going to go after Seth Meyers? Is he going to go after snl, which obviously I'm sure he hates with a passion? I mean, where does this stop, Tim?

[Tim Miller]

It's a good question. It doesn't stop till people try to fight it. Like, here's, this is my, this is the thing. Like, you know, there's some of the stuff we're not gonna be able to control, right? Like the local abc, you know, affiliate that wants this merger is gonna do what they want to do, right? Sinclair, those guys that own different stations that are gonna, you know, replace the Jimmy Kimmel show with the ode to Charlie Kirk. As noxious as that is, they, they're right wing conservatives. But if you're snl, if you're the View, if you're one of these other shows, if you're Bob Iger, what you should be doing is saying, okay, sure, take me to court, take my license, let's see it. I know that a lot, a lot of people on the left are like, oh, well, maybe the Supreme Court has gone. All right. I don't know. The Supreme Court still. I think there's pretty, a majority on the Supreme Court for The First Amendment. So you might not like the Supreme Court's views on a bunch of other stuff, but it's like, do what Trump would do to you. Take him, to kick him back to court. Kick the can, you know, run. Run the clock. What the Jimmy Kimmel show? What was going to happen? What was Brendan Carr going to do to the Jimmy Kimmel Show? Nothing like. Nothing like make him do it. All these people. His intimidation tactics only work if people get intimidated. And everybody is getting intimidated. Everybody's getting scared. And I guess my point is I don't know if I'm a migrant on mixed. On an expired green card or something. Sure, I would be scared if I'm a trans person. I think there's good reason to be scared, to be judicious. If you're Bob Iger, what are you scared of? What is this guy gonna do? I mean, you have a hugely diversified business, you know, and I think this is just such cowardice that we're seeing right now. And, like, we're not sure. We might be on a bad trajectory and maybe this ends in urbanism or Putinism or Erdogan, but, like, we're not there yet. Make him do it, you know, don't just hand it to him. Just don't hand the keys to him. That's right.

[Katie Couric]

You know. No, I mean, I reached out to Bob Iger for an interview and not surprisingly, he did get back to me and say he was not making any public comments right now. But, you know, and I was talking to Bill about this, Tim, Bob Iger is revered by so many people and has managed his reputation in an extraordinary way throughout his career. So that's what I think is really interesting, to see if he is going to step up and, and do some things, you know, and so I wanted to ask you about this quote that, that, that I've been seeing on Social and that, Steve, that Jim Rutenberg wrote about this morning in the Times. He wrote President Trump received thunderous applause during her second. During his second inaugural address in January when he vowed to, quote, immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to America. I mean, the irony of this, it's like, free speech is fine as long as it doesn't criticize me. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And I think the interesting question will be where do the people go that went on board with him for that. Right? Like, there was a group of people in Silicon Valley and the Joe Rogan types in this world that a lot of them used to be Democrats. They were radicalized during COVID They did not like the COVID crackdowns. They did not like some of the warnings that started to go on people's YouTube pages. If they said something contrarian about COVID or whatever, said conspiracy stuff. And they went all in on this and Mark Zuckerberg and all these guys said that they were there for free speech. I'm not saying surprised that like the MAGA voters, the red hat folks that go to the rally, they signed up for the vengeance, you know, like they signed up for the culture war. They're happy to see Jimmy Kimmel go down. That's what they, they bought the ticket for that ride, you know, like a lot of the MAGA voters. That was not the case for a lot of people that came to Trump late. You know, your Silicon Valley.

[Katie Couric]

Or anti Kamala. Right, right.

[Tim Miller]

Or anti Kamala. So that is the question. Does he lose ground with those folks? We've seen a little bit of that today. You know, I've seen some mega comedians I follow Tim Dillon, Andrew Schultz speaking out against us, which is encouraging. And so, you know, to me that is the question. Can you rally a broader coalition of people? Not everyone's ever going to turn on him. Who actually did care about this. And I think that we can all roll out. Obviously Fox was never serious about their free speech concerns. It was always partisan positioning. But there were some people out there who were serious and it's time for them to step up.

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[Tim Miller]

Guess is what I'd say.

[Katie Couric]

I think it's wild that Sinclair is going to be running on Friday during the time slot of Jimmy Kimmel Live, the Charlie Kirk tribute special on its ABC affiliates. It's offering the special to all over all other ABC stations across the country. I mean, if you think about Sinclair, I don't know what percentage of the country has Sinclair stations. I one time wanted to do a documentary about Sinclair, but this is so super hard, right? Super. They give them scripts basically to say and they all say the same thing. And I'm just surprised that Bob Iger is fine with this.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, the local news side is what really has me worried. I'm also surprised that Bob Iger's fine with it. And I think it's just these guys just don't want the fight and they're being cowardly. I mean, Barack Obama really called him out about that in an interview recently. He's like, if you are Harvard, if you're one of these rich corporations, like, this is the moment to stand up for yourself before it's too late. The local news thing I think is the most legitimately worrying because there are a lot of people that still just get their news, you know, from whatever the local ABC affiliate, turn it on at 5 o' clock and, and they might not be as plugged into the political debates. Right. To me, that where like I think Jimmy Kimmel will be all right. He'll probably, if he ends up getting canceled, he'll reemerge somewhere and I think that's good. But if this, if you have these local stations that want to do this merger this nextar integna and they have to be nice to Trump to get it, and then you have Sinclair, which is already in the tank for Trump, doing this absurd hagiography of Kirk that that's going to be a huge percentage of the country that's getting their local news from essentially like a, something between Fox and Newsmax style news. And that's pretty, that's pretty alarming to me, I got to say. And I don't know how to roll that back. I mean, really, you know, once that starts happening, you know, I mean, that's just, that's kind of where I guess the corporate media is rolling, you know. And I think that you combine that with some concerns about the social media side of things with some Trump allies buying TikTok, Elon, Onyx, Zuckerberg being pro Trump. Right. You start to look at that picture and it gets pretty, pretty concerning.

[Katie Couric]

My team just said Sinclair owns or operates 185 TV stations in 86 markets. When the company buys the station, its coverage of national politics increases significantly, as does the shift to the right, According to a 2018American political science Review Journal study. And I think you have reason, we all have reason to be concerned about sort of how many of these news stations are turning into basically propaganda tools for far right political figures, including Donald Trump. You know, I was thinking when you were saying Jimmy Kimmel will re emerge and the same with Stephen Colbert, you Know, I'm also wondering if some of these streamers don't share the same concerns about having repercussions for, you know, hosting or housing or platforming somebody like Stephen Colbert or Jimmy Kimmel. You know, they have been very reticent just from everyone I've talked to in the industry to take on projects that are critical of the Trump administration. And, you know, they don't want to get into politics, these streamers. So I'm curious if Stephen Colbert or Jimmy Kimmel, if Jimmy Kimmel ultimately gets canceled, if in fact they'll be able to find a home there.

[Tim Miller]

I think that's a legit thing to worry about too, for sure. And again, we're in a, we're in a brave new world out there now. You know, look, we're doing this on Substack Live and we're on YouTube. Obviously, you know, the YouTube page is not going to be as big as what network terrestrial TV is. But I've heard the same thing from people that are pitching stories and even it's, and it's even more I think of a chill than even just anti Trump stuff. I have friends that are kind of pitching, you know, whatever documentaries or political based stuff to these streamers and they're just kind of like, we don't want to touch it. Like it kind of doesn't even matter actually. It doesn't even really matter if it's like overtly anti Trump. It's just like we'd rather not touch it altogether. And that, that is real. That is like that kind of chill is out there for sure.

[Katie Couric]

I just want to read what Obama said on X today. After years of complaining about cancel culture, the current administration has taken it to a new and dangerous level by routinely threatening regulatory action against media companies unless they muzzle or fire reporters and commentators. It doesn't like, you know, I do have some conservative friends who kind of point to cancel culture and this sort of pendulum swinging the other way. But I mean, this is wholly something new and different. Do you agree?

[Tim Miller]

I totally agree. I wasn't a huge fan of Cancel Culture. I think that it's fair to say we went through a moment where, you know, certain companies were letting kind of like online mobs, their young staff, like, bully, you know, people out of jobs for things that they'd said a long time ago. Like, I think that's a fair thing to be worried about. I think it was a fair thing to complain about back then to try to kind of bring some balance back to that conversation. Conversation. This is not that, like, this isn't the problem here. Isn't that Jimmy Kimmel is getting canceled or whatever. Like, the. That isn't great. Like, the. The issue here, the story here is that the government is pressuring companies to fire him and to stifle his speech in order for them to be able to get stuff, something out of the government, in this case, emergency. Right? Like, that's the issue here. Like, this is not similar to, like, 20 New York Times staffers complaining to the boss that somebody wrote a bad tweet and they want him fired. That wasn't good, by the way. That was not good. The bosses at the Times, when that stuff was happening should have, you know, been more, I think, judicious in some of those places. And I'm not picking on the Times in a bunch of places that happened.

[Katie Couric]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

That's not. That is different. Like, those 20 people, like, their only power was to complain to the boss. Like, this is the head of the FCC who is in charge of licenses. This is the president. This is the vice president. The vice president was on, I think it was Stephen Miller's wife's podcast, actually. And he was saying that people should call if they see others that said something nasty about Charlie Kirk after he died, that they should call the person's employer. And I did a whole thing on Monday at the Bullock where I'm like, I didn't like some of the things I was seeing people say after he was assassinated. I don't think people should do that. The idea that the vice president would tell somebody, you should go rat on someone to their employer and try to get them fired, that is cancel culture coming from the next in line to the presidency. You didn't hear Barack. The example I used is like, Barack Obama didn't go out there after the Trayvon Martin saga and say, if you see somebody say something racist about Trayvon Martin, call their boss. The right would have gone insane if they had said that. And J.D. vance said that the other day, and nobody even, like, there was no peep about it. I drudged to this cut. I said drudged at a big headline. There's a little peep. But most on the right were silent in the face of that.

[Katie Couric]

Why do you think Bill Clinton or George Bush have spoken out at all?

[Tim Miller]

I think that George Bush made a decision a while ago that he wasn't going to speak out on any of this stuff. And I think that it was. I think that he was kind of unhappy that Clinton was kind of speaking out about him when he was president. He didn't want to meddling. Him and Clinton then end up becoming friends. But I think he just made a decision that he didn't think it was his role to meddle as a past president. And I think that was a defensible and principled decision for a while. My personal opinion is that were long past when that was defensible. I think it would have been useful for him to speak out a lot since the 2020 election stuff at the minimum. But I just think that, I just think that's where he's at. I have no idea about Clinton.

[Katie Couric]

Did I ask you about. I know I talked to Bill. Did I ask Tim about Seth Meyers and, and, and Jimmy Fallon? I know that Jimmy canceled an appearance today at an Ad Week event and you know, Comcast and I'm going to be talking to Matthew Dowd. After you, Tim. Yeah, which should be interesting then. We're going to talk about the Epstein files in a second, everybody. But what do you think's going to happen to Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers and I guess we were talking with Bill about snl.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean I think that Jimmy Fallon's been pretty careful for a while now.

[Katie Couric]

I know, but he's actually, I think ever since he was really criticized for tussling Donald Trump's hair during the campaign. I feel like Jimmy has, has just hasn't really pulled a lot of punches when it comes to Donald Trump. Maybe he's not as pointed as Jimmy Kimmel or Stephen Colbert who I think are both brilliant, but he's been pretty critical of Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know. I think that one thing that Brendan Carr said today, I think it was on Scott Jennings show we just posted on the Bulwark was there's this rule and I don't, I might not have the exact name for it. Right, right. Because it's not the fairness doctrine is gone, but it's kind of an equal time rule. Right. Where, where if you're a comedy show, you have to have one. If you have one side on, you have to have the other side on. But you don't have to do that. If you're a news show, there's a news exemption to that and late night shows have had a news exemption and, and CAR has said that they might look into that. And so to me, I just think if you just listen to their own words, if you're the View, if you're Jimmy Fallon, if you're Seth Meyers, that might, that they try to go for you. You know, we'll see kind of how, how the like, suits react to this. And like the reality is that just as circumvent. I said at the beginning, this is all about how the suits react to it. There was no real threat from this government on Jimmy Kimmel. Like, like there was. There was some words said on a podcast by the FCC head and all these guys folded in six hours. And it's truly embarrassing and shameful. So I, and I think that like the threat to Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers is equal to the threat that their bosses will allow is the truth about it.

[Katie Couric]

They're not a lot of Scott Jennings fans on this conversation.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no. Well, can I just say I'm not a daily listener of the Scott Jennings podcast. We pay some, some, some 24 year olds hazard pay. Shout out. Brendan and Jared and those guys, they're getting hazard pay.

[Katie Couric]

So Tim doesn't have to.

[Tim Miller]

Can I rant about one other thing on this? Do you mind? Can I be the host of the show for a second?

[Katie Couric]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Because this is my current obsession of the moment. The premise of the Jimmy Kimmel thing, just like their complaint, if you take it at face value, was that he spread a false, like, narrative about that shooter. That the narrative was maga. The shooter was maga. If you look at the joke, like he actually wasn't really saying that. Like, he was saying that MAGA was doing everything they can to like use this for political advantage. But like, okay, like, if you take it face value, their concern was about accuracy when it comes to discussing this assassination. I just think it's so noteworthy that everybody's been dialed in on that. When the vice president. This was another thing that our guys Brendan and Jared found. The vice president was on Fox yesterday and he said this. I just want to pull it up. He said, maybe the FBI should have been investigating the networks that motivated, inspired, and maybe even funded Charlie Kirk's murder. Now that is a total fabrication. The vice president just created this total fake news story that he put out there that there's some evil liberal network that motivated, inspired, and maybe funded this guy. This just obviously deranged young man in Utah who was like living in an apartment in a small town in Utah with his trans girlfriend. I don't know where all his money was going. If they're like. But the fact that the vice President would spread a conspiracy. Conspiracy theory like that, and nobody even, it just, nobody even talks about it because we're so used to their conspiracy theories. I just think it shows the asymmetry in all this. And like you could not imagine that in the past. You could not imagine like after the Oklahoma City bombing, like Al Gore going out there and being like, this was a secret right wing cabal that was funding it. It was George Bush, you know, and that's what's happening now. The Vice President is just advancing that craziness. And I just, anyway, I'm using every platform possible to rant about this in the hopes that other people start talking about his lies.

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[Katie Couric]

It's, it's, it is outrageous that he did it. And by the way, anyone who wants to know the quote that Jimmy Kimmel said, I'm just going to repeat it. Oh yeah, because I think it's important. On Monday, he said the following. We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it. In between the finger pointing, there was grieving. On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half staff, which got some criticism. He then threw to a clip of Donald Trump who was asked, how are you doing after the death of your, you know, the assassination of your good friend? I'm paraphrasing. Donald Trump said we're doing good and started talking about the ballroom, the construction of the White House ballroom. It was very bizarre, honestly. And Jimmy Kimmel said he was in the fourth stage of grief, which is construction, which follows demolition. It was a pretty good joke because honestly, it was so bizarre that Donald Trump didn't answer the question in any kind of human, well, human, but also like rational, kind of like responsive way. I mean, he just ignored it. But anyway, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think that, that ABC is going to, you know, they said he's been suspended indefinitely. Do you think that they're going to cancel him? Can you see any world where ABC will suddenly have a change of Heart and say enough is enough. What do you think, Tim?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I think that they hopefully are getting pushback and should, and folks, you know, everyone should be reaching out to them via Disney plus subscription or whatever. But I don't, I think it's hard to see him come back, you know, a lot again because of this bottom up. Like ABC's pressure now is going to come from, like, even if they put them back on, wouldn't those next star stations put them on now? They still, they still want to get that merger, I would guess probably not. Would Sinclair put them back on? I would say almost certainly not. So that's, I think next jar was like 20 something, you know, together that, that's like a third of the stations, give or take. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but so now if you're, if you're abc, you got to bring them back and then even then like a third of your affiliates aren't going to air them. So if you're Jimmy, what would you do?

[Katie Couric]

Yeah, well, Bill Carter said, you know, ABC can put him on Hulu and put him on Disney. And if the stations don't want to run him, they, you know, Bill even went as far to say to me, hey. They could also say, hey, you don't want to run Jimmy Kimmel. Guess what, you can't run the NFL football games, right?

[Tim Miller]

No, no, that's true. But would Jimmy, like, could you see Bob Iger doing that after his behavior this week? That's hard for me to imagine. Would Jimmy want to do that? Like, you know, after all this? If you're Jimmy, he's made a lot of money.

[Katie Couric]

That's what I said to, to Bill Carter. Like, if they say, you know, I don't know, will, will Jimmy want to do it? I wish I could talk to Jimmy Kimmel. I reached out to Howard Stern to see if he'd do an interview and I haven't heard back from him because he's such a close friend of Jimmy Kimmel's. But I don't know. What a, what a crazy up country we're living in right now.

[Tim Miller]

It's been a weird week, Katie. I don't know. And on a long list of weird, strange, screwed up weeks, it's been, I.

[Katie Couric]

Was gonna say it's been a weird nine months, hasn't it?

[Tim Miller]

Extremely, extremely. I don't know. I was talking on our, on the board today and somebody mentioned that it was a year. We were like, it was one year ago that we're doing the Haitians, they're eating the dogs and eating the cats. And I was kind of like, that was only a year ago. I mean, I. I feel like I've aged. I've lived three lifetimes since that. So, you know, this is just kind of the world. Yeah.

[Katie Couric]

Before we go, I have to ask you because a lot of people watching this are asking about the Epstein files. It always comes back to that. By the way, did you see how they projected all those episodes Epstein videos on, on what was it on Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle visit, which I thought was a stroke of genius, but you know, people haven't forgotten about them. Someone's saying release the files in all caps. So. So where are we with that?

[Tim Miller]

Do you know, I thought that the Cash Patel hearing on this, I watched the Senate when I didn't watch the House one. So just caveating. Maybe he expanded on this answer, but in the Senate hearing he was pressed, actually by my senator from Louisiana, John Kennedy, who's been mostly a clown recently, but in this case he was pressing him on this issue. And Cash essentially says, I don't have to go in front of me, but essentially says, I've read some of the files, not all of them. And there's no other co conspirators. He's not saying that they didn't have co conspirators. He's just saying the evidence that he has. There's no other co conspirators besides Epstein and Maxwell. And like that is just so unbelievable. Right? Like it is so preposterous. And we obviously, we know from listening to the women who've spoken to FBI officials over the years that at least other people have been accused of wrongdoing. Like, we know that because we've heard from women who said that. And so it's a straight cover up. I don't know that we will learn a lot more until and unless the Dems are back in charge of the House. And this was something I was asking Hakeem Jeffries on. And then the question becomes, do they spend time on this and care about it? But, but to me it's like, well, once she gets his peanut power back, you can start subpoenaing not just Cash Patel who's gonna lie to you, but like the other FBI officials who are reviewing the files and like talking to them about it. You know, who knows, maybe they all plead the Fifth and all this. But I think that, I don't think the story's going away anytime soon, I guess is my short answer.

[Katie Couric]

Hey, I know Matthew Dowd's waiting in the wings. But Tim, what's the latest on redistricting? You know, I saw Arnold Schwarzenegger. God, how does, how do we keep up with this news? Arnold Schwarzenegger spoke out against California redistricting and other states are talking about it. I don't really know the status of various states at this, at the, on the top of my head. But how are we, how are we looking at that right now?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, look, Arnold, who I love and his defense on this, this has been his issue for a long time and I think maybe he's not updating to the reality of the situation we're in. And so just to his credit, I think he's been a long time opponent of partisan gerrymandering, which in a vacuum is the right place to be. Unfortunately, we're just not in that world right now. So, you know, this is going to go to the ballot in California. All evidence I have is that I think California voters will support the new maps. The California map changes will basically even out the Texas changes. I think the Republicans are going to try to squeeze out some other, some other seats.

[Katie Couric]

Indiana. Isn't Indiana redistricting?

[Tim Miller]

Indiana, Missouri, maybe Florida, Ohio. Democrats can probably squeeze out another seat out of Maryland. My guess is if you just at the end of this whole process, what we'll have is less fair maps. The Republicans will probably have four or five seats more than they would have that are favorable to them. It doesn't mean that they win all of them. Right. But like four or five more seats that are favorable to them than they would have before this fight that started.

[Katie Couric]

The Democrats will.

[Tim Miller]

No, the Republicans will.

[Katie Couric]

The Republicans.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Yeah. Because there are just more states out there that have, unfortunately for the Democrats, a lot of the gerrymandered states that hurt them are like purple states like North Carolina or Wisconsin where it's mixed. You know, where Republicans are in charge of some parts of it and Democrats are in charge of others. And so those states aren't going to redistrict. Right. Like north, the North Carolina map is really unfair to Democrats and they have a Democratic governor, but they have a Republican legislature. So that's not going to change. You know, the Republicans have more of these states where they control all of it and can change the maps. So I will see how it actually turns out. But I just think that if you look at the field, California and Texas end up evening out and then it's these other Republican states, you'll see how many more they can get out of them.

[Katie Couric]

So you think it's going to work. This whole plan to do mid decade redistricting is actually going to favor Donald Trump and the Republicans in the midterm.

[Tim Miller]

I do, I do. And I think it will work. Yeah. I also think that it's going to be a really ugly midterm for him, most likely. Look, we just talked about how long this nine months is. It's a long 13, 14 months or whatever until we get to the midterms. So I think there'll be a lot of motivation on the left. So there's like, there'll be a little bit of a backlash in some of this. Right. I think that the left, the Democratic voters are going to be much more motivated to turn out than Republican voters, which is kind of the name of the game in midterms. So. Yeah. But, you know, if you want to be. If you want to be sad, if you want to be depressing about it, then, yeah, you can summarize it. I think it's going to work. It might not work as well as they had hoped, but it's going to work.

[Katie Couric]

Okay. That sucks that you just told me that. I apologize and that's a good way to say bye.

[Tim Miller]

Bye. Sorry. I'm sorry if you booked me. All right. Did you expect me to be like, things are great, Katie. Everything's looking sunshine and rainbows. We'll see you.

[Katie Couric]

Love you, Tim.