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- [00:00]
Tim Miller
Hey, y' all, Tim Miller from the Bulwark here. I just got off with Nicole Wallace and we were talking about this New York Times story from this morning that is just unbelievable. And the details about what has been going on in Elon Musk's personal life as he has been the deputy shadow president. I mean, if even an iota of what is in the New York Times is true, it is just really alarming about the mindset of the person who was as powerful and influential as anyone in the world over the first three months of this year. The idea that it's possible that he was taking so much ketamine that he lost control of his bladder. I mean, that's gotta be a wake up call. You know, anytime you're doing enough drugs that you pee your pants. Okay, that should be the moment that you start to think, maybe I should dial it back a little bit. We also talk about Taco and the tariff regime, and it was good. It's a long hour I got to spend with her over on MSNBC here in my hotel in Nashville. It's great to see many people out here in Nashville supporting the Bulwark. We appreciate you all very much. Stick around for me and Nicole and some Elon talk.
- [01:04]
Nicole Wallace
Tim, I'm going to start with you because I know this is economic in nature and is about trade, but it's really about Donald Trump and the absolute tsunami of baloney that comes from his mouth. 90 deals in 90 days is in the same vein as Mexico's going to pay for the wall. There are no deals. There is one framework, and in the words of Scott Besant, one stalled conversation that has commenced with China. That is it.
- [01:35]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Can you have a bologna Taco? That doesn't sound very good. I was trying to mix our food metaphors with the Trump trade deals. Look, here's the thing about all this. It's all been bluster and fake from the start, right? And the question was, how much of this was he going to be allowed to do by the courts? How crazy was the advisors around him going to let him get? How bad were they going to let the bond market get? But it is the whole Trump M.O. on this, as you mentioned, it is how he was as a businessman. It's exactly the same thing that we're seeing in the Russia, Ukraine negotiations. I was just listening to you talk about how we had 90 nails in 90 days. Then it's going to be a few days and a few more days. It's the same thing as the Russia, Ukraine. He keeps Saying it's gonna be two weeks. It's all been two weeks in two weeks. He's been saying two weeks for three months. So that is just the reality of this. It's chaotic leadership. He has a direction that he wants to go, which is he wants people to come in and ask for him for favors, and he wants to feel powerful, and the tariff card allows him to do that, but there's no actual plan here. And I was mostly struck by listening to Besant over on Fox. And it's like, the Chinese will come to the table, he said. I think when Trump lets his priorities be known, it's like, what have we been doing so far? The Chinese don't know what Trump's priorities are. I thought we had a deal with the Chinese. It's all smoke and mirrors because they can't make any deals because the courts may not allow it, and they don't know what the boss wants day to day.
- [03:10]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Tim, I'm not good at the acronyms or the letters, but we need something for. So dumb it hurts. I mean, what is the point at this point? Trump's base will go along with anything. If he came out and said, never mind, I love tariffs so much, but I don't know. Everyone's too dumb to do what I'm so smart to know is the right thing, we'll try something else. What keeps him on this road, which will only further erode his approval ratings, putting him farther and farther away from his own electorate, which will make it increasingly easier for Republicans, as their own elections near and they contemplate losing their seats, to speak out and tell the truth about a whole host of things which distances him from the people that he used to, at one point, care about. And that are the people like Jamie Dimon.
- [04:02]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's a good question. I think it's a combination of things. One of them is stubbornness. Right. He doesn't want to have to admit failure or defeat. I mean, he could try to spin it. Right. It's not that this is something we've seen in the past from him. So I don't think that's the only thing, but I think it's certainly part of it. I think the second part is what I mentioned earlier. Likes the power of the tariffs. He likes that Tim Cook has to come to the White House and ask him to grant him an exception when it comes to cell phones. He likes that element of the tariff regime, I think, for sure. And I do think that this is. You referenced Art of the Deal earlier I didn't know you were a reader of that book, Nicole, but I read it. This is one of the issues that he's been consistent on very few since way back then in the 80s, the foreigners are screwing us. Back then it was Japan. Japan is screwing us. That didn't really bear out in the ensuing 20 years that Japan had a great economic advantage over us, but somehow he just transitioned that into China being the boogeyman that is taking advantage of us. I think that confluence of things is why he is still stubbornly sticking with this, at least to a degree, maybe a little less than he was a month ago.
- [05:19]
Nicole Wallace
Tim, just quickly, before we go to break, I mean, the power of the small business owner and you know, the anxieties of the small business owner is one of the most powerful and potent forces in our politics. And it especially is the case with independent and swing voters because for all the reasons Murray is articulating, they are the most sensitive to economic dips. You don't have to be in a recession for a small business owner to get wiped out. It can just be a diplomatic that affects whatever product or products or whatever distribution they have. Why isn't there more political alarm for Republicans who represent small business owners?
- [05:59]
Tim Miller
You know, this is a good question. I think I've mentioned on the show before, I talk to somebody in New Orleans who owns this kind of a chachki shop for tourists, Right. And a lot of the materials there is from China, not all of it. And when the tariffs were 145, she was telling me that, you know, her business is going to go under. Like the business can't now that it's at 30. I checked back in with her and basically the feedback is I still don't know what to do. It takes a long time to get this stuff across the ocean. And what happens if he has a tantrum and it goes back up to 80 by the time it comes to the port? Then I have to pay it. Then we're going to go under again. I think there are a lot of individual small businesses that are going through situations like that. I think that part of the reason why there isn't more political alarm is that all just takes time to filter through. And I think that right now, Republicans are still caught in this place where the thing they're the most scared of is getting on the wrong side of their own voters who want them to be loyal to Trump. Polls continue to show that right now. And so that is their highest and best purpose. I'm not excusing it Obviously, I find it gross, but I think that's just the political reality of Republicans on the Hill. And I think until, you know, I think the pain has to be ratcheted up more, I guess, is my point on the small businesses before that calculation starts to change. But I, I think it's a real, real risk as we look to the months ahead.
- [07:23]
Stephen Miller
The president is the sole head of the executive branch. He's the only officer in the entire government that's elected by the entire American people. Democracy cannot function. In fact, democracy does not exist at all if each action the president takes, foreign policy, diplomatic, military, national security, has to be individually approved by 700 district court judges. That's democracy. So there's 15 communist crazy judges on the court that each of them as a team working together can block and freeze each and every executive action. Joe Biden was allowed by that same court system.
- [07:57]
Nicole Wallace
Some of them are Trump judges. Why did Trump put these crazy communist judges, as you call them, on the.
- [08:03]
Stephen Miller
You heard, you heard, you heard President Trump himself say that the Federal Society and Leonard Leo has created a broken system for judicial vetting.
- [08:14]
Nicole Wallace
To be a fly on Leonard Leo's wall today. Who's going to auction that off and put that money toward all the programs killed by usaid? Tim Miller, let's unpack this for a second. There's a point where Stephen Miller says that's democracy and he means it with a question mark. But it's actually, that's democracy with a period. And the judges include a lot of judges appointed by Republicans. I mean, as many Republican appointed judges have deemed illegal Trump's moves as judges appointed by anybody else. This is a serious escalation in their attack and their war on the judges. What does it say to you?
- [08:58]
Tim Miller
It is. I'm happy you mentioned that because I was going to say it too. At some level, it's like, should we even take seriously this administration's comments on democracy and they're pretending to care about democracy when they literally tried to overturn the election in 2020. We shouldn't. But I think it's an important exercise, though, to just say specifically what we are talking about. Because liberal democracy, not liberal like left versus right, but liberal democracy, the system of government that has governed the west, that has governed America since our founding, is based on, yes, the votes of the people, but also the rule of law, also checks and balances. I mean, Stephen Miller knows this, but it's just important to say it clearly. This is the system that undergirds the Constitution, that has allowed America to Thrive over since its founding. So I do think that's important. They're trying to cheat and do this thing where they're like, oh, democracy means that since Donald Trump got elected president, he can do whatever he wants because the people elected him. And for folks who aren't that schooled in it or who have an interest in that being the case, I can think that could be a compelling argument. But that isn't true. And they're doing it in a very pernicious way in order to do things illegally, attack the judiciary and essentially try to turn Donald Trump into kind of a soft autocrat in the model of what we see from Orban or Erdogan or some in other countries around the world.
- [10:30]
Nicole Wallace
Back with Tim Miller. I mean, Megan's an incredible reporter and I feel like I was hearing for the first time that SpaceX gave him advanced warning before they were doing drug testing. This feels like a tip above the water with a whole lot more story underneath the surface.
- [10:47]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it was truly a remarkable story that I devoured immediately this morning. And it was interesting to hear a couple of layer, additional layers there for Megan. So kudos to her on the reporting, I guess. I have two thoughts about this. One is kind of comedy and one is pretty tragedy. More like tragedy. The comedy is like, I have pretty libertine views when it comes to people's personal lives and what they want to do. If you're using so much ketamine that you have bladder control issues, it might be time for a lifestyle change. It might be a time to consider yoga or something else. So that is true, what she's reporting. That's way too much ketamine. I think we can just leave it at that. The tragedy part of this is this, is that this guy, whatever the details are true. It's a total megalomaniac. He's the richest man in the world. You've seen his power and influence. He could have used it for anything. He could use it for good. There are obviously areas where he has real expertise, particularly when it comes to some of the stuff around what SpaceX has done that other companies have been able to do. The fact that he used all of this power and influence to be the tip of the spear on just horrific gutting of aid for the poorest and most vulnerable people from throughout the world. A type of aid that we, that at a bipartisan level, both Republican and Democratic administrations for our whole lives have been committed to. And the fact that this guy gets in there with his pillbox allegedly and decides that like the thing to do is, you know, is slash and gut and eliminate this critical medical aid, this critical food aid, and support for the most vulnerable people all the way throughout the world. That is the thing that just really makes you sad and angry at the same time.
- [12:50]
Nicole Wallace
What's interesting is that a lot of the reporting and Megan described it sitting here comes from people who are, who are not his critics. People not like you and me, but people who were his friends. Let me read that to you. As Musk jumped into the political arena, some people who knew him worried about his frequent drug use, mood swings, and fixation on having more children. This account of his behavior is based on private messages obtained by the New York Times, as well as interviews with more than a dozen people who've known or worked with him. Quote, elon has pushed the boundaries of his bad behavior more and more, said Philip Lowe, a neuroscientist and one time friend of Musk's, who criticized him for his Nazi like gesture at a rally. In a January newsletter explaining where their friendship ended, Sam Harris, a public intellectual, wrote that Musk had used his social media platform to defame people and promote lies. Quote, there's something seriously wrong with his moral compass, if not his perception of reality, Dr. Harris wrote. Tim, you get the last word well.
- [13:50]
Tim Miller
Before the break you quoted from Sam Harris. And I had him on the podcast after he wrote that substack post about his friendship with Elon and how it fell ap. And his main point is something that we can all see. It's just like regardless of what he's doing recreationally, the posts that he's putting out there on his social media feed that he's forcing everybody to see through their for you page are totally unhinged. And so he either is knowingly spreading all of these lies, or he has lost touch with reality to such a degree that he can't tell truth from fiction. I mean, he is reposting the craziest people on the Internet and the most malicious. And so that behavior is unacceptable regardless of what is underlying it. And we were able to all see that without the really impressive reporting for the New York Times. And I think that goes to show you just how irresponsible he was during his short tenure in the White House.
- [14:44]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, it's what's public facing that's the story. The reporting is just something that we now have learned underneath. Tim Miller, thank you so much for spending the whole hour with us. We love it when you do that.