Tim Miller: Thune May Be the Weakest Senate Leader EVER

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Tim Miller: Thune May Be the Weakest Senate Leader EVER"

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Host(s): The Bulwark Team (Tim Miller, Tim O'Brien, others)
Date: September 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the ongoing political fallout from the emergence of a birthday note allegedly signed by Donald Trump and sent to Jeffrey Epstein. Tim Miller, joined by Tim O'Brien and others, reflects on the GOP's limp response to the scandal, the performative defenses of Trump by Republican Senate leaders, and the troubling culture of deference within the party. The overarching critique: a Senate leadership so lacking in backbone, particularly John Thune, that it stands as the weakest in modern history.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Pathetic State of GOP Senate Leadership

(00:26–02:58)

• Tim Miller launches into a scathing assessment of Republican Senate leaders.
  • He calls John Thune “the most limp, weak, non entity in the history of the United States Senate,” describing him as “a little Hufflepuff,” “a husk of himself,” and “a fake tanned scarecrow.”

    “He might as well not even exist.” — Tim Miller (00:57)

  • Offers equally dismissive takes on John Barrasso (“a zero from Wyoming”), John Cornyn (so weak, “he's being primaried in his own state”), and James Langford (at least tried to lead a bipartisan immigration deal, but has “no power”).
  • Points out the Senate leaders essentially “won't do anything,” characterizing their posturing as pure performative politics.
  • Miller’s solution: these senators should “just sit in your office and play Sudoku” rather than pretend to act. (02:19)

2. Republican Responses to Trump’s “Signature Gate”

(03:00–04:46)

• The hosts dissect the absurd denials from GOP lawmakers regarding whether Trump sent a birthday card to Epstein, despite mounting evidence and signature analysis.
  • Republicans offer flimsy excuses (“anyone can do a signature,” “someone could have forged this”), denying the obvious.
  • Wide consensus in the panel and by news outlets (NYT, NBC) that the signature is legitimate.
• Host clarifies Trump is “doubling down, denying he signed” the letter and calling Epstein “a dead issue,” while the panel stresses the ongoing pain for Epstein’s victims.

3. The Nature of Trump’s Defense and GOP Loyalty

(05:35–06:56)

• Tim O’Brien offers a reality check about the relationship:
  • “They were friends. They're more than friends, they’re close associates.” (05:40)
  • References credible testimony of Trump and Epstein’s closeness and evidence from prior events.
  • Muses on Trump’s illogical defense and suggests the consistent lying is a way to preempt the revelation of more damaging facts.

  • “To give this bald-faced lie ... indicates somebody that knows he’s guilty, knows there’s more information in there.” — Tim O'Brien (06:21)

4. The MAGA Loyalty Paradox and GOP’s Moral Bankruptcy

(06:56–09:41)

• Hosts examine the psychology and motivations for why even this scandal won't break Trump’s grip on the GOP.
  • The “financial shell game” around Epstein is noted, but the true issue is the abuse of young girls under a culture of impunity.
  • The refusal of Republican leaders to separate from Trump is framed as a “humiliation ritual”; Miller suggests Trump derives power from getting allies to defend indefensible acts:

    “You're going to go out and lie for me ... You're going to tell the most preposterous lie imaginable ... to protect me from my relationship with... the country's probably most notorious child sex trafficker.” — Tim Miller (09:14)

  • There’s acknowledgment that MAGA loyalty has been a rational political bet for GOP members, citing the lack of consequences for aligning with Trump.
  • The shame is intellectualized as part of a deliberate power play rather than true ideological conviction.

5. John Thune’s Leadership Vacuum

(09:41–11:30)

• A new dissection of John Thune’s lack of leadership in the epilogue of the scandal:
  • Clip played of Thune giving an evasive “transparency and trust DOJ” statement. (10:00–10:36)
  • Tim O'Brien is flabbergasted, even forgetting Thune’s status as Senate Majority Leader because he’s so invisible.
  • The group jokes about Thune being perpetually tanned and ineffective, with one panelist quipping he looks like he’s at a “hostage press conference.” (10:58)
  • Thune’s statements are characterized as empty, word-game posturing, conveying zero risk-taking or independence from Trump.

  • “John Thune, I think, is just trying to survive another day without the MAGA guillotine.” — Tim O'Brien (11:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Thune’s weakness:
  • “At least in my lifetime... we have never [had Senate leaders like this]. Mitch McConnell, Harry Reid... the power broker himself, LBJ in this job. And John Thune is just, I mean, he's like nothing.” — Tim Miller (00:46)
• On Republican inaction:
  • “None of y’all are gonna do shit.” — Tim Miller (02:17)
• On playing games in the office:
  • “Just sit in your office, play Sudoku, read, listen to some like World War II history podcasts... Just don't do, don't pretend like you're gonna do something. You're not gonna do anything.” — Tim Miller (02:20)
• On the ritualistic humiliation demanded by Trump:
  • “You're going to go out and lie for me...to protect me from my relationship with the country's probably most notorious child sex trafficker.” — Tim Miller (09:14)
• On Thune’s avoidance:
  • “John Thune, I think, is just trying to, you know, survive another day without the MAGA guillotine.” — Tim O'Brien (11:26)
• On the party’s incentives:
  • “They haven’t lost yet by putting their lips on Trump’s behind.” — Tim O'Brien (08:46)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:26–00:57: Tim Miller lampoons Senate leadership for their “pathetic” response
• 02:11–02:19: Direct dismissal of any GOP action: “None of y’all are gonna do shit.”
• 03:00–03:35: Hosts dissect Republican attempts to dismiss the Trump-Epstein note
• 05:35–06:56: Tim O’Brien’s reality check on Trump–Epstein relationship and lying
• 09:41–10:36: John Thune’s evasive ‘transparency’ statement played and dissected
• 10:58–11:30: Panel mocks Thune as invisible and hostage-like in his leadership role

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Tone and Language

Consistently biting, sarcastic, and frustrated but leavened with humor (especially at the expense of GOP leaders). The language is informal, direct, and irreverent, calling out what the hosts see as the cowardice and absurdity of Senate Republicans and the broader Republican party in maintaining fealty to Donald Trump—even as the Epstein revelations inflict further damage to American politics.

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Final Takeaway

This episode labels John Thune as potentially “the weakest Senate leader ever,” skewering the GOP’s performative loyalty to Trump and their unwillingness to confront scandal, even in the face of rock-solid evidence. With sharp wit and undisguised exasperation, the Bulwark crew expresses deep concern over the moral and institutional decay on display. For listeners or readers new to this story, the podcast clearly lays out both the facts of the scandal and the pathetic political game being played by Republican leaders.

Transcript

[Tim O'Brien]

Hey, y'.

[Tim Miller]

All.

[Tim O'Brien]

I just got off the Weeknight with Simone Sanders, Michael Steele, Alicia Menendez, Tim o'.

[Tim Miller]

Brien. Really a murderous row we were talking about. I bet you could guess, guess. Just really quick, think of your mind. What do you think we were talking about? Yeah, that's right, Epstein. Y' all got it right. We were talking about Epstein and Trump's lies and the fucking signature gate and all that stupid shit. So there's a bunch on that coming up next. So stick around for that. Subscribe to the feed.

[Tim O'Brien]

I kind of, I took us on.

[Tim Miller]

A little side path because they, they played a clip of John Thune talking about it for me and I was looking at the pick and the thing that just struck me was just how fucking limp these Republican senators are. How pathetic. This Republican Senate leadership has got to be the most limp, weak, non entity in the history of the United States Senate. Maybe not in the history. I don't know. I can't, I couldn't do a deep dive with you, if I'm being honest, on the 1880s Senate leadership. But at least in my lifetime, I mean, we have never. Mitch McConnell, Harry Reid, I mean, like we've had just these real power brokers, the power broker himself, LBJ in this job. And John Thune is just, I mean, he's like nothing. He's a little Hufflepuff and he's just, he's a husk of himself. He's just like a fake tanned scarecrow and he might as well not even exist. And he's got behind him like John Barrasso, who is a zero from Wyoming. He'll do anything Trump tells him to. Every once in a while he'll like dip out. Which was it? There's a hearing. Oh, it's the RFK hearing. He has some concerns. Oh yeah, I'm sure John Barrasso, I'm sure you're really going to lay down the law behind that. You have John Cornyn, who's so weak he's being primaried in his own state right now. Then you have James Langford in Oklahoma. Gotta shout out James Langford, who at least had the balls to try to do the bipartisan immigration deal last year. But like he has no power. Donald Trump didn't care what he thinks.

[Tim O'Brien]

So that's it.

[Tim Miller]

Those, those four guys are standing there talking about how, oh well, they, they'll.

[Tim O'Brien]

See how things go. They're for transparency, but they trust the doj. None of y' all are gonna do shit.

[Tim Miller]

None of y' all to do shit.

[Tim O'Brien]

Have the self respect to just sit.

[Tim Miller]

In your office and play Snake on your phone. That's a dated reference, Tim, you know, I don't know. Sit in your office. I don't play phone video games. What's a good phone video game? Play Sudoku. Just sit in your office, play Sudoku, read, listen to some like World War II history podcasts, you know, listen to drunk history. Just don't do, don't pretend like you're gonna do something. You're not gonna do anything. I'm a little grumpy tonight anyway. Stick around. I was grumpy, but I was punchy, so, you know, it'll be worth your time.

[Tim O'Brien]

And subscribe to the feed.

[Tim Miller]

I'll see you back here soon.

[Host/Moderator]

We're gonna begin tonight with Congressional Republicans asking Americans to deny what they see with their own eyes. After Democrats on the House Oversight Committee released a copy of the birthday note Donald Trump. Donald Trump allegedly sent to Jeffrey Epstein. Republican lawmakers are insisting it's not Trump's signature on the loot note.

[Guest Commentator 1]

Well, I don't know. I mean, anybody can do a signature. I think really someone might have just forged this somehow and said, yeah, I mean, somehow it's so easy to do.

[Host/Moderator]

From what I see, it's not a signature. I've seen Donald Trump sign a million things.

[Guest Commentator 2]

This doesn't look like his signature to you?

[Host/Moderator]

Nope.

[Guest Commentator 1]

I highly doubt that it is. Really. I mean, how could someone could have forged this? Well, are we talking about, are we talking about the birthday card letter? The letter Trump, apparently. Oh, you know, I would, you know, that's new for me. I've not seen that.

[Host/Moderator]

We'll let other people decide whether it's real or not. But Trump's signature in letters to George Conway and our own Lawrence O' Donnell Show. Striking similarities to the 2003 birthday note provided to the oversight committee by the Epstein estate. Other outlets like the New York Times have examined several letters not independently reviewed by NBC News, but they reached the same conclusions. But Trump continues to double down, denying he signed or drew the letter and telling NBC News that Epstein is, quote, a dead issue. Folks, the survivors of Epstein's abuse who are still seeking justice and accountability, well, they would disagree. Joining us now is MSNBC political analyst and senior executive editor of Bloomberg Opinion, Tim o' Brien and host of the Bulwark podcast, our friend Tim Miller. He's also an MSNBC political analyst.

[Guest Commentator 2]

Well, look, the reality here is, Tim, this is not a. All the Tim's, actually. Tim Miller, Tim o', Brien, all the Tims. Well, this is the reality here, Tim Miller, is that this issue is not dead. It is in fact defining. That is the D word he is looking for. It is defining for Donald Trump. And I'm not saying folks are going to maga, Republicans are running away from him, from him in droves. But this is a point of contention. You know how I know? Cuz Donald Trump himself keeps talking about it and the story keeps changing and I frankly think it's a bunch of stuff that I can't say on this family show that people actually spent their time today and yesterday evening arguing about his signature. It's the man's signature. Let's go to the root of the issue here.

[Tim O'Brien]

Yeah, I mean, do we really need to have handwriting experts out here? Like this is just like we're all, this is silly, like we're into silliness time. It's obviously a signature. They were friends. They're more than friends, they're close associates. We have testimony from multiple of Epstein's victims that they were brought to Donald Trump's office at Trump Tower. They hung out together in South Florida. Remember there was the one Calendar Girl party we just learned about where Jeffrey Epstein was the only man invited to it. So look, these guys were this close. They obviously, you know, this is obviously the letter. The question is what else is out there, right? Like why would you make this preposterous defense? You know, like if Trump was really innocent here, right. You could imagine a more believable defense. Something that's like, hey, you know, I signed a bunch of stuff back then. Jolene sent me this thing, I was like, whatever, you know, I was building buildings, I was busy. Like I signed it, I guess we were friends. And when I found out he was a bad guy, we stopped being right. You could give an excuse like that to give this bald faced lie to make his supporters go around and try to tell people they can't believe. Their lying eyes to me indicates somebody that is, that knows he's guilty, knows there's more information in there, in those files and, and he feels like the only way out is to do what he's done so many times before, which is to give a big lie and hope that his, his followers go along with it.

[Host/Moderator]

Mr. Miller, I picking up where Tim just left off. The financial shell game. Yes, it is. It is a financial shell game with a pedophile. All right, because you can't drop that piece off the table. At the end of the day, we follow the money. But at the core of this is how young girls were abused by grown men. In a universe curated by Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And whether directly or indirectly, Donald Trump was in it, he touched it, he was a part of it. And so it's fascinating to me that in the face of all of that seemingly, there is nothing that will apparently separate the lips of certain Republicans from the behind of Donald Trump. And they will always find a way to excuse the most outrageous behavior because they don't want to be on the wrong side. I take note of an article regarding Trump and Johnson noting many in the party have spent years suggesting there's a massive cover up aimed at protecting Epstein's associates from PR and legal fallout. But opposing Trump, especially on a potent issue, is always a risky proposition for Republican elected officials. Just ask the Republicans who voted to impeach him in 2021. That was 2021. Impeachment is not tagged to pedophilia. So when you have this new element, it changes the conversation for a lot of Americans. And apparently it has changed the conversation for a number of folks in the Magaverse. What say you, my friend, about this seemingly inability to separate, even on this, for a number of Republicans?

[Tim O'Brien]

Well, look, these guys, you know, they haven't lost yet by putting their lips on Trump's behind, right? And if they're still in Congress, that's been a safe bet for them, right? Trump has worked for them so far, so why not? So why do something different? There's. I mean, it's shameful, but there is a logic to it, right? From the Trump side, he likes the. I almost think that Trump is laughing at them, right? Like there's a humiliation ritual element to this. It's how you gain power, you know, it's how you ensure that they'll do your bidding to be. Like, you're going to go out and lie for me. You're not just going to lie for me. You're going to tell the most preposterous lie imaginable to protect, you know, to protect me from my relationship with the country's probably most notorious child sex trafficker. Like that's what you're gonna do. You're gonna go have to go out there and humiliate yourself and embarrass yourself in my defense, and that's how I keep you in my good graces. So I think it's kind of as simple as that. I wish it was more complicated.

[Interviewer]

Let's talk about the Senate Majority Leader because he is starting to think about what is gonna happen if this discharge petition actually makes it out of the House, you have Masi and Khanna saying they have the votes to get it done. Take a listen to what John Thune said about what's gonna happen if this heads to the Senate.

[John Thune]

I can't comment on that at this point. I guess the House is having a conversation about that. What I can tell you is, and I think this is my position, my colleagues can speak for themselves, but I believe that transparency is always best, and you should get as much information out there as you possibly can in a way that obviously protects the rights of the victims. The Department of Justice has already released tons of files related to this matter. And in my view, I trust them in terms of having a confidence that they'll get as much information out there as possible in a way that protects the rights of the victims.

[Interviewer]

Let's be real honest. Tim Miller. The documents that they've shared were largely already public. They didn't give us a ton of insight into things that the House or people who've observed this know. And John Thune knows that, right? This is like the longest game of hot potato I've ever seen.

[Tim O'Brien]

I just. I kind of forgot that John Thune was the Senate Majority Leader for a little while. Where has he been? He's got a nice tan.

[Guest Commentator 2]

I know, right? Honey, he looked like he was on a hostage press conference. What has he been doing? Speak for myself.

[Tim O'Brien]

The Senate doesn't done it. Doesn't do anything. The Senate hasn't done anything. Occasionally, they confirm they rubber stamp some of Trump's appointments. John Thune ostensibly has disagreements with Trump's on various issues. You never know it. He never does anything. So there's no reason to believe that he would actually do anything to promote transparency. This feels like a word game where he's like, well, the DOJ has already released some documents, and I'm for transparency, and I trust the doj. Well, why would you trust the doj When Pam Bondi literally went to Donald Trump, this has been reported and said, your name is in the files. What do you want us to do with it? I mean, like, Pam Bondi's already demonstrated that she has no. There's no reason to trust her. Even people inside MAGA world, the deputy FBI director, Dan Bongino. That's a real sentence. Was like, that Pam Bondi was coming. Covering something up. So I don't, you know, John Thune, I think, is just trying to, you know, survive another day without the. Without the MAGA guillotine. I think.