Bulwark Takes — "Trump Laughs at Being Called 'Fascist'—But We Shouldn't"

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Host: The Bulwark (Sarah Jones, Tim Miller, Katharine Appel, Political Analysts)
Date: November 23, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the political and symbolic fallout of Donald Trump making light of being called "fascist" in a meeting with New York Mayor Zoran Mamdani. The Bulwark team—Sarah Jones, Tim Miller, Katharine Appel, and various political commentators—discuss the implications of Trump's rhetoric, the dynamics of his recent meetings, the departure of Marjorie Taylor Greene from Congress, and the ongoing intrigue over the forthcoming Epstein files.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Zoran Trump Meeting: Why It Mattered

• Strategic Moves:
  Katharine Appel opens the main section reflecting on the high-profile meeting between Trump and NYC’s new mayor, Zoran Mamdani. She supports Zoran’s pragmatic approach to engaging with Trump, considering his immediate need to maintain leverage as a new mayor.

  "I think what Zoran did made a lot of sense strategically...as a mayor of New York who needs to work with Trump and who has his own juice right now." — Katharine Appel [00:43]

• Concerns Over Trump's "Fascist" Joke:
  Appel is troubled by Trump jokingly inviting people to call him a fascist, emphasizing the dangerous trivialization of democratic values.

  "To just joke about it and just be like, hey, I’m a fascist. Ha ha ha...To me, that sounds a bad sign. It sends a bad sign to the world and it makes the whole thing feel fake." — Katharine Appel [01:32]

• Perception of American Democracy:
  She worries such jokes erode public trust and make the government appear performative or “a big reality TV show.”

  "It makes everybody think that we're just playing pretend and this is just a big reality TV show. And there's not actually any weight to the system of government." — Katharine Appel [01:55]

2. Trump and Mamdani: Populism, Bromance, and Realpolitik

• Queens Connection and Trump’s Motives:
  The host suggests Trump’s fondness for winners, central casting characters—and underdog stories like Mamdani's—contribute to the easy rapport.

  "Donald Trump loves winners. He likes to be around other stars, people who he perceives as...central casting. Zaramdani certainly fits that." — Host [03:20]

• Trump’s Desire to Be Liked:
  Sarah Jones reads Trump’s desire for likability as a consistent background factor in his political relationships, cautioning against over-interpretation.

  "He wants to be liked. It’s hard, I think, for some people to understand because he seems so unlikable in so many ways. But interpersonally, you hear this often when people go meet him." — Sarah Jones [04:00]

• Populist Unity Skepticism:
  Jones is wary of the narrative that the meeting represents a true populist left-right coalition; she pushes back on progressive hopes for enduring cross-aisle unity.

  "Let's dial it back. I'm down to got one other substantive thing out of this, I would say..." — Sarah Jones [05:12]

• Impact on New York Elites:
  Trump’s declaration that he’d stay in New York, despite Mamdani’s election, helps debunk fears and neutralize class-based attacks.

  "Trump was asked that question, and Trump said, no, I'd stay in New York...That really takes the teeth out of that hit on Mamdani." — Sarah Jones [05:10]

3. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Departure: Populist Shake-up

• Unexpected Fallout:
  Marjorie Taylor Greene, once Trump’s ardent supporter, is “banished” after opposing him on the Epstein issue. Panelists assess her motives, including potential personal security concerns and burnout.

  "I really, it's hard to fathom because at one she just beat Trump. She just brought Trump to heel on this big Epstein fight." — Sarah Jones [06:20]

• Speculation Around Her ‘Awakening’:
  Tim Miller suggests Greene’s D.C. experience may have “deprogrammed” her, exposing the incompetence behind conspiracy narratives.

  "What if...she like got to D.C. and realized the conspiracy theories cannot hold because people are too incompetent." — Tim Miller [07:27]

• Greene’s Right-Wing Populism:
  Jones highlights Greene as the rare Republican advancing a substantive right-wing populist policy critique of Trump.

  "She was starting to offer that critique. And I’m curious if that critique could work because nobody's ever really tried it within the Republican Party." — Sarah Jones [09:44]

4. Epstein Files: Transparency and Endless Suspicion

• Demands for Full Disclosure:
  Bipartisan pressure mounts as DOJ faces a December 19 deadline to release Epstein files. Panelists debate legitimate versus excessive redactions, especially regarding classified material and protection of victims.

  "I don't understand why there would be a lot of redactions...Jeffrey Epstein was private." — Sarah Jones [10:50]

• Will Conspiracy Theories Ever End?
  Tim Miller notes that no matter what is released, the public’s appetite for intrigue is likely insatiable.

  "Will there ever be an end to this? Like, is there any release that would, say, satiate the mobs who have been following?" — Tim Miller [12:02]

• Potential Impact on Trump:
  Jones posits that mounting evidence of Trump aligning with elites—from Epstein to policy choices—could damage his support among his working-class base more than salacious liaisons.

  "There was this storm of things that was happening that showed that Donald Trump was on the side of rich elites and not on the side of the regular people." — Sarah Jones [13:48]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Democracy and Rhetoric

"The fact that we are a republic, the oldest running democracy in the world, is something that is important and meaningful...And to just joke about it...to me, that sounds a bad sign." — Katharine Appel [01:32]

On Populism and Political Shifts

"She was offering like a policy program that would match the populist rhetoric. And I’m interested, I think that could possibly work." — Sarah Jones [09:44]

On Public Trust and Conspiracies

"Will there ever be an end to this? Like, is there any release that would, say, satiate the mobs who have been following?" — Tim Miller [12:02]

Key Timestamps

• 00:43 — Katharine Appel discusses the Zoran/Trump meeting and what stood out
• 01:32 — Appel spotlights the dangers of joking about fascism in American politics
• 03:20 — The host details why Trump and Mamdani got along
• 04:00 — Sarah Jones on Trump’s need for likability and the limits of the new “populist” bromance
• 05:10 — Trump’s comments defang New York elite anxiety over Mamdani
• 06:20 — Marjorie Taylor Greene’s surprising exit and possible motivations
• 07:27 — Tim Miller’s theory on “deprogramming” conspiracy-minded politicians in D.C.
• 09:44 — Discussion on true right-wing populism within the GOP
• 10:26 — Countdown to DOJ’s Epstein files release and transparency worries
• 12:02 — Miller on the endless cycle of conspiracy and suspicion
• 13:48 — Sarah Jones ties Trump’s elite associations to political vulnerability

Episode Tone

Conversational, wry, and analytical—mixing humor with frustration about the absurdities of contemporary politics. The panelists are candid about their doubts and concerns but also grounded in political pragmatism.

Summary Note: This episode is essential listening for anyone wishing to understand the subtle (and not-so-subtle) shifts in political rhetoric, the gravity of how we discuss democracy, and why conspiracy-fueled atmospherics continue to shape American politics. The Bulwark team’s critical yet accessible style guides listeners through the day’s political arch without glossing over its troubling undertones.